Invasion of Ukraine

[RainMaker]

If this is true, Russia is getting desperate.

Huge story from ⁦@Dimi⁩: US officials claim Russia is already running out of some equipment less than three weeks into the war in Ukraine, and has asked China for help https://t.co/Zcrcsc7IC6

— max seddon (@maxseddon) March 13, 2022

[NobodyHere]

This threadjack probably should be in another thread.

[GrantDawg]

China was refusing to give them civilian plane parts a few days ago. Now they are going to give them military assistance?

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[Edward64]

If true, this will be a pivotal moment for China. Either join in as an "ally" with Russia for stay neutral. My guess is they'll stay neutral as the west is more important economically than Russia. And what will Russia do anyway if they refuse.

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news...2807abc196a6b1

Russia has asked China for military assistance in Ukraine, including drones, a senior US official said Sunday.

CNN has reached out to the Russian embassy in the US for comment but did not receive an immediate response.

White House National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan told CNN's Dana Bash Sunday that China providing Russia with support is a “concern.”

“We also are watching closely to see the extent to which China actually does provide any form of support, material support or economic support, to Russia. It is a concern of ours. And we have communicated to Beijing that we will not stand by and allow any country to compensate Russia for its losses from the economic sanctions,” Sullivan said.

Sullivan said the US has made it clear to Beijing there will "absolutely be consequences" for "large-scale" efforts to give the Kremlin a workaround to US sanctions.

"We will not allow that to go forward and allow there to be a lifeline to Russia from these economic sanctions from any country anywhere in the world," he said.

Sullivan is set to meet with his Chinese counterpart Yang Jiechi in Rome Monday.

Chinese embassy spokesperson Liu Pengyu told CNN Sunday he had not heard of Russia's request.

"I've never heard of that. China is deeply concerned and grieved on the Ukraine situation. We sincerely hope that the situation will ease and peace will return at an early date," Pengyu said. "The current situation in Ukraine is indeed disconcerting. Utmost efforts should be made to support Russia and Ukraine in carrying forward negotiations despite the difficult situation to produce a peaceful outcome. We support and encourage all efforts that are conducive to a peaceful settlement of the crisis. The high priority now is to prevent the tense situation from escalating or even getting out of control. There is consensus about this among the international community, including the parties concerned.”

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

They're not "those countries". It would politically be the same as invading Alaska. Will the NATO want to start WW3 over Alaska?

No, which is why given that situation I would say that "Alaska" should not be confident that someone was on their way to help.

I am not sure why this is a controversial statement. Here is a link to an interview with Latvia’s Defense Minister from earlier this week. He does not sound like someone who is 100% confident in what the West's response would be if they were invaded.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...-europe-putin/

[bhlloy]

Plus if it’s Trump or a Trump lite in 2024 he’s probably going through with pulling the US out of NATO anyway. I think the fears are well founded.

[Solecismic]

I have more to say on the bigotry issue, mainly that it's a lot easier to stand up against it when it isn't so pervasive. In Michigan, just down the road, we have a Greenfield Village - a tourist attraction dedicated to a hero of our country who spent a decent amount of his fortune distributing The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Hitler also loved this hero and gave him Germany's highest honor for non-Germans and quoted him in Mein Kampf.

It's hard to feel so shitty about something so beloved in the area I grew up in. Today, the Ford Motor Company is not a horrible thing - that's in their past and today's ownership seems fine. But it's important to remember the past.

This is relevant to the Ukraine invasion because Putin and Xi are, all of a sudden, the biggest pretend anti-Nazi crusaders on the planet. Anything related to this history, including Israel's very careful steps (and apparent desire to remain neutral) during this invasion is worth examining. The link I quoted before explains the relationship between Antisemitism and criticism of Israel (some of which is valid, of course).

I don't need to go any further. My point is basically about the bigotry and I will not continue to confront it here. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, trust that I'll do my best to refrain in the future. This attack on Ukraine has me quite worried about the future of our world, because right now I think there's some chance it will turn into WWIII. And that makes me wonder if this is a world worth saving. I think it is, but I think more about things like bigotry and the nature of man these days.

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Plus if it’s Trump or a Trump lite in 2024 he’s probably going through with pulling the US out of NATO anyway. I think the fears are well founded.

realclearpolitics.com

This is classic Trump - a very interesting transcript. I do not think he would have pulled out of NATO. He's all over the place, but I think he makes some excellent points here.

The danger with Trump, of course, is that he will act on a whim more often than not. It wouldn't be so easy to pull out of NATO and it's likely he'd talked out of it or say the exact opposite thing tomorrow (I guess that's the art of the deal or something).

I think we need leadership that understands and respects the complexity of our government's structure and what checks and balances really means. It's supposed to be very hard to change things. That's how a democracy can work. If we just voted red or blue and whoever got the most electoral votes became dictator, then it's probably closer to a "pure" democracy than a republic, but it's going to fail quickly. Our government structure is intentionally difficult to navigate and move. That's a feature, not a bug.

[Edward64]

I think the odds for WW3 is low. With nukes, extremely low.

With that said, haven't read anything about NATO positioning troops at the border. I assume they are for a just in case. In my more likely scenario, NATO will have to create a humanitarian "safe zone" in western Ukraine. Haven't read anything about US troops in Europe being repositioned either.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I don't need to go any further. My point is basically about the bigotry and I will not continue to confront it here. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, trust that I'll do my best to refrain in the future.

Pointing out Israel's policies is not bigotry. It's a sovereign nation comprised of Jewish, Muslim, and Christian people. Just as criticizing the policies of the United States does not make you a Christian bigot. Nor does criticizing the policies of Iran make you an Islamaphobe.

None of this makes me feel uncomfortable. Your tactic is not new. It's meant to censor those who have an opinion on the policies of another sovereign nation. And it'll continue to be used because it means not having to answer for policy.

The Israeli Government does not speak or represent every Jewish person. Just as the US Government does not speak or represent every Christian. Or Iran speak or represent every Muslim. The policies enacted by governments are open to criticism, even if a lobbying group tries telling you that there is an exception.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Plus if it’s Trump or a Trump lite in 2024 he’s probably going through with pulling the US out of NATO anyway. I think the fears are well founded.

I don't think he would pull us out of NATO. There is far too much bipartisan support in the government as well as the military.

But I do think the goal would be to weaken it as much as possible. NATO only works if you truly believe that all countries would respond in defense of fellow members.

[RainMaker]

Vladimir Putin's tanks are firing on civilian apartment buildings in Ukraine.

War crimes right before our very eyes. pic.twitter.com/HzIrYJhTsf

— Josh Campbell (@joshscampbell) March 14, 2022

[GrantDawg]

BREAKING: Israel announces publicly for the first time it will comply with the international sanctions against Russia. FM Lapid says "Israel won't be used as a means to bypass the sanctions on Russia"

— Barak Ravid (@BarakRavid) March 14, 2022

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Pointing out Israel's policies is not bigotry.

Our Rabbi has made this point a few times in the past few years, especially when put against the rising incidence of anti-semitism in the United States. Can an American Jew criticize Israel and not be anti-semitic? The answer is yes, because you're criticizing the actions of the state, not the concept of Israel as a whole.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Edward64

If true, this will be a pivotal moment for China. Either join in as an "ally" with Russia for stay neutral. My guess is they'll stay neutral as the west is more important economically than Russia. And what will Russia do anyway if they refuse.

This, fundamentally, has been Putin's miscalculation. He clearly thought his disinformation campaigns, and Trump's presidency, had sufficiently weakened Western alliances & resolve, and thus he'd be able to do something like this and get away with it.

Luckily, the resolve was still there, and China wants no part in being cut off from the world as Russia has been. Another 4 years of Trump, and it might have been different. Even if one chooses to believe that Putin does not have kompramat on Trump, it's difficult to see someone who praises Putin like this, or publicly chooses to believe Putin over his own intelligence agencies, orchestrating a multi-national response like Biden has. YMMV.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

No, which is why given that situation I would say that "Alaska" should not be confident that someone was on their way to help.

I am not sure why this is a controversial statement. Here is a link to an interview with Latvia’s Defense Minister from earlier this week. He does not sound like someone who is 100% confident in what the West's response would be if they were invaded.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...-europe-putin/

Now I'm confused about what we agree or disagree on here.

If Latvia is invaded by a non-NATO member, it's considered a declaration of war on all NATO members. Would individual NATO members feel uncomfortable getting involved? They might, but that's a question that was already answered in 2004 when Latvia (amongst others) became a member of NATO and today's political leaders have inherited to deal with the consequences.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I think the odds for WW3 is low. With nukes, extremely low.

With that said, haven't read anything about NATO positioning troops at the border. I assume they are for a just in case. In my more likely scenario, NATO will have to create a humanitarian "safe zone" in western Ukraine. Haven't read anything about US troops in Europe being repositioned either.

NATO members have been moving around and building up troops in the Baltics since Russia invaded Crimea and recently over the concerns that Russia might invade Ukraine.
NATO - News: NATO Allies send more ships, jets to enhance deterrence and defence in eastern Europe, 24-Jan.-2022
The questionable part here is whether it's been sufficient to seriously protect and defend Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

NATO members have been moving around and building up troops in the Baltics since Russia invaded Crimea and recently over the concerns that Russia might invade Ukraine.
NATO - News: NATO Allies send more ships, jets to enhance deterrence and defence in eastern Europe, 24-Jan.-2022
The questionable part here is whether it's been sufficient to seriously protect and defend Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland.

I don't think there are enough troops in any of those places to adequately defend them from a first attack. But you can only get so far on a first attack - we've been witnessing that over the last couple of weeks. However, before you can even mount your second attack, NATO's combined forces, including our Navy and Air Force will decimate whatever military you were hoping to use for said second attack.

I mean Lithuania's capital, Vilnius, is only like 20 miles across the border from Belarus. Talinn, Estonia's capital is about 200 miles from St. Petersburg. They're not large countries and if you struck quickly, you might be able to decapitate one of their governments or maybe all 3. But I think doing that would instantly launch the world into WW3. And it's a battle Russia knows they can't win. And it's one that probably ends with nukes flying.

SI

[JPhillips]

Russia, given their "tactics" in Ukraine, would be without any vehicles in about 48 hours if they attacked a NATO country. Whatever fear there was of Russian air defense is completely gone now.

This is also why I think it's so important to try to keep NATO out of the actual fighting. Once NATO joins the fray it will be a quick disaster for the Russians and the pressure to use WMD would be intense.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Now I'm confused about what we agree or disagree on here.

If Latvia is invaded by a non-NATO member, it's considered a declaration of war on all NATO members. Would individual NATO members feel uncomfortable getting involved? They might, but that's a question that was already answered in 2004 when Latvia (amongst others) became a member of NATO and today's political leaders have inherited to deal with the consequences.

Let me try it a different way.

I don't believe the reason NATO has not directly intervened in Ukraine is because Ukraine is not a part of NATO. NATO has undertaken direct military actions on behalf of non NATO nations before. We can debate the merits of whether they should intervene or not. There are reasons for NATO to not intervene and yes that includes not wanting to start WWIII. As a result, the situation ins Ukraine is what it is. That is the trade off NATO has decided to make.

Using non NATO membership as a reason for not intervening is an excuse, not a reason IMO. If I am Latvia and I see what I believe is excuse making by NATO when it comes to defending a nation that looks a lot like me, I would wonder if similar excuse making might be around the corner when Russia shows up on my doorstep. I know I have an agreement with NATO. It would not stop me from looking through that agreement one more time to make sure that NATO won't find an excuse for not defending me.

[RainMaker]

For all the talk about oil, it was trading at under $100 earlier today.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Let me try it a different way.

I don't believe the reason NATO has not directly intervened in Ukraine is because Ukraine is not a part of NATO. NATO has undertaken direct military actions on behalf of non NATO nations before. We can debate the merits of whether they should intervene or not. There are reasons for NATO to not intervene and yes that includes not wanting to start WWIII. As a result, the situation ins Ukraine is what it is. That is the trade off NATO has decided to make.

Using non NATO membership as a reason for not intervening is an excuse, not a reason IMO. If I am Latvia and I see what I believe is excuse making by NATO when it comes to defending a nation that looks a lot like me, I would wonder if similar excuse making might be around the corner when Russia shows up on my doorstep. I know I have an agreement with NATO. It would not stop me from looking through that agreement one more time to make sure that NATO won't find an excuse for not defending me.

Ukraine not being a member of NATO (or whatever) is the excuse to not support them, it's pretty clear that the EU (and their members) and the USA have taken that stance.

My point is that there should be no concern for Latvia. If Latvia would get invaded by Russia. It can't be "what would NATO do", because it would be an assault on NATO. The decision what to do has been made in 2004: NATO defends NATO.

Providing the Latvian minister's concerns are valid, it would mean the end of NATO there and then.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Russia, given their "tactics" in Ukraine, would be without any vehicles in about 48 hours if they attacked a NATO country. Whatever fear there was of Russian air defense is completely gone now.

This is also why I think it's so important to try to keep NATO out of the actual fighting. Once NATO joins the fray it will be a quick disaster for the Russians and the pressure to use WMD would be intense.

No doubt. Our forces may be out numbered to begin, but NATO would have complete air superiority within hours.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Our Rabbi has made this point a few times in the past few years, especially when put against the rising incidence of anti-semitism in the United States. Can an American Jew criticize Israel and not be anti-semitic? The answer is yes, because you're criticizing the actions of the state, not the concept of Israel as a whole.

This is the only acceptable way to think IMO. I have zero issues with the Jewish people or faith and a lot of issues with the modern Israeli state. I don't equate the modern state of Israel with the Jewish religion in my mind at all, any more than I do any other country with any other religion. I understand the deep historic and religious ties between the Jewish people and the region very well - the same is true with many people and cultures scattered all across the planet, and these should not give modern-day governments any kind of pass or freedom from criticism.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

This is the only acceptable way to think IMO. I have zero issues with the Jewish people or faith and a lot of issues with the modern Israeli state. I don't equate the modern state of Israel with the Jewish religion in my mind at all, any more than I do any other country with any other religion. I understand the deep historic and religious ties between the Jewish people and the region very well - the same is true with many people and cultures scattered all across the planet, and these should not give modern-day governments any kind of pass or freedom from criticism.

This is just weird. I specifically wrote, more than once, that it is not Antisemitic on its face to criticize Israeli policies. I provided a link where that's pretty much the first sentence.

And yet that's still where we are. I guess nuance truly doesn't exist online. My objection is specifically to the five words I initially quoted. Those are every bit as bigoted as the use of 88 or 14 would be in the context of this issue. I tried to be as specific as humanly possible about the difference, and no one apparently bothered with the word or the links or trying to understand the distinction.

It is a crucial one. No one is more critical of the Israeli government than a patriotic Israeli citizen. But the take that Israel is an apartheid state is Antisemitic. If it's not intended to be Antisemitic, then take the time to learn more about the history of the region, the reality of trying to exist next to countries that are determined to push you "from the river to the sea." That's even written in the charter documents for the Palestinian territories.

Again, I don't want to belabor this and I intend not to talk about anymore (really, if this doesn't work, fuck it), but I wanted to be as clear as possible about why I see it this way.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

This is just weird. I specifically wrote, more than once, that it is not Antisemitic on its face to criticize Israeli policies. I provided a link where that's pretty much the first sentence.

This is what you wrote that kicked this all off (in response to RM calling Israel an apartheid state):

Originally Posted by Solecismic

At that point, I stop reading you, period. That is not an acceptable view. I suggest you look at this link:

Defining Antisemitism - United States Department of State

This is the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition, which our country has adopted. I just can't respond to bigotry. So I will stop now. Really, I should have done this a while back.

This seems to be the relevant section from the link:

Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity

I mean, I feel you're arguing with yourself, here.

Your earlier post implies that RM's characterization of Israel as an apartheid state is not "criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country" because you explicitly characterize it as bigotry. Therefore we must assume you meant RM's characterization was beyond the pale, so to speak (ignoring the fact that several other states in history have pursued apartheid policies, including the United States, so RM's characterization would not be anti-semitic).

However, your later post contradicts this, possibly due to the above facts.

So, basically, I'm confused.

[Brian Swartz]

Part of this is the baked-in assumption that this forum generally is against bigotry in all forms. We've seen multiple times that this isn't the case.

[GrantDawg]

Early planning of a meeting of all NATO leaders next week in Brussels. This would include President Biden and other heads of state. It is not a done deal yet, but forming up.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[Edward64]

Looks like China is getting more "involved". No real specifics though.

U.S. warns China against providing aid to Russia during 'intense' 7-hour meeting - MarketWatch

Meanwhile, two administration officials said the U.S. had determined that China had signaled to Russia that it would be willing to provide both military support for the campaign in Ukraine and financial backing to help stave off the impact of severe sanctions imposed by the West. The officials said that assessment had been relayed to Western and Asian allies and partners earlier Monday.

“Moscow has received a positive response from Beijing,” said one official, describing a diplomatic cable sent to U.S. embassies asking for them to inform their host governments of the information. The officials spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive information.

Sullivan made clear during an “intense” seven-hour meeting that the Biden administration has deep concerns about China’s alignment with Russia at this time, White House press secretary Jen Psaki said.

Psaki declined to comment on whether the U.S. believes China has already provided the Russians with military, economic or other assistance.

[RainMaker]

A maternity hospital.

Watching the videos, it was clear her injuries were catastrophic.

BREAKING: Pregnant woman pictured being carried from a maternity hospital in Mariupol after it was shelled by Russian forces has died along with her unborn baby, Ukraine's Foreign Ministry says. https://t.co/CwKE29uDOc

— NBC News (@NBCNews) March 14, 2022

[RainMaker]

Russia’s Assault On Kyiv Continues As Foreign Leaders Visit Ukraine’s Capital | Talking Points Memo

[Lathum]

Russia put 11 Americans on a sanction list today, mostly high ranking government officials and Hillary and Hunter Biden.

Not Trump and not one republican.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Russia put 11 Americans on a sanction list today, mostly high ranking government officials and Hillary and Hunter Biden.

Not Trump and not one republican.

Tells you all you need to know, huh?

[Thomkal]

I'm sure Hilary and Hunter are shaking in their boots right now.

[RainMaker]

More journalists being targeted it seems. A long time Fox News photographer was killed. So was a producer for the network, although they've kept that quiet (maybe to protect her family or to not upset the Russians by admitting they had a Ukraine citizen on the payroll).

This along with the American documentarian who was working for the NYT. Others have been shot.

[Lathum]

Wonder how Carlson et al are going to handle this, if they even acknowledge it.

[Solecismic]

A quick surf over to the Fox web site indicates it's a top story. I guess I'm not sure why it's an issue that Putin is playing politics against the party in power. I thought the whole Steele thing was debunked a long time ago, but maybe I'm wrong. Seems like one side or the other has been involved in "investigating" the other side and their relationships to Ukraine and Russia for decades now. Never seems to amount to anything. But lock her up, lock him up, lock everyone up. It would probably do us a world of good.

[HerRealName]

Seems like one side just had a lot of high ranking advisors and officials imprisoned due to those relationships. That's a lot more than "never seems to amount to anything".

[RainMaker]

Well, there was the part where Trump illegally withheld weapons from Ukraine unless they framed his opponent's son for a crime. Or that the Chairman of his campaign, personal lawyer, and many top aides had extensive ties (some criminal) to pro-Russian individuals looking to overthrow the government of Ukraine.

It was pretty clear who's side that party is on and not surprising why the Russian government would exclude them from any sanctions. I mean the President stated he trusted Putin more than our own law enforcement and intelligence agencies.

Also not surprising now that the perception of Russia has changed so much that these people are furiously backtracking and pretending these associations didn't take place.

[Solecismic]

Do you have sources for this information? I know Trump was impeached and a lot was said about that, but the actual impeachment charge seemed to be about something different.

I get it. One can wallow in the NYT or the HuffPost or Fox or OAN and hear all sorts of things. That's a big part of how we got where we are right now in terms of divisiveness. You read the Steele thing and you just cringe that people actually believed it. The other side claims there's a laptop that proves Hunter Biden was taking money from China, Ukraine and probably Tuvalu as well, and some porn movies to boot.

It's a horrible rabbit hole to get stuck in. Just remember that all they want is clicks. And they don't get clicks unless they work you up into a frenzy of hate. We get the politicians we deserve.

[RainMaker]

All this stuff was extensively covered by every major news agency in the world. There is even a transcript of the phone call in question and testimony by a whistleblower and Ambassador. Trials were held, people convicted. Tweets, TV appearances, all that stuff too.

Log off Newsmax for a few hours and see what's happened in the world the past few years.

[Edward64]

Not too surprising I guess that US and UK are #1 & #2. Surprised somewhat about Germany being #3. Very surprised at India at #5 ... doesn't seem to fit but I wonder if it's the goal of Ukrainian citizenship?

[tarcone]

Have gun, will travel

[Edward64]

A third Russian general taken out (fourth if you count the Chechnya "general"). Article below has the tally.

https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incomin...-in-Crimea.jpg

[Edward64]

Pretty interesting Reddit AMA by a Al-Jazeera journalist in Russia (still in progress, he hasn't answered a lot of questions yet).

I've been wondering what they are thinking in Russia and this guy has been able to provide some perspective.

TL DR Russians know about the war, majority seem to still support it and believe the propaganda, noticing the sanctions and pull-outs, aware of ruble crashing & see prices going up. He said Russians can still access english speaking websites which was a surprise to me.

I’m a reporter and producer working in Moscow for Al Jazeera where press freedoms have been limited. Ask me anything. : worldnews

[Edward64]

Some chatter on reddit on negotiations. Can't assume below is reliable but think this is a good compromise. Question now is about Crimea (still Russian I think) and the 2 other Russian friendly areas (prob still gone).

Damage to Putin is done and hopefully he won't have that iron grip anymore. Ukraine can rebuild and stock up in preparation for the next one (if there is one). Their standing in the world will greatly increase as the country that was able to stand their ground and not crumble.

Ukraine could agree to what Russians call "neutral status" but according to the Ukrainian model. That means legally verified security guarantees: in case of war signatories provide weapons and air defense immediately without bureaucratic procedures or conditions, - UA Negotiator

[RainMaker]

Even China is turning their back on Russia.

BREAKING: Fury in Kremlin after China's Ambassador to Ukraine congratulates them for their resistance, vows economic support to rebuild Ukrainehttps://t.co/A4DE8veSkl

— AlexandruC4 (@AlexandruC4) March 15, 2022

[BYU 14]

China was always going to be the key and if they are sincere that is huge. Apparently no limits has limits after all.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Do you have sources for this information? I know Trump was impeached and a lot was said about that, but the actual impeachment charge seemed to be about something different.

I get it. One can wallow in the NYT or the HuffPost or Fox or OAN and hear all sorts of things. That's a big part of how we got where we are right now in terms of divisiveness. You read the Steele thing and you just cringe that people actually believed it. The other side claims there's a laptop that proves Hunter Biden was taking money from China, Ukraine and probably Tuvalu as well, and some porn movies to boot.

It's a horrible rabbit hole to get stuck in. Just remember that all they want is clicks. And they don't get clicks unless they work you up into a frenzy of hate. We get the politicians we deserve.

On December 3, 2019, as part of the impeachment inquiry, the House Intelligence Committee published a 300-page report detailing that "the impeachment inquiry has found that President Trump, personally and acting through agents within and outside of the U.S. government, solicited the interference of a foreign government, Ukraine, to benefit his reelection. In furtherance of this scheme, President Trump conditioned official acts on a public announcement by the new Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, of politically-motivated investigations, including one into Joe Biden, one of Trump's domestic political opponents. In pressuring President Zelenskyy to carry out his demand, President Trump withheld a White House meeting desperately sought by the Ukrainian President, and critical U.S. military assistance to fight Russian aggression in eastern Ukraine."^[22]: 8 In January 2020, the Government Accountability Office, a non-partisan watchdog, concluded that the White House broke federal law by withholding Congress-approved military aid to Ukraine.^[23]

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

China was always going to be the key and if they are sincere that is huge. Apparently no limits has limits after all.

Well, China probably sees an opportunity to get a foothold. Especially if Ukraine is not going to join NATO. Give help with the rebuild with plenty of strings attached, just like everywhere else in Belt and Road. They see an investment opportunity.

[GrantDawg]

China is going to play both sides. They are going to get as much out of Russia as they can without jeopardizing their income from the West.