Maximum Football???

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by sabotai

And it isn't just simple bug fixes. Even with Marauders and others putting their best spin on it, it sounds like there are fundamental things in MaxFB that are broken and it sounds like Marauders, from his own account, has to try and twist Daivd's are just to get him to think about fixing them.

That is really a separate problem. If David has to be pushed that hard to get real bugs fixed, customers should have major trust issues. My point was that eliminating the obvious and quick bugs would tone down the hostility around here a bunch. It might at least get people to look deeper and then talk about the deeper issues (which might require playing to discover). When the game doesn't perform math properly (and inflatable helmets take precedence over fixing the math) people have plenty of easy targets for ridicule.

But we also put up with this, and other statiscial and game play absurdities, for many years because FOF has always been an otherwise solid game. If MaxFB mostly worked, and only had a few quirks, some bugs and even a few absurdities (like other popular games on this board, Football Pro and NFL2k5 being two), it would have a decent following on this board. But since it's been an ongoing train wreck since long before it was even released, it's open season.

It has been an ongoing train wreck, and problems that are visible from screen shots will continue the train wreck. My point about FOF was to show how important details are around here. If you can't fix the obvious bugs, you will never get any time around here.

There is much more that needs to be done to get people to say good things about the game, but eliminating the easy targets would at least get people to stop saying bad things.

[Neon_Chaos]

I've met Passacaglia in person, Marauders.

He will eat your children.

Alive.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

I've met Passacaglia in person, Marauders.

He will eat your children.

Alive.

Word.

And if you've seen the group picture, I'm *not* the one with the big smiling face.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Oh God he's back.

HOLY SHIT this deserves a song parody.

C'mon Ant, I'm dyin' over here.....

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Marauders

I am fair and honest about what the game will do and what it will not do, and as a moderator I ask each community member to post any constructive criticisms he or she may have with the game.

In complete honesty and with no joking intent, I think that the game should have a demo.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

HOLY SHIT this deserves a song parody.

C'mon Ant, I'm dyin' over here.....

We'll see what happens this weekend sir.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

in all seriousness those graphics are not bad at all. i kinda like them, the colors and all. that's really impressive for a one man effort.

The graphics are fine for what they do. Even David admits they need to be updated, but other areas have priority. The graphics will never be on par with Madden, but they are on the update list.

i really think david should eliminate the maximum customization and make it so that you can still edit a lot, but not enough to compromise the game engine. i think we'll all agree if this was just going to be a straight forward football game it could have some hope of simming decent, solid stats. it just may not be strong enough to handle some extreme things that humans can think of.

The game was designed to be customized. It was not originally designed to have 95% of the NFL, NCAA, CFL, and arena rulesets set up for each play type. Each play style handles some stats, penalties, and other rules differently, and Maximum Football was not originally planned to handle more than the differences that could be changes by the selection menus.

I must be clear here that Maximum Football was not originally planned as an NFL or CFL simulator. Most of the rules in football are the same across the board. Other aspects could be selected via the menus, so this wasn't a problem, but input from both the beta team members and the community indicated that game owners wanted more detail in the rulesets to follow the various types of play. This has added a lot of work for David and the beta team, as these type of changes often can add follow on bugs that have to be hunted and squashed.

As I have stated before, many bugs one sees on the board are not bugs that have always been around. They are often follow on bugs that are created when code is changed for one rule or one statistic. The code isn't as tight as it was before David made these changes that the game players have asked for, so these things happen. That is one of the reasons David wants to get any changes to 2.x completed and tested, so he may better clean up the code for Maximum Football 3.x (or whatever it will be called).

part of how, shit, maybe the whole reason, FOF generates great stats is the developer eliminates your ability to edit the league. you can't really change much, but you give up that right in exchange for what is the strongest sim engine by a one man effort ever,

I agree.

Limits on the ability to edit rules and league is a huge advantage. Having the engine use the target statistics as a base for the sim is also a huge advantage. With FOF, it is sort of like making a puzzle to form a picture. The picture was already there, so it should end up looking like it when completed, but getting there isn't always the same. Maximum Football has a greater ability to change the picture.

and this is not a fanboy speaking cuz i've given the developer a lot of negative posts when i saw fit. i'm a longtime customer so i've earned that right.

I agree.

That is why I sometimes wonder what the hosility is on this thread. There is little time or money invested in Maximum Football by many of the posters here who would mock the game, trash the developer, and insult the people who have invested time and money on the game.

The reason that there have been so many changes to Maximum Football over the last year is because that is what the community wanted and asked for. When reading the last two pages of this thread, I have noted that there is a misperception that David just keeps adding items for his personal enjoyment, while that is not the case; he adds items to the game because game owners asked him to.

There is always a conflict between tweaking features and locking down. There will always be people who say "keep it as is," and those who say "I would like more stats," or "I want to have this rule defined into the game types," or whatever. In my opinion, the way the game was originally released could have done fine enough if cleaned up for bugs at that time, but it would not be anywhere as good as the game is now in terms of having the power to edit gameplans, plays, and rulesets that better reflect the differences in the real world.

Of course, by moving to make those updates and changes, it allowed the naysayers to state that the game is in constant development, or beta, or has a million bugs. The game has developed, that is certain, but is by the will of the community rather than by the inability of the developer. The advantage of doing this is that it pushed the game forward relatively quickly when compared to taking more incremental steps.

As is stands now, all changes to Version 2.x are complete with the version I have on my computer at this time. A few small changes that were considered critical by league players were added and a few more statistics were added by request. These are being tested for issues. This is the end of the line for changes to 2.x, as David wanted months ago.

so maybe suggest to david to take it down a notch, maybe limit the customizationatory aspect of the game to uniforms, stadiums and logos and playbooks, but the rest he should restrict. basically keep the eyecandy editabilityness intact, but get rid of my ability to create a league where i can field a team of retired pirates vs. 20 stampeding Templar Knights.

There are some players that state that, but a majority of game owners ask for more features to be added. Even in this thead, there are people asking for more GM and commissioner features. David would like to add those features, but it will not be until the 3.x series that he could even consider them while considering the changes in the base code that will need to be made as well.

One must keep in mind how Front Page Sports Football progressed over the years to FBPro. If there had not been support for the early titles, the game would have gone away, as it did when it lacked support later on. In my opinion, and in the opinions of many other community members, Maximum Football needs support at this stage to viable at a later stage.

We want the game to play a solid game of football, track stats accurately, and be user friendly, just like what the people here are asking for, but we understand that to get there takes a little time and effort by both David and the community. There are people for whom this is unacceptable, and that opinion is fair enough, but one must respect that others are willing to risk a little time and money to see this project through.

[rkmsuf]

this is like deja suck

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Marauders

We want the game to play a solid game of football, track stats accurately, and be user friendly, just like what the people here are asking for, but we understand that to get there takes a little time and effort by both David and the community. There are people for whom this is unacceptable, and that opinion is fair enough, but one must respect that others are willing to risk a little time and money to see this project through.

Speaking of ad campaigns...."Maximum Football! It doesn't play a solid game of football, doesn't track stats accurately and isn't user friendly...but for only $39.95, it might someday."

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Marauders

One must keep in mind how Front Page Sports Football progressed over the years to FBPro. If there had not been support for the early titles, the game would have gone away, as it did when it lacked support later on. In my opinion, and in the opinions of many other community members, Maximum Football needs support at this stage to viable at a later stage.

Comparing Maximum Football to the first version of FPSF is absolutely ridiculous and disingenuous. God almighty, give MF another 6-7 years and *maybe* it will approach FPS Football v1.0, but I doubt it.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

People here want stats that are within the realm of possibility, and would *like* better graphics

As I stated above, no one else has been more critical of inflated statistics than I have. When the original game vid came out prior to release, I was adamant about making sure that the statistics could resemble NFL, CFL, or NCAA statistics. I have also been one of the advocates of this on the beta team. It is an important issue.

-- I don't remember much about the others. I don't think head to head play would be a big selling point to this community,

It is to some members of the FBPro community who play out their leagues head to head. I suspect this could be a feature that brings in some madden league players as well. It isn't a big deal to me personally.

and I don't know what you mean by "uber" scheduler -- either a scheduler works or it doesn't.

That is a little simplistic. The scheduler works for what it does - round robin schedules that can be hand edited, but it doesn't do dynamic shedules with division matchups and strength of schedule like a more advance editor would. It works, but it is limited.

As for a beta team -- the other games you mentioned had beta teams work with the game *before* its release, not after.

The beta teams work on the project before, during, and after the release. I have been on several beta teams, and that has always been the case with the regular beta and QA crew.

I'm not saying Maximum Football didn't have beta testers before the game was released -- I'm saying that since the game is in beta testing -- and from all you've said, it sounds like a LOT of beta testing is being done -- it surely can't be called a completed game.

Most of the testing is done on new features. The beta team gives development feedback and tests new features when added. The team also tries to check for follow on bugs and similar issues. The whole game isn't in beta, just any new features.

I think you're really exagerrating the expectations of this board. You've mentioned several times that people are expecting other things from MF,...

I disagree.

When people talk about graphics, they say it looks ten year old Madden, but they don't mention that Madden plays a pretty lousy game of football stats wise. When they talk about stats, they compare it to a stat simulator like FOF, but they fail to mention that the FOF graphics consist of a little ball moving on a numbered field. They want the best of all worlds, and that isn't a fair comparison.

[Antmeister]

Toddzilla, I am sorry. Wasn't able to do it this weekend. Would have been appropriate now.

[Passacaglia]

As I stated above, no one else has been more critical of inflated statistics than I have. When the original game vid came out prior to release, I was adamant about making sure that the statistics could resemble NFL, CFL, or NCAA statistics. I have also been one of the advocates of this on the beta team. It is an important issue.

I didn't say anything about "inflated" statistics. I'm not talking about stats that are very unlikely to happen. I'm talking about stats that are impossible. These are the result of bugs, not just some slider tweaks.

[Passacaglia]

It is to some members of the FBPro community who play out their leagues head to head. I suspect this could be a feature that brings in some madden league players as well. It isn't a big deal to me personally.

Then why were you whining about how that's what "we" want?

[Passacaglia]

That is a little simplistic. The scheduler works for what it does - round robin schedules that can be hand edited, but it doesn't do dynamic shedules with division matchups and strength of schedule like a more advance editor would. It works, but it is limited.

Personally, I'm fine with setting up schedules manually. But I can understand why others would want a scheduler that lets you play teams in your division or conference more often. Is the CFL round-robin or something?

[Passacaglia]

Most of the testing is done on new features.

Obviously.

[RedKingGold]

For the life of me, I can't figure why Mauruders doesn't start a new thread.

It's like he's asking for it.

[Passacaglia]

I disagree.

When people talk about graphics, they say it looks ten year old Madden, but they don't mention that Madden plays a pretty lousy game of football stats wise. When they talk about stats, they compare it to a stat simulator like FOF, but they fail to mention that the FOF graphics consist of a little ball moving on a numbered field. They want the best of all worlds, and that isn't a fair comparison.

You're right on this one -- I meant to say "exaggerating" not "exagerrating" -- my bad.

Anyway, this was the basis of my question earlier. I agree that the game lacks the graphics of Madden, and lacks the stats of FOF, so -- what DOES it have? I mean, if you're Moses, and Pharoah holds Maximum Football in one hand and Madden in the other, what is it about Maximum Football that makes you choose that over the shiny glitz of Madden?

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Personally, I'm fine with setting up schedules manually. But I can understand why others would want a scheduler that lets you play teams in your division or conference more often. Is the CFL round-robin or something?

I think most of the scheduling complaints came from the build (not sure if it got fixed or not) when the scheduler would occasionally schedule an 8-team league with team A playing team C 5 times (quite possibly all at team C's stadium) but never play team B. Some people may want special scheduling, but at a minimum it needs to provide a balanced split of opponents and home/away games.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

You're right on this one -- I meant to say "exaggerating" not "exagerrating" -- my bad.

Anyway, this was the basis of my question earlier. I agree that the game lacks the graphics of Madden, and lacks the stats of FOF, so -- what DOES it have? I mean, if you're Moses, and Pharoah holds Maximum Football in one hand and Madden in the other, what is it about Maximum Football that makes you choose that over the shiny glitz of Madden?

The play and uniform design capabilities?

Seriously though, people say the game doesn't have the graphics of Madden, or the stats of FOF...does it have the stats of Madden either? Madden's stats don't compare to FOF, but they are still at least reasonable.

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by Marauders

The graphics are fine for what they do. Even David admits they need to be updated, but other areas have priority. The graphics will never be on par with Madden, but they are on the update list.

Just when you think this thread could not get more surreal...

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by BrianD

The play and uniform design capabilities?

Seriously though, people say the game doesn't have the graphics of Madden, or the stats of FOF...does it have the stats of Madden either? Madden's stats don't compare to FOF, but they are still at least reasonable.

That was my thinking as well, but I haven't played Madden since 2001 or so.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I think most of the scheduling complaints came from the build (not sure if it got fixed or not) when the scheduler would occasionally schedule an 8-team league with team A playing team C 5 times (quite possibly all at team C's stadium) but never play team B. Some people may want special scheduling, but at a minimum it needs to provide a balanced split of opponents and home/away games.

That is correct. The complaints came from an item that has been changed long ago.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by Surtt

Just when you think this thread could not get more surreal...

Other areas having greater priority than updating the graphics is surreal (unbelievable or irrational)?

How so?

You padded your post count, so please explain your premise logically.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Other areas having greater priority than updating the graphics is surreal (unbelievable or irrational)?

How so?

You padded your post count, so please explain your premise logically.

Are you seriously going to start giving posters here shit like this?

Give me a break you fool.

[JPhillips]

When people talk about graphics, they say it looks ten year old Madden, but they don't mention that Madden plays a pretty lousy game of football stats wise. When they talk about stats, they compare it to a stat simulator like FOF, but they fail to mention that the FOF graphics consist of a little ball moving on a numbered field. They want the best of all worlds, and that isn't a fair comparison.

Does MF provide more accurate stats than Madden? If not, what is the selling point?

And stop with all the "needs support" stuff. This isn't church. I don't have any desire to give Matrix 40$ so that Daivd might one day make a good game.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Marauders

I disagree.

When people talk about graphics, they say it looks ten year old Madden, but they don't mention that Madden plays a pretty lousy game of football stats wise. When they talk about stats, they compare it to a stat simulator like FOF, but they fail to mention that the FOF graphics consist of a little ball moving on a numbered field. They want the best of all worlds, and that isn't a fair comparison.

I've never said MF should match the graphics of Madden and the stats of FOF - I want something that comes a little closer to both worlds than MF does. Graphically, it's miles behind Madden. Stats/sim wise, it's miles behind FOF (and from what I've seen, it doesn't even match Madden). It's not even close to either end of the spectrum.

The only thing I can see going for MF is the customizing aspects. Which is great, but unless the engine can produce plausible results, I don't think the game is going to find much of an audience here - consider that this is a forum originally based off of FOF, so this is an audience that trends towards demanding realistic results from their football games.

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Other areas having greater priority than updating the graphics is surreal (unbelievable or irrational)?

How so?

You padded your post count, so please explain your premise logically.

Originally Posted by David Winter
For about a year now (maybe more), I have been stating that the 'next version' of the game would have some additional features asked for by the playing community. Some of those features involve AI trades, salary caps, online game play, etc.. Those of you that frequent the board probably know what I'm talking about. As I said, I've been saying that 'the next version will have those'. We'll, this is being advertised now as 'the next version', but I'm afraid those features I just mentioned will not be included.

So he could update to directX 9.

You expect us to believe that Daivd has done a complete about face and stopped development on his beloved graphics engine to actually fix bugs?


BTW
Serious, Marauders my hat goes off to you.
Normally a troll(yes you are) will get bored and go away.
But you come back time and time again to stir up the muck.

[Barkeep49]

I think calling Maruaders a troll is unfair when it's clear he's simply a true believer.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Originally Posted by Atocep

This is David's first attempt at making a football game as far as I know. He would have been smart to stick to something simple and straightfoward to focus on and build from there either though major updates or an entirely new version of the game, especially when you take into consideration the limited staff he's working with.

2nd attempt as far as i recall. he made a cfl game a while back

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I think calling Maruaders a troll is unfair when it's clear he's simply a true believer.

Every time this thread dies out, he shows up and revives it for a day or two.
Adds nothing new, just his same old arguments and claiming a NDA, then after a day disappears again.
I can not see any reason to it other then to be a troll.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by Surtt

You expect us to believe that Daivd has done a complete about face and stopped development on his beloved graphics engine to actually fix bugs?

This is the kind of myth I am talking about. You make this statement as if you know what you are talking about, and you really don't. You understand part of it, but the rest you make up.

The graphics engine for Maximum Football is not David's; it is a commercial graphics engine. David has always stated, in both the public and private forum, that he would work to upgrade the graphics only after any gameplay issues or upgrades were complete. This has always had priority over an on-field graphics overhaul.

The move to the version 2.x nomenclature was done for three reasons: the game has had many added features since 1.x, it moved to Direct X 9, and it moved to support Vista in place of Windows 98se (it supports XP as well). It was a logical step to differentiate the 1.x series with the 2.x series, as all patches moving forward must be patched to the 2.x base build. David explained to the community why the change was made and that it was not the major overhaul that he has drawn up for future versions of the game. He did this prior to making the change, so it was in no way an act to be deceitful or dishonest.

Serious, Marauders my hat goes off to you.
Normally a troll(yes you are) will get bored and go away.
But you come back time and time again to stir up the muck.

Since I am on topic, and I am not just posting to rock the boat, give personal insults, or bait a negative response, I am not a troll by definition. One may want to look through this thread and see who fits the definition.

Every time this thread dies out, he shows up and revives it for a day or two. Adds nothing new, just his same old arguments and claiming a NDA, then after a day disappears again.

I am under an NDA. That is a legal and binding contract. Like it or not, there it is.

I also am not going to spend each day posting here. If I have something to say, I say it. If I don't, I am not going to. It is the same for everyone.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Are you seriously going to start giving posters here shit like this?

Yes, I am going to ask people to explain their posts rationally and logically from time to time. I generally don't have to do that with most people I converse with, but most of the people I converse with aren't trying to take cheap shots either.

Do you have a rational reason for having problem with that?

[Passacaglia]

You say a lot for someone under an NDA.

[Toddzilla]

Point of contention....

There have been many shots taken at Marauders in the last 20 or so pages and none of them have been cheap. He's worked hard and earned every single one of them.

Don't sell yourself short, Marauders, you're a terrific troll...

[Toddzilla]

Mystery Solved!

Marauders = Bubba!

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

I still give alot of credit to David Winter for making this game. Consider that the sales of computer sports games are a fraction of that of the console games. Then consider that everybody who makes computer sports games makes them as text sims. So I don't care at all about the delays.

And any fair-minded person has to acknowledge that this game should have and would have already been out if the 'career-play' option hadn't been pushed so much. But it will just make for a better game when it does happen.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I've never seen so much talk about such a ham and egg project.

QFT

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by Atocep

The comparison to discussing FOF on the madden boards is way off base. FOF does a very good job of doing what it sets out to do and doesn't stray too far away from its strengths. It certainly has its weaknesses, but they don't detract much from what it sets out to accomplish.

The difference is that people are not asking for it to do more than it was designed to do. How many posts in this thread degrade Maximum Football for things it can't do even though those things were not part of what Maximum Football was designed to do.

Maximum Football wasn't designed with GM features, so why do the posts have complaints about it? It wasn't designed to be an NFL simulator, so why are there complainst about that? FOF was designed to use the statistics of NFL games in the past to create similar statistics in the future, and it does a good enough job at that, but I could go into many things that the game does not have as well, and I still have not received a reply to my request for a post that shows just how well FOF does with statistics in one week of using the five second sim feature.

No one has any idea exactly what Maximum Football is trying to do at this point. The things it was originally supposed to do, it doesn't do well and features continue to get crammed into the game as if it were a developer's sandbox to toy around with ideas and a way for Matrix to milk money out of people with blind faith.

It was designed to allow football to be played under different rules or even hybrid rules. It was designed to allow play with user created leagues, user created plays and playbooks, and user created uniforms. It was designed to allow third parties easy access to the files and databases for add ons. It was designed to allow multi season team and league play with CPU or human controlled teams.

The game does those things.

This is David's first attempt at making a football game as far as I know.

This is his second football game. The first was a CFL game.

He would have been smart to stick to something simple and straightfoward to focus on and build from there either though major updates or an entirely new version of the game, especially when you take into consideration the limited staff he's working with.

It would have been best to do incremental updates with specific lockdown points and parallel development. Although that is what I would have recommended, the problem was that there was a large part of the community that wanted the game to be much closer to an NFL and CFL simulator, and the quickest way to do that was to make the upgrades without specific lockdown points. Considering the time needed for each improvement, it is likely that it ended up better that way for long run results, but it made for a product that was not as clean as it could have been over the last year.

As it is, there are areas that I would have liked to be completed for 2.x that likely will not be. Again, there is always a struggle between adding features and making sure that the product has a clean build.

You can't just keep throwing features at people and hope that one day a game forms out of it. But then again, we have to actually play the game or our opinion doesn't mean much.

I agree.

[Northwood_DK]

Wow

You've got some nerve coming here and complain about a delay in posting game stats.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Marauders

FOF was designed to use the statistics of NFL games in the past to create similar statistics in the future, and it does a good enough job at that, but I could go into many things that the game does not have as well, and I still have not received a reply to my request for a post that shows just how well FOF does with statistics in one week of using the five second sim feature.

Go here and browse away. This is a FOF league that uses the sim feature you wanted to see.

The link below shows a year's worth of games. Click on any score to go the box score for the game.

http://www.fof-ihof.com/season/sched...r=2015&stage=B


Then feel free to browse the rest of the site:

http://www.fof-ihof.com/index.php

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by Marauders

The graphics engine for Maximum Football is not David's; it is a commercial graphics engine. David has always stated, in both the public and private forum, that he would work to upgrade the graphics only after any gameplay issues or upgrades were complete. This has always had priority over an on-field graphics overhaul.

The move to the version 2.x nomenclature was done for three reasons: the game has had many added features since 1.x, it moved to Direct X 9, and it moved to support Vista in place of Windows 98se (it supports XP as well). It was a logical step to differentiate the 1.x series with the 2.x series, as all patches moving forward must be patched to the 2.x base build. David explained to the community why the change was made and that it was not the major overhaul that he has drawn up for future versions of the game. He did this prior to making the change, so it was in no way an act to be deceitful or dishonest.

So you are saying the graphics do have priority.

Since I am on topic, and I am not just posting to rock the boat, give personal insults, or bait a negative response, I am not a troll by definition. One may want to look through this thread and see who fits the definition.

From Wikipedia

An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response.

You com here claiming MF is a good game (posts controversial messages)
knowing no one here agrees with you. (baiting other users into an emotional response)

After this may pages, why are you still posting in this thread?
Do you think you are going to convince anyone anything about MF?

I am under an NDA. That is a legal and binding contract. Like it or not, there it is.

That means you should not be posting about it.
It is not something to hide behind.

[Anthony]

why hasn't Marauders been banned yet. this is clear trolling.

marauders - you've made your point, several times over.


stop.

[Toddzilla]

Ant - clock is tickin' man....

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by Surtt

So you are saying the graphics do have priority.

Of course I am not saying that.

You do understand that Vista is an OS that was released by Microsoft and is on almost all new machines sold to the public. Support for Vista was the major change. Since very little of the graphics was changed (a few bump maps and shaders in Direct X 9), your logic is invalid.

You com here claiming MF is a good game (posts controversial messages) knowing no one here agrees with you. (baiting other users into an emotional response)

Nice try, but your examples don't even fit the definition. By your premise, a person that posts, "So how will the Giants offense do this year," in a Giants forum is a troll. The topic of this thread is Maximum Football???. Note the question marks. It is a thread for questions, answers, and discussion, and that's what I am doing.

That means you should not be posting about it. It is not something to hide behind.

I take the NDA seriously, and if you don't like my interpretation of it, then there isn't much I can do about that. The NDA allows me to post about some things and not about others. It isn't a gag order.

I could downgrade my version of the game and post some stats, but why should I? Most of the people here asking me to post stats have been rude, crude, or have violatated just about every rule on this board. Yeah, PM's count too (for those who say they have been relatively nice).

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

why hasn't Marauders been banned yet. this is clear trolling.

Answering questions and posting on-topic is trolling? That is invalid logic.

Ad hominem posts are against the posted rules though.

[stevew]

What the fuck has this thread become?

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by stevew

What the fuck has this thread become?

Maximum Maraudyrdom but, instead of dynamite, he has strapped copies of MF to himself.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Marauders

and I still have not received a reply to my request for a post that shows just how well FOF does with statistics in one week of using the five second sim feature.

What the hell are you talking about? What "five second sim feature"?

[stevew]

Daivd should stop posting here in disguise

[stevew]

Or is it jnnefier?

6000 posts in this thread now, what a momentus occasion for a pile of shit useless ass CFL game.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by stevew

Or is it jnnefier?

875-6039....