WW LII -- Clue (SOCIALITES WIN)

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Understood. But regardless, assuming two wolves can hurt us. It does us no harm to assume three at a minimum. If it turns out there are less of them around, great. But I don't want to make big village plans based on the idea that there are only two when the numbers alone suggest there are likely as not more. So I say let's quash that idea real quick before we start thinking that way, you know?

Oh I wasn't doing that at all. I just noticed a few different people basing math and everything around 3 wolves and was curious if I just missed something is all. Everyone is all touchy about my posts this game, when I even said before the game I was going to try to be alot less agressive at people (and feel I haven't attacked anyone yet!)

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I don't really think its fair to say I've been back and forth on things. I've been open about my thoughts, I've been vocal about my thoughts.. but I've all along said we should reveal murderer information (I was the first to suggest it and first to do it). I originally pushed for revealing all informaiton and backed off on the rooms and weapons now pushing for that to not be revealed and have very clearly stated my reasons why. You (and pretty much almost everyone else) seem to disagree with me, thats fine.... you can disagree with me, but at least pretend to understand where I am coming from

I don't think I've been back and forth on anything, I've changed my mind about one major thing all game and given very detailed reasons why. I've dropped that whole discussion understanding that you all are playing the game in a way that I don't think the GM intended, but I am holding no hard feelings about it. Please show me the same respect

Oh there are no hard feelings, but until you're cleared you're a suspect and I have to consider you as such. Too bad the seer(s) can't coordinate, we could validate one person completely every night...

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Oh I wasn't doing that at all. I just noticed a few different people basing math and everything around 3 wolves and was curious if I just missed something is all. Everyone is all touchy about my posts this game, when I even said before the game I was going to try to be alot less agressive at people (and feel I haven't attacked anyone yet!)

you're being a very good boy alan.

*give alan a cookie*

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Hrm, I discount the idea that the wolves have any abilities beyond all of them having the ability to kill. Pass is gerneraly pretty thorough and he makes no mention of undisclosed roles or role abilities within the rules. And given the fact that you're position on the victory conditions is so RAW (Rules As Written), I have to wonder why you would be reading things into the game on one issue and patently refusing to read more into them on another.

Actually, your point here is an excellent one, and made me go back to look at the rule page. It does very clearly show what the wolf pm looked like. I'll have to admit being wrong about that, which is fine I don't mind being wrong on things. I think you are misunderstanding me though, I'm not really "RAW" I just guess I'm a bit ... "disgruntled" so to speak about how people are treating the victory conditions is all. I'm trying my best to not let that alter my feelings on how I view various people however. Pass very clearly stated several times the rule conditions which is why that is such a strong point for me (which I feel very alone on).

As for your other point in the other post about me not being cleared yet, I fully realize that.. Remember I brought up the idea to vote for those people (including myself). Even if everyone votes me today, it would then narrow down the odds that much further on who the murderer is. If I die today, you then will be left knowing who the murderer likely is (or know that a wolf lied about it and has left a trail to follow)

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

you're being a very good boy alan.

*give alan a cookie*

Thanks

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Actually, your point here is an excellent one, and made me go back to look at the rule page. It does very clearly show what the wolf pm looked like. I'll have to admit being wrong about that, which is fine I don't mind being wrong on things. I think you are misunderstanding me though, I'm not really "RAW" I just guess I'm a bit ... "disgruntled" so to speak about how people are treating the victory conditions is all. I'm trying my best to not let that alter my feelings on how I view various people however. Pass very clearly stated several times the rule conditions which is why that is such a strong point for me (which I feel very alone on).

As for your other point in the other post about me not being cleared yet, I fully realize that.. Remember I brought up the idea to vote for those people (including myself). Even if everyone votes me today, it would then narrow down the odds that much further on who the murderer is. If I die today, you then will be left knowing who the murderer likely is (or know that a wolf lied about it and has left a trail to follow)

Hmmm...not sure if this first paragraph is in reference to the individual victory as opposed to the team victory, but does rehashing that really further us here? Haven't we talked that out? I think those of us ignoring the individual victory and those of us who only "win" when they personally win aren't going to agree period, and wasting more time on it is, well, wasting more time on it. I say let's move on from that one, too, and not bring it up unless it's relevant again.

Really, you yourself have pointed out several times that you feel very alone on that subject. Yes, well, fine and good, sorry you feel that way, let's get past this and find us some baddies.

[Telle]

Pass - can you please clear up a bit of contention for us? If a correct accusation is made and thus there is an individual victory, does this mean that the individual stole the victory from the village and the village in fact lost? Or is it ok for us to view an individual victory as a victory for the "good guys" and thus not a loss for the village?

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Telle

Pass - can you please clear up a bit of contention for us? If a correct accusation is made and thus there is an individual victory, does this mean that the individual stole the victory from the village and the village in fact lost? Or is it ok for us to view an individual victory as a victory for the "good guys" and thus not a loss for the village?

Yes, if a correct accusation is made, an individual victory is just a victory for the correct accuser(s), and no one else. If you want to view someone else's victory as a victory for you, I can't stop you, but I thought you all agreed to play the game I was running., not the game as you see fit.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Telle

Pass - can you please clear up a bit of contention for us? If a correct accusation is made and thus there is an individual victory, does this mean that the individual stole the victory from the village and the village in fact lost? Or is it ok for us to view an individual victory as a victory for the "good guys" and thus not a loss for the village?

The thing is Telle, some of us don't need an answer from Pass. In fact, we are essentially going against the victory conditions simply because of who we are. It doesn't matter to me (nor Render, I believe) what Pass says--if the wolves/murderer don't win, we do.

And maybe I am the one alone now?!? Does anyone see any value in further pursuing this line of thinking? If so, I guess I'll quit fighting against the tide, let you all work it out for yourselves, and I'll wait around til we start playing the game again.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Really, you yourself have pointed out several times that you feel very alone on that subject. Yes, well, fine and good, sorry you feel that way, let's get past this and find us some baddies.

Is it too much to ask for people to consider my side? Fine, I'm busy with work for a few hours, I'll come back later this evening. I'm guessing my point is made pretty clearly and I don't really have anything to add so people who want to vote for me, go for it, if you don't then don't. I encourage people to follow my idea on voting among the uncleared as it gives us the most information (even if the information is that we are all three villagers and a wolf lied about someone else, that is still valuable information)

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Thanks

they are homemade.

if i have the time in a couple hours i want to go back through the list of non-murderers that we have verified and assign people to "view" them again tonight, if you will let me call it that. try to get coverage on the 3 who havn't been viewed and then also get double-verification on other people to enable us to have a better idea of where to look for wolves if they have deceived us or will attempt to deceive us.

i'm not strictly AGAINST a lynch of one of the 3 names based on the fact that they havn't been cleared and playing the odds, but I think it would be prudent to realize that if we do that and we push hard we may end up forcing someone to reveal quite early, when theoretically at least, tomorrow we should have a much more clear picture.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Yes, if a correct accusation is made, an individual victory is just a victory for the correct accuser(s), and no one else. If you want to view someone else's victory as a victory for you, I can't stop you, but I thought you all agreed to play the game I was running., not the game as you see fit.

Sorry, Pass, not meaning any disrespect to your game or your rules. But that's how my thinking runs on these things.

It's just like no reveal on death games. I can't stand them. I'll still play, because I like to play, but I hate games with rules like that. There, I can't avoid it. I guess here I sorta can.

[Telle]

Well I guess that settles that. So why did we spend a day bickering about the victory conditions instead of asking for a clarification?

So then, it would make sense from this point forward to only share person clues so that the village as a whole can win.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Is it too much to ask for people to consider my side? Fine, I'm busy with work for a few hours, I'll come back later this evening. I'm guessing my point is made pretty clearly and I don't really have anything to add so people who want to vote for me, go for it, if you don't then don't. I encourage people to follow my idea on voting among the uncleared as it gives us the most information (even if the information is that we are all three villagers and a wolf lied about someone else, that is still valuable information)

See, the key thing here is your assumption we didn't read your thoughts on this before, consider them and rejected them. That's not true at all. And clearly some are you listening to you. There is certainly no consensus on this. Far as I know, Render and I are the only ones to publically come out so strong against the individual victory. So I'm not sure why you think you're alone, in the minority or being ignored. I would say it's clearly the opposite.

As for voting for you, this doesn't relate to that (which is why I want to move on; this issue is not intra-game related, IMO). Your stance on this doesn't affect how I feel about you as a potential wolf, and I'm not sure I see how one connects to the other.

Personally, I'm pretty sure you're not a wolf.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Sorry, Pass, not meaning any disrespect to your game or your rules. But that's how my thinking runs on these things.

It's just like no reveal on death games. I can't stand them. I'll still play, because I like to play, but I hate games with rules like that. There, I can't avoid it. I guess here I sorta can.

In every game you can create your own set of personal goals, and judge yourself as to whether you have accomplished them. However, as the GM, I decide who wins the game. You can play how you want, but that won't change the rules of the game. I'm not trying to be mean about it, or anything -- I'm only responding to posts where I'm addressed, so as to affect gameplay as little as possible.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Telle

Well I guess that settles that. So why did we spend a day bickering about the victory conditions instead of asking for a clarification?

So then, it would make sense from this point forward to only share person clues so that the village as a whole can win.

We weren't bickering about victory conditions. We were bickering about revealing information. That is very pertinent to the game.

Don't know that it makes sense to withhold the other information either. Not sure how that helps anyone.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Sorry, Pass, not meaning any disrespect to your game or your rules. But that's how my thinking runs on these things.

It's just like no reveal on death games. I can't stand them. I'll still play, because I like to play, but I hate games with rules like that. There, I can't avoid it. I guess here I sorta can.

Yeah I agree with you here. The way the rules were written left it kind of open-ended and thus open to interpretation.. and I think for many of us we just naturally felt any "good guy" win was a good thing. But since Pass clarified that an individual win is a village loss, we need to work within those parameters now. Ah well.

[Telle]

[quote=Chief Rum;1526112Don't know that it makes sense to withhold the other information either. Not sure how that helps anyone.[/QUOTE]

Basically, sharing room and weapon information is a liability for the village, because it can lead to the village losing to an individual villager. And the only good that can come from sharing that information is the potential for catching the murderer or a wolf in a lie.. and I don't think that makes it worth the risk.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

In every game you can create your own set of personal goals, and judge yourself as to whether you have accomplished them. However, as the GM, I decide who wins the game. You can play how you want, but that won't change the rules of the game. I'm not trying to be mean about it, or anything -- I'm only responding to posts where I'm addressed, so as to affect gameplay as little as possible.

Understood. Not saying the winner as defined in the rules is not the winner. Just, as you say, establishing that meeting that individual goal means little to me so long as the village wins. Not to say I wouldn't go for it if I found a possible individual win sitting right in front of me. But it's not what I am aiming for.

It's my view in approaching this game that if we all hold back our information, we are dooming ourselves to losing as a whole. The individual goal is a difficult and unlikely achievement for a socialite and attempting it brings with it a much larger chance of losing completely to the bad guys. At least in encouraging a village win (even if that "win" is merely in our mind and not by the rules), we can mitigate the chances of the bad guys winning, though likely at the cost of losing our own personal chance at an individual victory.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Telle

Basically, sharing room and weapon information is a liability for the village, because it can lead to the village losing to an individual villager. And the only good that can come from sharing that information is the potential for catching the murderer or a wolf in a lie.. and I don't think that makes it worth the risk.

Guess I can see that. The accusation has to be made public, though, so I think that works against it some. If someone is certain enough to make such an accusation, under penalty of death if wrong, it will be up to the rest of us to decide if we will join in and "share" in the victory or the loss.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Understood. Not saying the winner as defined in the rules is not the winner. Just, as you say, establishing that meeting that individual goal means little to me so long as the village wins. Not to say I wouldn't go for it if I found a possible individual win sitting right in front of me. But it's not what I am aiming for.

It's my view in approaching this game that if we all hold back our information, we are dooming ourselves to losing as a whole. The individual goal is a difficult and unlikely achievement for a socialite and attempting it brings with it a much larger chance of losing completely to the bad guys. At least in encouraging a village win (even if that "win" is merely in our mind and not by the rules), we can mitigate the chances of the bad guys winning, though likely at the cost of losing our own personal chance at an individual victory.

This is exactly my view on the situation.

[SnDvls]

is there any value to sharing our who, what, where from last night?

[Telle]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

is there any value to sharing our who, what, where from last night?

Definite value to sharing "who". Right now I'm against sharing "what" and "where".

[RendeR]

I still advocate sharing everything, its the fastest and simplest way to either lynch the murderer or get the accusation and someone a win. The more info we put forth the quicker "someone" wins that is not the wolves or the murderer.

[path12]

Hmm. I have three wolf suspects that stand out to me pretty readily. I wonder if anyone else has seen what I did?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by path12

Hmm. I have three wolf suspects that stand out to me pretty readily. I wonder if anyone else has seen what I did?

wolf suspects hmm?

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

is there any value to sharing our who, what, where from last night?

It could give us insight into the random/non-random nature of reveals.

[DaddyTorgo]

telle...do you still have that pretty list that shows who has cleared who for people, and is it updated? I'd love to use it to go through and start my spreadsheet.

[oliegirl]

Sorry I've been MIA this morning, work has been insane. But things are calmed down now and I'm caught up on the morning's discussion.

I'm torn on the revealing of rooms...I see both points of view, so there isn't much I can weigh in on there. However...I do make the following suggestion...rather than trying to convince the other "side" to reveal or not to reveal, why don't we just table that discussion for now and work with the information we do have to try and figure out who the murderer is and who the wolves are?

I still have suspicions on Neon_Chaos, but also on st.cronin...since no one else is focusing on Neon right now, I'm going to officially cast my vote for st.croning...

VOTE ST.CRONIN

I feel strongly that we need to lynch someone tonight and think we should really open up that conversation.

Anyone agree/disagree???

[Telle]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

telle...do you still have that pretty list that shows who has cleared who for people, and is it updated? I'd love to use it to go through and start my spreadsheet.

Suspect - Day 1 - Day 2
Daddytorgo - Alan T -
Telle - Chief Rum -
Schmidty - RendeR -
Lathum - Barkeep49 -
saldana - Barkeep49 -
Jonathan Ezarik - oliegirl -
LoneStarGirl - Neon_Chaos -
oliegirl - Neon_Chaos -
SnDvls - Crim
path12 - SnDvls - LoneStarGirl (470)
RendeR - LoneStarGirl -
Neon_Chaos - Schmidty -
Barkeep49 - Schmidty - RendeR
Swaggs - Schmidty -
Crim - ntndeacon - Neon_Chaos
ntndeacon - - DaddyTorgo (475)
st.cronin - -
Chief Rum - -
Alan T - -

[DaddyTorgo]

telle. don't worry if you havn't. i'm a page back and updating as we speak.

[st.cronin]

This may sound self-serving, but I don't think there's anything useful about the "cleared" list. Think about it: The wolves know who the murderer is. They KNOW nobody else has him as a clue. Once they saw how yesterday was going, it would be the easiest thing in the world for one of them to put his name out there. And contrary to Render, I fully expect that they will be cooperating their efforts in these early days.

I'm not sure who I'm going to vote for, yet.

[Telle]

And if anybody can tell me how I can get that to format into nice columns for easy readability I would really appreciate it!

[st.cronin]

Barkeep49 was the first one to share two names, one of whom we know is cleared. The other, saldana, was the most vocal (and emotional) about not sharing clues yesterday. My first guess is that Barkeep is a wolf and saldana is the murderer.

vote Barkeep49

[DaddyTorgo]

i'll see about posting mine when i'm done with it.

got it all caught up.

cronin: if we double+triple up on people we decrease the chances of that lie slipping by...and if a wolf does lie about the murderer or someone else to try to frame them...we will catch it.

*light dawns*

guys/gals...by sharing ALL of our information and double/tripling up on things...we force the wolves to give us correct information to help us catch the villagers...otherwise they leave a trail as plain as day for us to follow!!

sndvls...you didn't share if you found out about someone last night :-(

[DaddyTorgo]

i'm willing to do up a schedule of who should double-down on who today...are people willing to follow, or will it be wasted effort?

[Passacaglia]

I still have suspicions on Neon_Chaos, but also on st.cronin...since no one else is focusing on Neon right now, I'm going to officially cast my vote for st.croning...

I type a 'g' after typing cronin, too, probably 50% of the time, then have to go back and delete it.

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Barkeep49 was the first one to share two names, one of whom we know is cleared. The other, saldana, was the most vocal (and emotional) about not sharing clues yesterday. My first guess is that Barkeep is a wolf and saldana is the murderer.

vote Barkeep49

Out of curiousity, why would you vote for your wolf-suspect before your murder-suspect? Do you not agree that it's more important to get rid of the murderer first?

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I type a 'g' after typing cronin, too, probably 50% of the time, then have to go back and delete it.

I didn't even notice I had...I'm usually super careful when I'm typing usernames because so many of them are not "normal" words

[path12]

I'm for going for the wolves. We are close enough on the murderer for Mr. Green to get that for us in the next day or so.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

Out of curiousity, why would you vote for your wolf-suspect before your murder-suspect? Do you not agree that it's more important to get rid of the murderer first?

Thanks for saving me the trouble of asking.

This is illogical. He's on the list of uncleared people. That's enough of a reason for me.

Vote st.cronin

[DaddyTorgo]

i'm about 5 minutes away from posting a "person-view" list for the night guys. just trying to puzzle out one last piece and then i will. should give us great coverage

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

sndvls...you didn't share if you found out about someone last night :-(

I didn't get a clue about my who (Alan) but did about my what (Revolver) my where is my actual clue I originally had.

[path12]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

I didn't get a clue about my who (Alan) but did about my what (Revolver) my where is my actual clue I originally had.

I had asked about Alan also.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by path12

I had asked about Alan also.

did you get any info on him?

did you use one of your original clues to help narrow down the possible answers that Pass would give you like I did?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

Out of curiousity, why would you vote for your wolf-suspect before your murder-suspect? Do you not agree that it's more important to get rid of the murderer first?

Well, there's been little to no talk of who the wolves might be. We'll have to worry about them eventually.

[path12]

Why are we so worried about the murderer right now? We're down to two there and we can trust Mr. Green to view one of them tonight, right? That's something that can easily wait until tomorrow instead of flipping a coin today.

I really think we should be focusing on the wolves right now. Let the FBI do their job. We're going to have two-three other people trying to kill tonight after all.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Right now we're looking at the following with no murder clearance in any way as yet:

Alan T
St Cronin
Chief Rum

I can clear alan t and daddy torgo as not being the murderer based on my initial pm, which, combinded with other thing leads me to the only conclusion....there is no way CR would have played the way he has if he were the murdered, so it has to be ST C.

vote st cronin

[path12]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

did you get any info on him?

did you use one of your original clues to help narrow down the possible answers that Pass would give you like I did?

No, I would have said if I had. I went with all unknowns last night.

[DaddyTorgo]

"People Views" for Tonight

ntndeacon VIEW DaddyTorgo
Barkeep49 VIEW Telle
ChiefRum VIEW Schmidty
Schmidty VIEW Saldana
AlanT VIEW LoneStarGirl
saldana VIEW oliegirl
Path12 VIEW RendeR
Telle VIEW Neon_Chaos
Crim VIEW Barkeep49
LoneStarGirl VIEW Swaggs
Swaggs VIEW Crim
SnDvls VIEW AlanT
DaddyTorgo VIEW ChiefRum

st.cronin - if not lynched, take the place of whoever was lynched and make their view

that should give us solid coverage of everyone. i am aware that path+sndvls+ntn are not slated for a 2nd viewing.