FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Carrying a gun is a lawful activity. It does not waive your right to self defense. I know people don't like that fact, but you would have to change the law to make that the case.

But admittedly, I was surprised when the minor having a weapon was tossed based on the length of weapon. But regardless, inconsequential in the big scheme of things.

A Wisconsin judge on Monday dismissed a misdemeanor charge against Kyle Rittenhouse, the teenager facing murder charges for fatally shooting two protesters during unrest over police brutality last year in Kenosha, Wis.

The charge of possession of a dangerous weapon by a minor was dropped Monday morning as jurors were waiting to hear closing arguments in Rittenhouse's trial.

Judge Bruce Schroeder said that it was unclear whether the rifle Rittenhouse used qualified under the Wisconsin statute, and the prosecutors in the case chose not to press their case on the single misdemeanor count.

Schroeder had earlier dismissed the defense's effort to get the charge thrown out, but on Monday said that he believed the statute was poorly written and was open to challenging the count, which carries a maximum possible sentence of nine months in jail and a $10,000 fine.
:
The dispute over Rittenhouse's rifle centered on whether the length of the weapon qualified it as dangerous under the state law.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Drake

It would have been a much more interesting case if Grosskreutz had finished his logical action and shot Rittenhouse, then have Grosskreutz claim self-defense from the perspective of someone who assumed they were putting down an active shooter in the chaos.

I think if Grosskreutz killed Rittenhouse or if a mob swarmed and killed him, there would be enough reasonable doubt where they would not be convicted.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Worth noting he was charged with felony murder despite not killing anyone. Stark contrast to those at the Capitol who aided Babbitt in her crime.

Also, no cops were charged in the murder of an innocent person.

I see what you're saying, but it also shows the bias in our justice system.

I was saying anything with that other than both were correct under the law. The Coffee case wasn't getting any attention, and it probably should have. The difference in both is what needs to be corrected so that it is harder for either to happen again.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The Matthew Dolloff case in Colorado is an interesting parallel (although I believe Dolloff was working at the time and not there for shooting). This time a right-wing protester was shot. The judge has already ruled the defense is not allowed to bring up the fact the victim used racial slurs and was trying to start a fight. Stark contrast to the Rittenhouse trial where the victims were allowed to be called looters and arsonists.

The federal government did not come out in support of the defendant in this trial. Politicians are not offering him internships. He was arrested at the scene. And there was certainly not millions of dollars in donations for his defense fund.

It will be interesting to see how this turns out, although we are already seeing some differences in how the defendant is being treated by the courts.

He has a good chance of being convicted (though it is not a sure thing) for reasons that have nothing to do with what you have pointed out. Read the 5 standards of defense posted earlier. Dolloff would have had to be in threat of his life and had attempted to removed himself from the situation. He answered being sprayed with pepper spray with lethal force. I can see a jury saying he was not in threat of his life and that he could have escaped the area.

Pinkerton is going to lose a lawsuit on that case big. Major corporation with deep pockets hiring an unlicensed security guard with a gun. $$$$

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Edward64

But admittedly, I was surprised when the minor having a weapon was tossed based on the length of weapon. But regardless, inconsequential in the big scheme of things.

I think if he spends a couple of months in jail for a weapons possession charge, that at least shows there is some consequence. But, unfortunately, it does look like the law is muddled and they could claim he was carrying around a hunting rifle, in the eyes of the law, despite that gun clearly not being used for that purpose.

SI

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

He has a good chance of being convicted (though it is not a sure thing) for reasons that have nothing to do with what you have pointed out. Read the 5 standards of defense posted earlier. Dolloff would have had to be in threat of his life and had attempted to removed himself from the situation. He answered being sprayed with pepper spray with lethal force. I can see a jury saying he was not in threat of his life and that he could have escaped the area.

Pinkerton is going to lose a lawsuit on that case big. Major corporation with deep pockets hiring an unlicensed security guard with a gun. $$$$

This is horseshit and you know it. There is no duty to retreat in Colorado.

Dolloff was threatened, physically assaulted, and maced by a man who was insinuating he was armed. Someone clearly looking for a physical altercation. I would argue that's much more menacing a threat to human life than a guy with a skateboard or a pack of skittles.

Don't think he should have shot someone and hope he goes to prison for it. But I do think he should be treated like other vigilantes and be given the same legal options in his defense.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I think if he spends a couple of months in jail for a weapons possession charge, that at least shows there is some consequence. But, unfortunately, it does look like the law is muddled and they could claim he was carrying around a hunting rifle, in the eyes of the law, despite that gun clearly not being used for that purpose.

It appears his possession of the gun was completely legal and he should have never been charged with that. The Judge made the right call to toss it.

Gun laws are tricky in some states. Wisconsin, like many other pro-gun states, wanted teenagers to be able to carry. But they didn't want black teenagers in the city to carry. So they carved out exceptions for certain guns that are not used, or can't be used in the city. If Rittenhouse had used a handgun, it would have been illegal.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

This is horseshit and you know it. There is no duty to retreat in Colorado.

Dolloff was threatened, physically assaulted, and maced by a man who was insinuating he was armed. Someone clearly looking for a physical altercation. I would argue that's much more menacing a threat to human life than a guy with a skateboard or a pack of skittles.

Don't think he should have shot someone and hope he goes to prison for it. But I do think he should be treated like other vigilantes and be given the same legal options in his defense.

A) Thanks for the personal attack, but I am trying to be intellectually honest with this as much as possible. I am not a lawyer, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last night. So maybe you can ratchet down the rhetoric please?
B) I was basing my need to retreat on what is the regular standard for self defense. I don't know Colorado law personally. Just more what is the average legal position for is nationally. I had no idea that Colorado is a stand your ground state. I stand corrected.

[RainMaker]

Sorry for the attack. I'm not trying to take a side in who is right or wrong necessarily. Two things bother me about all this.

1) I don't want to live where people start opening fire at the first sign of conflict. Bullets are indiscriminate and being in a city, I get to read those stories about a 7 year old who catches a bullet in her home because some shitheads are having a gunfight down the block. So I don't want 17-year olds or untrained security guards opening fire in public spaces with lots of bystanders.

2) I think everyone should be treated equally under the law. Doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, black or white, left or right, police or civilian, etc. But as we've seen from the response to protests over the Summer last year to January 6th, that's not the case. And the Dolloff example was used to show that it's not black vs white, but sometimes just a matter of what side the police and judge is on.

That's it. I think it's moronic that we have a system where you can bring a gun somewhere, maybe instigate something, and start firing away the minute you feel "threatened". But if that's how we're going to do it, it should be treated equally among all citizens.

[cuervo72]

We're really headed to an extremely dark place, where this is the mainstream GOP view of the Libs. To be honest, I think we're already there. pic.twitter.com/eAkH52PZZd

— Centrism Fan Acct �� (@Wilson__Valdez) November 20, 2021

[Lathum]

The disheartening thing is majority of the right isn't celebrating him being acquitted, they are celebrating the act itself.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Sorry for the attack. I'm not trying to take a side in who is right or wrong necessarily. Two things bother me about all this.

1) I don't want to live where people start opening fire at the first sign of conflict. Bullets are indiscriminate and being in a city, I get to read those stories about a 7 year old who catches a bullet in her home because some shitheads are having a gunfight down the block. So I don't want 17-year olds or untrained security guards opening fire in public spaces with lots of bystanders.

2) I think everyone should be treated equally under the law. Doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, black or white, left or right, police or civilian, etc. But as we've seen from the response to protests over the Summer last year to January 6th, that's not the case. And the Dolloff example was used to show that it's not black vs white, but sometimes just a matter of what side the police and judge is on.

That's it. I think it's moronic that we have a system where you can bring a gun somewhere, maybe instigate something, and start firing away the minute you feel "threatened". But if that's how we're going to do it, it should be treated equally among all citizens.

I agree on all points. We desperately need to get rid of stand your ground laws, and strength gun control laws in general. The Rittenhouse worship is an abomination.

[RainMaker]

Another parallel to Rittenhouse is the activist in Portland. He didn't get his day in court and it sure seemed like this was an extrajudicial killing.

bars

[GrantDawg]

We will never know. That attempted arrest had the quality of a federal death squad.

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[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Lathum

So how soon until he is on Tucker Carlson?

Tonight or will they at least have enough shame to wait until Monday?

Why should there be any shame at all?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

We will never know. That attempted arrest had the quality of a federal death squad.

It could have been by the book and a justified shooting. The individual definitely seemed troubled. But Trumps comments afterwards suggest otherwise.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

So how soon until he is on Tucker Carlson?

Tonight or will they at least have enough shame to wait until Monday?

Tucker Carlson Has Been Filming A 'Documentary' With Kyle Rittenhouse

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Why should there be any shame at all?

I'm with you. I'd get as much help and support as I can from deep pockets & media if I was in his situation. Pretty logical and understandable move.

[Lathum]

If you guys can't see the shame in him profiting off this I'm not sure it is worth trying to explain it to you. He is going to grift off his horrible decisions that lead to 2 men being killed. guilty or not this was a horrible situation that was easily avoidable and no one should profit from it. Not to mention the right is going to canonize him and we are going to see all sorts of copy cats. FOX News making this kid a hero is disgusting on a number of levels.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

If you guys can't see the shame in him profiting off this I'm not sure it is worth trying to explain it to you. He is going to grift off his horrible decisions that lead to 2 men being killed. guilty or not this was a horrible situation that was easily avoidable and no one should profit from it. Not to mention the right is going to canonize him and we are going to see all sorts of copy cats. FOX News making this kid a hero is disgusting on a number of levels.

You view this is profiting off this. I view it as getting as much support as possible because there is a large % that is demonizing him and he needed (and will continue to need) "friends". Profit is TBD, there will likely be years of civil lawsuits.

No, he shouldn't be portrayed as a hero by the right. And no, he should not be demonized by the left.

[Lathum]

You don't think he is going to go on Fox, etc...and not be treated like a hero? And fuck this kid for needing friends. He isn't a good person, in fact he is a piece of shit who deserves everything he gets. Please don't tell me his little skit on the stand actually made you think he is remorseful?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

You don't think he is going to go on Fox, etc...and not be treated like a hero? And fuck this kid for needing friends. He isn't a good person, in fact he is a piece of shit who deserves everything he gets. Please don't tell me his little skit on the stand actually made you think he is remorseful?

He will be treated as a hero on Fox. I'm saying he shouldn't be.

Yes, I do think he was remorseful. And yes, I do think the verdict was correct based on the laws and evidence presented.

Do you disagree with the verdict?

[Lathum]

I would have liked to see guilty, but I can also see why it wasn't. The bottom line is this trial worsens us as a nation. It will embolden far right militia groups and copy cats. Parading him around like some hero just normalizes it and make it worse. The best thing now would be for him to fade into oblivion.

And nothing says remorseful like hanging out at a bar flashing white supremacy signs wearing a tee shirt that says "free as fuck." Are you seriously that naïve?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

And nothing says remorseful like hanging out at a bar flashing white supremacy signs wearing a tee shirt that says "free as fuck." Are you seriously that naïve?

Your original goalpost was below. So yes, I do think he was remorseful on the stand. But yeah, if he did wear that t-shirt, I would agree with you that he was not remorseful after the verdict.

Please don't tell me his little skit on the stand actually made you think he is remorseful?

I think self-defense is justified but it doesn't sit well with me if he isn't penalized somehow. I do hope the inevitable civil trials gives some measure of consequence.

I would have liked to see guilty, but I can also see why it wasn't. The bottom line is this trial worsens us as a nation. It will embolden far right militia groups and copy cats. Parading him around like some hero just normalizes it and make it worse. The best thing now would be for him to fade into oblivion.

[GrantDawg]

It has only taken two years to get charges. Iy has also gotten very little attention. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...lgoer-rcna6223

[Flasch186]

Did that actually happen that he went to a bar and flashed white suprematist signs?


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[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Did that actually happen that he went to a bar and flashed white suprematist signs?


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Yes. It happened a couple of months after killings. The picture is wide-spread.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...utors-n1254250

[GrantDawg]

Btw, the thing I learned in that story was it is legal to drink alcohol if you are under 21 in the state of Wisconsin as long as you are with a parent.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Did that actually happen that he went to a bar and flashed white suprematist signs?


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Yes. While wearing a tee shirt that said Free as Fuck, while posing with pictures with known members of The Proud Boys.

I'm surprised you missed hearing about it in the trial. Of Wait, the judge wouldn't allow that to be brought up.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Your original goalpost was below. So yes, I do think he was remorseful on the stand. But yeah, if he did wear that t-shirt, I would agree with you that he was not remorseful after the verdict.



I think self-defense is justified but it doesn't sit well with me if he isn't penalized somehow. I do hope the inevitable civil trials gives some measure of consequence.

It was really only justified because he wasn't the active shooter that people thought he was. That's it. If he had been, the others would be the hero's, not the "looters and arsonists" (because that's what we were told we had to call them, and we couldn't hear about his comments to the police before all this went down either). They made a mistake, but that is exactly what you get when everyone has guns.

He's just a small fry though. He's really a nobody. He's a fucking little kid, who is getting his 15 minutes, and the big players are really going to fuck his corpse for all they can get out of it. It's what they do with that, and the lasting impact of that bump off of him that will matter the most.

[HerRealName]

There's also video of him punching a girl. To be more precise, he sucker punched her from behind 4 or 5 times.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

It was really only justified because he wasn't the active shooter that people thought he was. That's it. If he had been, the others would be the hero's, not the "looters and arsonists" (because that's what we were told we had to call them, and we couldn't hear about his comments to the police before all this went down either). They made a mistake, but that is exactly what you get when everyone has guns.

When did we "had to call them" looters and arsonists?

Just more bullshit from liberals.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

No, he shouldn't be portrayed as a hero by the right. And no, he should not be demonized by the left.

Even if you removed the mass shooting from his record, he still suckered punched a woman in public and is an open white supremacist.

Maybe different sets of morals between us but I consider the things above worthy of demonization.

[RainMaker]

I also think he doesn't have many options when it comes to making money going forward. Profiting off the shooting is really his only option.

The guy killed multiple people. He is on film assaulting a woman. And he's documented to be affiliated and supporting white supremacists. There is no company that will hire him. He is too much of a liability.

So unless he wins some lawsuit or something, his only income stream is signing stuff at gun conventions and appearing in fascist propaganda. And that probably only lasts until he threatens to kill a girlfriend or something like Zimmerman.. Although for some groups, that may increase his earning potential.

[JPhillips]

He doesn't have any worries for a couple of years. He'll profit nicely off of appearance fees. That won't last very long, though, as something else will take over in the imagination of MAGA. AT that point, his life probably dissolves ala Zimmerman.

His family and advisors should be pushing him to find a real career and stay out of the spotlight, but I doubt any of them can resist the money that they'll get initially.

[cuervo72]

In that video of him walking up to the cops and making the hand signal after he shot three people he really didn't look like he was shaken up by it at all. Looked frighteningly blasé about it.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Btw, the thing I learned in that story was it is legal to drink alcohol if you are under 21 in the state of Wisconsin as long as you are with a parent.

Pretty sure it’s under 18, but not 18-20.

[Edward64]

Let's try to put the sucker punch video into some context.

Snopes says it looks like him but unproven.

Did Kyle Rittenhouse Punch a Woman in This Video? | Snopes.com

Regardless, it does look like him. He hit a female who was also hitting on a smaller female. I don't think we know the circumstances of that fight (if you have more info, please post it) or who the smaller female was. But yeah, if that was my sister/niece/good friend etc. getting beat up on, I would do what I can to defend her.

On the point of white supremacist. Its pretty obvious there are differing levels of rigor needed for some here. Show me more evidence of this other than a bar where he was befriended by Proud Boys and gave an ok sign. Present evidence where he was a white supremacist before that fateful day vs after where he was looking for any and would welcome any support he could get.

If he has a history of rants (e.g. FB, twitter ... I googled but didn't find anything else other than opinions), I'll concede this point. But right now, one incident does not make him a white supremacist.

[GrantDawg]

Anyone in Wisconsin have anything on this driver attacking the Christmas parade?

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[lungs]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Anyone in Wisconsin have anything on this driver attacking the Christmas parade?

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It happened in Waukesha, a super conservative city. I’ve seen other stuff, unconfirmed.

[GrantDawg]

I hqve seen one in custody, three suspects outstanding, but all early reporting is usually garbage. The early reports of shots fired is questionable as well.

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[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Let's try to put the sucker punch video into some context.

Snopes says it looks like him but unproven.

Did Kyle Rittenhouse Punch a Woman in This Video? | Snopes.com

Regardless, it does look like him. He hit a female who was also hitting on a smaller female. I don't think we know the circumstances of that fight (if you have more info, please post it) or who the smaller female was. But yeah, if that was my sister/niece/good friend etc. getting beat up on, I would do what I can to defend her.

On the point of white supremacist. Its pretty obvious there are differing levels of rigor needed for some here. Show me more evidence of this other than a bar where he was befriended by Proud Boys and gave an ok sign. Present evidence where he was a white supremacist before that fateful day vs after where he was looking for any and would welcome any support he could get.

If he has a history of rants (e.g. FB, twitter ... I googled but didn't find anything else other than opinions), I'll concede this point. But right now, one incident does not make him a white supremacist.

The video was more or less confirmed by his defense team who successfully argued to keep it out of the trial. And he met up and patrolled with a literal Nazi. Like a guy posting pro Hitler videos on social media. And he was pretty comfortable at a bar with white supremacists and giving white power signs.

Wisconsin Man Who Says He Marched With Rittenhouse in Kenosha Was Immersed in White Supremacist Propaganda | Southern Poverty Law Center

I get your shtick is to defend these kinds of people but its just a Google search away. And he isn't exactly hiding his beliefs.. But I m guessing you know that and are "just asking questions".

[NobodyHere]

These guys are also comfortable giving "white power signs"

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

These guys are also comfortable giving "white power signs"

They are also not Nazis, just fans of ancient Hindu symbols.

[GrantDawg]

Latest reports is 20 injured and one person of interest.

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[Edward64]

Yup, definitely more rigor needed.

Hatewatch was unable to determine to what degree Balch may have been in contact with Rittenhouse prior to the Kenosha protests, if at all. It is also not clear whether or not the pair were connected on social media. So far, the only information linking the two men comes from Balch’s Facebook post.

[RainMaker]

The video is horrific and it would be a miracle if no one dies. What a fucking cowardly monster.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Latest reports is 20 injured and one person of interest.

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Video in link. Horrible, it looks intentional to me at first glance.

'Multiple people injured after car plows into crowd at Wisconsin Christmas parade' | Daily Mail Online

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Yup, definitely more rigor needed.

He testified under oath like 2 weeks ago man. The rigor you're looking for is figuring out how to use Google.

[Edward64]

I'll quote again your article that supposedly proved your point (but didn't).

Hatewatch was unable to determine to what degree Balch may have been in contact with Rittenhouse prior to the Kenosha protests, if at all. It is also not clear whether or not the pair were connected on social media. So far, the only information linking the two men comes from Balch’s Facebook post.