Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

AJ seems like someone who could move some major merchandise.

It's at least possible, but I wonder whether that possibility/the reaction last night will change the presumed "Balor Club" plans.

There's such a ready made storyline there (from Balor Club to AJ breaking away to be a singles guy, etc) but I wonder whether the time it would take to pull it off might kill his individual momentum.

So many pieces on that roster right now, so many good matches that have already happened in the past.

[PilotMan]

I couldn't believe how much Reigns was shit on after he came back out. My son totally loves him, so by that standard the WWE does something right. I think his crowd reaction really hurt the overall feel of the Rumble.

I also felt like they totally missed the chance to set up Lesnar/Wyatt again. After Lesnar got taken out it only made sense to have him storm back in and kick the everloving shit out of Bray and get him eliminated too.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

AJ seems like someone who could move some major merchandise.

WWE AJ Styles Merchandise Is Already Sold Out

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I also felt like they totally missed the chance to set up Lesnar/Wyatt again. After Lesnar got taken out it only made sense to have him storm back in and kick the everloving shit out of Bray and get him eliminated too.

There were several glaring plot holes/missed opportunities during the Rumble.

1) Since a point was made about the Rumble being no DQ then why doesn't The Wyatt Family (or League Of Nations) simply stick around & clear the damned ring?

2) Why did they eliminate the entire Family before Bray's entrance? If you don't want to do 4 vs Brock then fine, but if you're going to have Brock clear out the whole family then why not at least have him eliminate the last member while Bray is en route to the ring?

3) Why did Jericho attack (some face) that was beating up Harper in the corner at one point? It looked like an outright save the way it was done. (And why not have commentary at least mention that it was a surprising choice of targets?). He later also opted to attack another face instead of going after Harper. Can't really see Y2J as a Wyatt Family member so where was the rationale? I get that it's every man for himself but unprovoked face/face when there are heel options aren't really the norm that I recall.

It wasn't all entirely shit of course. Having Owens dump AJ (complete with a "Welcome to the WWE" taunt) was a nice touch that seemed downright smart. And I absolutely love the way they acknowledge the Zayn/Owens history, something they've gotten better about (a Styles Clash tease within a matter of seconds for example). Even the stupid Ron Killings spot was entertaining, as was The New Day save.

But it really felt at times like different guys had completely different road agents to set things up for them, with varied rationales in play instead of having a consistent flow during the Rumble.

-----
Speaking of The New Day save, how did the elimination actually occur? I must have blinked & missed it. That cried out for a lawn dart spot to topple Kofi but if they did it then I missed it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Speaking of The New Day save, how did the elimination actually occur? I must have blinked & missed it. That cried out for a lawn dart spot to topple Kofi but if they did it then I missed it.

It wasn't shown because they were busy on Roman Reigns for 10 minutes.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

There were several glaring plot holes/missed opportunities during the Rumble.

1) Since a point was made about the Rumble being no DQ then why doesn't The Wyatt Family (or League Of Nations) simply stick around & clear the damned ring?

2) Why did they eliminate the entire Family before Bray's entrance? If you don't want to do 4 vs Brock then fine, but if you're going to have Brock clear out the whole family then why not at least have him eliminate the last member while Bray is en route to the ring?

3) Why did Jericho attack (some face) that was beating up Harper in the corner at one point? It looked like an outright save the way it was done. (And why not have commentary at least mention that it was a surprising choice of targets?). He later also opted to attack another face instead of going after Harper. Can't really see Y2J as a Wyatt Family member so where was the rationale? I get that it's every man for himself but unprovoked face/face when there are heel options aren't really the norm that I recall.

It wasn't all entirely shit of course. Having Owens dump AJ (complete with a "Welcome to the WWE" taunt) was a nice touch that seemed downright smart. And I absolutely love the way they acknowledge the Zayn/Owens history, something they've gotten better about (a Styles Clash tease within a matter of seconds for example). Even the stupid Ron Killings spot was entertaining, as was The New Day save.

But it really felt at times like different guys had completely different road agents to set things up for them, with varied rationales in play instead of having a consistent flow during the Rumble.

-----
Speaking of The New Day save, how did the elimination actually occur? I must have blinked & missed it. That cried out for a lawn dart spot to topple Kofi but if they did it then I missed it.

1) Because heels are dumb? I got nothing here.

2) To make you forget that they had been eliminated? Most people don't spend a ton of time watching the guys on the floor walk back to the back so it was possible to forget that they were still around the ring. Also we didn't have to see Brock pull a Super Cena and eliminate all 4 in 30 seconds. Honestly the only one I saw was Harper. No clue how long Rowan sat outside the ring but there was enough action to distract me from watching him go to the back.

3) Is Jericho really a face? He seems to love the tweener line. I mean why would 3 faces (AJ, Reigns and Jericho) fight each other if that was the line. It seems like they should have just waited for the next heel to come and all gang up on him in true heel/face.

New Day) They showed the replay later when Kofi got taken out by Jericho (I think). I couldn't figure out why there was a We Want Popcorn chant but then remember Big E with spilled popcorn happening when Kofi got knocked out.

[murrayyyyy]

Rumble thoughts:

1) Too predictable. I think everyone knew the ending which is bad for the WWE but great for smarks. I liken it to 30-40 year old white guys talking about when the NBA was "good" in their day and it's complete shit now. Those same guys are the ones who attend PPVs while RAWs are soccer moms and kids.

2) Production value was horrible. Did they leave a camera crew in Conn and they got snowed in so went with NXT guys who aren't that good because it's highly edited?

3) I actually enjoyed the show minus one aspect. The order of the Rumble was set up pretty well with some guys having multiple story lines coming out of it. Owens will be interesting (either Ambrose or Zayn) so it's the gold or the hate. Lesnar can pick a Buzzard. Reigns has his version of Dante's Inferno to get to Trips now with all 4 Alliance members over the next 70 days.

As for my biggest negative. Why have a tag team win if both guys get kicked out in less than 30 seconds each? I understand it filled up the show but they could have given that time slot to Divas or #1 tag title contender match since Usos v New Day is the new Orton-Sheamus.

4) WWE finally got their Southern star that they've been missing for a while. Thought it was going to be Storm but I think the WWE went a long way last night by not burying the Southern guy like they have since 1990. Maybe it's just high hopes on my side but it will be nice if they give non-WWE vets a chance but it seems like there is going to be a TNA/ROH guys get the shit kicked out of them story line in the making with Aries/AJ/Joe now

[molson]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

2) Production value was horrible. Did they leave a camera crew in Conn and they got snowed in so went with NXT guys who aren't that good because it's highly edited?

I don't about the NXT part, but I did read that a good chunk of the regular production crew got snowed in and couldn't get to the show.

[Suicane75]

It's not "production", it's that Kevin Dunn is a shitty director.

[Mota]

Why do I have a feeling that AJ Styles is putting over someone in 3 minutes tonight just as a reminder that he's lucky to be here instead of that minor league? I mean, gotta keep him humble, right?

[CU Tiger]

Styles Jerico was actually quite entertaining and got a double segment to show off....

[Mota]

Well I'll admit that I was completely wrong. That was a pretty good match! They've managed to build Styles into a WWE star in 2 nights.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

4) WWE finally got their Southern star that they've been missing for a while.

If they're going to play the Southern angle with AJ then they'll have to build it (note: I did not see tonight's Raw so that may have already happened for all I know)

I'd say he's much more appealing for the ROH/Japan fans than for traditional Southern. TNA never really caught on very well outside of maybe Nashville & Orlando while the ROH house show here over the weekend seemed to draw well & likely sold more tickets than TNA was even able to give away for similar.

Now "draw well" is a relative thing, and maybe it was heavily papered too but for my kid said the crowd looked solid (he was at an ECHL game in the building next door, choosing it due to the relatively lackluster matchups ROH went with)

[Neuqua]

I thought the Rock segment was fantastic last night, really entertaining.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If they're going to play the Southern angle with AJ then they'll have to build it (note: I did not see tonight's Raw so that may have already happened for all I know)

I'd say he's much more appealing for the ROH/Japan fans than for traditional Southern. TNA never really caught on very well outside of maybe Nashville & Orlando while the ROH house show here over the weekend seemed to draw well & likely sold more tickets than TNA was even able to give away for similar.

Now "draw well" is a relative thing, and maybe it was heavily papered too but for my kid said the crowd looked solid (he was at an ECHL game in the building next door, choosing it due to the relatively lackluster matchups ROH went with)

After watching RAW I picked up the words southern, country and redneck in the song so I'm pretty sure they are going to build him as the tiny southern guy. They used a down angle on him when out with Jericho making Jericho look taller. AJ's not tall to begin with but I wouldn't be shocked to see him in matches with the shorter guys like Jericho and Dolph for a while.

And I still think more eyes saw him in TNA than ROH/Japan combined since ROH comes on at 3 AM on a Saturday and NJPW wasn't on a big station in the US.

As long as we don't go down the Fortune 2.0 road with Flair leading the ex-TNA guys I'll be okay.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

After watching RAW I picked up the words southern, country and redneck in the song so I'm pretty sure they are going to build him as the tiny southern guy. They used a down angle on him when out with Jericho making Jericho look taller. AJ's not tall to begin with but I wouldn't be shocked to see him in matches with the shorter guys like Jericho and Dolph for a while.

And I still think more eyes saw him in TNA than ROH/Japan combined since ROH comes on at 3 AM on a Saturday and NJPW wasn't on a big station in the US.

As long as we don't go down the Fortune 2.0 road with Flair leading the ex-TNA guys I'll be okay.

Here ya go, sure enough the lyrics are there but, ummmm ....

Aj Styles Debut Entrance Monday Night Raw 1.25.2016 - YouTube

"Saw" in TNA nationally doesn't equate to having made any real impression on the mainstream viewer.

My son had a pretty good point -- weird for an NWA-Anarchy follower to consider -- that more people probably know who Austin "Xavier Woods" Creed is than could name AJ. Sad, but probably not far from accurate either.

[Suicane75]

Looks like Takeover Dallas will feature Balor/Joe II, Zayn Vs Nakamura & Asuka/Bayley. They oughta just switch switch that show with WM.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Surgery for prostate cancer scheduled in the next few days :/

WWE Hall of Famer Bret ‘Hit Man’ Hart reveals cancer diagnosis | WWE.com

[SirFozzie]

you guys need to watch Lucha Underground. Season 2 just started last week, and boy did they not hold back.

[Suicane75]

Muertes Vs Pentagon has me more excited than anything being done in North America right now.

[SirFozzie]

Oh, and Season 3 of Lucha Underground has already been ordered.

[IlliniCub]

I think it's the intergender stuff that turned me off of Lucha Underground for whatever reason. I watched the first episode, I need to try again.

[murrayyyyy]

Is Season 2 somewhere besides El Rey? It use to be on Una Mas and it didn't bother me being in Spanish but I couldn't find it on their schedule this year.

[SirFozzie]

Unfortunately, your options are El Rey, or youtube (or dodgy download sites, but you probably know that).

If you don't like intergender stuff, I don't know if you should watch Lucha Underground Episode 1 season 2.

[JonInMiddleGA]

AXL ROTTEN PASSES AWAY | PWInsider.com

[Flasch186]

One episode of Lucha and I'm hooked. Awesome stuff. Jeez could they give WWE a lesson

[Suicane75]

If season 2, episode 1 is what you watched, and you liked it, you owe it to yourself to try and get a hold of season 1 and watch it. The storytelling is fantastic.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

One episode of Lucha and I'm hooked. Awesome stuff. Jeez could they give WWE a lesson

As much as I love LU it's not really the same thing just because the wwe has to fill so many hours of content a week. Now as much as everyone loves NXT, I think LU could teach NXT a few things.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Styles vs Jericho 2 next week.

{sniff} {sniff} Is that a turn I smell?

[Flasch186]

If season 2, episode 1 is what you watched, and you liked it, you owe it to yourself to try and get a hold of season 1 and watch it. The storytelling is fantastic.
where on a TV could I find that our would it only be YouTube?

[SirFozzie]

There's no DVD box set, so yeah, YouTube, or dodgy download sites again.. I don't know if any one other than El Rey is airing season 1 repeats.

[murrayyyyy]

Lit of every episode from reddit.
Every episode of Lucha Underground : SquaredCircle

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Lit of every episode from reddit.
Every episode of Lucha Underground : SquaredCircle

That's awesome, but every single one of those links is dead. Daily Motion must have gotten a well worded C&D letter.

[molson]

Daniel Bryan on Twitter: "Due to medical reasons, effective immediately, I am announcing my retirement. Tonight on Raw, I'll have a chance to elaborate. #gratitude"

Edit: It will be interesting to see if he talks openly about the concussion issue, considering the WWE's recent policy (due to ongoing litigation, I think), not to disclose any concussion info regarding workers. It wasn't even reported that Bryan suffered a concussion until months after the fact, and I still don't think the WWE has ever officially acknowledged the nature of the injury.

And this after the reports this week about Bryan trying to get his release from his contract so he could work somewhere else. I'm guessing he came to some kind of agreement with the WWE about his post-wrestling life. Like maybe they're guaranteeing him more money than his downside guarantee to move permanently into a legend's contract/non-wrestling role.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by molson

And this after the reports this week about Bryan trying to get his release from his contract so he could work somewhere else. I'm guessing he came to some kind of agreement with the WWE about his post-wrestling life. Like maybe they're guaranteeing him more money than his downside guarantee to move permanently into a legend's contract/non-wrestling role.

If Bryan moves on to being part of the announcement team I guess he would have to end up on Smackdown and they would move Ranallo to RAW. That would suck as Ranallo/Lawler seem to be working well on Smackdown while any matchup of guys on RAW seems to be screwed by JBL and Byron being involved.

[Toddzilla]

Wow, and coincidentally, WWE is is Danielson's home town (sort of) tonight, so he's get a hero's sendoff.

[jbergey22]

WWE is a hurting unit. This loss really will hurt the bottom line. Time for the WWE to expand their own business into a territory era so they can build stars instead of force stars.

[RainMaker]

I just don't think WWE wants him back. I still doubt they are holding him back for medical reasons. He's been cleared by a number of neurologists.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just a quick c&p from my social media comments:

I never saw a bad match featuring The American Dragon, never failed to marvel at the possibility that I might indeed be watching the very best in the world at what he does. He was the go-to guy to pair against every company's best and he brought it every single night.

Pro wrestling is entertainment, and it's about performance. There are few in my lifetime who have used the latter to provide the former more effectively & more consistently.

edit to add: ran across this top-10-pre-WWE list and while I might rank them a little differently in places, it's not a bad list at all. vs Nigel, and vs KENTA ... damn those matches were something.

http://whatculture.com/wwe/10-best-p...matches.php/11

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Here's the video if anyone wants to watch it.

"Maybe My Brain Wasn't As OK As I Thought It Was": Daniel Bryan Explains Concussions-Driven Retirement On WWE Raw

[molson]

Bryan said on an interview with ESPN that he's been having seizures and that the most recent tests revealed brain lesions.

Meltzer has talked about this new testing for a few months. It picks up damage to the brain that can't be revealed by traditional concussion testing. Basically, your brain is really good at bypassing damaged areas until they heal. So the traditional concussion protocol won't pick up that damage because your memory and cognition are fine, but the new testing will.

You have to wonder - what happens when every wrestler, football player, etc, takes this testing? Do they all have brain damage? Does everyone with an active lifestyle who has been bonked in the head have some kind of brain damage? CTE in a scary concept, but if literally every athlete has it (and they've found it 99% of athlete brains - albeit brains that were sent to them for some reason, so it's not a representative sample) - is it just an inevitable part of being an athlete or having an active lifestyle?

What do we do with this information? Do we shut down contact sports that cause this damage, or do we accept that some degree of brain damage is inevitable and can be worked around through the brain's own defense mechanisms, and through a greater awareness of the need to limit head trauma and to allow athletes to heal after brain injuries? Obviously for decades and decades we've accepted the consequences of being "knocked out" as something inevitable that comes with hard hitting sports. What the hell did we think being "knocked out" was if not an injury to the brain? It's amazing how that little acronym has been such a huge game changer - we've accepted some risk of brain injury, the concept of being "punch drunk" and forgetful in your old age, stuff we've known about forever, but now, societal acceptance is changing, in large part due to those three letters.

Also, Titus O'Neil has been indefinitely suspended for playfully pushing Vince McMahon near the end of Bryan's retirement speech when everyone was walking away. I mean, in most businesses, you're not going to shove the 70-year CEO, but this is kind of weird for it to be a big deal in this context.

Edit: This is the entire incident with O'Neil and Vince. Apparently the suspension is for 90 days.

https://gfycat.com/PreciousYearlyErne

[Toddzilla]

note Stephanie and Hunter were smiling and laughing about Titus and Vince.

edit - Vince was smiling, too. so WTF?

[RainMaker]

Daniel Bryan vs. Sheamus: SmackDown, April 2, 2015 - YouTube

This is his last match. Disturbing in retrospect because it almost looks like he has a seizure on the floor. Starts at 2:00 mark.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well dang

One of the earliest wrestling sites that I recall.

CANOE -- SLAM! Sports - Wrestling - Mat Matters Editorials : Mark Nulty, host of Wrestling Classics, dies

[Suicane75]

Omega/Tanahashi from last night was effing amazing.

[Suicane75]

Anyone here a Chikara fan? I usually go in and out of watching it but the angles are usually too intricate for me to follow when I'm not watching intently, but I just watched the season 15 finale and thought it was super.

[Suicane75]

My most favoritest spot ever.

[molson]

Two kind of weird WWE news tidbits

The WWE will run a 32-man "WWE Global Cruiserweight Series" tournament that will air on the Network starting in June. It will be all non-roster guys, though I imagine they'll make a deal with whoever they book to win. HHH said he's open to working with any indy promotions to facilitate bringing in the best guys (but there probably won't be any New Japan workers). He did meet with Lucha Underground sometime recently.

I really like HHH's vision of the company that you're seeing come through in NXT - the WWE as the dominant global wrestling brand that guys from around the world can pass through here and there, some on long-term exclusive deals, some for short-term non-exclusive deals, some guys without contracts at all like Gargano and Ciampa. I hope we that element on the main roster eventually.

And Meltzer has reported that the WWE has decided on the Undertaker's Wrestlemania opponent. The source wouldn't identify the opponent specifically, but said it was someone who is not an active WWE or NXT wrestler, and is not a roster guy who is currently out injured. I don't know if all that would include Sting, but I can't imagine they'd put him back in the ring, as safety-conscious as they are now. I'm not sure what big names are still out there - Goldberg? Austin? Or maybe it's one of those old-school deals where they create a brand new monster character to get squashed. Or I guess the Rock is always a possibility, though apparently there was issues with his last match screwing up the filming schedule for Hercules after he got injured.

[Suicane75]

I'd love for it to be Nakamura, but seeing as how he's scheduled for NXT the night before, I highly doubt it's him.

[jbergey22]

CM Punks chance to main event WM? Interesting by Meltzer.