2011 NCAA Basketball Tournament Thread

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by muns

Because at the College level its elevated........ At the grade school/ middle school level you get to move up... At the high school level it starts to get hard as most of those kids wont go on to the College level so I guess actually you can apply it there as well, but they can still dream of trying to walk on at a D-3school at least..... At the college level, most seniors are done even on the D-1 level and thats why its different and harder..... Most arent going to go pro and their basketball career just came to and end....

That's life. Sports can be heartbreaking at times. It's also why it can be so rewarding. Someone has to win and someone has to lose.

[SirFozzie]

and speaking of last second fouls...

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

and speaking of last second fouls...

As a Wisconsin fan, if they lose by 1 Imma gonna be pissed...

[mauchow]

Two Badgers with bloodied heads and Pullen not missing a three so far the Badgers still hold onto a 6 point lead going into half time. I can definitely be happy with that despite the fact that it COULD have been up to 10 instead a stupid turnover and a stupid foul to close the half.

So I can sleep a bit easier tonight I'd like to win this one by about 20. A 1 point win/loss will cause me to lose pretty much all my sleep tonight.

[sterlingice]

Wisconsin looks well put together for a deep run. They're great defensively and while they don't have a great offense, they get and make a lot of free throws.

SI

[muns]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Let's just look at each one separately...the first foul the Pitt guy has the ball and is making his way up the sideline and the Butler guy "checks" him out of bounds. If the Butler guy doesn't not do that, the Pitt player gets inside the half court line and gets a better look. Therefore, the contact created a disadvantage for the offense.

The second one what just a hack job on the arm. Plain stupid by the Pitt guy since the play was 90 feet away from Butler's basket. However, are you saying that if that happens in the first minute of the game that shouldn't be a foul too? If so then I could understand your side better. But again, I firmly believe (and have been taught) that if it is foul early, it is a foul late.

You keep saying you let the kids decide the games. The kids did decide the game. There is nothing in the rule book stating you call the games different in the first half than in the second half. That isn't fair to the players. You see it happen all the time and people/coaches/players complain. Both players whether they be on Butler or Pitt fouled and the refs did their job making the call.

I know we aren't going to agree on this, and I know I am a ref apologist which probably pisses a lot of people off around here. I am just trying to give a different perspective. And you better hope you never see me in stripes while you are head coach

I honestly don't think you call either and Pitt loses by 1.......

Its a judgment call......... The pitt player wasn't shooting at that point, so that ends the game.... If he was shooting (I think he was getting there but wasn't) then you call it..... IE the shot that Louisville had that wasn't called because that ref would have decided the game...... but by rule was a foul (he didn't give him a chance to land and thats a foul by rule) Don't care what anyone says there......

I most certainly had the most problem with the last foul called..... Unless he jumps on someones back you don't call it, even if you think its a foul.... Ya ya I know I'm going to get ripped for that but hey if you miss that call like it was clear that there were earlier ones missed, you cant make that call and you let over time decide who wins....... (IE the kids)

I know we aren't going to agree on this, and I know I am a ref apologist which probably pisses a lot of people off around here. I am just trying to give a different perspective. And you better hope you never see me in stripes while you are head coach [/

Ahh we don't agree but I think you know me well enough that I respect your opinion...... I highly doubt you will ever get the chance to call one of my games as I think I am prob going to give the dream up in a month when I don't get the job at the University Ive busted my balls at for the past 5 seaons. I won't get into why on here but It would have been fun though and you can bet I would have taken the team on the parade tour of Pittsburgh if it would have happened

[mauchow]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Wisconsin looks well put together for a deep run. They're great defensively and while they don't have a great offense, they get and make a lot of free throws.

SI

Strangely enough that's the opposite of this year's Badgers team. They're way behind what they are normally defensively compared to past seasons and this year they're very efficient on offense without going to the free throw line that often.

[hoopsguy]

The problem with taking a strict interpretation of the rulebook in cases like this is that you would likely be able to find a foul on 75% of possessions in a basketball game, between hand checking and banging under the basket for position.

So it isn't hard to say "yeah, there was a disadvantage created" on those plays. But particularly the first play, where Pitt didn't pick up the ball because they were trying to keep the clock from starting, I thought it was a pretty incidental call to make at that point in the game. The Pitt player created the contact by delaying picking up the ball and then running straight into the oncoming defender once he did.

The second one was a more clear foul, but wow is that a difficult way to effectively end a really well played game. The reason people want to see the "kids decide the game" is because it is frustrating to watch two really evenly matched teams play a great game and compete like crazy against each other, only to have it end on a play where the foul comes 90' from the basket on a play that had 0.00000000 chance of resulting in the winning points in regulation.

For the point of emphasis of the referees to be "enforce the rulebook" without any sense of context is to invite outcomes like we see today. I guess the director of refereeing (who looked like Emperor Palpatine with the huge bags under his eyes) got what he wanted out of this game. Bravo?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

The problem with taking a strict interpretation of the rulebook in cases like this is that you would likely be able to find a foul on 75% of possessions in a basketball game, between hand checking and banging under the basket for position.

So it isn't hard to say "yeah, there was a disadvantage created" on those plays. But particularly the first play, where Pitt didn't pick up the ball because they were trying to keep the clock from starting, I thought it was a pretty incidental call to make at that point in the game. The Pitt player created the contact by delaying picking up the ball and then running straight into the oncoming defender once he did.

The second one was a more clear foul, but wow is that a difficult way to effectively end a really well played game. The reason people want to see the "kids decide the game" is because it is frustrating to watch two really evenly matched teams play a great game and compete like crazy against each other, only to have it end on a play where the foul comes 90' from the basket on a play that had 0.00000000 chance of resulting in the winning points in regulation.

For the point of emphasis of the referees to be "enforce the rulebook" without any sense of context is to invite outcomes like we see today. I guess the director of refereeing (who looked like Emperor Palpatine with the huge bags under his eyes) got what he wanted out of this game. Bravo?

Calls are missed all the time, but that doesn't mean you just give up and quit calling them. If a ref actually sees a foul and doesn't call it then he isn't doing his job and has no business reffing the tourney.

And if you don't make calls like that then close games come down to who can get away with the most important foul.

[mauchow]

Ah, fuck what a start to the half.

[Lathum]

I can not believe they called that a flagrent

[molson]

Originally Posted by LloydLungs

Don't understand the complaints about the refs. Two extremely stupid plays by Butler and Pitt back to back. Even if they weren't technically fouls (though I thought they were), the players should have gotten fouls just for being stupid. Why are you bumping up against a guy who's going to have to take a halfcourt heave? Why are you hounding a guy on a rebound who can't do anything to hurt you? Just shockingly dumb.

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

The problem with taking a strict interpretation of the rulebook in cases like this is that you would likely be able to find a foul on 75% of possessions in a basketball game, between hand

But that wasn't the kind of foul that occurs on 75% of possesions. That was a foul that's called every time in real life.

And the kids did decide the game. With their stupidity. A smarter player might have won the game. And smarts do matter.

[mauchow]

*sigh*

Taylor trying to take over the game when he's tired as hell; and it's showing on his shots (coming up short on his last few). We need a bucket and a stop or we'll be in big trouble soon.

This is way too nerve racking and I already know I'll be up until at least 3 am due to adrenaline, win or lose.

[Comey]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Bullshit call. They both have a right to that ball

SI

Which play were you talking about here? Mack's foul at halfcourt or Robinson's foul on the rebound? I'm guessing Mack's.

[sterlingice]

Wisconsin-KState is a pretty good back and forth game so far

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Comey

Which play were you talking about here? Mack's foul at halfcourt or Robinson's foul on the rebound? I'm guessing Mack's.

Yeah, that was after Mack's

SI

[Swaggs]

Man... there have really been a ton of great games/finishes on the Thurs./Sat. sets.

Looks like KSU/Wisconin is going down to the wire.

[mauchow]

Wow, thought Pullen did get fouled, but he did not, he lost control of it, great non-call by the refs. C'mon Badgers, HANG THE FUCK ON!

[Swaggs]

Oh my!

[mauchow]

OH, fuck. A foul on the three.....

[Swaggs]

I'd like to see that one again.

Sure must have gotten him early, b/c it looked like he didn't get an arm on release.

[mauchow]

Pullen anti-clutch right now.

[sterlingice]

If anyone lets Jacob Pullen gets an open shot, Bo Ryan should kick them off the team immediately

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by mauboy1

Wow, thought Pullen did get fouled, but he did not, he lost control of it, great non-call by the refs. C'mon Badgers, HANG THE FUCK ON!

Agreed- I thought it was a foul but replay showed it clearly wasn't- he was just out of control and lost it.

SI

[mauchow]

Pullen won the battle but TAYLOR WON THE WAR!!! BADGERS TO THE SWEET SIXTEEN!

[SirFozzie]

Am I the only one watching MMOD, and the Toyota commercial, when the ball slams into the side of the rim, when the kid/adult says Shoot.. I had to watch that commercial six seven times to be sure he wasn't saying "Shit!"

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by mauboy1

Pullen anti-clutch right now.

You're going after the guy with 38? How about Curtis Kelly's 5 of 15. Or the rest of the team with 16 points combined?

True, he's just seem to run out of magic- one can only do so much

SI

[Young Drachma]

Wisconsin manned up at the end there.

[Lathum]

I always feel bad for these kids when the realization sinks in they just played their last game ever.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I always feel bad for these kids when the realization sinks in they just played their last game ever.

You could see it with Pullen- he was even crying a little, it looked like. He did all he could and I wish I could have seen that beard play another game. He was one heck of a college player

SI

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

You could see it with Pullen- he was even crying a little, it looked like. He did all he could and I wish I could have seen that beard play another game. He was one heck of a college player

SI

Yes he is/was.. I really liked watching this KST team this year and I imagine most of it had to do with Pullen.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Unless of course:
1) It's a foul
2) You have any integrity
3) Are doing your job

This times about 100 million.

Have we all forgotten about last week in the Big East tourney where the refs quit with 1.7 seconds left?

I don't see where the controversy is. Those were both fouls. Incredibly stupid, idiotic fouls, but they were fouls. People who say both players have a right to the ball on the first foul are not correct. You have a right to the ball so long as you don't shove a guy to get it. He ended up getting there late and bumped into him. That's a foul. It's a foul in the opening minute, it's a foul in the final minute. The only thing I'm stunned at is that the ref actually had the guts and integrity to make a correct call in that situation. It's NEVER called and it should ALWAYS be called.

The second foul by Pitt? Ummm, I'm sorry, just because there is 1 second left in the game does not give you the right to grab someone's arm and hold it until the clock expires.

The refs did not decide this game. The kids on the floor making the plays decided the game. If neither of those calls are made, I'm on this board shredding the refs and having you guys tell me I'm an idiot. Those calls were correct. I hope the refs who made them are the refs in the national title game. Kudos to them on a fantastic final 2 seconds of showing how a ref should act.

[stevew]

How about that WWE game commercial that shows Hogan taking a finisher in the middle of the ring. Nice little FU there.

[SirFozzie]

I give today a 7.5 or 8 on a scale of 1-10. Wish a couple games were closer, but there certainly was a lot to talk about today.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by TroyF

The refs did not decide this game. The kids on the floor making the plays decided the game. If neither of those calls are made, I'm on this board shredding the refs and having you guys tell me I'm an idiot. Those calls were correct. I hope the refs who made them are the refs in the national title game. Kudos to them on a fantastic final 2 seconds of showing how a ref should act.

I think we can agree that most refs would not have called the foul on the rebound had they not just given Pitt a borderline call the previous play. It felt more like a makeup call to me. If refs want to consistently have games decided this way I guess its fine but I hope you arent the first one in line complaining about a borderline foul that was called with 2 seconds left eliminating your Denver Nuggets from the playoffs. If you want the game called by the "book" the fouls would pile up and the game would lose a lot of its appeal IMO.

Basketball has too much grey area to call everything. Refs just need to make sure one team isnt unfairly gaining an advantage. The 90 foot shot wasnt going in so the penalty didnt fit the crime. It actually worked out pretty good for the refs had they not called the last foul. They got bailed out by Pitt missing that last FT so by making the call on the sideline it couldnt have worked out any better for them. Neither team had a reason to feel screwed until they had to call the foul on the rebound.

I just dont like seeing great games decided on borderline fouls. I think its too easy to create contact in basketball and the refs need use their best judgement in handing over games.

Butler could have played 5 more minutes and won it in OT if they were the better team. I dont think anyone would have complained too much about that.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I think we can agree that most refs would not have called the foul on the rebound had they not just given Pitt a borderline call the previous play.

I wouldn't agree with that.

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Basketball has too much grey area to call everything.

It has nothing to do with calling every little thing. Consistency is what people want, not a game called 100% by the rulebook. If a ref would call a foul on something in the first minute of the game then he should call the same thing the last minute. That isn't calling every instance of contact.

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Refs just need to make sure one team isnt unfairly gaining an advantage.

First, refs should call what they see as they would normally call it. Always.

I would also say fouling someone with less than a second to go and getting away with it is gaining an unfair advantage.

Originally Posted by jbergey22

It actually worked out pretty good for the refs had they not called the last foul. They got bailed out by Pitt missing that last FT so by making the call on the sideline it couldnt have worked out any better for them. Neither team had a reason to feel screwed until they had to call the foul on the rebound.

So the refs should have just decided on their own that the game should go into overtime regardless of what the actions of the players on the court say? This would essentially have the refs playing a dungeon master type role where their job is to keep things interesting and competitive by maybe bending a rule or two as they see fit.

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I just dont like seeing great games decided on borderline fouls. I think its too easy to create contact in basketball and the refs need use their best judgement in handing over games.

Neither call there was borderline. Both were very clear fouls. If those calls are made in a situation that doesn't decide the game then no one really even blinks over them.

No one wants to see a game decided like that. However, when the other option have games come down to who is able to get away with the foul that ends up deciding the game then I'll take the ending we saw tonight. When a ref refuses to make a call that would decide the outcome of a game then he's taking the game into his hands. When there's a clear violation, as there was tonight, and a call is made then it was the players that decided the game. They committed the foul. The ref simply called it.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Neither call there was borderline. Both were very clear fouls. If those calls are made in a situation that doesn't decide the game then no one really even blinks over them.

It gets physical when you are grabbing a rebound. You get bumped, nudged, or elbowed. This one stood out like a sore thumb because the Butler player was whipping up a 90 foot shot just as he was grabbing the board. Are you saying you want fouls call on any contact under the rim on a rebound as well?

The call on the sideline I didnt like but I can certainly understand that they had to make that call.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I think we can agree that most refs would not have called the foul on the rebound had they not just given Pitt a borderline call the previous play. It felt more like a makeup call to me. If refs want to consistently have games decided this way I guess its fine but I hope you arent the first one in line complaining about a borderline foul that was called with 2 seconds left eliminating your Denver Nuggets from the playoffs. If you want the game called by the "book" the fouls would pile up and the game would lose a lot of its appeal IMO.

Basketball has too much grey area to call everything. Refs just need to make sure one team isnt unfairly gaining an advantage. The 90 foot shot wasnt going in so the penalty didnt fit the crime. It actually worked out pretty good for the refs had they not called the last foul. They got bailed out by Pitt missing that last FT so by making the call on the sideline it couldnt have worked out any better for them. Neither team had a reason to feel screwed until they had to call the foul on the rebound.

I just dont like seeing great games decided on borderline fouls. I think its too easy to create contact in basketball and the refs need use their best judgement in handing over games.

Butler could have played 5 more minutes and won it in OT if they were the better team. I dont think anyone would have complained too much about that.

Neither of those fouls were "borderline" They were simply fouls. Plain and simple. Again, at no time in the game is it allowed to grab a guys arm and hold it for a full second. At no time in the game can you body check a guy when he's going for a ball.

If the refs don't call obvious fouls because of the situation, they are deciding the game, not the players. A couple of weeks ago the Nuggets were playing the Blazers. Nuggets inbound the ball down two and the Blazers body check the Nugget who caught the inbound pass. Nothing was called and the Nuggets lost. The refs decided that game. Plain and simple, they chose to ignore an obvious call because of the "you don't call that at that time in the game" garbage.

I guess the reasoning is that it's ok to allow a guy to smash into a player with 1.7 seconds left because it isn't likely he'll make a half court shot? I guess it's ok to allow a guy to grab someone's arm after he gets a rebound?

Is that ok at ANY point in the game? Look, you want to change the damned rules for time and situation, then you change the rulebook. (the last ten seconds, there is no such thing as a loose ball foul, what the rules are for the other 39:50 goes away and you are allowed to grab, club, punch and beat the shit out of anyone. It's Lord of the Flies, right? Because we don't want the refs to decide the game by calling what the rule book shows?

Sorry, I don't buy it. I wish the refs would call it by the rulebook all the time. I'm happy these refs did. I'm saddened by the fact most people seem to think there should be two sets of rules. That sucks.

[jbergey22]

Im re-watching this and clearly its something that could have been called but Howard created some of that by whipping his arms up right into the defender. I guess Im not really sure why the Pitt player went all crazy there and forced that call.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ot-dVgh8CA

Around the 4 minute mark.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Sorry, I don't buy it. I wish the refs would call it by the rulebook all the time. I'm happy these refs did. I'm saddened by the fact most people seem to think there should be two sets of rules. That sucks.

It would be difficult for people to think there should be two sets of rules when its hard to get a good understanding of what the first set of rules even is. Fouls called are different at different times of the game, depending on who is shooting, depending on where the game is being played, etc. The refs arent consistent through the first 39 min and 50 seconds so why should we expect consistency at any point.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Im re-watching this and clearly its something that could have been called but Howard created some of that by whipping his arms up right into the defender. I guess Im not really sure why the Pitt player went all crazy there and forced that call.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ot-dVgh8CA

Around the 4 minute mark.

Not could have been called, should have been called.

But your last question is what people should be asking here, along with why the Butler player felt the need to body check someone at half court. Those were the two stories, not the refs doing their job correctly.

[Young Drachma]

I think both fouls were called accurately. I also think both were embellished, more then latter than the former which was more than likely a makeup call for blowing their whistle on the first one where the dribbler runs into the Butler kid (who should've known better than to do what he did how he did it...)

No real gripe given the outcome and doesn't take away from what I thought was a good game either way. Hope Butler keeps it up.

[gstelmack]

Since I didn't see either play in question, I won't comment on specifics, but I will chime in on the "you could call a foul on 75% of the plays". Well, guess what, much like some of the NFL rule changes this past season, that will only last a few games, until the players start remembering basketball is a NON-CONTACT sport, and stop making contact.

Although I also agree they may need to make the court bigger at some point, maybe raise the basket, maybe push the basket back behind the baseline, given how much more athletic these guys are then they were when these courts were designed.

[rjolley]

Basketball is a non-contact sport? No, not true. Post play has a ton of contact. It's not as violent as football or hockey, though. I've heard it described as basketball is a contact sport, while football is collision sport. That's more accurate.

Now, can you call a foul on 75% of the plays? Well, that's debatable. A foul is a player intentionally gaining an unfair advantage. If that's done through legal means, it's not a foul. If it's done illegally, it is. The problem with that is a perception of unfair advantage in the middle of a game that moves very quickly is hard and fouls get missed. So, yes, you could call more fouls, but 75% of the plays? I'd say unless it's an extremely physical or emotional game, I think it would be an extra 5 plays or so more than what's called already.

As for the larger court or widening the lane, that would be an interesting experiment. I don't think raising the rim would make the game better. As for pushing the basket behind the baseline, haven't heard of that train of thought. What's the desired goal there? What would that buy you?

[Lathum]

Some of these clowns in the comments section of the Seattle Times crack me up

NC barely beat Virginia at home. Nuff said there.

If we show up, it won't matter, we will win.

[Commo_Soldier]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Im re-watching this and clearly its something that could have been called but Howard created some of that by whipping his arms up right into the defender. I guess Im not really sure why the Pitt player went all crazy there and forced that call.

From what I saw, the foul came during the act of the rebound as the Pitt players arm clearly came in contact with Howard's arm while he was still bringing the ball down. As for some saying something about a 90 foot shot that is irrelevant as both teams were in the double bonus and the foul occurred during the act of rebounding the ball. I do believes these refs should not call the National Championship game because they will make a call in the last second when they were not consistent the rest of the game.

[Oilers9911]

I don't get the sentiment that you put the whistles away at the end of the game. A foul with 1 second left is the same as a foul with 14 minutes left and in the Butler/Pitt game both were definitely fouls.

That kind of thinking nearly killed the NHL. It would get down to the last 10 minutes of the third period and into OT and you basically had to sodomize a guy with a hockey stick to get a penalty called.

The rule book doesn't change based on the time remaining in the game.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by rjolley

Basketball is a non-contact sport? No, not true. Post play has a ton of contact.

You are correct these days, but that was not the original intent.

[rjolley]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

You are correct these days, but that was not the original intent.

Very true, but the original intent didn't have dribbling. You had to pass from where you caught the ball. That would definitely change the way the game is played.

And I'm sure there were players, under the original rules, who posted up their defender so that they could get the ball, very similar to the way post players do today. It's a basic way to get yourself open.

[mauchow]

I am looking forward to the next set of games so I can stop reading about the Pitt/Butler finish.