Maximum Football???

[MJ4H]

I'd prefer a 2D top down display myself as long as it moved fluidly and showed all the action.

[Hammer755]

You guys are being way to rough on sttfrk, and confirming some of the anti-FOFC opinions being thrown this direction, which I thought, at least, were entirely untrue. sttfrk is simply offering an honest personal assessment of the game, and pointing out the glaring weaknesses of MF as well as describing why he likes the game. He's not making excuses, or trying to gloss over problematic issues like some of the other nameless posters here have been doing.

I think he's been treated quite unfairly with unnecessary vitriol.

[Cringer]

As soon as I go look up "vitriol" I may respond to this.

[rkmsuf]

Waaaaaaaa......too much vitriol. Waaaaaaaaaaaa.

[Cringer]

1. Chemistry. any of certain metallic sulfates of glassy appearance, as copper sulfate or blue vitriol, iron sulfate or green vitriol, zinc sulfate or white vitriol, etc.

Sounds pretty.

[cartman]

So, for about the 20th time, HA has declared the thread dead. Each time before, he has been proven wrong.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Marauders

All right. The 10 years you previously stated is now 8 or 9 years.

Graphics = what I see on the screen. What I see on the screen includes animation. The animation and camera work in this game is the worst of any 3D football game I've ever seen. Combine that with player models that match up with games 8-9 years old, and I'd say I'm being generous in saying it matches up visually with 3D football games 10 years old.

Madden 99 and earlier look much worse. Madden 2000 has similarities, but the players were much too large (fat) and didn't have as good resolution. Madden 2001 and 2002 are similar in graphics, but the Madden series has better animations for the players.

As someone that worked on football video games for 6+ years, I'm aware that opinions vary wildly on what people think is accurate in terms of player models. I would agree that Madden's player models are not ideal - I thought the player models we had in NFL Fever were superior. But I'd bet a large sum of money that the poly count and number of animated joints in the players used in MF are comparable to what Madden (and Fever and NFL2K) were using 8-9 years ago. Certainly the texture-mapping is nothing special, and I have my doubts that any sophisticated shaders are being used, nor does it appear that the lighting in the game is anything other than rudimentary.

Once Madden went to using motion capture technology, there was no way any game done by a small independent developer would be able to match it. That is why most independent games are text sims or have very little on field graphics. Madden 2004 and onward are much better than Maximum Football in their graphics, but we already knew that, so what is the point? Maximum Football does have some arcade controls for players who want to be more hands on, but it is really a coaching game.

Even without using motion-capture technology, it's possible to generate good-looking animations - you just need talented animators with a lot of time on their hands. You'd also need a programmer capable of adding blending functionality into his animation playback code.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by DeftRevisited

To the question of a counter play, I thought a counter was any play where the RB changes direction in the backfield by design. I didn't think you had to have a pulling guard to prove it.

No, there are a few different types of runs that have the RB make a feign move. A counter is just one kind (a trap is the other standard kind) While you don't HAVE to have a pulling guard or tackle on a counter play for it to be a counter, it's pretty much the standard to have some kind of deception in the OL blocking scheme.

Going back to the original screenshot, I'm wondering why or how the FB seems to have gotten into the 2nd level by the time the RB is starting the actual run. Your description is also a bit troubling. You say the LT (playside) runs off to lead block, but there is a blitzing OLB on that side. I know you said that he got caught trailing the play, but (in the real world) a blitzing OLB on the playside will blow up a counter play every single time if he is not blocked.

From the sound of it, instead of telling your linemen what you want them to do, you have to basically rig it to get the result you want. I mean, having to tell a backside tackle to pass block in order to get him to seal off the backside on a counter play...

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by cartman

So, for about the 20th time, HA has declared the thread dead. Each time before, he has been proven wrong.

it is dead. the same stuff/arguements are being made and all the funny classic stuff is about 70 pages ago. just cuz people are continuing to post doesn't make this "ALIVE". just like someone rendered a vegetable and is on on life support isn't ALIVE just cuz the machine is keeping their lungs breathing and heart beating. that person's best years are long behind them.

it's time to pull the plug.

[johneh]

Someone is selling it on Ebay for $45 plus $4.5 shipping


http://cgi.ebay.com/Maximum-Football...sid=p1638.m118

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

it's time to pull the plug.

I've tried, Lord knows I've tried. But Daivd's doctors won't agree.
I think they just figure as long as the meter's running why not maximize profit.

Personally, it's seem sort of inhumane to keep something completely brain dead going just to wring a few more bucks out of it but ... welcome to Hollywood.

[astrosfan64]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

it is dead. the same stuff/arguements are being made and all the funny classic stuff is about 70 pages ago. just cuz people are continuing to post doesn't make this "ALIVE". just like someone rendered a vegetable and is on on life support isn't ALIVE just cuz the machine is keeping their lungs breathing and heart beating. that person's best years are long behind them.

it's time to pull the plug.

Actually some of the best stuff is on the matrix forums themselves. There was quite a team of trolls going to town there. It was pretty funny. I read it all the other day, quite amusing.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

Okay...so it does suck at working with odd numbered teams.

Spinmeister, I told you that working with an odd number of teams in the real world is a pain in the backside, and leagues will try very hard not to have to do so. The schedule tool will do it, but it requires a bye each week, which means that at least one team will not play the first week of the season.

I gave you an accurate analysis of the schedule creation tool. It is a basic round robin scheduler - nothing more and nothing less. It does do odd number team league schedules. It could be better, but that is what it is.

LOL! So you are touting a scheduler that you just admitted above is very basic and you have to edit yourself.

Am I touting the schedule creation tool? I am not. I have explained what it does in the context of your premise, which was that the schedule tool cannot do odd numbers of teams, and that premise was invalid.

I don't believe the schedule tool is a strength of the game. It is nothing special to tout, but it at least it is does the basic task of creating a round robin schedule that may be edited for more complex leagues.

And why the comparison to Madden when their selling point isn't to customize any type of football league. That is the selling point of this game and why many say it doesn't do anything very well. You even admit that the schedule creator is basic, which includes even numbered teams.

Ah yes, compare the game to Madden when it comes to graphics, compare to FOF when it comes to GM features, but ignore the strengths of the game when the others are missing those features. Maximum Football has advantages and disadvantages over other games; it is not the end all game, and it was never designed to be.

Well he mentioned there is free agency which is contradictory to what you are saying. Confused by this if you both own the game.

There are free agents, so there is free agency.

With no contracts, you don't have true free agency. How do opposing teams bid for a player if there is no monetary value assigned to them?

By your definition of true free agnecy. I see.

Tell me this, does FOF run true plays? Does the game actually go through the physics of the men in space on a gamefield interacting with each other and a ball in motion? Does it really do more than take the statistics already given and redistribute them by formulas that guarantee the outcomes are similar to the original statistics? Is that true football? Are FOF, Football Mogul, and other text games really true football games at all?

It is quite simple to find that an item does not meet a definition when one creates the definition based upon what one already knows as a strict enough interpretation to exclude the item.

And can you please elaborate on how well the CPU drafts players for computer controlled teams.

The CPU drafts by the team profile it is using.

And why would FOF have CFL rules? They never touted themselves to play any type of league imaginable and fall short of it.

And why would Maximum Football have GM and commissioner features when it was never touted as having them. That is exactly my point.

Would you like for me to get every quote from both message boards to see how many times you like to bring up he is a solo developer. Weak.

It is an intervening variable whether you chose to ignore it or not.

Okay, so people are playing CPU vs CPU to get realistic stats with custom playbooks and tweaks to the engine because the basic playbooks/players are poor in simulating a game of football. I am glad we agreed on that.

What? You don't even know what you are talking about.

There are two ways to play the games in Maximum Football: one is on the 3D field with full playbooks and gameplans, the other is running games through the sim game engine that uses playbooks and player skills but does not play the game out using the physics based engine.

As I stated before, there can be great variance in the outcomes of games in the 3D game by having game owners use differing playbooks, gameplans, and making changes to the constants (base run speed ...) to fit the game to how one wants it to be played. A game owner can run a 1950s ground pounding game, ane can run NFL style game, or one can run a more open Madden style game.

If one wants to set up a league, one has to make sure that the variables for the sim game match the 3D game (CPU games). At the request of beta and community members, David has allowed more of the variables to be accessed by the game owner to do this. The beta team has also tweaked the default setting to closer to the NFL as the standard, and there are further improvements being tested.

With all the time they have given him to develop this game, are you telling me that Matrix told David to just hold off on a fast sim option?

You misread my post. Matrix Games told David that they wanted a fast sim instead of the 3D based sim, and that delayed the game's release.

Would you like for us to post (FOF) game stats? You know, the same type of stats that people seem to be afraid to post here. And I said game stats, not a compilation of stats over a season.

This isn't an FOF topic, but sure; 5 second sim the first week and post the results.

Oh yes, we know this. You guys even argued at the beginning that it never even said it could play an American pro ruleset, remember. And then when called on it, it was said that American Pro does not mean NFL. So yeah, you are correct, it can't do any pro game correctly.

You guys? I didn't argue that. I don't work for Matrix Games.

In its original form, the game did not have specific rule sets beyond the rles that could be changed by league type. It was not designed to emulate any given league in detail. It was designed as a game that would allow one to play with differing rules that had the major rule set based on a generic set of rules. That was the design that David had in mind from the start. It was not supposed to be an NFL, NCAA, and CFL simulator.

Because of feedback from the beta team and the community, he decided it would be best to go from general to specific on as many rules he could. In my opinion, he has done a pretty good job considering that the game was not supposed to be that detailed by design, and he had to create a different layer of code to do so.

You said in another post that when Maximum Football came out, I was posting great things about it and then became the moderator of the board. That is simply a fabrication.

In fact, I was very vocal about the game not having statistics that were comparable to the NFL game. There were problems in the defensive AI, and the game had many statistics bugs. I joined the beta team to help clean up those problems, and I didn't become the board moderator until months later.

Again, I am here to answer questions and provide information and debunk myths. I am not here to tell anyone they should purchase the game or not, just as I would not tell anyone here to purchase FOF, Madden, or any other game. It is always for each individual to decide.

Some of you may not trust what I say is sincere, but one can look at my posts on the Matrix Games board to those people who may inquire about the game. I am fair and honest about what the game will do and what it will not do, and as a moderator I ask each community member to post any constructive criticisms he or she may have with the game.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by Marauders

I ask each community member to post any constructive criticisms he or she may have with the game.

I don't feel like going back and reading all 119 pages to see if this has been mentioned before, so forgive me if I'm only bringing up something that's been talked about before, but as a prospective consumer, I think my biggest criticism is that the game STILL appears to be an absolute fucking trainwreck.

I suppose that's not that constructive though.

Yeah, I guess I've got nothin'. Sorry.

[Toddzilla]

You fucking asshole - you got some nerve calling Ant "Spinmeister" when you've been the one dodging questions, giving incomplete non-answers, and basically being a blind company shill for a product you *know* sucks.

Originally Posted by marauders

Ah yes, compare the game to Madden when it comes to graphics, compare to FOF when it comes to GM features, but ignore the strengths of the game when the others are missing those features.

YOU are the one making the comparisons. I don't think anyone here in their right mind claimed MF was comparable to any of those games. And if MF pales in comparison to Madden graphically, and pales in comparison to FOF statistically and managerially, *what exactly does MF do football-wise that is better than anything out there?*

Originally Posted by marauders

There are free agents, so there is free agency.

Originally Posted by marauders

By your definition of true free agnecy. I see.
Tell me this, does FOF run true plays? Does the game actually go through the physics of the men in space on a gamefield interacting with each other and a ball in motion? Does it really do more than take the statistics already given and redistribute them by formulas that guarantee the outcomes are similar to the original statistics? Is that true football? Are FOF, Football Mogul, and other text games really true football games at all?

This is the single biggest piece of horseshit spin, non-answer you've ever managed to spit out. You know, I know, my cat knows that *Free Agency* means a player that is available on the open market to sign a contract with any team. Without *contracts* and a way for teams to *offer contracts*, it isn't free agency. Free Agency and an economic model are synonymous. It isn't Ant's definition, it is THE definition. Just because MF calls it Free-agency doesn't make it so.

And yes, FOF, FM are *really* football games, because they are (1) games that (2) simulate football. MF also meets that criteria, albeit barely.

Originally Posted by marauders

The CPU drafts by the team profile it is using.

If you don't know the answer, or are too embarrassed to say, just say "No, I cannot elaborate". The question was *how well*, not *how.

Originally Posted by marauders

It is an intervening variable whether you chose to ignore it or not.

It matters if you're related to the developer I suppose. If they used 2x as many developers on Civilization 5 or CoH as expected, would that make the game only half as good, or half as valuable? If Daivd is going to (over)charge for his game, then the "poor me I'm only one guy" shit doesn't matter when the game sucks. And oh by the way, Jim and Marcus and Shaun all got it right.

Originally Posted by marauders

Again, I am here to answer questions and provide information and debunk myths....

I am fair and honest about what the game will do and what it will not do

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA - uh, no. You haven't and you're not.

[cartman]

Woot!
150,000 views!

I would venture to guess that this thread alone has generated more ad revenue for GameSpy than MaxFB has generated sales-wise for Matrix.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by cartman

I would venture to guess that this thread alone has generated more ad revenue for GameSpy than MaxFB has generated sales-wise for Matrix.

This thread had drifted far away from its true comedy roots. Thanks for bringing us back.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

*what exactly does MF do football-wise that is better than anything out there?*

It allows people to create completely fanciful football universes with completely fanciful rulesets and completely fanciful "human" characteristics. The MF and the FOF crowd are never going to see eye-to-eye on this game because they have totally different goals. The FOF crowd wants as close to an NFL recreation as possible. FOF comes extremely close to that. Madden even comes reasonably close. MF could probably come close if you are willing to put in many, many, MANY hours tweaking everything. Our friend the Stat Freak put in over 16 hours for a 12 team league and is still nowhere close to playing a game. Recreating the NFL with MF would probably take 50-100 man hours.

The point is that MF doesn't try to recreate anything. It appears to be a basic toolset which lets people create a visual representation of what their view of football would be. It is fanciful arcade football in the vein of Blitz or Cyberball. If the game was marketed that way, there would probably be a lot less grief coming from this board. The game isn't really designed to simulate different football leagues (like it is often touted). It just gives the ability to adjust everything to let players see if they can recreate a recognizable league.

I still say that if they could fix the stats so that they all follow the rules of math, market the game by saying that you could customize the rules to to create leagues "similar to" the NFL or CFL or whatever, and dropped the price to about $20, there would be very few complaints from around here. The game looks (and as I understand plays) like the product of an individual amateur developer. If it was marketed and priced accordingly, people might support it.

[SunDevil]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

*what exactly does MF do football-wise that is better than anything out there?*

Uniform design? Beer Tents?


I know, I am not helping.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I still say that if they could fix the stats so that they all follow the rules of math, market the game by saying that you could customize the rules to to create leagues "similar to" the NFL or CFL or whatever, and dropped the price to about $20, there would be very few complaints from around here. The game looks (and as I understand plays) like the product of an individual amateur developer. If it was marketed and priced accordingly, people might support it.

Very well said - and not to take anything away from it, but thats pretty much spot on to what 90% of us have been saying from the outset.

However, it turned out that the developer was a pompous ass who denigrated text-sim players and developers, missed his release date by a presidential term of office, released an unplayable game, and still charges twice what Madden costs.

Plus, he couldn't even spell his own name right.

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by sttfrk

The graphics are most assuredly not as bad as you guys make them out to be. I think they are good and equal to Madden 2003, if not 2004. Unlike 95% (99%?) of you guys, I've played the game. I've readily admitted its faults and tried to correct the incredible amount of inaccuracies that have been posted here. The game is not perfect and never will be. It will always have faults that will require some work to overcome due to the fact it lets you play several different styles of football (college, pro, indoor, CFL).

It really is not that much different than the first or second version of any other game. I am not sure why it is vilified here as much as it is... nor do I care. Continue to ignore everyone that has the game and is trying to post their experiences and correct the grossly misleading statements that are being made. After all, it is more fun that way...

I have no real interest in arguing with anyone or trying to change anyone's opinion. I thought maybe there was some real interest in learning about the game in its current state, how it has improved, and what it can do. I realize now, that can never happen inside this thread.

I may still come in here and beat my head against the wall trying to give facts and actual in-game experiences from time to time, but will not continue to spend as much doing so as I did today.

Given this crew's views and willingness to dismiss the facts, I can understand why there isn't a demo available. I hope that people actually interested in the game won't find this thread until after they have found accurate and reliable information.

Even in its current state, the game still ranks ahead of FOF, Madden, and Second and Ten in my book. I don't expect anyone else to hold that opinion, but for me the game allows me to customize and configure the game in ways that aren't possible with any other game. Best of luck with your unabashed bashing, even if there is little to no truth in it...

I've known stat freak for about 7 years, so he's definitely not Jeinfier Wninters. He's a pretty good guy.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Very well said - and not to take anything away from it, but thats pretty much spot on to what 90% of us have been saying from the outset.

However, it turned out that the developer was a pompous ass who denigrated text-sim players and developers, missed his release date by a presidential term of office, released an unplayable game, and still charges twice what Madden costs.

Plus, he couldn't even spell his own name right.

I agree that I didn't say anything new. It is funny to me how this thread will die and people will generally come to the feeling that MF is an overpriced game which isn't ready for prime time yet and should be labeled as a version 0.7 or something like that...but still is a reasonably decent start to something that could be interesting. There is the occasional joke posted about a strange stat calculation, but that is about it.

Then at some point a MF fan will show up and try to "correct" people about all of our misconceptions. They call the game "good with flaws" and we respond that there are too many flaws to consider it good. Then they say that we are wrong and the game is really very good...to which we respond that it is really very bad. They eventually claim that for what it tries to do, the game is great and we respond that it is actually crap. Everybody keeps exaggerating their own opinions in an effort to sway the other side.

Pretty soon everyone trying to convince us will decide that we are mean and not willing to give the game a fair chance and leave. Our opinions will drift back to calling the game not read for release and not worth $50 and the cycle will begin again.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Pretty soon everyone trying to convince us will decide that we are mean and not willing to give the game a fair chance and leave. Our opinions will drift back to calling the game not read for release and not worth $50 and the cycle will begin again.

Which is why this thread is the best thing on the internets EVAR!

[WSUCougar]

Let's harness the harshness and f-bombs, please. Keep it civil. It'd be a pity to lock such an epic thread.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by BrianD

...It appears to be a basic toolset which lets people create a visual representation of what their view of football would be...

Now if this application was nothing more than a way to visually represent data from FOF game logs or any text sim game log for that matter, I would be a buyer. That way he would only have to focus on improving the 3D models and camera views and adding utilities to take screen and video captures. In fact, if it had these features and it was a paid add-on, I would most likely jump at it.

As it stands now, we can do screen captures with Madden, but if there was an ability to to let the logs control the outcome of the play, it would be a great investment for those in online leagues and for those who want to see their games played out visually play by play.

But, of course, a few bridges have already been burned, so I don't see this happening anytime soon.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Let's harness the harshness and f-bombs, please. Keep it civil. It'd be a pity to lock such an epic thread.

who's going to? you? i laugh in your face. i don't know if you're one of the quasi-mods here, but rest assured your thread-locking ability would be taken away much like jbmagic's edit button.

[Marauders]

Shaggyra stated: I will admit an addiction to this game, but some of the flaws pointed out here are valid. Some were valid and have been fixed. Some I don't believe were ever valid.

I agree on all points. To discuss these points was my stated objective for posting here.

I have been told by independent game developers that it is a losing proposition to even try to discuss the game here, which was sound advice. I just believe that there are people who are football game fans that may come to this board and see this topic that want to actually know what the game does, does not do, and what may be needed or planned for the future.

Cringer stated: I actually will look forward to what you will bring to the table. You seem to have been pretty skeptical at some point.

The beta team is made of of game players that have been constructively critical of the game in the past. Shaggyra, nmleague, and myself have posted to the public board many times when we have seen things we thought were not right. We do that in the beta forum as well. Counter to what some people here would have you believe, we are not just a bunch of fan boys. In fact, I have pushed to get Shaggyra, nmleague, and other game players that had been constructively critical, and active on the public board bringing up issues, into the beta program to help isolate and resolve game issues.

What I find ironic is that I am likely the most critical person this game title has had on the old board, new board, and in beta, but when I come here and ask that this game be discussed, I have to run through pages of personal insults and drival. I don't respect that, I often just have to ignore those posts.

People active in the Maximum Football community, and other beta team members, know that I am not one to sugar-coat problems, and I am active in addressing game issues like no other person outside of David himself.

Shaggyra and myself have been consistent in asking for features to allow better playbooks, more realistic gameplay, and better user ability to control game constants to create a league that has statistics that more closely reflect the type of league the game player wants.

The key here is that we recognized that Maximum Football can be a very good game if David was given some support and input from the football gaming community. We saw the issues in the game, stated the issues, and have worked to help correct them as best we can.

That last line still bugs me though. NDA with Matrix. $50 for a game still under development is all that says to me. It's just plain dumb man.

Open up any game manual for an ongoing PC game title. There is always a list of beta testers, development team members, and QA people that continually work on it. To get from 1.0 to 2.0 to 3.0, there has to be beta members willing to test new code and new features.

Madden certainly has beta team members, FOF does as well. It would be plainly dumb not to. Please understand that this is standard practice for game developers.

[Passacaglia]

What I find ironic is that I am likely the most critical person this game title has had on the old board, new board, and in beta, but when I come here and ask that this game be discussed, I have to run through pages of personal insults and drival. I don't respect that, I often just have to ignore those posts.

Well, none of us own the game, so since we can't discuss it, all that's left is drivel.

By the way, nice bump.

[st.cronin]

Oh God he's back.

[Passacaglia]

Seriously. I think people here have been pretty clear about what we would like to see improved. I guess you've told us those things are improved, in a version you can't tell us about. Great. Wake us up when you can.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Seriously. I think people here have been pretty clear about what we would like to see improved. I guess you've told us those things are improved, in a version you can't tell us about. Great. Wake us up when you can.

Even if he did the 3 people that care probably already are aware of the Matrix board.

Maufrauders gets off on this thread. Although who doesn't.

[Atocep]

Logging on to FOFC and seeing new posts in this thread makes me feel like a 5 year old on Christmas morning.

EF27 should recommend this thread to any patients he has with depression. There's no way you can read this thread and not feel better about yourself.

[cartman]

Speaking of, my cousin's wife bought MaxFB for him off of eBay for Christmas. He sent me an email asking me if I had heard of this game, and if I could help him get it working "right". I sent him the link to this thread, and he told me he got a lot more enjoyment out of reading this thread than he got out of the game, which is going back up on eBay.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by cartman

Speaking of, my cousin's wife bought MaxFB for him off of eBay for Christmas. He sent me an email asking me if I had heard of this game, and if I could help him get it working "right". I sent him the link to this thread, and he told me he got a lot more enjoyment out of reading this thread than he got out of the game, which is going back up on eBay.

That is so awesome.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by cartman

Speaking of, my cousin's wife bought MaxFB for him off of eBay for Christmas. He sent me an email asking me if I had heard of this game, and if I could help him get it working "right". I sent him the link to this thread, and he told me he got a lot more enjoyment out of reading this thread than he got out of the game, which is going back up on eBay.

If it sells for cheap, I'd be interested.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Oh God he's back.

Guess who's back, back again, Marauders back, so tell a friend.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Well, none of us own the game, so since we can't discuss it, all that's left is drivel.

Actually, there has been discussion. There is just a lot of bloat here. It is like an NFL board where people work to get their post counts up on gameday threads.

Seriously. I think people here have been pretty clear about what we would like to see improved. I guess you've told us those things are improved, in a version you can't tell us about.

Fair enough, but people here want NFL stats, better graphics, GM, commissioner, head to head play, uber scheduler, and other features that can not be all upgraded at one time, and they want it done without a beta team. It is pretty clear that there are people here that want the graphics of Madden, the GM features of FOF, and the gameplay of an NFL quality control simulator. I can honestly say that there is no secret build in beta that will do all of that, but isn't that a bit much to ask for?

[Atocep]

This thread is getting to the point where it could use a table of contents.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by cartman

Speaking of, my cousin's wife bought MaxFB for him off of eBay for Christmas. He sent me an email asking me if I had heard of this game, and if I could help him get it working "right". I sent him the link to this thread, and he told me he got a lot more enjoyment out of reading this thread than he got out of the game, which is going back up on eBay.

Did you point him to the Matrix Game board?

If this is real situation, please ask him to PM me or post questions on the board over there. Any copy from ebay is likely old, and he will need the password for a registered copy in order to patch it to the latest version. That is, if the game was a legal copy.

On a side note, I guess the next time someone asks me a question about Front Office Football, it would be a good idea to send him to a Madden board to get his questions answered. We should be constistent in our logic.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Actually, there has been discussion. There is just a lot of bloat here. It is like an NFL board where people work to get their post counts up on gameday threads.



Fair enough, but people here want NFL stats, better graphics, GM, commissioner, head to head play, uber scheduler, and other features that can not be all upgraded at one time, and they want it done without a beta team. It is pretty clear that there are people here that want the graphics of Madden, the GM features of FOF, and the gameplay of an NFL quality control simulator. I can honestly say that there is no secret build in beta that will do all of that, but isn't that a bit much to ask for?

Sorry, that crack about none of us owning the game wasn't an attempt to be serious -- it was just more drivel. Besides, it's not true after all -- cartman's cousin owns the game.

People here want stats that are within the realm of possibility, and would *like* better graphics -- I don't remember much about the others. I don't think head to head play would be a big selling point to this community, and I don't know what you mean by "uber" scheduler -- either a scheduler works or it doesn't. As for a beta team -- the other games you mentioned had beta teams work with the game *before* its release, not after. I'm not saying Maximum Football didn't have beta testers before the game was released -- I'm saying that since the game is in beta testing -- and from all you've said, it sounds like a LOT of beta testing is being done -- it surely can't be called a completed game.

I think you're really exagerrating the expectations of this board. You've mentioned several times that people are expecting other things from MF, without mentioning what it's good at. In the 120 or so pages of this thread, I guess I've forgotten -- what does it do that's good?

[Julio Riddols]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Even if he did the 3 people that care probably already are aware of the Matrix board.

Maufrauders gets off on this thread. Although who doesn't.

Skeet skeet skeet.

[rkmsuf]

what does it do that's good?

1. beer tent

2. teleportation

3. facilitates use of benny hill music

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Marauders

It is pretty clear that there are people here that want the graphics of Madden, the GM features of FOF, and the gameplay of an NFL quality control simulator. I can honestly say that there is no secret build in beta that will do all of that, but isn't that a bit much to ask for?

There are plenty of mentions in this thread of people saying they'd be more than happy with a version of the 2-D gameplay from FM/WWSM used for a football game.

You also seem to either intentionally leave out or simply gloss over the glaring omissions of trying to have any kind of semblance of the US amature aka NCAA football played. More than a few of us here would enjoy greatly this kind of play. But without being able to replicate the field structure or use the play designer to create the style of plays used by a great number of current and classic teams (which is one of the differentiators of MaxFB), the option to create a league using Amature rules in the game is pretty much worthless.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Fair enough, but people here want NFL stats, better graphics, GM, commissioner, head to head play, uber scheduler, and other features that can not be all upgraded at one time, and they want it done without a beta team. It is pretty clear that there are people here that want the graphics of Madden, the GM features of FOF, and the gameplay of an NFL quality control simulator. I can honestly say that there is no secret build in beta that will do all of that, but isn't that a bit much to ask for?

There is no way you got that out of this thread. It is a total straw man. What would go a long way toward impressing people is if "new features" were kept on hold until obvious bugs are cleared up. Nobody is impressed by smarter AI being developed who can handle a hand-off to a tight end when the stats still show more fumbles lost than actually occurred and other obvious bugs.

David seems to have a grand plan which he keeps working toward (benefit of the doubt) while trying to squash bugs (again, benefit of the doubt). Stat calculation bugs generally are due to some bad math somewhere and should be easy to fix. Not fixing those immediately in a tiny patch seems lazy. If he got rid of all of the obvious bugs, people wouldn't have as much to pick on. And really, anyone that has done development knows that tracking down the source of bugs while adding new features is very difficult. You need to concentrate on one or the other.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Oh God he's back.

And..he's gone. What a fun hour that was.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Marauders

On a side note, I guess the next time someone asks me a question about Front Office Football, it would be a good idea to send him to a Madden board to get his questions answered. We should be constistent in our logic.

If there is a thread on a Madden board that has inspired over 1,000 posts in a single thread about FOF, please point me in that direction as I think it would be a very fun read.

WHAZ THIS THERE NO GRAPHIC THIS GAME SUCKS

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by BrianD

And really, anyone that has done development knows that tracking down the source of bugs while adding new features is very difficult. You need to concentrate on one or the other.

I think it's clear that he did concentrate on one, the wrong one. This "game" had a ton of bugs and features that were completely broken, and instead of fixing them, he redid the graphics engine so he could play around with shaders and add inflatable helmets to the field among doing a bunch of other things that in no way fixed any of the problems it had on release. That's all I really need to know.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by sabotai

I think it's clear that he did concentrate on one, the wrong one. This "game" had a ton of bugs and features that were completely broken, and instead of fixing them, he redid the graphics engine so he could play around with shaders and add inflatable helmets to the field among doing a bunch of other things that in no way fixed any of the problems it had on release. That's all I really need to know.

I think that is a major reason people around here enjoy jumping on the game so much. I can understand not fixing all of the bugs before the next major release - most games do this. I can't understand including bug fixes into major releases, or ignoring visible (and probably easy to fix) bugs in favor of new feature addition. This tells me the guy is either lazy (big problem), an amateur (not a problem if output is appropriately priced), or a big-picture guy with little attention to detail. I could even see a big-picture guy finding a pretty decent market for his product, but not on this board. The fact that we don't complain too loudly about no graphics in FOF but do complain about 440 rushes per season shows that we care more about the details.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I think that is a major reason people around here enjoy jumping on the game so much. I can understand not fixing all of the bugs before the next major release - most games do this. I can't understand including bug fixes into major releases, or ignoring visible (and probably easy to fix) bugs in favor of new feature addition.

And it isn't just simple bug fixes. Even with Marauders and others putting their best spin on it, it sounds like there are fundamental things in MaxFB that are broken and it sounds like Marauders, from his own account, has to try and twist Daivd's are just to get him to think about fixing them.

The fact that we don't complain too loudly about no graphics in FOF but do complain about 440 rushes per season shows that we care more about the details.

But we also put up with this, and other statiscial and game play absurdities, for many years because FOF has always been an otherwise solid game. If MaxFB mostly worked, and only had a few quirks, some bugs and even a few absurdities (like other popular games on this board, Football Pro and NFL2k5 being two), it would have a decent following on this board. But since it's been an ongoing train wreck since long before it was even released, it's open season.

[Atocep]

The comparison to discussing FOF on the madden boards is way off base. FOF does a very good job of doing what it sets out to do and doesn't stray too far away from its strengths. It certainly has its weaknesses, but they don't detract much from what it sets out to accomplish.

No one has any idea exactly what Maximum Football is trying to do at this point. The things it was originally supposed to do, it doesn't do well and features continue to get crammed into the game as if it were a developer's sandbox to toy around with ideas and a way for Matrix to milk money out of people with blind faith.

This is David's first attempt at making a football game as far as I know. He would have been smart to stick to something simple and straightfoward to focus on and build from there either though major updates or an entirely new version of the game, especially when you take into consideration the limited staff he's working with.

You can't just keep throwing features at people and hope that one day a game forms out of it. But then again, we have to actually play the game or our opinion doesn't mean much. Could someone please direct me to where I can download the demo for Maximum Football?