WW CXXXIX - The Red Death II - GAME OVER, SERVANTS WIN

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Hi Grammaticus. Have you played before btw? I've never seen you. Are you a player from the distant past?

Distant past. I remember playing a couple of games with him.

[Narcizo]

Oh he's here. He could answer himself.

[CrimsonFox]

cool, yeah I was directly talking to him

[Narcizo]

So we have Saldana, Dubb and Autumn seemingly going the passive defensive route of questioning why people are creating a run on NTN. Unfortunately for neat solutions I don't really see any of them going that route if they are wolf-buddies with NTN. Admittedly there might only be two or three wolves so they would want to protect NTN and I think with a minimal ability to influence the vote more than questioning the NTN vote would be a way to do it but it just seems a bit too overt to be a likely option for an experienced wolf.

[Narcizo]

As someone pointed out Dzilla's move off of NTN doesn't look fantastically good for him either. On the plus side no-one's going to get on his case about him not actually casting a vote at the end because everyone will be concentrating on him unvoting NTN. Don't know how likely a wolf is to
a) move his vote off of a wolf at such a vital stage, and
b) not put it on someone else if he did decide to move it.

Strikes me as a bit of a blind alley there as well.

[CrimsonFox]

The thing is how is one to do it? When I see wolves vote for someone who ISN'T a wolf they of course have to make up an excuse and many offer details going two routes: 1) pointing to someone else or 2) asking "why vote that person?"

That's it really. It does work oftentimes.

Granted I don't think they are ALL wolves of course. And I do think a wolf may have thrown away a vote today instead of joining the main fray.

[Narcizo]

I actually agree with NTN voters in one respect. I don't think Raiders had any choice but to vote NTN if he's a wolf. In those circumstances where you know who the wolf is you basically have to vote them and hope or you're likely going to connect yourself far too strongly to the wolf.

Of course saying that it doesn't prove that he isn't a wolf is not the same as saying that it proves he is a wolf.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

The thing is how is one to do it? When I see wolves vote for someone who ISN'T a wolf they of course have to make up an excuse and many offer details going two routes: 1) pointing to someone else or 2) asking "why vote that person?"

That's it really. It does work oftentimes.

Granted I don't think they are ALL wolves of course. And I do think a wolf may have thrown away a vote today instead of joining the main fray.

In dzilla's case you make more of the fact that ntn isn't going to be logging in and you put your vote on J23 saying that at least you know he's vanilla. In fact thinking about it I've been forgetting that ntn appears to have been a cunning. Under those circumstances I might consider trying to save him from the vote in the hope that he would be scanned and "cleared" - removing the likely heat off of me as well.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Commo_Soldier

Some interesting posts before the deadline.



After moving off of Bhlloy



Seems like he was really pushing us away, the question is does a wolf make it so obvious?

more than fair to take a good look at all those, but no wolf worth anything would be that blatant about trying to save another wolf...i might be a bit rusty at this whole WW thing, but no way i would hang myself on day one.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

I'm actually surprised someone died tonight.
I don't know the rules of these monsters.

But being able to nightkill AND convert in the same night sounds REALLY powerful and not something I would expect.

Still have a few more posts to read to be caught up, but in a 24 person game I wouldn't be super-surprised if there was an ability to do both early on.

Most mods are looking to run their games in something close to the 1-2 week window, and this one could go longer than that starting with 24 unless a couple of options were included to accelerate gameplay. Like kill+convert N1, for example.

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Hi Grammaticus. Have you played before btw? I've never seen you. Are you a player from the distant past?

Hi CF. Have not played in a long time. But I did play a few games a while back.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Still have a few more posts to read to be caught up, but in a 24 person game I wouldn't be super-surprised if there was an ability to do both early on.

Most mods are looking to run their games in something close to the 1-2 week window, and this one could go longer than that starting with 24 unless a couple of options were included to accelerate gameplay. Like kill+convert N1, for example.

i was thinking the same thing when i was trying to guess the ratio, that we either started out with more wolves than usual, or they were going to be able to convert early and often...

also wondered about the possibility of two factions, mainly because Abe included Lycanthropy as a power...was thinking there could be magical bad guys and wolf bad guys that might not be able to talk to one another.

if that were true, it would explain the eaten body of Bholloy by the wolf team, and a possible conversion by the magic team

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by saldana

more than fair to take a good look at all those, but no wolf worth anything would be that blatant about trying to save another wolf...i might be a bit rusty at this whole WW thing, but no way i would hang myself on day one.

Well, except for the whole (apparently) cunning thing I was forgetting about. Save the wolf, get him scanned and you're gravy.

[hoopsguy]

I won't have a ton of time online today, but if I did I would be looking for people who might have pushed back at Danny when he started the conversation around NTN/J23 run-off. Clearly other wolves wouldn't have much interest in one of their own being in a D1 runoff, and I think that would have been a point to try and exercise some subtle in-thread influence. Either via conversation or votes that go against NTN.

Other areas to look are people who were online over the past couple of hours who steered clear of the NTN vote. I probably fit in this category, as I was on/off over the last 2 hours and had my vote on Mauboy. He was a relevant candidate right up until the end, but I was on with 5 to go and didn't move my vote off him. I'm confident of my own loyalties (aren't we all?) but I might look askance at another player with a similar in-game profile.

There is obviously a chance to go the dzilla/dubb/saldana route that others have offered up already, but given time to go post-diving (that I won't have) I would at least see if either of the paths I outlined support those 3 candidates first, or if new ones emerge.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

I'd really like to hear from Zinto, mckerney, Bug, Thomkal, and Raiders today.

All were mostly absent for various reasons, some unknown. Just where your voting thoughts were for the day and thoughts of our current situation.

FWIW, I didn't feel really good about the ntn vote. I really didn't think we should've gone in that direction, but there needed to be a lynch. Mauboy seemed like a better candidate.

Anyhow, I think there's probably a good possibility that someone was converted as well as killed due to the large number of players in the game. Anyhow, I have quickly skimmed the thread and those are my thoughts (not much I know).

I will be on iPhone access for the rest of the day and will not be around for the lynch due to a dinner tonight. Should be fairly interesting since there's free beer, free food, and the Fed will have a rep there to talk about the state of the US economy.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

I actually agree with NTN voters in one respect. I don't think Raiders had any choice but to vote NTN if he's a wolf. In those circumstances where you know who the wolf is you basically have to vote them and hope or you're likely going to connect yourself far too strongly to the wolf.

I would definitely agree with this.

[hoopsguy]

I passed a baseball bat last night. I won't offer up what, if anything, I received last night.

[Raiders Army]

VOTE DZILLA27

I'll throw the first vote out there since my access will be extremely limited. This more than likely won't change.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

Well, except for the whole (apparently) cunning thing I was forgetting about. Save the wolf, get him scanned and you're gravy.

Major issue with this is why would a wolf count on the seer revealing on D2 just to save NtN? That would be incredibly stupid to count on. D1 run-off losers are often lynched D2 if the D1 lynch is a villager.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I won't have a ton of time online today, but if I did I would be looking for people who might have pushed back at Danny when he started the conversation around NTN/J23 run-off. Clearly other wolves wouldn't have much interest in one of their own being in a D1 runoff, and I think that would have been a point to try and exercise some subtle in-thread influence. Either via conversation or votes that go against NTN.

I've been looking for that and really can't find anything until the last 40 minutes. After Bhlloy revealed the votes were drifting to mau and J23 but then they snapped over to NTN without much argument until dubb and saldana questioned it. (I agree with them questioning the move, as it happens). Suggests that the wolf/ves might not have been around or didn't want to stick his/their neck/s out in the early stages.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Major issue with this is why would a wolf count on the seer revealing on D2 just to save NtN? That would be incredibly stupid to count on. D1 run-off losers are often lynched D2 if the D1 lynch is a villager.

You wouldn't rely on the seer doing it. You'd think that the seer will hold onto it for a while but that people will shy away from lynching the clear #2 candidate out of concern that he will have been scanned and you'll be wasting a seer scan by lynching them. I don't think you'll expect information lynching for a while in a game like this with a variety of roles.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

You wouldn't rely on the seer doing it. You'd think that the seer will hold onto it for a while but that people will shy away from lynching the clear #2 candidate out of concern that he will have been scanned and you'll be wasting a seer scan by lynching them. I don't think you'll expect information lynching for a while in a game like this with a variety of roles.

I'm not following. Has this actually ever happened? More often than not the run-off survivor is killed in the name of information. I don't understand why the seer would scan him and risk eating a scan(my biggest fear as seer is always not having anything but corpses to reveal)or why the wolves would expect that scan to happen.

[dubb93]

I'm almost starting to wonder if Narc, who voted Lathum of all people and kept his vote there even after Lathum claimed to be roled, doesn't have an agenda he is pushing here.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I passed a baseball bat last night. I won't offer up what, if anything, I received last night.

Just had a WTF moment of why is there a baseball bat here?
So I looked things up. So now I know the history of the birth of baseball, when it was invented and the controversy of Abner Doubleday vs. Alexander Cartwright and have dates of 1839 and 1791, both of which are well before this game's time.

Um, so why would you pass a baseball bat hoops? Why not use it to swing at zombie heads?

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by saldana

also wondered about the possibility of two factions, mainly because Abe included Lycanthropy as a power...was thinking there could be magical bad guys and wolf bad guys that might not be able to talk to one another.

Oh shit this might be true! Godfather all over again!
Then I read this:

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

In this game there are two factions, the Servants of the Red Death, and the Lightbringers.

While I like your theory, saldana, it does somewhat contradict Abe's sentence above. Granted I do think there COULD be a separation of wolves (and state) of some form but the above indicates it is all one big wolf team.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Because of your knowledge of the dark arts, you immediately recognize him. This was his role:


The Unhallowed – You are a former minister who has fallen and become a servant of the red death. You appear to be a minister in every normal way, and if followed at night by the Detective, he will see you studying the Bible and going to church. You may take kill or corrupt actions as your group sees fit.

BTW, rereading this.
The bold stuff jumped out at me.

This kill/corrupt action thing. It sounds like one of two things.
1) ntn had an ability INDIVIDUALLY to take a kill or corrupt action .(hmmm maybe not as it does talk about group)
2) They can take corrupt action whenever they please but if so it sounds like it's one or the other.

We don't really know if corruption action is at a different time or exactly how it works.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I'm almost starting to wonder if Narc, who voted Lathum of all people and kept his vote there even after Lathum claimed to be roled, doesn't have an agenda he is pushing here.

I never interpreted Lathum's "don't vote for me or else or whatever" to be a reveal. It sounded like a joke and/or Lathum being his usual crypticness as he has been a lot lately.

He could easily be a vanilla villager or wolf with that comment. Granted there ARE a lot of roled villagers so someone's gotta be all of them. I just don't put anything on what he said as a reveal.

[CrimsonFox]

As for Narc, I haven't thought about Harc yet. He always disappears morning/afternoon for me and doesn't come back because he's in europe and i'm on the west coast. So the leaving his vote part seems irrelevant to me.

[CrimsonFox]

And he often hits his head against a wall when he sees everyone has long since moved off of his vote and gone elsewhere making his quite irrelevant.

Hopefully he jumps in more tomorrow with lots o stuff. Don't know what to think of him yet.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

I've been looking for that and really can't find anything until the last 40 minutes. After Bhlloy revealed the votes were drifting to mau and J23 but then they snapped over to NTN without much argument until dubb and saldana questioned it. (I agree with them questioning the move, as it happens). Suggests that the wolf/ves might not have been around or didn't want to stick his/their neck/s out in the early stages.

Well the "move" happened in three stages:

1) The early voter - These were dzilla and Grammatica tossing out random votes. These two I would suspect as cowolves more than any actually. Then Danny comes in with his "I want to make it a j23/ntn" race comment a couple of times.

2) The "save your ass" ticket - bhlloy, mauboy, and j23 were ALL in danger of being voted off. All three of them had the lead. It is not surprising that they all three went over to ntn to save themselves especially once the first of the three did it. It was the best move for them to save themselves.

3) The "buriers" - No real insight or logcal explanations behind Raiders Vote on him or my switch to him. Just votes we made. People are saying Autumn is suspicious for this vote. Maybe... He has made a last minute mistake of this as a wolf before trying to save a wolf. (Cube).
If he were a wolf and KNEW there was no extra vote going on on the wolf side then MAYBE he does this. But really ANYONE can have an extra vote. It is a common feature. Not sure if he doesn't just hope that ntn escapes or at least takes a villager with him in a tie.

So the main source of the "late run" were bhlloy/mauboy/j23 trying to save their own asses which I don't find that suspicious in the least.

[dzilla77]

Originally Posted by Commo_Soldier

This got me to go back as I thought someone stated we should maybe tie the vote, which I'm not sure how anyone would think that is good idea.



In my looking back I did find this however.



I was not a fan of the move to switch late and then that last sentence really gets me know. So basically DZ is stating no one should have voted for NTN and tie it back up because a wolf would do that. Interesting.

If ntn is a villager - tying it up again is a wolf move. That sentence right there should give you comfort that I am a villager, because I had no idea he was a wolf.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

I'd really like to hear from Zinto, mckerney, Bug, Thomkal, and Raiders today.

All were mostly absent for various reasons, some unknown. Just where your voting thoughts were for the day and thoughts of our current situation.

My thoughts on the vote: I felt pretty certain that both J23 and NTN were unroled Lightbringers. Ntn didn't throw out any information about himself before he left suggesting he shouldn't be voted for, but then he wasn't a threat for the lynch when he left either. J23 had not come out with a role reveal other than lightbringer, so I was believing him. And mathmatically the odds were just very against us finding a servant on day 1 in the lynch. So that's why I didn't move my vote to either of them.

But I certainly could have been wrong and it turns out I was with NTN. My suggestion about risking a double lynch was to try to help the Adept (seer). I wouldn't normally suggest it, but I thought we could afford the loss of two villagers in this game with the bigger number of players. The Adept is taking a risk each time he uses his powers, so I wanted him to get maximum benefit for the risk. Just think what would have happened if J23 was voted out instead of ntn. The Adept would have scanned ntn and hit his charm against detection and likely ntn would have been scotfree the rest of the game. My suggestion of the double lynch would have shown us if both were lightbringers or not, and if one came up a Servant, would have given the Adept several targets to choose from. If both came up Lightbringers, the Adept could choose to use their power on the more active/"better" players that have been trying to lead the way here. And no I'm not the Adept. Probably seems a bit "wolfy" to suggest taking out two players, but this was a unique situation I thought given the ruleset and number of players in the game.

The fact remains that I could have tried to save NTN in that last hour as I was there all that time catching up on what I had missed. Given that he had the charm plus protection vs the detective's power, it would have been the right thing for a Servant to do in my mind. So I am likely voting for one of the people who were trying to push us away from ntn by either their votes and/or their comments about him during the day. It would have put the Servants in a very good position had they convinced us to lynch J23 instead, and I can't believe they would have done nothing to try to save him.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by saldana

dola, am i missing it somewhere, or is there not a post describing the servant roles?

This is the way it was in the first version Saldana-we knew next to nothing about the Servants when the game started.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Dubb 1 - thomkal
NTN 9 - grammaticus, Danny, Commo, bhlloy, mauboy. j23, RaidersArmy, CF, Autumn
Mauboy 4 - hoops, chief rum, Eaglefan, mckerney
J23 6 - zinto, sndvls, saldana, jackal, Lathum, dubb
Bhlloy 1 - ntndeacon
Lathum 1 - narc
crimson fox 1 - mrbug


this i think, but it isn't official. Only you can do that abe

Reposting this just so we can take a fresher look at it since its 4 pages back now.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Autumn

thomkal votes dubb 83
dzilla votes ntn 84
ntn votes mauboy 88
narc votes mrbug 105
autumn votes J23 116
EF votes danny 117
jackal votes danny 123
bhlloy votes dubb 125
commo votes bhlloy 127
hoops votes mauboy 129
sndvls votes jackal 141
lathum votes danny 142
narc unvotes mrbug 154
narc votes jackal 154
mauboy votes lathum 164
narc unvotes jackal 167
narc votes lathum 167
dubb votes lathum 170
saldana votes dubb 171
saldana unvotes dubb 173
zinto votes J23 178
jackal unvotes danny 199
jackal votes bhlloy 199
J23 votes bhlloy 212
Sndvls unvotes Jackal 213
mckerney votes bhlloy 222
Sndvls votes J23 225
CF votes mauboy 233
grammaticus votes ntn 236
saldana votes J23 242
mrbug votes CF 244
ntn unvotes mauboy 248
ntn votes bhlloy 248
dubb unvotes lathum 249
dubb votes bhlloy 249
mauboy unvotes lathum 250
mauboy votes dubb 250
chief rum votes mauboy 254
((bhlloy reveals as keeper)) 275
bhlloy unvotes dubb 275
bhlloy votes mauboy 275
jackal unvotes bhlloy 281
jackal votes mauboy 283
ef unvotes danny 287
ef votes mauboy 287
jackal unvotes mauboy 296
jackal votes J23 296
danny votes ntn 297
CF unvotes mauboy 306
CF votes J23 306
Lahtum unvotes danny 310
lathum votes J23 310
commo unvotes bhlloy 318
mckerney unvotes bhlloy 329
mckerney votes mauboy 329
commo votes ntn 334
J23 unvotes bhalloy 352
J23 votes mauboy 354
bhlloy unvotes mauboy 357
bhlloy votes ntn 357
mauboy unvotes dubb 361
mauboy votes ntn 361
j23 unvotes mauboy 364
j23 votes ntn 364
dzilla unvotes ntn 377
dubb unvotes bhlloy 386
RA votes ntn 390
CF unvotes J23 393
CF votes ntn 393
dubb votes J23 400
autumn unvotes J23
autumn votes ntn

Thought it would be good to have the two different vote count methods next to each other to compare. Thanks Autumn for this.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Danny

I don't think anyone is ever clear. I think it's clear I was a villager today, but i or you could just as easily be a wolf tomorrow

requoted for truth. The first version of the game gave the Servants corruption powers until the fourth day-this version says something about corruption powers going away at some point but nothing specific about when. So I think its likely they can both corrupt and attack every night and thus one of us has been corrupted.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Commo_Soldier

Yes, it was a crazy day, now that it is deadline for night actions I can go to bed. Just wanted to get out in the off chance I'm NK'd, but more to just get it out. I passed a charm to Bholly, hopefully it will help keep you safe.

unfortunately item passes happen last in the night action sequence, so no chance of saving him with one of those-I'm sure you're not the only one who tried though. A bit surprised our sheriff didn't try to protect him-he had a chance to take out a Servant with his Keeper power, and after they lost one of theirs on day one-it made it that more powerful. if I had that power I might have risked using it on someone like dzilla especially since bholly brought him up as suspicious because he was a very likely kill/conversion target I thought.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

I'm actually surprised someone died tonight.
I don't know the rules of these monsters.

But being able to nightkill AND convert in the same night sounds REALLY powerful and not something I would expect.

Abe said right there in the rules that "they are quite powerful"

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Hi CF. Have not played in a long time. But I did play a few games a while back.

yes nice to see you back playing Gramm. Raiders and Saldana too (and anyone else I'm forgetting who haven't played in a while)

[Thomkal]

okay all caught up, time for breakfast. Be back later and should be able to participate more today thanks to everything working again in my house.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Abe said right there in the rules that "they are quite powerful"

Well there it is then!

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

And he often hits his head against a wall when he sees everyone has long since moved off of his vote and gone elsewhere making his quite irrelevant.

Hopefully he jumps in more tomorrow with lots o stuff. Don't know what to think of him yet.

Don't count on it. I'm just not going to have the time to do much for this game.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I'm almost starting to wonder if Narc, who voted Lathum of all people and kept his vote there even after Lathum claimed to be roled, doesn't have an agenda he is pushing here.

I do have an agenda. The agenda is that we should probably look at people who, you know, were defending a known wolf who we believe was cunning. Rather than, rather perversely, suggesting we should be looking at the people who actually voted ntn.

And "Lathum of all people" made me laugh a bit. You mean the guy who is notoriously one of the best wolves out there and who isn't going to be around much enough to contribute that much if he's a villager. (admittedly the second bit goes for me as well). And yeah, time zones. Sorry about that.

[The Jackal]

Sweet result, gotta love getting lucky like that in such a huge game

VOTE SALDANA

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

I do have an agenda. The agenda is that we should probably look at people who, you know, were defending a known wolf who we believe was cunning. Rather than, rather perversely, suggesting we should be looking at the people who actually voted ntn.

And "Lathum of all people" made me laugh a bit. You mean the guy who is notoriously one of the best wolves out there and who isn't going to be around much enough to contribute that much if he's a villager. (admittedly the second bit goes for me as well). And yeah, time zones. Sorry about that.

you must really think little of me as a WW player to think I would have hung myself out there on day one for what appears to be a limited cunning wolf in a game that has conversions...the conversions are so much more dangerous...

i was actually surprised to see Bholloy dead today...he would have been the best target for a conversion once he used his powers..if i were a wolf, i would have let him live, take his PK (which would likely be a villager), and then converted him and given him that Charm that NTN was carrying.

there could be more than one of those charms if they are one time use only items...we dont know how they work yet...i dont have the slightest idea what my item is even for much less how to use it, so to think i would stick my neck out there for a one-off cunning on day one makes very little sense to me.

[MrBug708]

Just checking in, got tied up at class last night. Working on my Masters Action research project. Glad we got NTN

[saldana]

again, i dont expect not to take some heat today, which is fine, but for my money, i will be looking at the people that came off of Bholloy after his reveal and DIDNT go to NTN

i put my vote on J23 and left it there (after my token dubb vote)...i didnt make any move to save anyone or hang anyone...the people that came off Bholloy and went to either mau or j23 are the people that i think need the closest examination today.

[SnDvls]

you all post a lot when I sleep

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

requoted for truth. The first version of the game gave the Servants corruption powers until the fourth day-this version says something about corruption powers going away at some point but nothing specific about when. So I think its likely they can both corrupt and attack every night and thus one of us has been corrupted.

Maybe they can corrupt up to a certain number of people or times versus ending in a specific round.

At this point, the best I have to go on is the early pull off NTN by dzilla, so I am going to vote him.

VOTE DZILLA

[Abe Sargent]

morning