The Trump Presidency – 2016

[JPhillips]

The cold reality is we need China more than we need Taiwan. To some degree we have to placate the Chinese on this issue, because it's trivial in comparison to North Korea.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I don't think he cares about the military-industrial complex, but agree on the first half. I do wish that people stopped pretending it was a one way street though - after about 30 years of continuous progress towards openness and Western ideals China has grown increasingly insular and centralized in the last 5 years under its current administration. As suspect as the Trump call was for other reasons, even the Taiwan kerfuffle illustrates that - I'm kind of past the point where we need to tip toe around on eggshells and pretend Taiwan isn't a real country deserving of full diplomatic recognition in 2016.

This. Modern nations don't need this kind of pussyfooting around any more. We need more of people (and gov't) simply calling it like it is.

[digamma]

Yeah, I mean, we're supposed to take him seriously, but not literally, right?

At some point, push will meet shove and I hope that we're prepared.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

This. Modern nations don't need this kind of pussyfooting around any more. We need more of people (and gov't) simply calling it like it is.

Yeah!

We should all do this in our personal lives, too. Easy Mac - tell your wife what's what regarding your parking card. No pussyfooting around! Let her know where she stands with REAL TALK.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Yeah!

We should all do this in our personal lives, too. Easy Mac - tell your wife what's what regarding your parking card. No pussyfooting around! Let her know where she stands with REAL TALK.

Equating Easy Mac's wife to China? That should go over well in the Mac household.

[cartman]

Yeah, I mean, why even have a State Department. No sense in treating complex issues with a long term view of things. Just spout off whatever you feel like at the moment.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by cartman

Yeah, I mean, why even have a State Department. No sense in treating complex issues with a long term view of things. Just spout off whatever you feel like at the moment.

Diplomacy is easy. Don't know why we make it so difficult with long term thinking.

We're all obviously qualified to be general managers for professional sports teams by posting on this site so I don't see why we can't act as secretary of state as well.

[Easy Mac]

She does think I have a thing for Asian women.

[cartman]

I mean, he was tweeting about being made fun of on SNL. How in the literal fuck is he going to react when something that really matters on the world stage occurs? He hasn't been conferring with the State Department AT ALL on any of these calls he has been making to world leaders.

[JPhillips]

What about modernity has eliminated the need for diplomacy?

[Subby]

I can't believe I am saying this, but in the end, deeds are a more important than words, even in diplomacy. I just think that we might be overreacting to the volumetric fuckton of horseshit being spewed from his twitter account.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Subby

I can't believe I am saying this, but in the end, deeds are a more important than words, even in diplomacy. I just think that we might be overreacting to the volumetric fuckton of horseshit being spewed from his twitter account.

Eh... in diplomacy, words can be just as important as deeds.

[Dutch]

Maybe y'all should have thought about this before parading Hillary around as a viable candidate. Good job!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I'm kind of past the point where we need to tip toe around on eggshells and pretend Taiwan isn't a real country deserving of full diplomatic recognition in 2016.

This.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Subby

I can't believe I am saying this, but in the end, deeds are a more important than words, even in diplomacy. I just think that we might be overreacting to the volumetric fuckton of horseshit being spewed from his twitter account.

Yeah but we've been overreacting for the past year and a half. Why stop now?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I'm kind of past the point where we need to tip toe around on eggshells and pretend Taiwan isn't a real country deserving of full diplomatic recognition in 2016.

But there exists the awkward fact that Taiwan (or Republic of China, as they refer to themselves) asserts a claim to the entirety of mainland China. So in acknowledging the RoC, you have to be careful as to what you are acknowledging.

There is the separate issue that because of the rival claims, the PRC refuses diplomatic relations the states that recognize the RoC. Perhaps the US can negotiate between the two to get the RoC to drop its claims on mainland China, which may allow for recognition of both countries... but I don't think that's likely.

I mean, I don't necessarily blame them, it'd be like if Jamaica (as a British Commonwealth country) asserted a claim over the entirety of the USA due to pre-revolution sovereignty of the colonies by the UK. We'd be a little pissed at that.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I mean, I don't necessarily blame them, it'd be like if Jamaica (as a British Commonwealth country) asserted a claim over the entirety of the USA due to pre-revolution sovereignty of the colonies by the UK. We'd be a little pissed at that.

But we would have a cool story involving John Candy and a bobsled team!

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

But there exists the awkward fact that Taiwan (or Republic of China, as they refer to themselves) asserts a claim to the entirety of mainland China. So in acknowledging the RoC, you have to be careful as to what you are acknowledging.

There is the separate issue that because of the rival claims, the PRC refuses diplomatic relations the states that recognize the RoC. Perhaps the US can negotiate between the two to get the RoC to drop its claims on mainland China, which may allow for recognition of both countries... but I don't think that's likely.

I mean, I don't necessarily blame them, it'd be like if Jamaica (as a British Commonwealth country) asserted a claim over the entirety of the USA due to pre-revolution sovereignty of the colonies by the UK. We'd be a little pissed at that.

I'm pretty sure since Chiang Kai-Shek's death, or at least the official dissolution of the national assembly in 2005, that Taiwan would be more than happy to give up any claim to mainland China if the PRC reciprocated. And even the most hardline anti-PRC elements of our foreign policy establishment would laugh at any idea that Taiwan deserved any mainland territory, so I'm not worried about anyone either proposing we recognize ROC's claims or anyone taking that idea seriously on the PRC side.

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The cold reality is we need China more than we need Taiwan. To some degree we have to placate the Chinese on this issue, because it's trivial in comparison to North Korea.

We "need" China less than they "need" us, and the North Korean regime would be out within a year if the Chinese and South Korean governments stopped propping it up because they're terrified of what will happen if/when it falls.

But you (and plenty of other people) are still talking about us needing to coddle and placate China like they're some naive little child, when they're the ones being aggressively expansionist, internally repressive and increasingly hostile to foreign interests. I don't want Trump to do it in his haphazard short-term way, but I have zero problem with a more firm policy that essentially says if you're going to try and bully your neighbors and only partake in the parts of international trade you want to we'll show you how the "decadent West" still has a bigger economy and a more powerful military. Which is actually something Obama has been doing, even if he doesn't use bombastic rhetoric.

[PilotMan]

Trumpgrets.

[RainMaker]

I think the one thing I'm blown away with is all these people who Trump trashed groveling at his feet for positions now. Trump likened Carson to a child molester months back. He called Cruz's wife ugly and his Dad a traitor. Called Nikki Haley an embarrassment to the state.

Maybe that's just politics but it's weird that there is not a line that he can cross with people where their pride steps in.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I'm pretty sure since Chiang Kai-Shek's death, or at least the official dissolution of the national assembly in 2005, that Taiwan would be more than happy to give up any claim to mainland China if the PRC reciprocated. And even the most hardline anti-PRC elements of our foreign policy establishment would laugh at any idea that Taiwan deserved any mainland territory, so I'm not worried about anyone either proposing we recognize ROC's claims or anyone taking that idea seriously on the PRC side.

We "need" China less than they "need" us, and the North Korean regime would be out within a year if the Chinese and South Korean governments stopped propping it up because they're terrified of what will happen if/when it falls.

But you (and plenty of other people) are still talking about us needing to coddle and placate China like they're some naive little child, when they're the ones being aggressively expansionist, internally repressive and increasingly hostile to foreign interests. I don't want Trump to do it in his haphazard short-term way, but I have zero problem with a more firm policy that essentially says if you're going to try and bully your neighbors and only partake in the parts of international trade you want to we'll show you how the "decadent West" still has a bigger economy and a more powerful military. Which is actually something Obama has been doing, even if he doesn't use bombastic rhetoric.

No. I'm saying that a fight over Taiwan will likely cost us more than we can possibly gain. Because of that, it's stupid to pick a fight, even if we can "win."

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

No. I'm saying that a fight over Taiwan will likely cost us more than we can possibly gain. Because of that, it's stupid to pick a fight, even if we can "win."

And if he ignored the call from the Taiwanese leader you would have said that was stupid.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Dutch

And if he ignored the call from the Taiwanese leader you would have said that was stupid.

The thing is ALL these calls normally happen I'd expect however they're done quietly and only made public in sensible circumstances in order to ensure that decent relationships are maintained throughout.

It's a bit like the situation where you're friends with two people who hate each other, that's not a problem unless you continually tell them about how great the other person is and that you're their best friend ... that would be stupid and a guaranteed way to wind them up.

[NobodyHere]

Trump says 'cancel order' on too expensive new Air Force One

If there's actually truth to this then I may actually believe Trump wants to tackle government bloat.

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Trump says 'cancel order' on too expensive new Air Force One

If there's actually truth to this then I may actually believe Trump wants to tackle government bloat.

I suppose the tradeoff depends on whether or not there are security and operational capabilities that the new design would bring that outweigh the inconvenience of doing without or the cost of refurbishing. Is thirty years too soon to retire a platform? I've just got a feeling that once he flies on it a couple of times, Trump is going to complain on Twitter about how outdated and sad the AF1 experience is and decide either to spend $2B to renovate the interiors or try to muscle his way into using a Gulfstream or something dumb like that.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Dutch

And if he ignored the call from the Taiwanese leader you would have said that was stupid.

No. That's what we've been doing since Reagan.

[Bonesaw]

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Trump says 'cancel order' on too expensive new Air Force One

If there's actually truth to this then I may actually believe Trump wants to tackle government bloat.

I will say that the change of actually having the (soon to be) president openly posting his thoughts to social media is a fantastic change of pace IMO. Now you can agree/disagree with his decisions in each instance, but I'm not sure I've ever felt like I had a window into the Oval Office like this before.

Of course, his detractors are pointing out every situation where it may be a problem, but I think the benefits of information to the U.S. as far as what he's thinking far outweigh the consequences. Also, he can get far better feedback by just throwing ideas out there to see if they stick on social media as opposed to the ridiculous lengths that politicians go to in order to leak out information to see if people like it currently.

[cartman]

By all means. Let's embrace a platform with a limit of 140 characters to introduce and debate national policy matters.

[JPhillips]

I'm betting he doesn't use Air Force One and charges the government for his Trump jet.

[cuervo72]

Son and I have long considered that.

[Zinto]

This story in which Boeing CEO expressed concerns about Trump's views on trade posted just before Trump tweet --https://t.co/aBvK87GzzW

— Jake Tapper (@jaketapper) December 6, 2016

Sounds like this isn't about government bloat but it is about dissent Trump's trade policies.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'm betting he doesn't use Air Force One and HIS CHILDREN charges the government for THEIR Trump jet.

He's fixing the conflict, remember?

[stevew]

4 billion for an Air Force One seems reasonable, regardless of who is inside. We can't have the president in danger, regardless of whether you like him or not.

PS Mike Pence would be worse.

[JPhillips]

Let me start by saying I don't think this happened in this case...

But, would it be illegal for the president to dump or buy stock before a policy announcement directly effecting the company? Can you insider trade based off of what you are going to say?

[stevew]

Apparently members of congress are immune from insider trading rules, so I'd assume the president is as well.

[Young Drachma]

Plus he's not President yet.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I will say that the change of actually having the (soon to be) president openly posting his thoughts to social media is a fantastic change of pace IMO. Now you can agree/disagree with his decisions in each instance, but I'm not sure I've ever felt like I had a window into the Oval Office like this before.

Of course, his detractors are pointing out every situation where it may be a problem, but I think the benefits of information to the U.S. as far as what he's thinking far outweigh the consequences. Also, he can get far better feedback by just throwing ideas out there to see if they stick on social media as opposed to the ridiculous lengths that politicians go to in order to leak out information to see if people like it currently.

Except that when you're substituting press conferences with actual people asking you questions you need to answer on the spot with 140 character statements about what you want to talk about it only serves the person posting on Twitter.

It doesn't serve the people. It doesn't serve the office. It holds no accountability to the job. It's a limit on openness and a much lower standard of communication than any other means we've had before.

Why not just come out and say what you want? Let everyone argue at your feet while they figure out what you meant? No follow up questions, no immediacy of people questioning your facts, you just get to say whatever is on your mind.

It's a terrible, terrible con job on the populace.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by stevew

4 billion for an Air Force One seems reasonable, regardless of who is inside. We can't have the president in danger, regardless of whether you like him or not.

PS Mike Pence would be worse.

It's actually 2 AF 1's and they wouldn't even be in service until 2024. After Trump, even if he were re-elected.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

No. I'm saying that a fight over Taiwan will likely cost us more than we can possibly gain. Because of that, it's stupid to pick a fight, even if we can "win."

And it would cost China and the ruling party more than it would cost us, so I remain convinced neither side will actually get further than talk and possibly some tariffs. But Trump's not the only one picking a fight. Circumstances are changing over there, between an increasingly antagonistic China and a new Taiwanese ruling party. I'm fine with people who think we should favor mainland China over Taiwan out of naked self-interest but the US policy and response can't be the same it has been.

Originally Posted by JPhillips

No. That's what we've been doing since Reagan.

Nixon broke with decades of policy when he visited China. Carter broke with decades of policy when he recognized Beijing. Obama broke with decades of policy when he lifted the embargo on Cuba. I'd say all those decisions were correct. But putting aside my idealism and dislike of ambiguity, this is a phone call. We sell Taiwan billions in military technology, Congress repeatedly renews the Six Assurances, and we create a special non-embassy Embassy but we can't accept a phone call? China's just bitching because they're trying to expand their power in what they perceive as their sphere of influence and using the Putin playbook. If they weren't complaining about this they'd find something else to badger us about and use the useful idiots in foreign policy circles and the media to try and prevent us from pushing back more effectively against their agenda.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

And it would cost China and the ruling party more than it would cost us, so I remain convinced neither side will actually get further than talk and possibly some tariffs. But Trump's not the only one picking a fight. Circumstances are changing over there, between an increasingly antagonistic China and a new Taiwanese ruling party. I'm fine with people who think we should favor mainland China over Taiwan out of naked self-interest but the US policy and response can't be the same it has been.
Nixon broke with decades of policy when he visited China. Carter broke with decades of policy when he recognized Beijing. Obama broke with decades of policy when he lifted the embargo on Cuba. I'd say all those decisions were correct. But putting aside my idealism and dislike of ambiguity, this is a phone call. We sell Taiwan billions in military technology, Congress repeatedly renews the Six Assurances, and we create a special non-embassy Embassy but we can't accept a phone call? China's just bitching because they're trying to expand their power in what they perceive as their sphere of influence and using the Putin playbook. If they weren't complaining about this they'd find something else to badger us about and use the useful idiots in foreign policy circles and the media to try and prevent us from pushing back more effectively against their agenda.

If China were to invade Taiwan and take it over with force, the US would be pressured much more to do something about it with official diplomatic status rather than as an un-official position. As it is right now, we provide weapons as a deterrence to Chinese aggression, but the lack of full diplomatic presence is what keeps our noses clean if China went full Stalin, and gives us an out in a war we don't want to be a part of.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

It's actually 2 AF 1's and they wouldn't even be in service until 2024. After Trump, even if he were re-elected.

They also don't cost $4 billion.

[Easy Mac]

I feel like this pizza place story isn't getting nearly the amount of press it should.

Looking on news sites for it, when I actually see it, I'd say comments are 2-1 in favor of the gunman. I just can't fathom how there are that many of these people out there.

The argument is, the mainstream media lies... except it doesn't. That's the argument of the people who put out these insane stories and conspiracies. Somehow, it seems that the world really has turned into a place where if you just yell and repeat something enough times, it has more weight than actual truth.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Somehow, it seems that the world really has turned into a place where if you just yell and repeat something enough times, it has more weight than actual truth.

Like this?

CNN commentator Scottie Nell Hughes: Facts no longer exist - The Washington Post

“One thing that has been interesting this entire campaign season to watch is that people that say facts are facts, they’re not really facts. Everybody has a way, it’s kind of like looking at ratings or looking at a glass of half-full water. Everybody has a way of interpreting them to be the truth or not true.”

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

They also don't cost $4 billion.

But who's counting. Let's just random tweet out BS and see what sticks.

[miked]

I love how the new thing is to claim a lie, and then say it's true until it is disproven (the pizza story).

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I feel like this pizza place story isn't getting nearly the amount of press it should.

Looking on news sites for it, when I actually see it, I'd say comments are 2-1 in favor of the gunman. I just can't fathom how there are that many of these people out there.

The argument is, the mainstream media lies... except it doesn't. That's the argument of the people who put out these insane stories and conspiracies. Somehow, it seems that the world really has turned into a place where if you just yell and repeat something enough times, it has more weight than actual truth.

It's a strange world now. I do think the media deserves some blame for the situation we're in. They have been bias and done poor, sensationalist reporting for a long time now. That has consequences. Now you have a segment of the population who doesn't believe a word they say and gets caught up in dopey conspiracy theories.

It doesn't help either that our President-elect is a conspiracy theorist. He surrounds himself and gives credibility to them too.

Facts don't matter. Reality doesn't matter. It's just a game of propaganda at this point by extremists. Everyone in the middle now gets screwed by it.

[digamma]

They have been bias. Indeed. Bias itself. They have been.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Except that when you're substituting press conferences with actual people asking you questions you need to answer on the spot with 140 character statements about what you want to talk about it only serves the person posting on Twitter.

It doesn't serve the people. It doesn't serve the office. It holds no accountability to the job. It's a limit on openness and a much lower standard of communication than any other means we've had before.

Why not just come out and say what you want? Let everyone argue at your feet while they figure out what you meant? No follow up questions, no immediacy of people questioning your facts, you just get to say whatever is on your mind.

It's a terrible, terrible con job on the populace.

LOL. This is a bit ridiculous. He's doing a lot of stuff, but he's not even president yet. If he starts skipping out on regular press conferences once he's in office, then we'll talk. He's just making a victory tour right now and little else. No other presidents had regular news conferences before they were in office or had completed their cabinet.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Interesting opinion from a Democrat. I continue to be amazed at how many politically-motivated people are missing that Trump is clearly drawing the line in the sand with something as simple as a chat with Taiwan.

I'm a Democrat but I've gotta admit it's now Trump 2, Dems 0 | Fox News