WW Small Game IX- The Cold War !! game over CIA win

[MollyMurphy]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I don't know what to make of Molly, either, Alan. There's a group of 4 players that haven't really done much but vote.

Chief Rum
Molly Murphy
path12
saldana

I know I have not been on a ton. As I said at the beginning of the game, I was travelling Monday through Wednesday for work. I am also super busy during the day at work so I basically get a little time to read through, make some opinions, post them, vote, and then get on an airplane or back in a meeting. I know it has been a little odd. That is why I have not been around at night to change my votes after I make them.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by MollyMurphy

I know I have not been on a ton. As I said at the beginning of the game, I was travelling Monday through Wednesday for work. I am also super busy during the day at work so I basically get a little time to read through, make some opinions, post them, vote, and then get on an airplane or back in a meeting. I know it has been a little odd. That is why I have not been around at night to change my votes after I make them.

I think my biggest issue with you isn't your inability to change the votes but instead your decisions in the first place.

Day one you voted ntndeacon with no explanation why him. (ok no big deal, day one vote.. we like explanations, but we'll let it slide)

Day two you vote for bulletsponge the bodyguard. (Hard to really complain about this since Bullet really didn't help anyone out there). You did however push harder at bullet than you had the previous day.

Then on day 3 you seemed to come pretty strong at me over the issue about Saldana's introduction. You said I pushed really hard, when in fact I hadn't pushed really hard. I tossed it out for conversation and didn't even make Saldana the subject of the lie detector test. I have my reservations about Saldana, but likewise your twisting of that seemed a bit like trying to catch the cart before I hook the horse up to it. You said it was something little, but in day 2 sometimes we have to start with something little on people.

Then it was when I tossed out the curveball saying that I likely was going to scan my #1 suspect (path) that you suddenly responded by voting for me. Before I even put out the results of the test.



So I don't think my problem is that you wernt able to change votes because you were at the airport, or work stuff.. but moreso the points you are putting together seem to be completely the opposite of how I see it.

[ImTheCrew]

Originally Posted by path12

The PM you say you got. I didn't get one.

I'll tell you what. I've got body armor that I believe would protect me against a lynch. I will give that to someone on my trust list to show my intentions.

Ardent, you should be getting something from me soon.

any one else find this very supicous?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by ImTheCrew

any one else find this very supicous?

I pretty much feel neutral about it.. one of the following is true:

1) Path felt it was his best chance to get you all to vote for me by doing something seemingly a wolf wouldn't do.

2) Ardent is evil, and Path never did pass him the bodyarmor and they just said it

3) Path was trying to frame Ardent for us to go after him next.

Since 2 of the 3 possibilities make me feel better about Ardent, for now I'm not really thinking about it much. Guess we will have to wait and see on that.


One other thing that bothers me some is, yesterday wasn't the first time I brought Path's name up as a wolf. I did the day before as well. Several people had conversation both days after I mentioned him, yet those people never touched the subject on why I felt that way about Path. I was asked about many other people and not Path.

[ImTheCrew]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

No worries, I could pass on the body armor to you. Well, I mean, I could. I'll give the bad guys something to think about.

im pretty sure he got it

[Poli]

Heh, I was waiting for that.

[ImTheCrew]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

Heh, I was waiting for that.

and what do you have to say?

[Alan T]

I kinda want to stay on the Ardent discussion, trying to figure out where exactly to place Ardent in the trust scheme of things. Right now his comments about St.Cronin has kept st.cronin around a little longer. I find it unlikely that a wolf would protect a wolf there so openly. I find it possible St.cronin is a wolf and Ardent a good guy and Cronin just got lucky.. or I also find it possible Ardent is a wolf and Cronin is a good guy, and Ardent is playing the role of the Wolf saviour who comes to the aid of the wrongfully accused villager to protect them (knowing full well they aren't a wolf because he would be one)..

I think right now I am leaning towards thinking Ardent is a good guy, but he mentioned yesterday being visited by whom he thinks is the negotiator... I would assume someone would have been visited by them night 1 and then someone will be visited by them night 3 too.. Can anyone else say they have been visited by this person?

Either way, I don't think Ardent is a good vote today, and I would find pushing for one today to be highly suspicious (if that is the direction ImtheCrew is going).. I do think its stuff we should keep in mind though.

[ImTheCrew]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I kinda want to stay on the Ardent discussion, trying to figure out where exactly to place Ardent in the trust scheme of things. Right now his comments about St.Cronin has kept st.cronin around a little longer. I find it unlikely that a wolf would protect a wolf there so openly. I find it possible St.cronin is a wolf and Ardent a good guy and Cronin just got lucky.. or I also find it possible Ardent is a wolf and Cronin is a good guy, and Ardent is playing the role of the Wolf saviour who comes to the aid of the wrongfully accused villager to protect them (knowing full well they aren't a wolf because he would be one)..

I think right now I am leaning towards thinking Ardent is a good guy, but he mentioned yesterday being visited by whom he thinks is the negotiator... I would assume someone would have been visited by them night 1 and then someone will be visited by them night 3 too.. Can anyone else say they have been visited by this person?

Either way, I don't think Ardent is a good vote today, and I would find pushing for one today to be highly suspicious (if that is the direction ImtheCrew is going).. I do think its stuff we should keep in mind though.

alan who are you looking at today?
and i agree that it would be crazy for wolves to so openly help each other, but then again this could be exactly what they want us to think

and im not really leaning/pushing toward any vote right now but AE is still pretty low on my trust list

[Poli]

Originally Posted by ImTheCrew

and what do you have to say?

That it's a wolf play.

[MollyMurphy]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I think my biggest issue with you isn't your inability to change the votes but instead your decisions in the first place.

Day one you voted ntndeacon with no explanation why him. (ok no big deal, day one vote.. we like explanations, but we'll let it slide)

Get what you are saying...I have already posted that on day one I had to vote so early that I went with a name I recognized from my first game...lame reason, but that was really it. There was little to no chatter at that point, so that is how I chose.

[MollyMurphy]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I think my biggest issue with you isn't your inability to change the votes but instead your decisions in the first place.

Day two you vote for bulletsponge the bodyguard. (Hard to really complain about this since Bullet really didn't help anyone out there). You did however push harder at bullet than you had the previous day.

Here, I really pushed him before I voted. I had heavy suspicion based on his actions but knew that being the tie breaker may look bad if I was wrong. After pushing, he really gave me nothing to go on to think that he was not KGB. That is why I went with him.

[ImTheCrew]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

That it's a wolf play.

whats a wolf play? me bringing this up yo see what other people thoughts on it are?

[MollyMurphy]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I think my biggest issue with you isn't your inability to change the votes but instead your decisions in the first place.

Then on day 3 you seemed to come pretty strong at me over the issue about Saldana's introduction. You said I pushed really hard, when in fact I hadn't pushed really hard. I tossed it out for conversation and didn't even make Saldana the subject of the lie detector test. I have my reservations about Saldana, but likewise your twisting of that seemed a bit like trying to catch the cart before I hook the horse up to it. You said it was something little, but in day 2 sometimes we have to start with something little on people.

Then it was when I tossed out the curveball saying that I likely was going to scan my #1 suspect (path) that you suddenly responded by voting for me. Before I even put out the results of the test.

On yesterday's vote, I left as soon as I posted it for the airport and did not get home last night until 11:30 at night. I did not get to see anything that was happening on the scanning, etc....if I had been here, I absolutely would have rethought some of my actions and points. It was clear when you scanned him that he was the baddie...I saw some theories that you were lyingin to set him up, but since he was KGB, I am feeling better about you in my mind.

My biggest reason for voting for you was actually the day 1 vote switch. The Saldana thing was just another reason along w/ Narc's suspicions that pushed me to go with you.

[MollyMurphy]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

That it's a wolf play.

I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on this.

[MollyMurphy]

Lathum, it is almost noon, where are you?

[Lathum]

night results coming

[ImTheCrew]

Stay alive PLEASE!

[Lathum]

Youi all gather in the mess hall for breakfast, Finding a KGB agent yesterday has lifted your spirts. Things improve when you rrealize you are all present and accounted for. Could path have been working alone?

Day 4 has begun. Votes due by 9:00 PM EST

[Lathum]

sorry for the late results. According to Molly I got pretty banged up last night and was a moron. And an unresponsive on at that this morning

[MollyMurphy]

Originally Posted by Alan T

So by noon?

Wow, were you right on or what!

[Poli]

Why pass it on the armor on to me? Cause I'm on his "trusted" list. Hey, wow, look guys, AE was on path's trusted list. Must be a wolf.

As I said, it was a wolf play. Generally speaking, a wolf usually points those things out. I saw this coming a mile away. I believe Alan did as well, and I'm guessing Alan has something to say now that the night actions are over.

How did you like that armor?

[st.cronin]

Well, I guess conversion. I have a busy day, I still like ITC and saldana as possible kgb agents.

vote ImTheCrew

[Poli]

I might as well get mine out of the way as well.

Vote ITC

[ImTheCrew]

st cronin voting for me then AE following him, whats new?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

Why pass it on the armor on to me? Cause I'm on his "trusted" list. Hey, wow, look guys, AE was on path's trusted list. Must be a wolf.

As I said, it was a wolf play. Generally speaking, a wolf usually points those things out. I saw this coming a mile away. I believe Alan did as well, and I'm guessing Alan has something to say now that the night actions are over.

How did you like that armor?

It fit a little snug, and I don't know why you painted it orange, but thanks. Much appreciated. I'll try to figure out what to do with it during today.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by ImTheCrew

alan who are you looking at today?
and i agree that it would be crazy for wolves to so openly help each other, but then again this could be exactly what they want us to think

and im not really leaning/pushing toward any vote right now but AE is still pretty low on my trust list

I'm not really sure who I'm pushing for today. I kind of would like to see who has stuff to say (regarding the things I spoke about prior results as well as why we didn't have any deaths last night.

Until we understand what happened a bit better, i think its a bit early for me to push in one direction or another.

[saldana]

ok, i have a nice little circle of trust in my head right now, hopefully some other people have theirs as well and hopefully i am in there.

i do have one piece of news...my room was broken into last night...i have no idea who the thief was...during the theft my infrared goggles were stolen, so to anyone that can be out at night from here on in, be aware that the spies have the ability to see you in the hallway now, unless of course my stuff got stolen by a fellow agent.

i have to vote now and it will likely be the time i am on before the deadline, as i will be on a bit of a road trip for the remainder of the day.

i am putting my vote out for her because i havent liked her voting pattern at all to this point, and although she hasnt been any more quiet than i have, i can totally see Path telling her that the best strategy for her would be to remain as quiet as possible and go UTR

vote mollymurphy

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Chief,

Who do you think were most tied to Path so far this game and why? Also does anyone jump out at you as possibly being he mercenary?

path didn't really hit my radar much until you focused on him. As he himself said, he tends to be flexible and noncommittal to start games. He doesn't usually leap into things. It seems wolfish for those who don't know, but I had seen his style before, so I didn't think much of it. I think the ardent and vest thing was likely a ploy to frame ardent, although I am keeping it in the back of my mind for future reference.

My thoughts on the merc are that he/she is someone who doesn't know which side to go for, for fear he/she will help the wrong side and end up on the other side. Personally, I see advantages to coming strong one way or another as the merc, as if you end up there, you have helped your side, and if not, you have likely built up actions that will give that side reason to trust you. But I doubt the merc is being played that way. I think it's someone being quiet and waiting to see what happens, hiding a little like an UTR wolf. Best choices would be Barkeep, MollyMurphy, saldana and maybe ImTheCrew. I would think it unlikely that you, ardent or beargrowls are the merc. You have been too much in the action/opinionated. st.cronin I consider unlikely, although if he drew votes on Day One almost as an accident, the KGB might have not thought to check him. I am haviong a tougher time reading molson so far.

[Alan T]

I'm wondering if today is the day that I need to look back at St.Cronin finally. I know Ardent feels very good about him, but Ardent also relies alot on what he knows. I tend to think I believe what Ardent has said, but that in its own does not clear Cronin.

I think I have a few issues with how Cronin handled yesterday as well as some suspicions that I felt the day before. I need to leave for a bit but will be back later. I think right now I doubt I would vote for ImtheCrew, not sure what I think about Molly yet.. I think right now I am trying to piece together the Cronin, Chief Rum, Barkeep and Saldana group. I feel 2 or maybe 3 of them are probably friends... but I won't be suprised to find a wolf in that group. I know I said most of this yesterday, but I still don't like how Barkeep jumped in, I think right now I'm leaning at going back to Cronin now that I Have seen a few more pieces fall.

Oh Ardent, I think I know who visited you as they visited me as well last night. I do wonder though who they visited on night 1 and why we didn't hear about it before then.

Anyways back a bit later.

[molson]

Originally Posted by saldana

i can totally see Path telling her that the best strategy for her would be to remain as quiet as possible and go UTR

vote mollymurphy

This has been my thinking too, but I can also see him saying that to ITC, who's been quiet since the first day. (I can also see you or Chief Rum saying that to either Molly or ITC)

[Chief Rum]

A couple thoughts on last night. I always find it curious when there is no kill at night. The obvious guess is there was a conversion. But I see another possibility. The vest could also have stopped an attack. Of course, someone with the vest on would know they were attacked. But if KGB could see they wearing the vest, would they attack? Then the attack might be avoided before it happens.

Follow my thoughts here, because I'm trying to connect a couple dots with the vest. We know path was evil. He claimed to have a vest. He claimed to move it over to AE. AE claimed to receive it. So path and AE's stories match up to that point. If AE did not receive the vest, he was lying, in league with path and would be KGB. Since Alan confirmed he received the vest from ardent, that also likely means he was telling the truth about that (or that Alan is also implicated now in Vestgate, if you would, but I'm not ready to buy the path-AE-Alan evil trio).

Basically, though, the KGB knew who had the vest last night. path claimed to have it and send it away, and that info was out there. So the KGB would not have attacked ardent, assuming he is CIA. They would have attacked someone else. I think Alan, with his theories would have been a good target last night. Is it then not possible that ardent, who admitted passing on the vest to Alan last night (or as part of a night action), might have saved Alan's life? I don't know how Lathum would compute the string of events as to whether Alan would receive the vest before the night action attack, but I could see it going that way.

Also, my guess is there were two or three KGB to start and we got one. No way there were four. So that mean at most there were two last night. If the KGB tossed saldana's room, that means they both did that and did an attack and/or conversion. I am assuming they didn't just decide not to attack.

Thoughts on all that anyone?

[Chief Rum]

Oh and a question for saldana...why were you out of your room last night?

[Chief Rum]

Well, my window is closed for today (until past deadline I mean), so I have to put in a vote right now.

I have a lot of suspects and not much to differentiate them right now. I don't want to be part of any pile on on Molly, because I'm not certain enough that she's KGB to do that. ImTheCrew gives me major bad vibes with some of his questions/votes, but I think that's a not used to his style issue, not necessarily KGB. And I don't even want to touch the Alan-ardent-stcronin triangle without more info.

So...

VOTE molson

He just has been too quiet (and, yes, I know he probably has more posts than me). I don't know that he is KGB, but I feel like I want to hear a little more from him. So maybe this vote will get things rolling. It just feels like he is "here" and I can't pin him to an opinion right now or a stance or an event. That is a bit UTR for me, which always raises a flag.

Good luck, everyone.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

A couple thoughts on last night. I always find it curious when there is no kill at night. The obvious guess is there was a conversion. But I see another possibility. The vest could also have stopped an attack. Of course, someone with the vest on would know they were attacked. But if KGB could see they wearing the vest, would they attack? Then the attack might be avoided before it happens.

Follow my thoughts here, because I'm trying to connect a couple dots with the vest. We know path was evil. He claimed to have a vest. He claimed to move it over to AE. AE claimed to receive it. So path and AE's stories match up to that point. If AE did not receive the vest, he was lying, in league with path and would be KGB. Since Alan confirmed he received the vest from ardent, that also likely means he was telling the truth about that (or that Alan is also implicated now in Vestgate, if you would, but I'm not ready to buy the path-AE-Alan evil trio).

Basically, though, the KGB knew who had the vest last night. path claimed to have it and send it away, and that info was out there. So the KGB would not have attacked ardent, assuming he is CIA. They would have attacked someone else. I think Alan, with his theories would have been a good target last night. Is it then not possible that ardent, who admitted passing on the vest to Alan last night (or as part of a night action), might have saved Alan's life? I don't know how Lathum would compute the string of events as to whether Alan would receive the vest before the night action attack, but I could see it going that way.

Also, my guess is there were two or three KGB to start and we got one. No way there were four. So that mean at most there were two last night. If the KGB tossed saldana's room, that means they both did that and did an attack and/or conversion. I am assuming they didn't just decide not to attack.

Thoughts on all that anyone?

I received the vest before night actions occured as far as I am aware. I obviously didn't say I had received it for reasons that I am pretty sure you can figure out. Just like I won't comment about what I do with the vest.

The vest is an interesting item though, the fact that Ardent did end up with a vest that Path sent. I'm just not willing to follow down that trail today I guess. There are too many other people that don't have any evidence one way or another to try to remove someone who "appears" to have done multiple things in our best interest.

Chief, one question back for you.. How do you know Saldana was out of his room? Is this something you know for sure, or what? I went back to see if he said that, somewhat suprised that I did not catch it at first.. but didn't see where he said it. All I see is him saying his room was broken in to. I guess I assumed that was while he was sleeping.

[Alan T]

Bah, Chief I hope you didn't leave. I have a fairly strong idea that I might put my vote on your today.. and would love for you to respond first. You were here when I posted, so hope you stick around.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by saldana

ok, i have a nice little circle of trust in my head right now, hopefully some other people have theirs as well and hopefully i am in there.

i do have one piece of news...my room was broken into last night...i have no idea who the thief was...during the theft my infrared goggles were stolen, so to anyone that can be out at night from here on in, be aware that the spies have the ability to see you in the hallway now, unless of course my stuff got stolen by a fellow agent.

Doesn't surprise me. ITC did say he knew Alan got the armor. How did he know that if I hadn't revealed if I sent it? Maybe because he saw it.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Oh Ardent, I think I know who visited you as they visited me as well last night. I do wonder though who they visited on night 1 and why we didn't hear about it before then.

Anyways back a bit later.

Excellente.

[Poli]

Hmm, Chief says saldana was outside. Interesting.

[Alan T]

Well.. it looks like in the time it took me to respond to Chief, he had to leave. I find that unfortunate as I would loved to have given him the opportunity to relieve me of some of my concerns about him..

As it is right now, something weird seems to be going on between Chief and Saldana.. and I'm not sure which I like. For now I think I'm going to have to go with Chief, even though he isn't here to defend himself, thats not exactly my fault as I did mention earlier before he left that he was one of the people I was looking at. Instead of dispelling my concerns, he decided to try to raise doubt about me.

Vote Chief Rum

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

Hmm, Chief says saldana was outside. Interesting.

yeah, I don't know.. Did I just miss it. I reread but don't see Saldana having said that.. So that put some new thoughts into my mind... Thus my last post and my vote..

1) Does Chief know that Saldana was out last night? Or is he making it up to try to make Saldana look bad?

2) If Chief does know that Saldana was out last night, then how and why was Chief out last night? And if it was for a good reason, I imagine it would be a one time use item and no reason not to admit it.

3) If #2 is true, then why on earth was saldana out last night?

4) If both Chief and Saldana were out, based on the good roles left, and them being on different teams, who is working for whom?


I just decided based on previous days play, how he responded to me and the above, I felt I needed to vote Chief today. I really am interested in understanding this better.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by saldana

ok, i have a nice little circle of trust in my head right now, hopefully some other people have theirs as well and hopefully i am in there.

i do have one piece of news...my room was broken into last night...i have no idea who the thief was...during the theft my infrared goggles were stolen, so to anyone that can be out at night from here on in, be aware that the spies have the ability to see you in the hallway now, unless of course my stuff got stolen by a fellow agent.

i have to vote now and it will likely be the time i am on before the deadline, as i will be on a bit of a road trip for the remainder of the day.

i am putting my vote out for her because i havent liked her voting pattern at all to this point, and although she hasnt been any more quiet than i have, i can totally see Path telling her that the best strategy for her would be to remain as quiet as possible and go UTR

vote mollymurphy

This is the only thing Saldana has posted today.. He says his room was broken into and something was stolen.
Next paragraph he says he has to vote and why he will be gone.
Third paragraph he gives his reason for his vote.

I don't see anywhere that Chief has this knowledge. So I'm not sure if Chief is assuming something, or he knows something that he isn't saying. Either way, I don't like it. Combine that with my previous concern about him and I guess I don't like Chief at all right now.

[MollyMurphy]

Yesterday I was looking at Saldana but did not think there was much to go on at all. Despite the fact he voted for me, I still believe that he is on the up and up. CR's comments on Saldana's whereabouts are concerning.... he was not really high on my radar before but this has moved him up a bit.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by MollyMurphy

Yesterday I was looking at Saldana but did not think there was much to go on at all. Despite the fact he voted for me, I still believe that he is on the up and up. CR's comments on Saldana's whereabouts are concerning.... he was not really high on my radar before but this has moved him up a bit.

Well Saldana has definitly not played his typical game, I'm not sure how much of it is just real life getting to him or not. The way he introduced himself gave me concern and still does for the reasons I stated. You obviously didn't think so. And now this too with Chief Rum.

All things considered though, I think there is -more- troubling with what Chief Rum said and how he said it than what Saldana said and how he said it. Saldana's comments today feel alot less manipulative than Chief's do. I think there is a much higher chance of Chief doing something fishy with how he presented his case , and for now think between the two I'll go for Chief.

[MollyMurphy]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Well Saldana has definitly not played his typical game, I'm not sure how much of it is just real life getting to him or not. The way he introduced himself gave me concern and still does for the reasons I stated. You obviously didn't think so. And now this too with Chief Rum.

All things considered though, I think there is -more- troubling with what Chief Rum said and how he said it than what Saldana said and how he said it. Saldana's comments today feel alot less manipulative than Chief's do. I think there is a much higher chance of Chief doing something fishy with how he presented his case , and for now think between the two I'll go for Chief.

I don't have any history on Saldana's game play, but I do know work has been super busy for him lately and that he is travelling to Cinci, OH tonight to visit us. I do think CR is more fishy.....Cronin is on my radar too. Seems like he keeps popping up on everyone's list on and off. That is a little troubling to me as well.

[Poli]

Someone out there knows a lot more than I do and just hasn't shared the information. Hmmph.

[Poli]

Friggin run time errors. That's why it's posted twice.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Alan T

yeah, I don't know.. Did I just miss it. I reread but don't see Saldana having said that.. So that put some new thoughts into my mind... Thus my last post and my vote..

1) Does Chief know that Saldana was out last night? Or is he making it up to try to make Saldana look bad?

2) If Chief does know that Saldana was out last night, then how and why was Chief out last night? And if it was for a good reason, I imagine it would be a one time use item and no reason not to admit it.

3) If #2 is true, then why on earth was saldana out last night?

4) If both Chief and Saldana were out, based on the good roles left, and them being on different teams, who is working for whom?

I just decided based on previous days play, how he responded to me and the above, I felt I needed to vote Chief today. I really am interested in understanding this better.

As I'm trying to decide who to believe, I can't help but wonder what the implications are -

So who has a reason to be out at night?
-Spies - up to no good
-Negotiator (But if mercs are CIA until convereted, so aren't they up to no good as well)?
-Bodyguard is dead

Am I missing anyone?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by molson

As I'm trying to decide who to believe, I can't help but wonder what the implications are -

So who has a reason to be out at night?
-Spies - up to no good
-Negotiator (But if mercs are CIA until convereted, so aren't they up to no good as well)?
-Bodyguard is dead

Am I missing anyone?

I brought this topic up yesterday. It seemed popular opinion from everyone was that the negotiator was on our side. I still am fuzzy on how that and the merc role play together.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I brought this topic up yesterday. It seemed popular opinion from everyone was that the negotiator was on our side. I still am fuzzy on how that and the merc role play together.

Was your visitor revealed to you? (I mean, do you "know" who it was, or do you think you know who it was)