Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023)

[RainMaker]

Another odd question is if Israel wants a ceasefire, why are they funding primaries against any candidate here that calls for a ceasefire?

[albionmoonlight]

FWIW, I tend to avoid "silent majority" type arguments. It is way too easy to fall into "We the People believe . . . " traps where you just assume that everyone must surely agree with you and your friends.

But here I swear it feels right. Pretty much everyone I talk to in person thinks

(1) Hamas is an evil terrorist organization
(2) Israel has the right to defend itself and rescue hostages
(3) Israel is killing too many innocent civilians as it does number 2.

But none of the screaming voices I hear online can hold those three ideas in their head at once.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

FWIW, I tend to avoid "silent majority" type arguments. It is way too easy to fall into "We the People believe . . . " traps where you just assume that everyone must surely agree with you and your friends.

But here I swear it feels right. Pretty much everyone I talk to in person thinks

(1) Hamas is an evil terrorist organization
(2) Israel has the right to defend itself and rescue hostages
(3) Israel is killing too many innocent civilians as it does number 2.

But none of the screaming voices I hear online can hold those three ideas in their head at once.

I tend to avoid all political talk outside of at home with my wife and a couple places on the internet, but but this is where my wife and I both are. Seems fairly straightforward in this regard but the internet shows us otherwise.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

FWIW, I tend to avoid "silent majority" type arguments. It is way too easy to fall into "We the People believe . . . " traps where you just assume that everyone must surely agree with you and your friends.

But here I swear it feels right. Pretty much everyone I talk to in person thinks

(1) Hamas is an evil terrorist organization
(2) Israel has the right to defend itself and rescue hostages
(3) Israel is killing too many innocent civilians as it does number 2.

But none of the screaming voices I hear online can hold those three ideas in their head at once.

yeah right? Like one FB friend does nothing but show videos of palestines which contain stats. Nothing about anything else. The whole college campus thing seems similar. Is the protesting on college campus thing a huge deal? Who knows. The internet sure thought it was. Looking at things in a vacuum is unhelpful as well as it doesn't really make people care about your cause. It's like the ultratrans supporters yelling at me in facebook and reddit. They START the argument then if you say ANYTHING they yell even more with other people passive aggressive liking them and downvoting you.

[Flasch186]

Hamas leadership understands that civilian casualties help their cause and are accused of putting civilians in harms way

Hamas also claiming that they don’t put civilians in harms way

Is a tough circle to square


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

FWIW, I tend to avoid "silent majority" type arguments. It is way too easy to fall into "We the People believe . . . " traps where you just assume that everyone must surely agree with you and your friends.

But here I swear it feels right. Pretty much everyone I talk to in person thinks

(1) Hamas is an evil terrorist organization
(2) Israel has the right to defend itself and rescue hostages
(3) Israel is killing too many innocent civilians as it does number 2.

But none of the screaming voices I hear online can hold those three ideas in their head at once.

It really is straight forward, but not being a zealot for either side either makes you a pro-genocide baby killer, or completely anti-Semitic. Being critical of Israel doesn't mean you hate Jews, and believing that Israel has a right to exist doesn't mean you hate Palestinians.

[RainMaker]

I think the issue is more that the government has chosen their side and is funding the genocide with our tax dollars. I would not support funding Hamas either and didn't agree with us supporting them over the PA.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

FWIW, I tend to avoid "silent majority" type arguments. It is way too easy to fall into "We the People believe . . . " traps where you just assume that everyone must surely agree with you and your friends.

But here I swear it feels right. Pretty much everyone I talk to in person thinks

(1) Hamas is an evil terrorist organization
(2) Israel has the right to defend itself and rescue hostages
(3) Israel is killing too many innocent civilians as it does number 2.

But none of the screaming voices I hear online can hold those three ideas in their head at once.

I agree with 1-3 and I'd offer up #4 for consideration ...

(4) Both sides have committed a lot of war crimes

[miked]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think the issue is more that the government has chosen their side and is funding the genocide with our tax dollars. I would not support funding Hamas either and didn't agree with us supporting them over the PA.

I mean, we and others fund the hell out of Hamas. Every bit of ais sent to Gaza is taken by Hamas. You think they are taking the financial aid from the world and using it to buy food and medical care for their people? If you do, you're insane, they are using aid to buy weapons. Weapons that even pre-October 7th were being used too fire rockets into Israel daily. This is not a peaceful group, they are the equivalent of Al Qaeda.

I understand you believe they are justified because they live under Israeli control (which they do not really, since they do with their money and people as they please). But there is no winning for Israel either, it's not like they can formally recognize Hamas/Gaza, and they can't let people just go back and forth at will because we've seen the bus stop bombings and more. I'm not actually sure there is a way out as long as Hamas runs Gaza and the other arab countries do not do a thing. Egypt is not lining up to help them, in fact their border crossing may be rougher.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by miked

they are the equivalent of Al Qaeda.

This is where the mask comes off. They're polar opposites with completely different goals. They mostly despise each other. Similar to people who compare the Taliban to ISIS. You can't clump every Arab into a single group.

Regarding the other stuff, aid was mostly being handled by large organizations with strong reputations. Doctors without Borders, UNRWA, Red Cross, Save the Children, etc. If their aid was being stolen, I'm sure they would have expressed that. The biggest threat to aid was targeted assassinations by the IDF which are quite common.

I can't find any evidence that Hamas is stealing aid and selling it (who would they even sell it to?). They don't need to do that either because Qatar just drops off suitcases of cash for them when they need it (and Israel has helped them out over the years too). If you want to hurt Hamas, you target Qatar. But we can't because they give our defense industry billions for weapons which I guess makes you an ally.

Originally Posted by miked

I understand you believe they are justified because they live under Israeli control (which they do not really, since they do with their money and people as they please).

This part is also really weird. People in Gaza absolutely live under Israeli control. It's a concentration camp by every definition. Israel controls who and what enters the prison down to the calorie (not kidding, they count the calories). Every resource from clean water to access to the internet is controlled by Israel. The idea that people living in Gaza have any autonomy is pure fiction.

If you want to learn more about Hamas and how it came to be, I'd highly recommend Radio War Nerd's history of the group. John Dolan is a professor and probably one of the most knowledgeable Americans on the Middle East where he lived and taught for some time. It's mostly the early years, so doesn't cover modern events. But you get an idea for how they came about and what their position is.

https://player.fm/series/war-nerd-ra...404-hamas-pt-1

https://player.fm/series/war-nerd-ra...pt-2-1988-2006

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Regarding the other stuff, aid was mostly being handled by large organizations with strong reputations. Doctors without Borders, UNRWA, Red Cross, Save the Children, etc. If their aid was being stolen, I'm sure they would have expressed that. The biggest threat to aid was targeted assassinations by the IDF which are quite common.

I can't find any evidence that Hamas is stealing aid and selling it (who would they even sell it to?).[/url]

There's evidence but probably not enough to convince anyone it's "systemic" right now. I think it's fair to expect some "irregularities" here and there.

re: Red Cross. There was an article on why Red Cross doesn't do more to see the hostages. The bottom line is they are in no position to make any demands and they want to stay neutral so they don't make any negative statements against Hamas. But yeah, the reason why Red Cross hasn't visited the hostages is Hamas, not their lack of willingness.

re: UNRWA. Fire everyone including leadership team. Replace leadership team with one that is truly neutral, don't get into politics, establish clear cut rules for neutrality, and rehire & rebuild. Maybe talk to Red Cross (see above) on how they try to maintain neutrality, hire right people that don't publicly participate or condone Oct 7-like terrorism, all the while provided needed services. I understand it's hard to not go "native" when they hire from the "native population", so maybe get some idealistic western college kids to do a gap year in Gaza to help out.

i24NEWS

Hamas, the terrorist group controlling the Gaza Strip, attempted to divert a significant humanitarian aid shipment intended for Gaza from Jordan, according to statements made by a U.S. State Department spokesman.

Matthew Miller, speaking during a press briefing, revealed that Hamas managed to hijack the aid shipment earlier in the week. However, the aid was ultimately recovered and returned to the organization responsible for its distribution.

"The UN is in the process of recovering the goods, or has already recovered them, but Hamas committed an unacceptable act in diverting this aid," Miller emphasized, highlighting the gravity of the situation. He further noted that the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) is expected to issue a statement condemning the incident imminently.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

This part is also really weird. People in Gaza absolutely live under Israeli control. It's a concentration camp by every definition. Israel controls who and what enters the prison down to the calorie (not kidding, they count the calories). Every resource from clean water to access to the internet is controlled by Israel. The idea that people living in Gaza have any autonomy is pure fiction.

And now, per Paul Harvey, for the rest of the story

Regarding calorie counting, it was back in the 2007 blockade. If it's happening now, provide your non-tiktok and non-X sources. I would like to read more about it.

Israel calculated the number of calories Palestinians would need to avoid malnutrition under its blockade of the Gaza Strip, according to a study which the Supreme Court forced the government to release.
"It was part of a research paper that came up in two discussions and that we never made use of," Defense Ministry official Guy Inbar said on Wednesday after the document was published by Gisha, an Israeli human rights group that petitioned to receive it.

Release of the document, presented in January 2008, shed new light on the thinking that helped to shape the blockade that Israel tightened in 2007 after the Gaza Strip was seized by the Hamas Islamist movement.

Palestinians described the restrictions, which drew international criticism and were eased in 2010, as collective punishment stifling their economy.

The study, "Food Consumption in the Gaza Strip - The Red Lines", estimated the required daily calorie intake in the territory at 2,279 per person.

The document said that "in order to maintain the basic fabric of life" in the area, Israel would allow in 106 trucks with food and other essential goods every day. Gisha said some 400 trucks delivered goods to Gaza before the blockade.

re: Israel controlling who enters & exits prison. We forget the role Egypt plays and, of course, the lack of significant support from any other Arab country besides Iran/Lebanon besides words. I'm pretty sure Egypt views Hamas as a threat also (along with Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Kuwait) and hence the strict restrictions. Maybe if they promise to stay peaceful and not align with a country's internal enemy (Egypt), not try cause internal strife (Lebanon), overthrow countries that invite you in (Jordan), root for another country that invades another Arab country (Kuwait) or slaughter 1,100+ and kidnap 200+ people (Israel) .... the attitudes could change?

Rafah Border Crossing - Wikipedia

After the Israeli disengagement in 2005, the monthly average number of entries and exits through Rafah Crossing reached about 40,000. After the capture of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit in June 2006, the crossing was closed 76% of the time and after Hamas' takeover of the Gaza Strip it was closed permanently except for infrequent limited openings by Egypt.[18]

From June 2010 to January 2011, the monthly average number of exits and entries through Rafah reached 19,000. After May 2011, when Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak was replaced with Mohamed Morsi, the number grew to 40,000 per month. When Morsi was deposed by the army in July 2013, the Crossing was again almost completely shut down.

In August 2014, for the first time since the start of the Gaza blockade in 2007 Egypt allowed the United Nations World Food Programme (WFP) to bring food through the Rafah crossing. It provided food to feed around 150,000 people for 5 days.[19] In 2014, an average of 8,119 exits and entries of people were recorded at the crossing monthly. In September 2015, it was circa 3,300, while the Gaza population numbered 1.8 million people.[18] Between 24 October 2014 and September 2015, the crossing had been opened for only 34 days.[20]

For the Palestinians, they need to learn to live in the modern world and accept reality. Make peace, not going to get everything you want. West Bank, faults and all, is trying. Hamas in Gaza, not so much.

Just a moment...

If that were to happen, they would have nowhere in the Arab world to go, says former U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker. Despite public support for Palestinian rights, in truth nearly every Arab state has long viewed the Palestinians with “fear and loathing,” Crocker says. This is especially true of Egypt, which will continue to refuse to admit Palestinians from across the border, he says.

[RainMaker]

Gaza isn't in Egypt, Lebanon, or Jordan. Are you too dumb to pull up a fucking map?

Do you know how insane it is to tell people in a concentration camp to accept reality? Just psycho shit dude. Seek psychiatric help.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Gaza isn't in Egypt, Lebanon, or Jordan. Are you too dumb to pull up a fucking map?

Do you know how insane it is to tell people in a concentration camp to accept reality? Just psycho shit dude. Seek psychiatric help.

My rebuttal is it's obvious you don't know where Egypt or Jordan are on the map.

No doubt there were significant restrictions going in/out of Gaza (and West Bank) pre-Oct 7. re: your prison/concentration camp claim, just pointing out that it's not Israel alone and Egypt & Jordan (for West Bank) plays a significant role (with the other countries for emphasis).

Hamas & PA haven't been very good neighbors in the Middle-East neighborhood subdivision. The parents are the neighborhood
unemployed, welfare queen troublemakers; the rich but power tripping grandfather (Iran) is paying the mortgage; the uncle (UNRWA) comes to supposedly help but is really an enabler to the woe is me, victim mentality; and it's very unfortunate the kids are paying the price.

Why don't Egypt nor Jordan have open borders with the Palestinians or welcome them with open arms? Rhetorical question, we know the answer, see below. Why don't you go yell about Egypt or Jordan? Another rhetorical question, we know the answer ...

Maybe if they promise to stay peaceful and not align with a country's internal enemy (Egypt), not try cause internal strife (Lebanon), overthrow countries that invite you in (Jordan), root for another country that invades another Arab country (Kuwait) or slaughter 1,100+ and kidnap 200+ people (Israel) .... the attitudes could change?

Hamas (and to a lesser extent PA nowadays), need to read the below book, or something similar.

[RainMaker]

The idea that it is other countries responsibility to help ethnically cleanse land for a another country is insane. Not to mention morally repugnant to demand people have to leave their homes and lands so a far right ethnostate can expand its reach.

There are well over 5 million Palestinians that Isreal restricts basic human rights to. Hamas is maybe 40,000 members. Probably much less since October.

Same propaganda and justification the Nazis used. Seek help.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The idea that it is other countries responsibility to help ethnically cleanse land for an another country is insane. Not to mention morally repugnant to demand people have to leave their homes and lands so a far right ethnostate can expand its reach.

Put whatever slant you want on it (and your misinterpretation of what I’m saying) but bottom line - others Arab countries contribute to this prison/concentration camp you claim is happening. See map and location of where Egypt and Jordan.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Congrats Joe (and Blinken) on the ceasefire deal

[Edward64]

I read they were trying to reword it but yeah, my guess is lower odds now.

To be clear, in this proposal neither side accepted the Blinken proposal. So, call it a "both sides" non-acceptance.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I read they were trying to reword it but yeah, my guess is lower odds now.

To be clear, in this proposal neither side accepted the Blinken proposal. So, call it a "both sides" non-acceptance.

Some progress on the "rewording", new language.

Just a moment...

Qatar and Egypt on Wednesday delivered Hamas' updated response to Israel's proposal for a hostage and ceasefire deal in Gaza, the Israeli Mossad said in a statement.

Axios reported over the weekend that the Biden administration has presented new language for parts of the proposed hostage and ceasefire deal in an effort to bridge remaining gaps and reach an agreement.

A little more specifics on the rewording.

The new language that the U.S. presented — and that Qatari and Egyptian mediators pressed Hamas hard to accept — was focused on Article 8 in the proposal.
:
This part of the agreement outlines Israel-Hamas negotiations that would begin during implementation of the first stage of the deal. The talks would focus on setting the exact conditions for the second stage of the deal, which includes reaching "sustainable calm" in Gaza.

Hamas wants these negotiations to focus only on the number and identity of Palestinian prisoners who will be released from Israeli jails in return for every living Israeli soldier or male hostage held in Gaza.

Israel, on the other hand, wants the ability to raise the de-militarization of Gaza and other issues during these negotiations.

[RainMaker]

8% of the population.

Just a moment...

[Edward64]

Nothing confirmed yet by western MSM but lots of chatter that Mohammed Deif, head of Hamas military wing, was taken out in that strike in the safe zone strike that kill a lot of people, some innocent I’m sure.

[GrantDawg]

Israeli Security Sources are claiming that a Large Drone approached Tel Aviv at Low-Altitude from the direction of the Mediterranean Sea, before passing over the U.S. Consulate and eventually Striking a nearby Building less than 100 Meters from the Consulate.

— OSINTdefender (@sentdefender) July 19, 2024

[RainMaker]

Just a moment...

[Edward64]

I guess Hamas was hiding amongst civilians/safezone after all (in addition to holding hostages in civilian buildings). Still no confirmation on Deif but another brigade commander has gone to collect his 72 virgins (or 72 raisins)

Israel-Hamas war: At least 90 Palestinians reported killed in Israeli strike in southern Gaza targeting Mohammed Deif | CNN

[Edward64]

Should’ve stayed in Qatar.

I wonder if US knew about this beforehand and what they said? This target is prob one the US did not have clear veto over.

Iran has confirmed Mr Haniyeh and his bodyguard were killed at a guest house in northern Tehran at 02:00 local time by a missile fired from beyond Iran’s borders.

[GrantDawg]

They are now saying it wasn't a missile. Instead, it was a bomb smuggled into the safe house that had been there for two months. It was detonated once they confirmed he was in residence.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[Edward64]

Israel has finally said Deif has gone to eat his 72 raisins.

They have been wrong before though. If true (and even if not) been a good couple weeks for Bibi.

[Edward64]

Interesting to see Irans response. I have to believe it’ll be much more severe than a bunch of missiles/drones which were knocked out of the sky and showed Irans impotence.

Just a moment...

U.S. officials say they expect any Iranian retaliation to be from the same playbook as their Apr. 13 attack on Israel — but potentially larger in scope — and it could also involve the Lebanese Hezbollah.

Needless to say if you are traveling over the Middle East, reschedule

Several U.S. and international airlines, including United, Delta, Lufthansa and Swiss, announced they are suspending flights to and from Israel.

[Edward64]

Good to see some internal reviews here …

reuters.com

Nine staff members of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees (UNWRA) may have been involved in the Oct. 7, 2023, Hamas attack on Israel, and they will be fired, the United Nations said on Monday.

"For nine people, the evidence was sufficient to conclude that they may have been involved in the seventh of October attacks," Deputy spokesperson Farhan Haq said

He was referring to findings of the U.N. Office of Internal Oversight Services, which he said had completed its investigation into the alleged involvement of 19 UNRWA staff members in the attacks.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Interesting to see Irans response. I have to believe it’ll be much more severe than a bunch of missiles/drones which were knocked out of the sky and showed Irans impotence.

The Iranian attack did kill an innocent 7-year old girl in Israel. It wasn't reported much because she was Bedouin and those Arab communities don't get bomb shelters like the white communities do due to apartheid.

[RainMaker]

Schlesinger on Channel 12 on rape of Palestinian detainees suspected of terror: “It’s also first of all what they deserve (…) and secondly, maybe it will also serve as a deterrent (…) it’s a very worthy revenge - just a shame we don’t do it in an institutionalised manner.” pic.twitter.com/fKjR5q9PPi

— Hanno Hauenstein (@hahauenstein) August 7, 2024

[RainMaker]

Haaretz Investigation: Israeli Army Uses Palestinian Civilians to Inspect Potentially Booby-trapped Tunnels in Gaza - Israel News - Haaretz.com

[Edward64]

Fun times. Major escalation.

If there are any Americans in Lebanon, return now or don't complain if this war widens and you get trapped.

I remember watching a Bourdain episode on Lebanon. I'd like to visit one day when its economy recovers and there's peace & calm.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cxx2y4dpr3et

Israel's military says it has conducted pre-emptive air strikes against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon after detecting plans for a significant attack against its territory

Hezbollah confirms it has started "phase one" of an attack on Israel, beginning by firing a wave of hundreds of Katyusha rockets and drones towards Israel

Hezbollah says today's operation has now been "completed and accomplished" - in the past hour Israel says it has struck more Hezbollah rocket launchers

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Fun times. Major escalation.

If there are any Americans in Lebanon, return now or don't complain if this war widens and you get trapped.

I remember watching a Bourdain episode on Lebanon. I'd like to visit one day when its economy recovers and there's peace & calm.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cxx2y4dpr3et

Lebonese are some of the kindest people you will ever meet. My cousin is married to a Lebonese man, and they go back to Lebanon regularly. It is really heartbreaking what the people there have gone through.

[Mota]

I rented a basement apartment from a Lebanese couple. The evening of 9/11, when everybody else was in shock, they began a 2 day celebration. We moved out a few months later.

[RainMaker]

Beirut is one of the coolest cities I've ever been to. It's a bit of a melting pot of religions and people and everyone is extremely friendly. Baalbek ranks up there with Chichenitza as the best historical sites I've even seen. But I'm a Roman history nerd.

[NobodyHere]

Well this was a creative attack angle.

Hezbollah members wounded in Lebanon when pagers explode

[Edward64]

I'm sure they had their reasons, but you'd think it was more valuable for the Israelis to know where they were with location tracking and maybe even listening in. Wonder how they made it happen.

A couple vids

x.com


Edit: I've seen some articles saying hundreds or thousands injured, that's a lot of pagers. Final tally to come ...

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Wonder how they made it happen.

So a while back our government found that cartels in South America were buying lanyards from Amazon. So we got Amazon to sell them lanyards with tracking chips in them. This ended up coming out because once whatever operation was over someone at Amazon found that had all of these lanyards in their warehouse and shipped them out to government agencies. So we had to go through ours checking for a specific type and get rid of them. I don't know a lot of the details because it's not my lane. Our CIO had me checking my area and my team for that specific type of lanyard.

I'm guessing the Israelis got a similar deal with whoever supplies Hezbollah but just a guess.

[Edward64]

@atocep. You seem to know more about these things than regular folks.

There was one time when the government was asking Apple to break the encryption/password on the iPhone but Apple refused. It always seemed weird to me that the government couldn't use a super computer (or something) to hack it. Thoughts on whether the iPhone encryption/password etc. can be hacked?

[albionmoonlight]

I didn't even know that Tesla made pagers

[sovereignstar v2]

Pretty terrifying what humans are capable of

[dubb93]

My first thought on this is:

Could a bad actor, theoretically, explode every cell phone/tablet in the US at once? Wasn't really something I ever worried about until now TBH.

[albionmoonlight]

It feels like if non-altered cell phones/tablets could explode, we'd know about it b/c some small amount would have just malfunctioned and done it.

I'm guessing that Israel got access to the supplier and altered the pagers.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

It feels like if non-altered cell phones/tablets could explode, we'd know about it b/c some small amount would have just malfunctioned and done it.

I'm guessing that Israel got access to the supplier and altered the pagers.

I'll sleep better knowing that our phones aren't manufactured in China. Oh...wait.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I didn't even know that Tesla made pagers

Funny.


I didn't know ANYONE still made pagers.

[GrantDawg]

Islamic Republic of Iran state media says that two of the Ambassador’s bodyguards were carrying pagers which exploded leading them to be injured and of course the Ambassador as well. https://t.co/E1KEUtxJgZ

— Yashar Ali �� (@yashar) September 17, 2024

[Edward64]

CNN is reporting 9 killed, 2,800 wounded and 170 in critical.

That’s a lot of Hezbollah.

[GrantDawg]

NEWS

Sky News Arabia is reporting that the Hezbollah pagers were rigged with PETN (Pentaerythritol Tetranitrate), one of the most explosive materials.

PETN is very sensitive to heat, and the report says that the pager’s battery was used to ignite the PETN.

It doesn’t take much…

— Yashar Ali �� (@yashar) September 17, 2024

[GrantDawg]

Looks like the pagers were the Gold Apollo 900, made in Taiwan. They look like the classic old Motorola pagers we used to have with a regular AAA battery.