Werewolf LVII: Cathedral (GAME OVER!)

[RendeR]

I was just clarifying my post because you were confused.

I'm dead ayway, bastards.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

My choice would be Mr. Wednesday or Schmidty, not sure which.

Heck, I'll lead: UNVOTE RENDER
VOTE MR. WEDNESDAY

Seemed to be subtly trying to discourage us from working on the cathedral earlier...

Absolutely not. In fact, the person I voted for hadn't done any work on the cathedral.

I think in most cases, it's probably better for everyone to cast a vote for someone, but I can understand if someone prefers to do two units of work on the cathedral.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

Here is the post I was referring to...Mr Wednesday. He was explaining his vote and saying the reason he didn't move off DT was b/c it was doubtful his vote would change the outcome, and b/c there was a chance the bg would protect him. Anyone else think this is suspicious or am I grasping at straws here?

The reason I didn't move was because I was way too late and there was no indication of anybody else moving.

The b/g thing was actually an argument in favor of saving him... it's no guarantee that he would be gone the next night.

On the other hand, I do think that Lathum's logic about taking a chance on it being the seer (leaving votes in place), rather than a wolf, is compelling. A false reveal is an obvious thing for a wolf to do, as it either wins trust with the village or draws out the real seer.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

My choice would be Mr. Wednesday or Schmidty, not sure which....

I'm very glad we got the cultist, but what the hell randomness is that? What have I done that's even remotely worthy of suspecting me of anything?

Just curious.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I'm very glad we got the cultist, but what the hell randomness is that? What have I done that's even remotely worthy of suspecting me of anything?

Just curious.

Nothing.

[Barkeep49]

In the morning you find that you are all alive. Except, what is that? The Cathedral has been damaged. The hard work that has been done is now undone. Alas alas alas

Left to do:

Walls - Finished
Roof - 1 unit of work
Windows - Finished
Artwork - 9 units of work
Carpentry - 6 units of work

[Barkeep49]

Also: There's a real good chance that I will be out from 6 PM until after lynch. I go straight from a meeting at school to basketball practice to a scheduling meeting that I could be at until 11 EST or later. So lynch results will be late. If needed people can send in conditional night orders, in case there's an ambiguity about what happened. I'll post this again before I actually head out.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

In the morning you find that you are all alive. Except, what is that? The Cathedral has been damaged. The hard work that has been done is now undone. Alas alas alas

Left to do:

Walls - Finished
Roof - 1 unit of work
Windows - Finished
Artwork - 9 units of work
Carpentry - 9 units of work

Geez -- so they took 7 units from the artwork, and 6 from the carpentry.

[Poli]

[Barkeep49]

I'm loving AE's pictures.

[PurdueBrad]

Back to work,

Work on carpentry

[Lathum]

Work on Roof

that should finish it off

[Lathum]

dola- Eventhough the cathedral was damaged I am glad we are all alive this morning.

[Lathum]

OK, with 13 of us left I think we need to begin a COT,

It seems to me that the Path12- Anxiety connection is a good place to start. If we can get a COT started with them that gives us 11 unknowns. Obviously we all know our roles so really that gives you 10 unkowns. Assuming there are 3-4 demons that gives us a 30-40% chance today.

I also want to throw out that my assault on Render should buy me some trust so if we add me that gives us an even better chance

[Lathum]

another thing I was thinking about.

Why can't we all discuss who we want to vote, but not place an official vote on that person. Then designat 1 person to cast the vote, and another to be a "backup" vote ( operating under the assumption that the candidate will tie it up to save their ass.)

That way the rest of us could dedicate more work to the cathedral?

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Lathum

dola- Eventhough the cathedral was damaged I am glad we are all alive this morning.

I think the demons have to alternate between killing and ruining the cathedral -- so expect a kill tonight, but no damage to the cathedral.

[Barkeep49]

I made a mistake applying damage to the carpentry last night. I corrected it in the original post and first post but here is the current damage report:

Left to do:

Walls - Finished
Roof - 1 unit of work
Windows - Finished
Artwork - 9 units of work
Carpentry - 6 units of work

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I think the demons have to alternate between killing and ruining the cathedral -- so expect a kill tonight, but no damage to the cathedral.

They can do an action two nights in a row but not three.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

They can do an action two nights in a row but not three.

Yeah, my mistake.

[Lathum]

OK, I have an idea I will throw out ( which I am sure will get shredded)

What if we all use both our actions to work on the cathedral and do it with enough time between now and the deadline, say by 8:00 PM EST. That way no one can pull any nonsense ( I think CR may be effected by this).

I can then command oliegirl she must vote for someone, so she would be the onl one casting a vote today, but if we gat enough discussion going I think we can give her a good idea who the majority thinks should go.

Anyone who deveates from the plan will then be looked upon as not acting in our bst interests.

Discuss...


I am now off for a while

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Lathum

OK, I have an idea I will throw out ( which I am sure will get shredded)

What if we all use both our actions to work on the cathedral and do it with enough time between now and the deadline, say by 8:00 PM EST. That way no one can pull any nonsense ( I think CR may be effected by this).

I can then command oliegirl she must vote for someone, so she would be the onl one casting a vote today, but if we gat enough discussion going I think we can give her a good idea who the majority thinks should go.

Anyone who deveates from the plan will then be looked upon as not acting in our bst interests.

Discuss...


I am now off for a while

I feel like I can get behind that idea.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

Alright, since the votes are leaning path, allow me to personally vouch for him. Again, I'd prefer not to say more, but no one puts themself out there just because, and you know it. You have three possibilities. The likelhood that both path and I are bad guys, willing to connect ourselves so strongly on Day One. Unlikely. Both angels again willing to connect ourselves on day One, more likely but not as much so. KNown angels are targets for demons but not lynching, so there is some security in protecting a felllow angel, more so than jumping out and protecting a fellow demon. Still, its a dengerous play for Day One. Or something else entirely, some possibilities of which wer emetnioned earlier.

Which is most likely. Now know it off and lets vote somewhere else. I don;t have any suspicions of Schmidity, but I know I dont have any on path. Where else can we put votes?

Lathum, what was your anti=RendeR case again?

I feel like I'm the only one not mindlessly following along here on this... Everyone else means to tell me that you think with the seer dead, that two good players like Path and Anxiety wouldn't be able to pull out some story to keep each other alive in consecutive days when they were under heat? Without any confirmable way to know if they are telling the truth other than one of their deaths, its a story that could have legs to last quite a while (as evidenced by apparently most people being willing to leave them both alone or extend them trust. The whole "You think I'm dumb enough to be a wolf that outs myself early" line is nonsense in WW where we've had 50+ games and every strategy has been used multiple times. Instead, I think you are smart enough to pull off such a move.

Originally Posted by st.cronin

My choice would be Mr. Wednesday or Schmidty, not sure which.

Heck, I'll lead: UNVOTE RENDER
VOTE MR. WEDNESDAY

Seemed to be subtly trying to discourage us from working on the cathedral earlier...

The other side of my "Axis of evil" so to speak being Cronin and Render once again reared its ugly head last night. It seems that I was pretty correct about Render, and look who once again came to try to protect him by moving a vote off of him last night.

I also still have in my mind the possibility of Chief and Anxiety being on opposite sides (with Cronin once again going after Chief and protecting Anxiety loosely in earlier days). I really think someone needs to die to start tying up all of these loose ends. Whether its Cronin, Anxiety or Path, I'm not sure where I am leaning right now.. but one of them need to die so we have some answers.

Originally Posted by Lathum

OK, with 13 of us left I think we need to begin a COT,

It seems to me that the Path12- Anxiety connection is a good place to start. If we can get a COT started with them that gives us 11 unknowns. Obviously we all know our roles so really that gives you 10 unkowns. Assuming there are 3-4 demons that gives us a 30-40% chance today.

I also want to throw out that my assault on Render should buy me some trust so if we add me that gives us an even better chance

I don't think I agree with this CoT at all for reasons I stated above. Also regarding your assault on Render, I feel pretty good about you so far this game as you've made moves at some of the same people I've been mentioning (ie: Render). One question I have though is in regards to the cultist role. In most games I don't think the wolves know who the cultist is. Technically a wolf could lead a charge to kill the cultist without knowing it. I'm glad we got the cultist, and right now you are near the top of my "feel good about" list though.

Originally Posted by Lathum

another thing I was thinking about.

Why can't we all discuss who we want to vote, but not place an official vote on that person. Then designat 1 person to cast the vote, and another to be a "backup" vote ( operating under the assumption that the candidate will tie it up to save their ass.)

That way the rest of us could dedicate more work to the cathedral?

I don't know how I feel about this considering there are at least 3 different sides (and possibly other independant roles such as the Bishop). I'm not sure who all shares our best interests and who doesn't. If I felt i could be around near the deadline to watch for any foul play, I probably wouldn't mind as much. We've already seen villagers make plays under a time crunch without fully checking to see what had happened before (ie: DT's working on something that was already completed), I just feel something bad happening which then leads us on a wild goose chase to kill another villager due to it.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Lathum

OK, I have an idea I will throw out...

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Lathum

OK, I have an idea I will throw out ( which I am sure will get shredded)

What if we all use both our actions to work on the cathedral and do it with enough time between now and the deadline, say by 8:00 PM EST. That way no one can pull any nonsense ( I think CR may be effected by this).

I can then command oliegirl she must vote for someone, so she would be the onl one casting a vote today, but if we gat enough discussion going I think we can give her a good idea who the majority thinks should go.

Anyone who deveates from the plan will then be looked upon as not acting in our bst interests.

Discuss...


I am now off for a while

It is the third day, and on the third day the Son of our Lord is risen! I am free from the shackles of my vow of silence! It is a glorious day, indeed.

As noble as your intentions are, I cannot do this, good Ser Knight. I have been bound by the Lord our God to lead man to victory true. It is the third day, and now, I cannot be hindered by the menial completion of His altar. An inquisition must occur, Ser Knight!

AND NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

It is the third day, and on the third day the Son of our Lord is risen! I am free from the shackles of my vow of silence! It is a glorious day, indeed.

As noble as your intentions are, I cannot do this, good Ser Knight. I have been bound by the Lord our God to lead man to victory true. It is the third day, and now, I cannot be hindered by the menial completion of His altar. An inquisition must occur, Ser Knight!

AND NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

So you have some victory condition that you don't want the cathedral built? Wouldn't that make you on the demon's side?

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Alan T

So you have some victory condition that you don't want the cathedral built? Wouldn't that make you on the demon's side?

I'm with you. NC's response only makes me want to go through with this plan more. Also, I'd recommend that olie look hard at voting for NC, too.

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by Lathum

OK, I have an idea I will throw out ( which I am sure will get shredded)

What if we all use both our actions to work on the cathedral and do it with enough time between now and the deadline, say by 8:00 PM EST. That way no one can pull any nonsense ( I think CR may be effected by this).

I can then command oliegirl she must vote for someone, so she would be the onl one casting a vote today, but if we gat enough discussion going I think we can give her a good idea who the majority thinks should go.

Anyone who deveates from the plan will then be looked upon as not acting in our bst interests.

Discuss...


I am now off for a while

I am totally behind that idea. But that would mean that I can only do 1 work action today - right?

Also, as for the CoT, I have Path and Anxiety in mine for now, though I wish they'd give us just a little more information on what relationship they have. I also have Lathum in my CoT - his suspicion and action against RendeR as well as him being able to give me orders confirms in my mind that he is a fellow villager.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

I am totally behind that idea. But that would mean that I can only do 1 work action today - right?

Also, as for the CoT, I have Path and Anxiety in mine for now, though I wish they'd give us just a little more information on what relationship they have. I also have Lathum in my CoT - his suspicion and action against RendeR as well as him being able to give me orders confirms in my mind that he is a fellow villager.

I would advise you to vote twice, just in case something screwy happens.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

It is the third day, and on the third day the Son of our Lord is risen! I am free from the shackles of my vow of silence! It is a glorious day, indeed.

As noble as your intentions are, I cannot do this, good Ser Knight. I have been bound by the Lord our God to lead man to victory true. It is the third day, and now, I cannot be hindered by the menial completion of His altar. An inquisition must occur, Ser Knight!

AND NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

The more I read this, the more I think you're just trying to prevent the building of the Cathedral, more than anything else. You say an inquisition must occur -- but in this plan, and inquisition will occur!

Or are you saying that part of your role dictates that you must place a vote?

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I would advise you to vote twice, just in case something screwy happens.

That's what I will plan on doing then...but I'm going to hold off on voting until much later. Hopefully we can get some discussion going...right now NC is looking pretty suspicious to me, along with Schmidty for his vote moving last night. I'm on the fence with Mr. Wednesday, AlanT and Pass....

[PurdueBrad]

Well, with it now down to six, I'll throw my second work action in now on carpentry which means it'll be down to four there plus whoever else pitches in. Softball night so I may not be around. As for the plan of having Olliegirl vote, it makes sense to me as we can hopefully pull off a good day of work on the cathedral.

work carpentry again

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

along with Schmidty for his vote moving last night.

Um, I didn't move a vote at all. Not sure what you're looking at.

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Um, I didn't move a vote at all. Not sure what you're looking at.

Sorry, that should have said Cronin...Cronin moved his vote from RendeR to Mr. Wednesday, which of course now knowing what we know about RendeR could definitely mean something.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

That's what I will plan on doing then...but I'm going to hold off on voting until much later. Hopefully we can get some discussion going...right now NC is looking pretty suspicious to me, along with Schmidty for his vote moving last night. I'm on the fence with Mr. Wednesday, AlanT and Pass....

olie, are you planning to just vote however you feel like it, or vote according to lathum's plan?

[path12]

Quite a lot happened since yesterday, I see. Let me try and address a couple of things.

First, my vote for Schmidty yesterday. I said it was little more than a hunch, and that was true. Schmidty took it as a bit more than that and wanted an explanation. I'm OK with that. It's ironic, but the reason I was wondering about him was due to the fact that he was around much more than normal on day 1. That's it.

Secondly, for Alan -- you need to sometimes just look at things in the simplest way instead of looking for conspiracy everywhere. I vouched for Anxiety day 1. I claim no other knowledge. Anxiety vouched for me yesterday (thanks, Abe!). It does not make sense for either of us to come out this early to protect a fellow demon. Even though we have lost a seer, I don't doubt that there is some other kind of role in this game that has the ability to see what side someone is on........and I'd be very surprised if neither Anxiety or myself would not have been checked by now. Instead of reaching for illogical conclusions that we must be bad, I think it makes more sense (especially in light of Anxiety pointing towards Render) to assume that we have the beginnings of knowing who some of the good guys are. Just because I do not want to specifically spell out my role doesn't mean it shouldn't be pretty damn clear by now.......and again, if I was bad wouldn't it be more prudent for me to just claim some sort of role to stop all the speculation? As far as I'm concerned, your pushing on this makes you look far more suspicious than I am.

I need to reread some stuff to see about our bishop, but agree that his motives might not entirely jive with ours. In the meantime:

WORK ON CARPENTRY

[st.cronin]

My guess is that the demons didn't know that Render was the cultist. Heck, I didn't even know a cultist was in the game.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Lathum

OK, I have an idea I will throw out ( which I am sure will get shredded)

What if we all use both our actions to work on the cathedral and do it with enough time between now and the deadline, say by 8:00 PM EST. That way no one can pull any nonsense ( I think CR may be effected by this).

I can then command oliegirl she must vote for someone, so she would be the onl one casting a vote today, but if we gat enough discussion going I think we can give her a good idea who the majority thinks should go.

Anyone who deveates from the plan will then be looked upon as not acting in our bst interests.

Discuss...


I am now off for a while

I might suggest that we put two or three votes on an agreed candidate. That way we lessen the chances of a late vote by a bad guy to screw things up, and still save enough actions to really get some more stuff done on the cathedral.

[path12]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

My guess is that the demons didn't know that Render was the cultist. Heck, I didn't even know a cultist was in the game.

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

There will also be a cultist who appears to the seer to be a villager, and counts as a villager for ration purposes, but wins with the Demons. He has other abilities.

Doesn't spell out whether or not he might have been known by the demons, but as has been pointed out, that role usually isn't.

[Abe Sargent]

I like Lathum's plan at first. Then I realize that we will never get people to agree to the actual lynching later on. Still, I'll go ahead and vote on a work place now, then leave my second action available, to see how well the plan works out.

VOTE ARTWORK

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

Alright, since the votes are leaning path, allow me to personally vouch for him. Again, I'd prefer not to say more, but no one puts themself out there just because, and you know it. You have three possibilities. The likelhood that both path and I are bad guys, willing to connect ourselves so strongly on Day One. Unlikely. Both angels again willing to connect ourselves on day One, more likely but not as much so. KNown angels are targets for demons but not lynching, so there is some security in protecting a felllow angel, more so than jumping out and protecting a fellow demon. Still, its a dengerous play for Day One. Or something else entirely, some possibilities of which wer emetnioned earlier.

Which is most likely. Now know it off and lets vote somewhere else. I don;t have any suspicions of Schmidity, but I know I dont have any on path. Where else can we put votes?

Lathum, what was your anti=RendeR case again?

Just re-reading this post. Could it be that one of them is Lucifer and the other of them is Gabriel?

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

olie, are you planning to just vote however you feel like it, or vote according to lathum's plan?

I'm going to vote according to Lathums plan...I only threw those names out as a start for some discussion and hopefully an agreement on who should be lynched tonight.

[st.cronin]

Alan, I don't suppose you're ready to explain your hunch yet.

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Just re-reading this post. Could it be that one of them is Lucifer and the other of them is Gabriel?

I actually had this though yesterday, but after re-reading the rules, I don't see where it benefits either of them to keep the other alive. It still boils down to one of them being an angel and one being a demon, which means they each need the other to die to ensure victory...I haven't totally ruled out the possibility but am not putting any faith in it either.

[Neon_Chaos]

Oh ye of little faith.

I am no angel, nor am I a demon. I am mortal, I bleed the same blood that His Son did when He was nailed to the cross.

Work on the cathedral if you must, I am not against this. I have no qualm about this. I own a burden to bear, and you know not how heavy this burden is.

Know this, however: The Page and the Knight are not in my circle of trust. They have revealed no such thing to tell me so. All they have shown is that their superficial mortal bodies have certain abilities. Are we to have our fates dictated by those whose true forms we do not know?

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

I actually had this though yesterday, but after re-reading the rules, I don't see where it benefits either of them to keep the other alive. It still boils down to one of them being an angel and one being a demon, which means they each need the other to die to ensure victory...I haven't totally ruled out the possibility but am not putting any faith in it either.

Ahhh... this is where you are wrong, Page.

The Angels win true by merely completing the Cathedral. The Demons win true by stopping this and vanquishing the Angels.

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Ahhh... this is where you are wrong, Page.

The Angels win true by merely completing the Cathedral. The Demons win true by stopping this and vanquishing the Angels.

OK...but even so, how would it benefit Gabriel to keep Lucifer safe? And obviously, Lucifer would want Gabriel dead...so still, why would they be protecting each other? It doesn't make any sense at this point, at least not to me...maybe I'm just an idiot.

[st.cronin]

Neon, whats the story with you and the Friar? Saldana can explain as well, if he wants. What I'm curious about is why he seems willing to work for you, without full understanding of your motivations.

Also, Neon: I (mostly) trust the Knight. I can't speak for the Page, though.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Neon, whats the story with you and the Friar? Saldana can explain as well, if he wants. What I'm curious about is why he seems willing to work for you, without full understanding of your motivations.

Also, Neon: I (mostly) trust the Knight. I can't speak for the Page, though.

I have no bearing of another's own motives. I do not know his. Perhaps he has seen the light? The Lord works in myserious ways.

I know that the heavenly choir hears my prayers, and understands why I must bear this burden from the Lord.

Know this, the Friar and I are not in collusion.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

OK...but even so, how would it benefit Gabriel to keep Lucifer safe? And obviously, Lucifer would want Gabriel dead...so still, why would they be protecting each other? It doesn't make any sense at this point, at least not to me...maybe I'm just an idiot.

Your analysis holds true, Page. I was merely pointing out the correct conditions of true victory.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Lathum

OK, with 13 of us left I think we need to begin a COT,

It seems to me that the Path12- Anxiety connection is a good place to start. If we can get a COT started with them that gives us 11 unknowns. Obviously we all know our roles so really that gives you 10 unkowns. Assuming there are 3-4 demons that gives us a 30-40% chance today.

I also want to throw out that my assault on Render should buy me some trust so if we add me that gives us an even better chance

sorry, but your "assault" means nothing to me...if you were a demon, you wouldnt know who the cultist is, and the manner in which you seized upon the opportunity to get render lynched is exactly what you would do if you were a demon.

i am not saying that you are, but the fact that you are trying to play off the fact that we got the cultist last night actually makes me suspect you more.

Originally Posted by Lathum

another thing I was thinking about.

Why can't we all discuss who we want to vote, but not place an official vote on that person. Then designat 1 person to cast the vote, and another to be a "backup" vote ( operating under the assumption that the candidate will tie it up to save their ass.)

That way the rest of us could dedicate more work to the cathedral?

I said this 2 days ago.

Originally Posted by Alan T

I feel like I'm the only one not mindlessly following along here on this... Everyone else means to tell me that you think with the seer dead, that two good players like Path and Anxiety wouldn't be able to pull out some story to keep each other alive in consecutive days when they were under heat? Without any confirmable way to know if they are telling the truth other than one of their deaths, its a story that could have legs to last quite a while (as evidenced by apparently most people being willing to leave them both alone or extend them trust. The whole "You think I'm dumb enough to be a wolf that outs myself early" line is nonsense in WW where we've had 50+ games and every strategy has been used multiple times. Instead, I think you are smart enough to pull off such a move.

the only problem with this logic Alan, is that path vouched for anxiety well before the seer died, or even made his reveal, so i am very inclined to start my COT with them, as they put themselves out in the open when there WAS still a chance of being scanned.

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Neon, whats the story with you and the Friar? Saldana can explain as well, if he wants. What I'm curious about is why he seems willing to work for you, without full understanding of your motivations.

Also, Neon: I (mostly) trust the Knight. I can't speak for the Page, though.

my williingness to follow his grace yesterday was related to something i thought i saw in his play from the day before, but apparently was simply coincidence. I had thought that the Bishop was able to make some sort of seer-like determination during the course of the day, because he was very sure of himself in defending Torgo.

Barkeep has, in the past, used an Empath type role, where a player can choose a post during the day to determine the truthfullness of it, and I thought N_C had done something of this nature with Torgo.

I was waiting for his vote on the thought that he would do the same thing again.