Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[Toddzilla]

Good god it was great to see some fresh faces.

[Mota]

Enzo and Cass did fantastic. They brought so much energy to that show. Enzo's got a fire that no one on the roster has. They didn't just fit in, I think they led.

Apollo Cruise is an amazing athlete. The fact that he got called up is baffling though, because he was a guy that couldn't put all the skills together in a complete package on NXT.

Baron Corbin is brutal. Other than being big, he's got very little going for him. Again, he was a guy that was having a tough time seperating from the pack in NXT, he was below average there. How is he expected to do well on the main roster? Oh yeah, he's big.

I did love to see things shaken up on the main roster though. THey were able to feature a ton of new talent, which is great. The show didn't suffer either, I think it was made better for it.

[Suicane75]

Corbins an odd duck. He's got a really awesome character if they let him be himself, but they wont, and his work is average. So of course they book him to do a 10 minute double count out after reciting shitty dialog.

Enzo has a chance to be something special. Like, realllly special.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Enzo has a chance to be something special. Like, realllly special.

Or he ends up as somebody's mouthpiece.

I agree with you that he's got something potentially special. I'm just not sure what role that will end up utilized in.

[Ryche]

I like Enzo and Cass, they're ready. Apollo is still way too raw despite his amazing athleticism. And Corbin would be best served acting as someone's Diesel currently.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Or he ends up as somebody's mouthpiece.

I agree with you that he's got something potentially special. I'm just not sure what role that will end up utilized in.

He's small, so that works against him, but he is tight with HHH, so I would not be shocked to see them give him a shot. He's got the aura of a legit insane ass kicker. If they give him a chance I think the sky's the limit, of course they could have Cass turn on him in 6 months and become an afterthought. I really hope they plan on bringing Carmella up soon to complete the act.

[IlliniCub]

Or Vince says hmm that little guy can talk. Then next week on Raw we get I'm Enzo Amore blah blah blah " And this here is Roman Reigns and he's hot as hell and the greatest world champion on all time and you can't teach that!"

[Neuqua]

Looks like David Shoemaker is leaving ESPN and joining Bill Simmons at The Ringer.

Good move for everyone involved I feel like, though I will miss the Cheap Heat podcasts.

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by Neuqua

Looks like David Shoemaker is leaving ESPN and joining Bill Simmons at The Ringer.

Good move for everyone involved I feel like, though I will miss the Cheap Heat podcasts.

Hopefully Shoemaker, Rosenberg and Greg the Virg do a new podcast, although I'm not sure I see it with Rosenberg also committed to some other ESPN ventures.

[murrayyyyy]

Recap of my Mania weekend.

Me and the 6 year old flew out Friday from Vegas and flew into Love just because I figured DFW would be nuts. Love wasn't bad at all. Got rental in 5 mins and was off to a friend's house for the weekend (so no hotel to worry about). Traffic wasn't bad as he lives east of DAL out by White Rock Lake (for those who know the area). Dinner and watched NXT. NXT show was great but I'm not sure he would have known that many wrestlers in it.

Sat played by ear. Went to the Wrestlemania store @ Hutchinson Center. Access was here also. Had been advertised as sold out but you could buy tickets there. Passed on Access and did the store (both were connected). Store was fine except that there was literally no one to help on the sales floor and I'm not sure they ever restocked. I figured hitting it up in the morning was best as they could fill overnight but looked like that never happened with any apparel. He got a Shane McMahon shirt as that's the match he was excited about and bunch of little items. Access sounded like a train wreck in the store and a temp wall is all that separated the two. No one walking out of Access sounded like they enjoyed it because of a lack of organization inside.

Hit up a Rangers game that afternoon. I expected more WWE fans there but you would hear random wrestling chants during the game. It was a good time filler. Seat jumped the entire game from the top of the stadium to the Ranger's pen.

Sunday 5 AM. He wakes up and decides it's time to go. Worried now because I figure he won't make it the whole day. Says the gates will open @ 3 so decided to leave 1:15 because there will obviously be traffic/idiots on the road. Make it to AT&T by 1:30... So we've got an hour and a half to kill... We are in a line and the stadium breaks off an overflow and we are maybe 20 back now in our 1 of 6 lines. The stadium's wifi is down and we don't get in until 3:45ish.

Now our tickets. I was invited by the Cowboys to stay in their suite. Problem is that no one in the arena knew how to get to them. Every level we were told to go up one more level. Even at the top level of the stadium, I was told to go to the end and go up one more level. Finally decided to quit asking people at every gate/escalator entrance and asked information. I had to go to to an elevator the entire time. Suites are nice. Probably 20 leather chairs then a row for people to sit at bars behind there. Catered, private bathroom, etc... Examine the spot as it's us and 2 other people there.

The USA Network matches: Arena might have been 10% full when the Ryback-Kalisto match was going. Pretty good match with some missed spots but it probably got the most pops/entertainment out of the 3 matches. Disappointed it didn't end the USA show since it got the best reactions and Kalisto is the kid's favorite wrestler (so we will need some surprises). The 10 women's tag match was predictable but as much as Eve got booed, she wasn't the one missing spots. It was what you'd expect with 10 women all trying to hit a spot in the same match and it did entertain the women in the suite. I had told Brayden it would probably be the last match for a few people tonight and the Bella would win. He stared me down in amazement as it came true. Nice moment with the Bella's and what I assume was their mom but not sure it was on TV. Next was Uso's-Dudley's and I've seen this 500 times already so we hit the souvenir store. Great job here minus nothing for kids really (Cena, Mania or Mania). Lines were quick.

Video packages so far. Roman is getting the most heat followed by Charlotte. I can tell that the Reigns match will be horrible because of the crowd. My hate for IWC (internet wrestling community) is starting to build as it's obvious they will hijack everything today. Also the star stage changes with every wrestler that comes out. Thought that was a really nice touch and not sure how much they showed on TV.

First match is the 7 man ladder match and they had to start of with to get the crowd into it. For those that complain about story line they must have forgotten about this match. You get a guy (transitional champion) to win the match that no one expected. You get the belt off Kevin Owens so he can go to main event level. Zayne-Owens feud, Miz-Ryder. Once Ryder won the title you knew it was going to be a strange night. The match was full of spots and served it's purpose as now those not into wrestling are in shock by people being broken over ladders or the spots they were taking. I think there were 5 people in the suite who liked wrestling and the 10 year old girl behind me was gasping the entire time not believing anyone would do any of this on purpose.

Jericho-Styles seemed to go on a bit too long. You forget all the BS that you see on TV as filler as we can't hear the announcers or any vignettes that I assume are on TV. Maybe that's why I was enjoying the show. Little shocked AJ lost but it made more sense the next night. Once again, story line here but no immediate pay off at Mania. Match was okay but it was also time to hit the buffet because I knew there would be no major spots from Jericho. There seems to be a big box of cereal coming up through the stage during the middle of the match. Guess New Day is coming out next.

New Day didn't disappoint with their entrance. This was the thing I wanted to see at the show. This is your New Age Outlaws of today. Everyone in the suite stares at Brayden in amazement as he goes word for word with Big E. When the belts weren't on the line you knew that New Day would take the loss for a reason. League of Nations wins so Barrett starts talking and you see the cameras going up the ramp (so someone is coming, right?) Then Shawn Michael music hit and I immediately think "Why the F' does Shawn Michael's have his wrestling gear on". Then Mick Foley's (or Mankind) music hits and he's in his full outfit. Well obviously being in Texas, you know what's coming next. The biggest pop of the night. Glass shatters and I'm not sure I will ever hear a pop like that from a crowd again...ever. Top of the night for the teenager in me and a few others in the suite who aren't current wrestling fans as they knew these guys. (fuck you IWC for complaining about this part). You know what, for everyone complaining about it being no story line, the biggest pop of the night shouldn't be a fat guy who is in jeans and a tee to hide how bad he was being out of shape... Next has to be the battle royal...

It's Brock Lesnar-Dean Ambrose. Personally I'm confused as this is your biggest name (Brock) for the casual fan. I'm worried that the match will suck now being this low on the card. I'm not an Ambrose fan and scoreboard is instructing you how to react (a number for every suplex) and it was happening for New Day chants to start in the crowd in the match before. It was what I expected personally (maybe it was better on TV). Maybe I expected more from a no holds barred street fight. No blood. No crazy weapons. A kendo stick, and chairs... This match seemed to take the air out of the arena. Don't get me wrong, impossible for anyone to follow Stone Cold but they did nothing to even try.

And the air was gone even more with the Hall of Fame people although Sting brought it back. (internal thought, my 6 year old saw Sting, Stone Cold, Shawn Michaels, Mankind all within 20 mins in person, holy crap)

Charlotte, Becky Lynch and Sasha Banks triple threat match. Oh crap, and Snoop Dogg to the Brayden's list as he is performing Sasha's entrance. For all the love Sasha gets, I felt she was the sloppiest in the match. With them dropping the "Divas" name for women's champion you have to put the belt on Charlotte because of her dad (Ric Flair). I'd have no complaint if she dropped it after Mania but now wasn't the time. Becky probably deserves it based off skills on the roster right now. All the women in the suite were impressed by the trio and felt it was the best match of the night. (IWC boos as usual). I might say it's the best women's Mania match ever thinking off the top of my head.

I'm thinking holy shit, this has gone long and I get a text "Did I miss the Battle Royal?" Completely forgot about it. Well the Cell starts lowering for the ring.

Brayden is in full dance mode now (Shane McMahon does a dance every time he comes out). Undertaker has shorter entrance than Shane I think and underwhelming considering how many more does Taker have left in him. The match is way too long... and way too slow... Don't get me wrong, it was all about the spot that everyone knew would be coming but it felt like a McMahon trying to get as much face time as he could. They focused on Taker's reaction to Shane so I figure it is a storyline shot (nothing came of it...yet). But once again, the past hour is 25 years of WWE minus a few people.

Brayden is depressed but demands he gets his Cena shirt now so he can put it on. I had convinced him that Cena would not miss Mania at the concession stand earlier and he had to have his Cena shirt on when he came out. I'm thinking that Cena better be in the Battle Royal or I screwed the pooch on this one.

Group of 14? guys walk to the stage unannounced. So you figure 6 guys are getting theme entrances. I forget the order. Mark Henry was first with Kane next (yes I could feel the heat in the suite when his flames came up from the stage). Then DDP?!?! Diamond Dallas Page! Brayden was marking out again as he's only seen him in video games. Big Show...eh... and then another shock. Shaquille O'Neal! Two guys I would have never suspected. Match was okay and I got a chuckle seeing Tanaka in there (no clue he was there). Corbin wins which was a shock I guess. I really thought it would be Henry in Texas(another I assume was in his last match). Shaq and Big Show "fought". It was an average pop match and ended up being a pretty boring match with the end as people were looking to fall out.

Once again I've been distracted by a metal sign that says Rock now on the stage and I'm thinking, shit it's reallllllly late. Cowgirl cheerleaders come out. Eh... then the Rock comes out and talked for what seemed like 45 mins. Thought he had a t-shirt gun but it ended up being a flame thrower. Announces records crowd, etc... Jesus will someone shut him up... Then the lights go out (Wyatt's entrance) and I'm like thank god. Someone kill the Rock already. Rock has an impromptu 6 second match versus one of the Wyatt's. They get pissed surround the ring and I can only think of one person who can come save the Rock. Cena's music hits and I look like a genius now... It's Brayden's 3rd attempt to see Cena and he was "injured" for both shows he had been to so another check mark for him.

Jesus, I'm tired. So Steph and HHH do their big look at us ceremony, Reigns comes out to a shit ton of boos. Two mins into the match Brayden looks at me and says "Do we have to watch this". Fuck nooooooo. We leave the Arena and get home in 12 mins instead of waiting for 95k to leave in what will seem like a nasty angry crowd when Reigns wins (which he does).

Now for everyone who says it was a ho-hum show I have this long winded rebuttal recap. Sure it wasn't a story line Mania as it was a historical mania with attendance and people involved.

In one show we saw:
1) Ryback military press a guy up the steps and throw him in the ring and hit a Michinoku Driver.-Kalisto hit Salina del Sol.
2) Too many Divas got their spot with Paige leap being the most memorable probably.
3) Dudleys-Uso can't tell ya.
4) Zayn leaped through a ladder and Ko'ed KO on the ladder.-Sin Cara jumped ladder to rope to outside. Later put Stardust through a table.-KO took a huge fall on ladder.-Ziggs superkicking everyone-Ryder won
5) Styles 450 splash and Styles Clash-Jericho with codebreaker
6) Double Boom drop and Big E Spear, Bullhammer and Brough kick followed by sweet chin music, Mandable claw and stunners.
7) Brock suplexing a guy
8) Charlotte mooonsault, Lynch Fisherman's suplex off top and leaping on Ric outside of ring, Sasha frog splash to keep match alive. Ric Flair cheating and Snoop Dogg raps with some chick.
9) Shane kicks out of last ride and chokeslam on the steps (bullshit). Hits Van Terminator (kinda), and leaps off the top of the cage after taker lays on table for an hour waiting...
10) Shaq in ring, DDP hitting diamond cutter, debut of Corbin (I guess)
11) Rock Bottom and People's elbow. Attitude adjustment and You can't see me. Return of SuperCena.
12) HHH-Reigns (whatever happened, still don't know so we will assume: HHH pedigree, missed sledgehammer swing, Reigns spear and maybe a Superman punch.

Now if you listed all those things/moves in one card you would think it was a crazy dream but no one can realized how amazing it was that it happened because their storyline was ruined. Isn't Mania the end of the season and post-Mania RAW is the beginning of the next one? So the season ended with 30 years of history all performing in one show.

This is Iverson coming and crossing over Curry, passing to Ewing, kicking it out to Durant who then passed to Bird. Bird pump fakes and threw an alley oop to Jordan who ducked under the goal only to lob to LeBron for the slam and everyone complaining that they didn't like the ending of that play because LeBron sucks. It just seemed impossible for people to enjoy everything that happened until the end so it must suck.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Or he ends up as somebody's mouthpiece.

I agree with you that he's got something potentially special. I'm just not sure what role that will end up utilized in.

Yeah, i don't know that I care if he's in the ring or not, but Enzo just has to be present and on the mic. He was spittin' straight fire on Raw.

And they've been massively over with the WWE crowds so far. This seems impossible to mess up, but Vince will find a way.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

This is Iverson coming and crossing over Curry, passing to Ewing, kicking it out to Durant who then passed to Bird. Bird pump fakes and threw an alley oop to Jordan who ducked under the goal only to lob to LeBron for the slam and everyone complaining that they didn't like the ending of that play because LeBron sucks. It just seemed impossible for people to enjoy everything that happened until the end so it must suck.

I'm glad you and especially your kid had a good time, but Jesus Christ, come on. It was a 7 hour show and everyone hit their spots, not transcendence.

[NobodyHere]

So Fingle didn't dopple?

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I'm glad you and especially your kid had a good time, but Jesus Christ, come on. It was a 7 hour show and everyone hit their spots, not transcendence.

So if it was a 4 hour show then list what got cut? (not off performance but significance to "the story") Probably the best matches.

By no means was it the greatest mania ever. Injuries prevented from ever having a chance but the way people are reacting it was a 7 hour bathroom break. Everyone knew the ending beforehand but felt forced to watch 7 hours to validate a reason to cry? If that's the case then you deserved it.

The show wasn't made with you (or me) in mind. They had a semi legit sports station doing interviews and getting eyes on their show all week. Shaq, rock, cena and stone cold will give them more press and eyes than any NXT call up ever will for the past 4 and next 4 years. Its a fact that IWC can't figure out for some reason. They have us already. Ratings for all tv are down so they have to try to bring new people in or artitude era fans back.

Every sports league does it at their mania from dragging out a 90 year old Ted Williams on a golf cart to having a beaten down Bart Star on a short sleeve shirt to prove he wasn't a pussy. Maybe i can see Russell with his 50 rings again or even jordan 90 times during the national title game. The difference is that the WWE can get thise guys on their court or field while the others can't.

Every mania is a show where everyone hits their spots. This one just had a longer list of more historically significant wrestlers which made it more about enjoying the event than worrying about the storylime for one night (a very long night). I think this mania will be looked at higher in the future when the reality era guys arent at it and you are left with chris jericho/randy orton as your big surprise draw from this era.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

So if it was a 4 hour show then list what got cut? (not off performance but significance to "the story") Probably the best matches.

By no means was it the greatest mania ever. Injuries prevented from ever having a chance but the way people are reacting it was a 7 hour bathroom break. Everyone knew the ending beforehand but felt forced to watch 7 hours to validate a reason to cry? If that's the case then you deserved it.

The show wasn't made with you (or me) in mind. They had a semi legit sports station doing interviews and getting eyes on their show all week. Shaq, rock, cena and stone cold will give them more press and eyes than any NXT call up ever will for the past 4 and next 4 years. Its a fact that IWC can't figure out for some reason. They have us already. Ratings for all tv are down so they have to try to bring new people in or artitude era fans back.

Every sports league does it at their mania from dragging out a 90 year old Ted Williams on a golf cart to having a beaten down Bart Star on a short sleeve shirt to prove he wasn't a pussy. Maybe i can see Russell with his 50 rings again or even jordan 90 times during the national title game. The difference is that the WWE can get thise guys on their court or field while the others can't.

Every mania is a show where everyone hits their spots. This one just had a longer list of more historically significant wrestlers which made it more about enjoying the event than worrying about the storylime for one night (a very long night). I think this mania will be looked at higher in the future when the reality era guys arent at it and you are left with chris jericho/randy orton as your big surprise draw from this era.

Nostalgia acts are great. The difference is that you dont see Ted Williams on the field hitting 450 foot home runs off of Roger Clemens. He adds to the event yet he doesnt participate. Some people still would prefer to think of wrestling as a sport where as things have to make sense or it just takes away the enjoyment. Having 3 guys that havent actively participated in the ring in years just dominate the current WWE TT Champions just makes the the champions look weak, the entire tag division look weak, and makes no sense from the storyline perspective. You cant just throw out the make believe storylines and just pretend they dont exist for the biggest event of the year since they hype the event based on these storylines. The WWE Hall of Fame is for what you mention. Reliving past glory where the characters are in their real life form and storylines are forgotten.

Imagine Bruno Sammartino coming out of the stands in 1998 and beating the crap out of Steve Austin. What would that have accomplished? It would have made Austin and all of the people Austin beat look awful because some 60 year old well past his prime wrestler kicked the crap out of him. Its this type of instant gratification booking that is making the entire roster look bad. Was it worth all the negativity to the Wyatts just to have Rock and Cena completely dominate them? Ughh, it just awful crap like this that makes all these guys look like jokes. Have the Wyatts beating down some jobber after a match and then have Cena/Rock make the save or something that makes any sense at all if they needed them two on the show. They have to live in the past because they are ruining the current wrestlers with this type of Vince Russo booking.

Hogan would sell like crazy in angles to make the fans believe he could lose back in his 80s WWF run. I remember thinking how can he beat Bundy, then it was Andre, then it was of all people Zeus. For all the non selling Hogan did in matches, he sold like crazy in them big angles to make the threat look real. Any threat the WWE tries to present now people will remember how 3 50 year olds just completely embarrassed them and not really get lost in the angle. Lesnar is booked strong and when he comes out its got the big match feel. Fortunately, he is not one of the unlucky ones that gets stuck putting over 55 year olds just to pop the crowd. Some of these guys have been embarrassed so much that they arent a threat at all(Big Show, Mark Henry, Kane, Dolph). It takes some impressively bad booking to make a 450 pounder not seem like a threat at all.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

I think this mania will be looked at higher in the future when the reality era guys arent at it and you are left with chris jericho/randy orton as your big surprise draw from this era.

I'm not sure there's too many WWE guys I'd pop more for 20-30 years from now than Jericho frankly.

Of course that's also based on him being a WCW guy previously. Otherwise, it's Joe & A.J., some of the ROH guys, etc.

And, see, I've had a similar (if less grandiose) moment with my then-9 year old so maybe I get the feeling better than you'd suspect. Bound For Glory 2007. My son was rather awestruck by seeing Sting win a title in person, by seeing the Steiners vs the Dudleys, by seeing a relative unknown from our favorite in person indy debut on a PPV (Consequences Creed aka Austin Creed aka Xavier Woods). And then seeing all his favorites at the time compete on the same show.

And I'd previously driven 5 hours to see Jackie Fargo simply make an appearance ... and he wasn't even a guy that I personally grew up on, I knew his legacy more by history & legend than by personal experience.

I don't think nostalgia pops will change all that much 20 years from now.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

So if it was a 4 hour show then list what got cut? (not off performance but significance to "the story") Probably the best matches.

There were 3 matches significant to the story in the entire show. Shane/Undertaker, which didn't even bring up the "story" contrived as it was, during the show. The Womens 3 way and the main event. Nothing else mattered from a storyline perspective, on account of how shitty the angles and the talent have been booked.

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

By no means was it the greatest mania ever. Injuries prevented from ever having a chance but the way people are reacting it was a 7 hour bathroom break. Everyone knew the ending beforehand but felt forced to watch 7 hours to validate a reason to cry? If that's the case then you deserved it.

I wasn't forced to watch it and I'm not acting like I was. It was a fun day, but it's come to a point where the show is secondary. I watched the show, I'm commenting on, no more, no less. The problem isn't the people who watch and complain, it's the people who don't even bother watching anymore, which is about 10% of their audience each of the past few years.

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

The show wasn't made with you (or me) in mind. They had a semi legit sports station doing interviews and getting eyes on their show all week. Shaq, rock, cena and stone cold will give them more press and eyes than any NXT call up ever will for the past 4 and next 4 years. Its a fact that IWC can't figure out for some reason. They have us already. Ratings for all tv are down so they have to try to bring new people in or artitude era fans back.

Every sports league does it at their mania from dragging out a 90 year old Ted Williams on a golf cart to having a beaten down Bart Star on a short sleeve shirt to prove he wasn't a pussy. Maybe i can see Russell with his 50 rings again or even jordan 90 times during the national title game. The difference is that the WWE can get thise guys on their court or field while the others can't.

Every mania is a show where everyone hits their spots. This one just had a longer list of more historically significant wrestlers which made it more about enjoying the event than worrying about the storylime for one night (a very long night). I think this mania will be looked at higher in the future when the reality era guys arent at it and you are left with chris jericho/randy orton as your big surprise draw from this era.

They have the nostalgia guys on every WM. Last year it was NWO/DX, a few years ago it was Hogan/Rock/Austin. I got no problem with that. The problem, as JB mentioned, is that you had 4 retired guys essentially making 10 of their top stars look like absolute geeks. You have an entire faction of goofs, ready made for that spot, and instead you use 2 segments and 10 guys who are all supposed to be top tier guys. The fact that they are absolutely incapable/unwilling of making legitimate stars is the reason the next generation of nostalgia is going to suck so bad.

Zack Ryder, a guy who hasn't been a regular on TV for 5 years, won the IC title. AJ Styles, the guy who's going to headline the next PPV, lost clean after getting his finisher kicked out of. The Tag Team Champions lost, then the guys who beat them got beat up by a gaggle of 50 year olds, then the tag champs themselves got beat up by a gaggle of 50 year olds. Sasha Banks had Snoop fucking Dog do her entrance live...and then she lost. Shane McMahon was brought up the attic to fall off of a cage because they couldn't think of anything else as a hook to get people to order the show, and then they couldn't even coherently follow through on the storyline. Not even from night one, when the guy doing the blackmailing, agreed to fight THE UNDERTAKER, for no apparent reason that made an sort of logical sense.

Anyone who invested themselves in the storyline aspect of this show, came away completely underwhelmed. And it's not like there were a bunch of 4 star matches to save the day. It was a spectacle, it was an event, but it was not, by any stretch of the imagination, a good show.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Nostalgia acts are great. The difference is that you dont see Ted Williams on the field hitting 450 foot home runs off of Roger Clemens. He adds to the event yet he doesnt participate. Some people still would prefer to think of wrestling as a sport where as things have to make sense or it just takes away the enjoyment. Having 3 guys that havent actively participated in the ring in years just dominate the current WWE TT Champions just makes the the champions look weak, the entire tag division look weak, and makes no sense from the storyline perspective. You cant just throw out the make believe storylines and just pretend they dont exist for the biggest event of the year since they hype the event based on these storylines. The WWE Hall of Fame is for what you mention. Reliving past glory where the characters are in their real life form and storylines are forgotten.

Imagine Bruno Sammartino coming out of the stands in 1998 and beating the crap out of Steve Austin. What would that have accomplished? It would have made Austin and all of the people Austin beat look awful because some 60 year old well past his prime wrestler kicked the crap out of him. Its this type of instant gratification booking that is making the entire roster look bad. Was it worth all the negativity to the Wyatts just to have Rock and Cena completely dominate them? Ughh, it just awful crap like this that makes all these guys look like jokes. Have the Wyatts beating down some jobber after a match and then have Cena/Rock make the save or something that makes any sense at all if they needed them two on the show. They have to live in the past because they are ruining the current wrestlers with this type of Vince Russo booking.

Hogan would sell like crazy in angles to make the fans believe he could lose back in his 80s WWF run. I remember thinking how can he beat Bundy, then it was Andre, then it was of all people Zeus. For all the non selling Hogan did in matches, he sold like crazy in them big angles to make the threat look real. Any threat the WWE tries to present now people will remember how 3 50 year olds just completely embarrassed them and not really get lost in the angle. Lesnar is booked strong and when he comes out its got the big match feel. Fortunately, he is not one of the unlucky ones that gets stuck putting over 55 year olds just to pop the crowd. Some of these guys have been embarrassed so much that they arent a threat at all(Big Show, Mark Henry, Kane, Dolph). It takes some impressively bad booking to make a 450 pounder not seem like a threat at all.

So a 50 year old doing a pop move is worse than a 50+ year old guy managing the new Hart Dynasty which made intercontinental champion (the miz) pick someone for a title match. Miz picked the manager and that guy won the IC title only to be named RAW GM the next week and vacate the title. Didn't the Miz have the tag title the month before? So it's better to transition the IC belt with a 50+ year old guy over someone who had 2 of your 4 titles the month before?

Now it wasn't at mania, it was part of the storyline and went no where as he dropped the belt a week later. I saw it as an all star event at mania. Maybe it should have happened at RAW and become an empty storyline.

Funny thing is Bret killed the show on his podcast for this very reason and said the only match he liked was the 5 women's tag match (wonder why).

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Zack Ryder, a guy who hasn't been a regular on TV for 5 years, won the IC title. AJ Styles, the guy who's going to headline the next PPV, lost clean after getting his finisher kicked out of. The Tag Team Champions lost, then the guys who beat them got beat up by a gaggle of 50 year olds, then the tag champs themselves got beat up by a gaggle of 50 year olds. Sasha Banks had Snoop fucking Dog do her entrance live...and then she lost. Shane McMahon was brought up the attic to fall off of a cage because they couldn't think of anything else as a hook to get people to order the show, and then they couldn't even coherently follow through on the storyline. Not even from night one, when the guy doing the blackmailing, agreed to fight THE UNDERTAKER, for no apparent reason that made an sort of logical sense.

Anyone who invested themselves in the storyline aspect of this show, came away completely underwhelmed. And it's not like there were a bunch of 4 star matches to save the day. It was a spectacle, it was an event, but it was not, by any stretch of the imagination, a good show.

Ryder was on TV more than the WWE HW Title was when Brock Lesnar had it but people accepted seeing the belt once every 3 months.

Styles I agree with and hate 50/50 wrestling but it did provide an element of surprise the next night. I think one page back someone declared that he fears AJ has hit his peak with the company. 24 hours later he is the #1 contender. Mania didn't give the payoff but set up a face that people can get behind for the title (especially if the Bullet Club forms behind him and not Balor)

Like I had said, I can live with Sasha not being the champ. Here's why. Nattie is going after the title now. Why would both people in the title match at mania be discarded? Charlotte = Flair, Sasha will be AA, Becky will be Tully, Bailey will be Windham (because fuck Ole). I'd predict the formation @ Summerslam but who knows {I know, fantasy booking is horrible but it's why we watch}. Not sure if the long slow burn will happen but they could have an actual survivor series match for the survivor series PPV.

Shane is that family taking up as much TV time as they can. Same with Trips. Same with Steph in her dominatrix outfits. I will say this, Shane probably did it out of selfishness. He got to have a match that all 3 of his boys can remember(not sure how many had seen him wrestle live). If anyone of us had a chance to do that in front of our kids, we probably would.

A year ago it was going to be Cena-Lesnar, HHH-Rock, Triple threat Shield for the title and injuries ruined that. Would that have been a great Mania, probably... but this year might have been the worst for the WWE injury wise so they made it as memorable as they could. I guarantee that 99% of the roster would have taken that Rock Bottom or stunner if given the opportunity so I'm not worried about their future as I'm sure they aren't either. Erik Rowan can say his first Mania match was against the Rock. How many guys can say that? New Day still has the belts and is over. AJ is going to have a WWE main event match. Ryder is going to be on TV more. Sasha will still get more than her fair share of face time and might help form a faction that might start a women's tag title division. I think too often fans forget that the wrestlers themselves were and probably still are fans themselves also.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Rest in peace, Blackjack Mulligan (aka Robert Jack Windham)

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ww...icle-1.2592045

[Toddzilla]

Baron Corbin
Erick Rowan
Braun Strowman
Viktor (or Konnor, whomever)
Mason Ryan

the endless list of big NXT stiffs go on and on

[JonInMiddleGA]

Maybe I'm just odd (gee, big shock). I mean, at heart I'm an IWC guy so I think I'm supposed to have disliked or even hated Mania.

I didn't. Though it's fair to say that's influenced by not paying top dollar to see it.

I enjoyed the IC match, enjoyed the outcome even more. I thought Jericho / Styles was paced a bit slower than optimal for the pairing and didn't think either man was sharp but {shrug} they're still more fun for me to see than 90% of the working wrestlers in the world. Missed the post-match tag team stuff but good grief, I'd have popped like crazy to see Woods(or Creed to me) take a stunner. Thought Ambrose/Lesnar was alright, despite the fact that I've never enjoyed Lesnar in the ring at all. Was less impressed by the women's title match than most people but of the three I only actively like Lynch {shrug again I guess}.

And then it was time for TWD season finale so off I went.

So I saw missed the back half (give or take) of the show & still came away entertained & relatively satisfied. And didn't really feel like I missed anything. UT/Shane was all about waiting for a big spot, the battle royal is usually a schmozz (though I was downright offended by the presence of Shaq, a huge slap in the face to the actual roster afaic), and nothing was going to happen in the main that would be an actual good outcome so missing it mattered not a whit to me.

But what I saw, I didn't hate.

[RainMaker]

I never feel like Wrestlemania is bad mainly because the matches are typically good and half the fun is the pageantry of it. The huge stage, elaborate entrances, custom outfits, etc.

Sure it would be better if there was actually any build and they used the more talented members of the roster. But I still got my $10 worth.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Baron Corbin
Erick Rowan
Braun Strowman
Viktor (or Konnor, whomever)
Mason Ryan

the endless list of big NXT stiffs go on and on

You forgot that 7 foot tall guy (Cass?)

On a side note since I really don't watch NXT that much, is it become TNA/Japan? I mean for an organization(HHH) that said there is nothing in TNA that they could ever use I sure do see a lot of names that I know because of it.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Maybe I'm just odd (gee, big shock). I mean, at heart I'm an IWC guy so I think I'm supposed to have disliked or even hated Mania.

I didn't. Though it's fair to say that's influenced by not paying top dollar to see it.

I enjoyed the IC match, enjoyed the outcome even more. I thought Jericho / Styles was paced a bit slower than optimal for the pairing and didn't think either man was sharp but {shrug} they're still more fun for me to see than 90% of the working wrestlers in the world. Missed the post-match tag team stuff but good grief, I'd have popped like crazy to see Woods(or Creed to me) take a stunner. Thought Ambrose/Lesnar was alright, despite the fact that I've never enjoyed Lesnar in the ring at all. Was less impressed by the women's title match than most people but of the three I only actively like Lynch {shrug again I guess}.

I think mine was influenced by not having 7 hours of "I love it Maggle!" or "Vinatge" for the 50th time. I haven't attempted to re-watch it on the network because I don't think I want it soured for me. The opinion between the people I've talked to who were at the show compared to the ones on TV is night and day.

Simple question while I'm thinking of it for the general crowd. Should they just have smackdown be all womens/mid tier/NXT talent to give something fresh for a while since the roster is thin? Not sure what you do when everyone gets back though.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

On a side note since I really don't watch NXT that much, is it become TNA/Japan? I mean for an organization(HHH) that said there is nothing in TNA that they could ever use I sure do see a lot of names that I know because of it.

to a point, yes, but I think it's more useful for WWE because they can get guys fairly cheap and transition them to the "WWE style" by introducing them at NXT, and getting them known to the WWE fanbase. That's supposedly the deal that Nakamura is on, he comes to NXT for a few months, gets used to the American style, moves up to main roster.

Also, it's their "Test Kitchen". Rather then throwing their folks straight into the deep end, it gives folks a chance to get live reps, not only in the ring, but talking. Enzo would have been given "Full Blooded Italians" 2.0 as a one note character, thrown into a match before he had connected with the fans, and then when he inevitably bombed would have been demoted to jobber land.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Simple question while I'm thinking of it for the general crowd. Should they just have smackdown be all womens/mid tier/NXT talent to give something fresh for a while since the roster is thin? Not sure what you do when everyone gets back though.

Isn't that basically NXT-for-cable at that point though?

And wouldn't that be risky as hell for ratings?

You could feature them prominently but going that route entirely would likely be a disaster. I mean, did you see what TNA's ratings looked like? I love a lot of those guys & all but the audience for them clearly isn't enough for a mainstream cable show at this point.

So my answer is "mix and match, but not 100%"

[Maple Leafs]

So as someone who's never seen Enzo and Cass before, and was impressed by their RAW debut, I have to ask: Does they just do the same mic work every time? I mean, it was all sorts of fun, but when the crowd is chanting along with 90% of it, I'm guessing it was stuff they've done once or twice before.

Is this just a return to the late-90's catchphrase era, or should I be looking forward to something more?

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Isn't that basically NXT-for-cable at that point though?

And wouldn't that be risky as hell for ratings?

You could feature them prominently but going that route entirely would likely be a disaster. I mean, did you see what TNA's ratings looked like? I love a lot of those guys & all but the audience for them clearly isn't enough for a mainstream cable show at this point.

So my answer is "mix and match, but not 100%"

How much was TNA's inept ability to book under the Hogan/Russo/Dixie a factor for TNA's ratings? I mean lots of people enjoyed the post-Mania RAW but in reality they gave most the night off and needed someone to fill 3 hours. Also the ratings for RAW were horrible in the grand view of things. Stackdown started @ 2.7 this year and is down to 2.2/2.1 so what is at risk by changing the show or at least providing a mini brand split. I'm not saying going with a full NXT show but they could seriously move some rest some mid level performers. Give Zigs a month off and bring up a NXT guy in his position for a month then trade out another superstar for a different NXT guy to gain some experience. Or maybe give us something besides the same four tag teams every week (Uso, Dudley, N Day, LON). You would think it might help cut down on injuries and with enough planning could give fresher story lines.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

So as someone who's never seen Enzo and Cass before, and was impressed by their RAW debut, I have to ask: Does they just do the same mic work every time? I mean, it was all sorts of fun, but when the crowd is chanting along with 90% of it, I'm guessing it was stuff they've done once or twice before.

Is this just a return to the late-90's catchphrase era, or should I be looking forward to something more?

I feel like they've done those lines for 3 years? I've never watched it long enough to understand why they spell out SAWFT. And you can't teach that (about as far as I make it the few times I've seen them)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

I feel like they've done those lines for 3 years?

You may not be off by much. This fan video is dated June 2013

Enzo Amore NXT Entrance - YouTube

edit to add: And this fan video from the stands (with great quality audio for a live shot) is from about 13 months ago. Sit through it and listen, you'll recognize a lot of stuff ... which accounts for how the crowd knows it word for word.

https://youtu.be/edd2l1Smblg

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just had a weird thought, a prediction if you wanna call it that I guess.

If they stick on the big roster & get a moderate push along the way, some of those Enzo catchphrases will be heard frequently around high school football stadiums/lockerrooms from coast to coast next fall.

[Toddzilla]

Wow, I got a DDP flashback, in a good way mind you

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Wow, I got a DDP flashback, in a good way mind you

Yep, exactly what I was thinking of.

[molson]

RIP Balls Mahoney.

He's been in really rough shape the last few years.

[molson]

TNA apparently didn't have enough money to run its next TV tapings, so an investor stepped in to save the day and is "probably" buying the company, according to Meltzer. That savior - a marketing company called Aroluxe, which employs The Harris Brothers, those former pro wrestlers who have Nazi tattoos and once wore an SS shirt at a TNA taping. This is just a random company that has nothing to do with TV, let alone wrestling, so presumably the Harris Borthers are driving it.

Dixie Carter has been negotiating with this group for a while and has been trying to maintain control over 51% of the company, but it's looking like that ship might have sailed and she'll have to give up control.

[Mota]

At this point, you'd have to pay me to take TNA. The name value has to be a negative, and they've driven away their target market. What do they really have, other than a TV slot on a crappy channel?

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Mota

At this point, you'd have to pay me to take TNA. The name value has to be a negative, and they've driven away their target market. What do they really have, other than a TV slot on a crappy channel?

Any worse than GFW (TNA 2.0) or whatever Double J is running? Oh I remember when everyone thought they were just one TV deal away from the big time...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Any worse than GFW (TNA 2.0) or whatever Double J is running? Oh I remember when everyone thought they were just one TV deal away from the big time...

I'm not sure that GFW is meant to even be taken seriously as a promotion per se. It's more like an occasional indy promoter that might do some one-off deals with international companies.

[jbergey22]

RIP Chyna

Chyna, Former WWE Superstar, Dies at Age 46 | Bleacher Report

[RainMaker]

Sad but sort of expected.

[stevew]

Yeah, sounds like a suicide?

[stevew]

We already have a Mt Rushmore going, but a Mt Rushmore of best wrestling angles needs to happen soon. Was just thinking about that whole Stephanie/HHH/Test thing

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by stevew

We already have a Mt Rushmore going, but a Mt Rushmore of best wrestling angles needs to happen soon. Was just thinking about that whole Stephanie/HHH/Test thing

Wouldn't have been in my top 10. Hogan's name pops up way too often when I think about the angles all-time.

[APC]

I'll kick off the best angle Mt. Rushmore talk:

1. Flair/Funk at the end of Wrestlewar '89. (NWA Wrestle War 1989 Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat - YouTube to 40-min mark)
2. Jerry Lawler/Bill Dundee, Oct. 1985 (really, any angle these two have done together would qualify) (Memphis Wrestling: Jerry Lawler vs. Bill Dundee - Part 1 - YouTube)
3. Ted Dibiase/Flair/Dick Murdoch Mid South 1985 (10 Best Drawing Angles In Wrestling History)
4. Austin vs. McMahon

[murrayyyyy]

1) Formation of NWO to Crow Sting...
2) Stone Cold-McMahon (until we got corporate Austin)
3) CM Punk 434 (from pipe bomb to MIB 2011 to 434)
4) The streak (Sorta cheating but you have a start, a peak with Shawn's last match and a end with Brock).

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by APC

I'll kick off the best angle Mt. Rushmore talk:

1. Flair/Funk at the end of Wrestlewar '89. (NWA Wrestle War 1989 Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat - YouTube to 40-min mark)
2. Jerry Lawler/Bill Dundee, Oct. 1985 (really, any angle these two have done together would qualify) (Memphis Wrestling: Jerry Lawler vs. Bill Dundee - Part 1 - YouTube)
3. Ted Dibiase/Flair/Dick Murdoch Mid South 1985 (10 Best Drawing Angles In Wrestling History)
4. Austin vs. McMahon

I had problem picking my favorite Lawler story line so I couldn't put it in my 4. As much as I love Dundee I think his best match was against Funk in the empty arena and his best story line (from a national perspective) is probably Andy Kaufman (this probably ranks as the last thing you see entering Mt. Rushmore @ #5). It's just like trying to pick out the best Hogan one as Andre/Iron Shiek/Macho are probably more significant to a WWE fan compared to the NWO turn.

Ted-Dick-Ric is probably the greatest 1 hour story line ever as it was basically 1 show with a double turn using an NWA champion in a territory for the turn. I just didn't know if it was long enough for me to consider it a great story line. I can't argue against it being on someone list I just couldn't do it based of length of the story line.

[APC]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

I had problem picking my favorite Lawler story line so I couldn't put it in my 4. As much as I love Dundee I think his best match was against Funk in the empty arena and his best story line (from a national perspective) is probably Andy Kaufman (this probably ranks as the last thing you see entering Mt. Rushmore @ #5). It's just like trying to pick out the best Hogan one as Andre/Iron Shiek/Macho are probably more significant to a WWE fan compared to the NWO turn.

Ted-Dick-Ric is probably the greatest 1 hour story line ever as it was basically 1 show with a double turn using an NWA champion in a territory for the turn. I just didn't know if it was long enough for me to consider it a great story line. I can't argue against it being on someone list I just couldn't do it based of length of the story line.

I guess I approach "angle" more as a singular event or short series of events that results in a longer-term storyline. I included Austin vs. McMahon as an "angle" because there's so many individual events or segments to pick from.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by APC

I guess I approach "angle" more as a singular event or short series of events that results in a longer-term storyline. I included Austin vs. McMahon as an "angle" because there's so many individual events or segments to pick from.

Yeah, a great thing about wrestling is the difference in angles that people fall in love with. You can have the quick payoff ones or the slow burn ones. I keep thinking that I glorify the older angles. Showed someone the old Mid-South on the WWE network last month. He texted me 4 hours later: "The 4th grader in me must have had horrible taste back then because I'm struggling to watch this."

It felt dirty not having Rhodes-Flair, Magnum-Tully or Lawler-anyone on my list.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by molson

RIP Balls Mahoney.

He's been in really rough shape the last few years.

Shocked that he barely turned 44, he looked rough the last few years. RIP Balls.