The Official 2016-17 NBA Regular Season Thread

[wustin]

Kyrie and Love didn't play together, they had awful teammates, and Kyrie wasn't even 21 years old yet (also had injury problems). This set of roster is the deepest Lebron has ever had. I'm not saying they would get 50 wins but they would still be a playoff team.

[CrescentMoonie]

Neither plays defense. How many teams make the playoffs when their top two players don't even make an honest effort on defense?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by wustin

The team is built around Lebron and his strengths. You're assuming Kyrie and Love can't adapt throughout an entire season. They're both top 10 players at their positions.
...
Kyrie and Love didn't play together, they had awful teammates, and Kyrie wasn't even 21 years old yet (also had injury problems). This set of roster is the deepest Lebron has ever had. I'm not saying they would get 50 wins but they would still be a playoff team.

They lost to the Pacers & Pistons by double digits in the only games Love & Kyrie played this year without LeBron. They might adapt over an entire season, but the people assuming they would just because are the ones taking a leap of faith. We've seen plenty of evidence "top 10 players at their position" who don't play defense like Carmelo Anthony, Demarcus Cousins, Andre Drummond, Kemba Walker, Brook Lopez and Kyrie/Love themselves before they united with LeBron, can't just lift their teams to the playoffs. And it's not like they'd be able to sign multiple good players to replace LBJ in this hypothetical - even without LeBron they're over the salary cap.

[CrescentMoonie]

While the Warriors, Cavs, etc find new and exciting ways to give the league's TV partners the finger, this Wizards-Celtics rivalry is getting more and more fun every time. The league would be wise to schedule these two for a prime time network game.

Already we have Brandon Jennings getting called for a defensive foul on a play where Terry Rozier throws a two-handed thrust to the chest/neck of Jennings.

[BishopMVP]

Jennings got called for a defensive foul because he chest bumped Rozier twice after the made basket, then stopped in front of him for no reason away from the ball on the way up the court. Rozier got called for a technical for the shove. Not really sure why Jennings got a T too, other than officials in all sports trying to even everything out these days, but I think we can agree the most ridiculous part of that situation was the amount of time the officials took to discuss it. No need for a 10 minute tea party.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Jennings got called for a defensive foul because he chest bumped Rozier twice after the made basket, then stopped in front of him for no reason away from the ball on the way up the court. Rozier got called for a technical for the shove. Not really sure why Jennings got a T too, other than officials in all sports trying to even everything out these days, but I think we can agree the most ridiculous part of that situation was the amount of time the officials took to discuss it. No need for a 10 minute tea party.

They didn't whistle the chest bumps, so that's BS. I'm pretty sure they consulted NASA to make the call though.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

They didn't whistle the chest bumps, so that's BS. I'm pretty sure they consulted NASA to make the call though.

The refs retroactively look at stuff all the time in the NBA once they start considering technicals or flagrants and it's pretty clear that's exactly what they did there. When they showed the refs back at the monitors the 3rd time they had the Celtics inbounding the ball on the screen. I don't know why Jennings got a T too unless he said something, but a blocking foul on Jennings and a T on Rozier seemed like the right compromise to me (and it also seemed obvious after the first replay, let alone the 30th).

Oh well, status quo holds. Both Celtics and Wizards win convincingly vs each other at their home court, and Celtics look likely to hold on to the 2 seed. Should be a fun matchup if both hold serve in round 1. PS man I love that Marcus Smart rip strip move - I can't even think of more than a handful or two of NBA players I've seen even attempt it instead of just slapping at the ball, but he's good for one of those every other game.

[JonInMiddleGA]

This whole "resting players" deal (current sitting in a front page position on espn.com, so I'm not just bringing this up randomly).

No, I don't much care for the league poking its nose into a team & telling them which players to play when simply for the sake of their TV deal.

That said however ...

NBA & ABA Year-by-Year Top 10 Leaders and Records for Minutes Played | Basketball-Reference.com

While the expanded league might add some travel wear & tear concerns, the gap between what today's most played players do and what players did for several decades is sizable. Were guys like Cuttino Mobley or Michael Finley in THAT much better condition than some of today's players?

edit to add: as for length of season, last year started on 10/28 for Harden (the minutes played leader) and ended regular season on 4/13. Finley's 99-00 season started on 11/2 and ended on 4/19, virtually identical days from start to finish. So some player comments about how "it's not the minutes per game, it's the number of games" ring more than a little hollow to me.

[BishopMVP]

I think the majority of it is just teams catering to star players and players of any era complained about travel & a long season, but I do think there is some merit to an approach like Popovich's prolonging the careers of Duncan/Ginobili/Parker, and more money being put into the sports science questions of how peak performance can be attained. (To an extent that frankly seems ridiculous at times - from a recent Zach Lowe article "(Luc Richard) Mbah a Moute credits his strong play to a new sleep regimen. He vowed in the offseason to sleep at least 12 hours a night, and he has mostly kept it up amid crazy NBA travel, even if he has to hit the sack right as teammates hit the town. "Twelve is nice, but I want more," he said. "I can sleep 14 or 15 hours now. If we don't have practice, I can sleep all day."

Mbah a Moute became obsessed with sleep during his one season in Philly, where the team's sports science staff inundated players with data about their bodies. "I wish I knew about all this when I was younger," Mbah a Moute said. "I've seen the difference it can make.")

Now, considering that was a Sam Hinkie team that won 18 games, I'd say we can conclusively say that all the sports science in the world pales in comparison to talent differences, but there is some truth in there, and it probably doesn't make sense for an elite athlete to play 3 games in 3 different time zones in 4 nights. As long as the % chance of star players sitting out is small enough that it doesn't prevent sellouts the owners can have their 41 home game cake & eat it too.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

prolonging the careers

That's why I did engage in at least some cherry picking by using Finley as an example. He played 16 seasons, 10 of them at an above average level & with exceptionally high minutes for the era.

Was he some sort of physical anomaly with superhero like stamina?
Or are today's players too often, bluntly, pampered pussies?

[Logan]

I always include a caveat that I'm not a big NBA guy so if I'm being shortsighted or uninformed by saying the following, feel free to correct me. But I was checking out the box score of the Minny-NO game the other day and it seems like the whole "tank for the opportunity to draft a superstar #1" doesn't even come close to working. There's no way to do it besides either doing it for many years and having a high hit rate both in the lottery and with the actual selection, or maybe the perfect storm of the Robinson/Duncan Spurs.

Towns and Davis have to be the two most optimal draft lottery wins since LeBron, no? And their teams are a combined 57-82 right now. Can anyone see a legitimate path to a title for those two outside of being joined by like two fellow studs in free agency?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Logan

I always include a caveat that I'm not a big NBA guy so if I'm being shortsighted or uninformed by saying the following, feel free to correct me. But I was checking out the box score of the Minny-NO game the other day and it seems like the whole "tank for the opportunity to draft a superstar #1" doesn't even come close to working. There's no way to do it besides either doing it for many years and having a high hit rate both in the lottery and with the actual selection, or maybe the perfect storm of the Robinson/Duncan Spurs.

Towns and Davis have to be the two most optimal draft lottery wins since LeBron, no? And their teams are a combined 57-82 right now. Can anyone see a legitimate path to a title for those two outside of being joined by like two fellow studs in free agency?

The best thing the wolves could do IMO is shop Wiggins around and see what offers they get. I'm guessing his trade value is much higher than his actual value right now. They need more guys that defend a little and more efficient scoring than Wiggins brings.

[miami_fan]

Jerry Krause, architect of Chicago Bulls dynasty, dies

RIP

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Oh well, status quo holds. Both Celtics and Wizards win convincingly vs each other at their home court, and Celtics look likely to hold on to the 2 seed. Should be a fun matchup if both hold serve in round 1. PS man I love that Marcus Smart rip strip move - I can't even think of more than a handful or two of NBA players I've seen even attempt it instead of just slapping at the ball, but he's good for one of those every other game.

I'm actually starting to feel better about having the 3 instead of the 2 since it looks like Miami could sneak all the way up to the 7 seed. I don't know what's going on with that team, seriously how do you start 11-30 and then go 23-6, but I want no part of them in the playoffs.

[Brian Swartz]

Honestly I think Minnesota is just young. I think they're a solid playoff team at least in a couple of years ... I wouldn't be too much in a hurry to need to make major moves.

[rjolley]

Originally Posted by Atocep

The best thing the wolves could do IMO is shop Wiggins around and see what offers they get. I'm guessing his trade value is much higher than his actual value right now. They need more guys that defend a little and more efficient scoring than Wiggins brings.

If the Wolves came to you as GM of the Bulls offering Wiggins and Dunn for Butler, do you take it?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by rjolley

If the Wolves came to you as GM of the Bulls offering Wiggins and Dunn for Butler, do you take it?

No chance

The only area Wiggins shown obvious improvement in since entering the league is his usage rate. He still has abysmal rebound and assist rates, a below average TS%, doesn't defend, hasn't cracked the top 30 at his position in RPM, and is 15th among small forwards in EWA. And he's going to be getting real expensive soon.

Dunn is older than Wiggins and awful.

I don't think you can win many games with LaVine/Wiggins eating up so many minutes. One of them needs to go and Wiggins probably brings a better return. Butler would be a great player for them to land, but I'd laugh at a Wiggins/Dunn offer.

[rjolley]

Originally Posted by Atocep

No chance

The only area Wiggins shown obvious improvement in since entering the league is his usage rate. He still has abysmal rebound and assist rates, a below average TS%, doesn't defend, hasn't cracked the top 30 at his position in RPM, and is 15th among small forwards in EWA. And he's going to be getting real expensive soon.

Dunn is older than Wiggins and awful.

I don't think you can win many games with LaVine/Wiggins eating up so many minutes. One of them needs to go and Wiggins probably brings a better return. Butler would be a great player for them to land, but I'd laugh at a Wiggins/Dunn offer.

Good points. I would take a chance on it if the Wolves threw in their #1 this year, especially if I'm sold on keeping Hoiberg and don't feel Butler can lead us to postseason success. Wiggins would fit in Hoiberg's system better than he does in Thibs'. Dunn is better than any PG the Bulls have right now, so you can take a chance on him to grow. If they get the #1, that's 2 good #1 picks in a strong draft.

If it doesn't work, I, as GarPax, am probably going out the door along with Hoiberg next year anyway, so why not roll the dice and see.

[miami_fan]

So three games for Robin Lopez and two for Serge Ibaka?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

That's why I did engage in at least some cherry picking by using Finley as an example. He played 16 seasons, 10 of them at an above average level & with exceptionally high minutes for the era.

Was he some sort of physical anomaly with superhero like stamina?
Or are today's players too often, bluntly, pampered pussies?

Yeah, I was gonna cherry pick it by saying "Hey, Cuttino Mobley was out of the league at 31", but it turns out that was because testing revealed a congenital heart disease. There are also anomalies in any era (Kareem, LeBron, Satchel Paige) - a guy like Vince Carter is now playing decently at 40, and no one considered him durable or exceptionally tough in his 20's.

I think much of it is unnecessary pampering, but I also don't​ think it hurts the best teams that much, so there's little downside. I also do think there's an argument just like with baseball pitchers that the effort required at all times has been raised & there's not as much opportunity to coast anymore - look at the defense from past eras & it's more physical at the point of attack but laughably bad offball.

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Honestly I think Minnesota is just young. I think they're a solid playoff team at least in a couple of years ... I wouldn't be too much in a hurry to need to make major moves.

I don't think Zach LaVine, ball dominant guard, will ever work out, so I'd move on from him. They're 12-10 without him, 16-31 with him, and that's not a surprise. Wiggins motor staying so low has been a disappointment, but he's still a competent NBA starter. I feel like I was alone at times on the island arguing Kris Dunn wasn't that good, and that looks like a missed draft pick, but he's at least a backup PG that can defend decently. But age is a huge factor, and I think Towns in particular has shown great strides.

New Orleans is a different story. Injuries hurt, but they basically didn't have competent NBA wings & guards for much of the last couple seasons, which is an indictment of the front office. Now they've made the fascinating move for Boogie, so who knows what'll happen next year. But in NO's case I don't think the argument is "tanking failed" it's "the front office is incompetent".

[Young Drachma]

Devin Booker puts up 70 in a Suns loss to the Celtics. But man. He has to be on the list of most unheralded guys to do that. What a night.

[CrescentMoonie]

Best team in the East just beat the refs and the Bron Brons.

[Brian Swartz]

They should be applauded for limiting themselves so much. Amazing how the 'best team in the East' manages to be #3 in offense and #9 on defense in said conference. Imagine what their record would be if they weren't sandbagging all the time.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Imagine what their record would be if they weren't sandbagging all the time.

It's all some sort of clever ruse I'm sure.

[wustin]

didn't know cleveland sandbagging and assembling a deep roster involved lebron playing 80 minutes the last two days.

[Brian Swartz]

It appears to have been lost in translation or something, so just to clarify; I was talking about Washington, not Cleveland. Hence the quotation marks.

[wustin]

I read it out of context, my bad

also...Boston and Cleveland are tied for the 1 seed now. It would've really helped Boston if they made some move to bring in a decent role player to the bench. Raptors brought in PJ Tucker and he's been better than Carroll.

[Brian Swartz]

Then there's the Pistons, who have all the appearances of a team that's thrown in the towel after falling from 7th to 10th in the East in short order. Every year it seems somebody regresses for them. Makes me glad I'm at least as much of a Spurs fan; don't see them coming out of the West but they definitely should be good enough to make some noise.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I will say that this story does make my previous wondering about the role(s) of the other siblings seem not at all misplaced.

Los Angeles Lakers Jeanie Buss thwarts coup attempy of brothers Johnny Buss, Jim Buss

Jeanie Buss of Los Angeles Lakers replaces brother with sister as trustee

[JonInMiddleGA]

The court agreed that the three trustees are obligated to do everything in their power to ensure Jeanie Buss remains both the Lakers controlling owner and head of the Lakers board of directors for life.

I'm not sure exactly how this was drawn up but, umm ... so basically the "trustees" are merely there to rubberstamp whatever she does?

Screw the best interest of the franchise, screw the best interest of the trust's assets, screw everything except making sure she keeps her title / control?

Not sure I see the point in the trust having a board at that point.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm not sure exactly how this was drawn up but, umm ... so basically the "trustees" are merely there to rubberstamp whatever she does?

Screw the best interest of the franchise, screw the best interest of the trust's assets, screw everything except making sure she keeps her title / control?

Not sure I see the point in the trust having a board at that point.

Based on what I read, this was the most politically correct way of telling everyone (especially her brothers) that he only trusted Jeanie to take his place as the head of the franchise.I am guessing the trustees were "appointed" so as not to hurt anyone's (Johnny and Jim's) feelings. Here is a link to a FAQ from when the brothers tried to take control.

FAQ on Lakers and Buss family drama

To specifically answer your question, the court's ruling appears to be almost word for word from what Dr Buss wanted.

In 2006, Dr. Buss put the Lakers ownership in a trust. In plain English above his signature it says that when he dies: "the Trustees shall take whatever actions are reasonably available to them to have Jeanie M. Buss appointed as the Controlling Owner of the Los Angeles Lakers, Inc." Jeanie, Johnny and Jim were made co-trustees, and each of them signed the trust in 2006, meaning they knew Dr. Buss had chosen Jeanie to succeed him seven years before his death.

Not sure what the brothers were trying to do if the above is accurate.

[wustin]

who's worse on defense, Kyrie or Isaiah Thomas? Kyrie has looked like Steve Nash on defense tonight

[Groundhog]

If Kyrie doesn't score 20 or more, he's a negative on the court. If he's shooing sub-40%, you might as well throw Kay Felder out there for 20+ minutes.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Not sure what the brothers were trying to do if the above is accurate.

from that wording, wasn't the basis for a question basically whether "appointed as" meant "for life" or "in perpetuity"?

[CrescentMoonie]

In all seriousness, are the Cavs still the runaway favorite to win the East? I honestly feel like Boston, Washington, and Toronto have the pieces to beat them in a series if Kyrie and Love continue to not even attempt to play defense.

Cleveland should still be the favorite but it's not the slam dunk it looked like to start the year.

[Groundhog]

If they don't have homecourt through the playoffs it might be interesting. LeBron has another gear he can and probably will run in come post-season, but I wonder if Kyrie and Love are as motivated after last year.

[Brian Swartz]

At this point I think Cleveland can turn it around, but I don't see much evidence that they will. LeBron is having a good year even by his ridiculously high standards, but they are really bad when he's not out there. I don't understand it with the talent they have. I still would have them as the favorite in the playoffs but I would agree that the door is definitely open more than expected for others.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

from that wording, wasn't the basis for a question basically whether "appointed as" meant "for life" or "in perpetuity"?

Based on what I have read and heard, it is much closer to a lifetime appointment a la Dr. Buss.

The way it looks from the outside, it was Dr. Buss' wish for Jeanie to replace him as THE owner of the Lakers. Whatever power Dr. Buss had would be transferred to Jeanie. The other kids would have jobs in and around the Lakers organization and draw an ownership check from the organization but that is where their ownership stakes would end.

I would for someone to do some reporting from Jim Buss's point of view. All the reporting so far has been from Jeanie's side and has made Jim look like a complete douche.

[CrescentMoonie]

Westbrook with one of those silly games last night. OKC scores the last 14 to win by 1 and he has 12 of them while getting his 37th triple double of the year. That's 7 in the last 9 games and he only needs 4 in the remaining 9 games to tie Oscar Robertson for the single season record. 5 feels like a foregone conclusion at this point and OKC finishing as high as the 5 seed after trading Ibaka and losing Durant is a real possibility.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Based on what I have read and heard, it is much closer to a lifetime appointment a la Dr. Buss.

The way it looks from the outside, it was Dr. Buss' wish for Jeanie to replace him as THE owner of the Lakers. Whatever power Dr. Buss had would be transferred to Jeanie. The other kids would have jobs in and around the Lakers organization and draw an ownership check from the organization but that is where their ownership stakes would end.

I would for someone to do some reporting from Jim Buss's point of view. All the reporting so far has been from Jeanie's side and has made Jim look like a complete douche.

The whole thing appears to me to have been oddly structured by Jerry, some sort of weird illusion of autonomy / fairness / something when he really knew what he wanted to do but didn't quite have the heart/stomach to do it.

I don't know about the impressions though. I've always thought Jeanie came off a bit unlikable, couldn't have told you Jim's first name on a dare previously. In the end the heroes/villains of this soap opera will probably be determined by how the next few years play out. If the changes are successful then she'll be hailed, if they fizzle then she's going to be the villain.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The whole thing appears to me to have been oddly structured by Jerry, some sort of weird illusion of autonomy / fairness / something when he really knew what he wanted to do but didn't quite have the heart/stomach to do it.

I think this characterization of the whole thing is spot on.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The whole thing appears to me to have been oddly structured by Jerry, some sort of weird illusion of autonomy / fairness / something when he really knew what he wanted to do but didn't quite have the heart/stomach to do it.

I don't know about the impressions though. I've always thought Jeanie came off a bit unlikable, couldn't have told you Jim's first name on a dare previously. In the end the heroes/villains of this soap opera will probably be determined by how the next few years play out. If the changes are successful then she'll be hailed, if they fizzle then she's going to be the villain.

Ehh, I agree the perception of Jeanie will hinge on the teams success in the next decade, but I don't think Jim Buss is ever going to be hailed. Guy's an incompetent buffoon.

Btw, just for posterity's sake, yes, the Celtics are in 1st place! ... and get Cleveland at home next Wednesday with a chance to even the season series. Not sure what the next tiebreaker is, probably conference record.

[CrescentMoonie]

I fully expect the Wizards to finish in 4th with the way the schedule is down the stretch. If they go 2-2 on this west coast trip, then 3rd is still possible, but 7 of the last 9 on the road is brutal regardless of the opponents. Also, while I didn't expect Washington to improve this much this season, I do still have a bet I made before the season started with Toronto at +1200 to win the East. I probably won't win that one, but it's fun to see it seem like it's at least plausible.

I just looked at the current odds on 538 and they've got the Cavs with the 4th best chance in the East to win it all.

[CrescentMoonie]

The Wizards woke up in the 4th quarter against the Lakers and won their first division title in 37 years, the longest streak without a division title in NBA history.

[jbergey22]

Westbrook at it again. After a game winning shot to lead his team down 10+ on Monday night he ties the game with a 3 to send the game to OT after being down 15+ tonight.

Currently up 112-106. Westbrook 55, 11, and 11.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Westbrook at it again. After a game winning shot to lead his team down 10+ on Monday night he ties the game with a 3 to send the game to OT after being down 15+ tonight.

Currently up 112-106. Westbrook 55, 11, and 11.

57/13/11 at the end. That´s just insane. As a sidenote: Jerami Grant managed to be +30 in 19 minutes despite not scoring a single point.

It´s definitely been a season of eye-catching stories and performances. For example it seems like no one is even talking that much about him anymore, but the Greek Freak is averaging 23 ppg on really good efficiency and might just lead the "actually still not that good" Bucks to a pretty respectable 45+ wins. (also contributing 8.6 boards, 5.3 assists and 3.6 combined steals/blocks.

Other random musings:

Rudy Gobert is quietely developing into a more than capable offensive center alongside his defensive ability.

Rubio sure loves playing the Lakers, this time 33/10. Post All Star (17 games): 16.8 ppg on 46% shooting, 44% from 3 and getting to the line nearly 5 times, hitting 91%. Add in 10.6 APG.
Wolves "only" need a competent swingman able to play without the ball and shoot, move Lavine to the bench and improve their bench (getting a real starting PF and moving Dieng to the bench would help).

[wustin]

somehow centers always get injured playing for Portland.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by whomario

For example it seems like no one is even talking that much about him anymore, but the Greek Freak is averaging 23 ppg on really good efficiency and might just lead the "actually still not that good" Bucks to a pretty respectable 45+ wins. (also contributing 8.6 boards, 5.3 assists and 3.6 combined steals/blocks.

It does seem like a lot of people have gotten 'used' to him. I still really enjoy watching him but Milwaukee is not exactly a huge market, and they've been neither terrible nor great. I bet things change a lot for him if they manage to win a playoff series, but until then ... stuff like Westbrook/Harden are doing will push him out of the spotlight.

[CrescentMoonie]

Utah's defense is just fascinating to watch in the modern game.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Utah's defense is just fascinating to watch in the modern game.

Many would say the Spurs and Warriors play as good if not better defense.