Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Would be awesome if they treated it as two different federations, and had a legit draft instead of the random picks out of a hat that they used to do. And for the love of god, please don't add another world championship.

If you are proposing two different federations doesnt the new federation need a championship? Or are you proposing a floating championship like in the old territory days? I kind of think with Kevin Dunn and his hotshot booking the new company will need a championship for their underdeveloped storylines.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Would be awesome if they treated it as two different federations, and had a legit draft instead of the random picks out of a hat that they used to do. And for the love of god, please don't add another world championship.

Isn't that what NXT is? I'd like to see mid-card get some storylines for once but knowing the WWE it will still be top guy driven. It really feels like it's going to be the old guard on RAW and then the "new" Era on Smackdown since they've been pushing that point lately. Wrestlers will have to "graduate" to RAW but will that be enough to keep the attention without a title because there is no way you take the belt off the main show.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

If you are proposing two different federations doesnt the new federation need a championship? Or are you proposing a floating championship like in the old territory days? I kind of think with Kevin Dunn and his hotshot booking the new company will need a championship for their underdeveloped storylines.

In a perfect world, for me, the IC & US titles would be show exclusive and the world champ would float from show to show. I lived through the first brand extension, there was a point in time where it seemed like they were making the rules up segment to segment. Guys would show up on each show, regardless of what show they belonged to. During the draft one year they drafted Lashley and said he'd have to give up his ECW title to go to RAW because the ECW champion couldn't be on Raw, then they drafted Bautista from Smackdown to Raw but still let him wrestle for the Smackdown title, even though 10 minutes earlier they'd established that he wouldn't be able to take the title with him anyway.

TLR, it was a complete clusterfuck.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

there was a point in time where it seemed like they were making the rules up segment to segment

Isn't that kind of how all wrestling is all the time?

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Isn't that kind of how all wrestling is all the time?

Not when there's a modicum of quality to it.

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

In a perfect world, for me, the IC & US titles would be show exclusive and the world champ would float from show to show. I lived through the first brand extension, there was a point in time where it seemed like they were making the rules up segment to segment. Guys would show up on each show, regardless of what show they belonged to. During the draft one year they drafted Lashley and said he'd have to give up his ECW title to go to RAW because the ECW champion couldn't be on Raw, then they drafted Bautista from Smackdown to Raw but still let him wrestle for the Smackdown title, even though 10 minutes earlier they'd established that he wouldn't be able to take the title with him anyway.

TLR, it was a complete clusterfuck.

Wasn't Bautista drafted to Raw the next year (08)? Otherwise I agree with a lot of what you're saying and if you had a world champion who was the only person who could appear on both shows, it would make him more special. Same with the tag titles.

To me, there can be potential benefits for WWE in doing a brand split. I watch Raw out of habit, but I very rarely watch Smackdown and only look for the spoilers. If Smackdown had wrestlers exclusive to it that I was a big fan of (Nakamura, Samoa Joe, etc.) I would definitely be much more likely to watch it or at least watch it on Hulu the next day.

[Jon]

I like the idea of a brand split, I just want 2 different feds.

Keep the name of the shows, but have them represent a different federation. Raw can be WWE, and they can bring back WCW for Smackdown.

I don't know why, but the idea of a Raw champion or a Smackdown champion just doesn't work for me.

[PilotMan]

"Show" specific champions are one of the dumbest ideas ever. Champions can only be part of a fed. Not a TV show.

[murrayyyyy]

From HHH...

On June 8th LIVE on @WWENetwork
#NXTTakeOver: The End...

Where do we go from here?
----
So let the speculation begin, is Smackdown taking the NXT roster with a few guys from RAW in the draft to make up the 2nd show? I Could see taking some vets like Cena and Orton and putting them on Smackdown to help out the NXT guys like Cena did with his Open US Title challenge. Even if they lost they got in ring experience with one of the best guys on the roster on all the things you can't learn in NXT.

[Racer]

So what are the chances Finn Balor debuts at Money in the Bank as the mystery man in the 7-man Money in the Bank ladder match?

[RainMaker]

I think it makes sense to call up a few NXT guys like Balor, Aries, Nakamura, and Joe. They probably want to keep some down to keep NXT credible but those guys just don't have any use down there. I do think they called up Corbin and Crews too quickly. They would have been nice guys to take over the main event of NXT for awhile.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

They would have been nice guys to take over the main event of NXT for awhile.

I do think that's kind of an issue, some guys didn't get their NXT run before getting called up.

[RainMaker]

Dana Brooke also seems really green. Almost killed Natalya tonight. Surprised they didn't keep her down and let her have a nice run at the top of the women's division in NXT.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Dana Brooke also seems really green. Almost killed Natalya tonight.

And then there's this from the dirtsheets

Apparently, she is now groomed to become the ‘Roman Reigns’ of WWE’s female division.

I can't help but think this might not mean what Vince thinks it means.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And then there's this from the dirtsheets

I can't help but think this might not mean what Vince thinks it means.

That's disappointing because the division has so much talent in it and Dana is just not at their level.

[Mota]

I guess this is the era of owners vs. fans. The owners think they know better than us and shove crap down our throats. We reject it. If anything, that's the defining mark of this "new era" so far.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Watching my kid catch up on the past week or so via clips (network, YT, whatever). Specifically watching the return of Enzo segment, and I just can't help but think "creative can't -- or refuses to -- stay out of its own way".

The whole thing is just backwards. As Mota said, they seem determined to tell us what's over, while refusing to let what gets over dictate their actions.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Watching my kid catch up on the past week or so via clips (network, YT, whatever). Specifically watching the return of Enzo segment, and I just can't help but think "creative can't -- or refuses to -- stay out of its own way".

A problem I had is that Cass struggles to follow the script (like he is thinking too hard). Watching this week you can see him mumbling the final key words of Enzo before he is suppose to speak. Maybe it's not Enzo they are worried about on the mic?

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

As Mota said, they seem determined to tell us what's over, while refusing to let what gets over dictate their actions.

It's just not the same fanbase anymore unfortunately. The smarks aren't in the arena anymore. The PG era has established that it's families of 4 sitting on their hands for the most part. Crowd noise is put in the wrestlers music because there is 0 reaction for 80% of the wrestlers. Then during a match the 2% smark crowd (and I feel I'm being generous here) decides that they want to get one of their stupid non-relevant chants going instead of reacting to the match. Just wait to see the difference between a Thurs Smackdown that is edited and the live show. The only thing they can do is mute the boos on live TV. There will never be those hot crowds from the Monday Night Wars ever again. That was what determined things in the past and it just doesn't happen anymore(crowd reactions to a segment).

The other part is that people want guys to get over too quickly. Punk got over despite Vince. Bryan got over despite Vince. Cesaro is over now when Vince said it would never happen on his own Stone Cold interview. New Day was booed for the first 6 months and now fans are wearing dildos on their heads.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

It's just not the same fanbase anymore unfortunately. The smarks aren't in the arena anymore. The PG era has established that it's families of 4 sitting on their hands for the most part. Crowd noise is put in the wrestlers music because there is 0 reaction for 80% of the wrestlers. Then during a match the 2% smark crowd (and I feel I'm being generous here) decides that they want to get one of their stupid non-relevant chants going instead of reacting to the match. Just wait to see the difference between a Thurs Smackdown that is edited and the live show. The only thing they can do is mute the boos on live TV. There will never be those hot crowds from the Monday Night Wars ever again. That was what determined things in the past and it just doesn't happen anymore(crowd reactions to a segment).

But then there are NXT crowds which leave me shaking my head wondering how they get an entire arena of smarks.

Not every wrestler gets a pop on their entrance, but then again not every wrestler gets a pop on entrance at the indy level with 50 people & a room full of marks either. (i.e. that's not just a WWE issue). There's not a shortage of guys on the current roster that really aren't likely to generate heat if you soaked them in gasoline & a threw a match. But that's not really the crowd's fault.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

But then there are NXT crowds which leave me shaking my head wondering how they get an entire arena of smarks.

Not every wrestler gets a pop on their entrance, but then again not every wrestler gets a pop on entrance at the indy level with 50 people & a room full of marks either. (i.e. that's not just a WWE issue). There's not a shortage of guys on the current roster that really aren't likely to generate heat if you soaked them in gasoline & a threw a match. But that's not really the crowd's fault.

How many families do you see at NXT? It's almost a different crowd because NXT fans have to have the network to see the product. I would assume they watch more than 2 shows (so ROH, TNA, LU, NWJP, AAA, etc) where the RAW fan for the most part watches just WWE. I think it also helps that all tv tapings are in Full Sail versus the WWE hoping for a hot crowd in BFE (assuming we don't have to spell this southern one out) every othe week.

Also it seems like the WWE wants both guys to get their big move over in every single match. Not just the main events, the undercard also. It's almost like they are training the fans to wait to see who gets off his finisher 2nd because the first one loses the match about 99.99999% of the time lately.

[SirFozzie]

Jimmy Snuka will not stand trial for the death of his girlfriend thirty years ago, as he has been ruled mentally unfit to stand trial,.

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

How many families do you see at NXT? It's almost a different crowd because NXT fans have to have the network to see the product. I would assume they watch more than 2 shows (so ROH, TNA, LU, NWJP, AAA, etc) where the RAW fan for the most part watches just WWE. I think it also helps that all tv tapings are in Full Sail versus the WWE hoping for a hot crowd in BFE (assuming we don't have to spell this southern one out) every othe week.

Also it seems like the WWE wants both guys to get their big move over in every single match. Not just the main events, the undercard also. It's almost like they are training the fans to wait to see who gets off his finisher 2nd because the first one loses the match about 99.99999% of the time lately.

Like you say, the NXT audience is a different audience then what goes to Raw. Taping in front of 400 people at Full Sail for NXT is a lot different then going live in front of 10,000 plus for a Raw or Smackdown. That said, WWE has issues with 50/50 booking of the midcard. In the 80s and the 90s, you could build up guys by having them squash a bunch of enhancement guys for weeks on end on Superstars and Challenge and even Raw early on. Guys could get their moves over throwing around Duane Gill and Barry Hardy. I don't know how you fix it though to make more guys feel like superstars.

[RainMaker]

NXT has sold out some pretty big arenas.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

NXT has sold out some pretty big arenas.

But TV wise it's only been 3 events I can think of. When they did Brooklyn the night before WWE was there (Maybe a Sat-Sun thing?), London tour and Dallas the night before Mania. I'm not doubting they can sell out arenas, it's teh fact that I can't tell you if the crowd is hot like the night before Mania.

I didn't watch when they had cameras for Joe taking the belt off Balor but they usually do their taped show for the network in one night (like 4-5 hours in one show to take care of the month). This would be like comparing Summerslam to a RAW in Amarillo, TX. Sure those crowds were hot for those 3 NXT events but they were supported by a WWE event the following night so the smark % increased.

Besides those events I swear they hit up spots like Tulsa and Memphis on a tour. The Memphis stop was @ Minglewood Hall and that holds 600 if you are lucky.

[murrayyyyy]

Well UFC 200 explains a lot now (yes, I'm putting this in the right thread). Wonder if this is payback for WM31 or if Vince is getting something out of this.

[Toddzilla]

That promo was quite good

[molson]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Well UFC 200 explains a lot now (yes, I'm putting this in the right thread). Wonder if this is payback for WM31 or if Vince is getting something out of this.

Reports are that UFC will promote Brock Lesnar's Summerslam match on their shows.

But it would make sense also for the WWE to be able to use a UFC fighter on a WWE show for something.

And I saw this pointed out somewhere else - it makes some sense now why Lesnar's Mania match with Ambrose was so simple, boring, and low-impact, he must have already been training for this possibility.

[JonInMiddleGA]

My kid just had a great idea for the tradeoff:

Let Heyman do the introduction at UFC 200

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

My kid just had a great idea for the tradeoff:

Let Heyman do the introduction at UFC 200

I really wish they had the promo like it was except for it being interrupted by "My name is Paul Heyman" instead of Brock's voice just to give a quicker OMG reaction.

[Ajaxab]

So what say you about the Ricochet-Ospreay New Japan match at Korakuen? I just saw the highlights and am stunned by the athleticism. It makes WWE look like wrestling in molasses. But is it too Cirque de Soleil? I don't know if this will be a fad or if it really is the future of wrestling.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

So what say you about the Ricochet-Ospreay New Japan match at Korakuen? I just saw the highlights and am stunned by the athleticism. It makes WWE look like wrestling in molasses. But is it too Cirque de Soleil? I don't know if this will be a fad or if it really is the future of wrestling.

I thought it was fine. Have no idea what the uproar is all about although it appears most of it started based on the GIF from the beginning of the match. My problems with it are the problems that I have with most NJPW Juniors matches at the moment though, which is the insane lack of selling, or on the other end of the spectrum, the cartoon selling. I'm probably just getting old and cranky though.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

So what say you about the Ricochet-Ospreay New Japan match at Korakuen? I just saw the highlights and am stunned by the athleticism. It makes WWE look like wrestling in molasses. But is it too Cirque de Soleil? I don't know if this will be a fad or if it really is the future of wrestling.

But it's this type of wrestling that the younger generation wants. Even when you check out fantasy bookings they involve that style of wrestling because they give you "dream matches". I mean, what scenarios do you think there are for Ambrose right now with his style? Now do that with AJ, Nakamura or even Ricochet (who I think ends up in WWE soon with LU season 3 tapings finished. Not sure they can hold out for Survivor Series but could see him debuting at Summerslam). Unless you get excited by Dirty Deeds the other wrestlers seem better for any match which makes me think the style has changed in people's minds already.

I think the two highest rated matches this year (Meltzer) were both @ extreme rules. It gets back to the theory of everyone has to hit their finisher in matches now to fool the smarks/overcome the odds.

[Ajaxab]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I thought it was fine. Have no idea what the uproar is all about although it appears most of it started based on the GIF from the beginning of the match. My problems with it are the problems that I have with most NJPW Juniors matches at the moment though, which is the insane lack of selling, or on the other end of the spectrum, the cartoon selling. I'm probably just getting old and cranky though.

Isn't part of the argument that it does away with any remaining scrap of kayfabe that still exists? Maybe we're already long past that point where sports entertainment might possibly be deemed real. This match just acknowledges the lack of kayfabe, seems to shrug and moves on to have some fun in a kayfabe-free world. I'm not sure what I think about it....

[Suicane75]

Knowing it's fake doesn't take away from the fact that they're fake fighting. I guess I just don't see the point in framing it as a wrestling match if you're not going to sell. I'm all over the map though. I find that I hate 80% of Young Bucks matches, but the ones I love, I reallllllly love, and I'm not sure I could even tell you myself what makes the difference. I love comedy in wrestling, I just don't really enjoy when it gets interjected into main event or what are supposed to be blood feuds.

Edit: And I love Ricochet in LU.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I find that I hate 80% of Young Bucks matches

Hey, that's only 20% less of their matches than I hate.

[Mota]

I think Ricochet is awesome, I haven't seen a ton of his matches, but he takes athleticism to the next level in every match that I have seen. That was the first Ospreay match that I have ever seen, and he matched Ricochet move for move, which is insane.

Watching that match was like seeing a Moonsault of Shooting Star Press for the first time, but about 4-5 different new holds in a single match. Crazy!

[molson]

The Super Juniors stuff is not my cup of tea, but I love that such great variety can still exist in pro wrestling. I'd love to see one match like that on my ideal wrestling show, but I couldn't sit through an entire card of them.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And from the indy circuit

LaFayette woman pulls gun on pro wrestler during Ringgold show
http://www.northwestgeorgianews.com/...zsxxU.facebook

[Ramzavail]

heh Paul Lee still wrestles. Wow. "The real nature boy"

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And from the indy circuit

LaFayette woman pulls gun on pro wrestler during Ringgold show
LaFayette woman pulls gun on pro wrestler during Ringgold show - : Police/Fire

I love mug shots where the person's expression is saying to the photographer, "Boy, I was taking mug shots since before you were born. Now get a move on with it."

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by molson

The Super Juniors stuff is not my cup of tea, but I love that such great variety can still exist in pro wrestling. I'd love to see one match like that on my ideal wrestling show, but I couldn't sit through an entire card of them.

While I'm not a huge fan of Super Juniors I do admit I like them having a Standings/Rank system. I know it seems silly in a pre-determined story but at least you would know where people stand. I mean the WWE rankings are worthless when New Day can be in the same spot at Shane McMahon after 1 match back.

And is this just a Super Juniors thing or are tournaments like BOLA okay? Bola history in case some don't know of it. Probably the hardest ticket to get out there. I enjoy the matches just because it seems like you are seeing the future stars.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Say what you will -- small crowds, home crowd advantage, whatever -- I love how hot the crowds are for the NXT Takeovers

[JonInMiddleGA]

I honestly don't know if NXT has had anyone recently that purely @%#$@ annoys me by their very existence like Nia Jax.

Undertalented, truly undeserving of being in the ring with a large portion of the roster.

Just literally fucking annoys me to jawclinching distraction.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Say what you will -- small crowds, home crowd advantage, whatever -- I love how hot the crowds are for the NXT Takeovers

That crowd seemed 90% young male smarks just by nakamura's song being sung after it went off.

I guarantee they had no idea who Paul Ellering when he came out. Are we to assume some horrible team name like LOD 3000?

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I honestly don't know if NXT has had anyone recently that purely @%#$@ annoys me by their very existence like Nia Jax.

Undertalented, truly undeserving of being in the ring with a large portion of the roster.

Just literally fucking annoys me to jawclinching distraction.

But she does the Hogan leg drop as a finisher and he was champion forever /s

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

That crowd seemed 90% young male smarks just by nakamura's song being sung after it went off.

Well, in plenty of respects I've probably one of those guys. I prefer Nakamura as a heel honestly, but since kayfabe is dead then I'm pretty much left to be a smark.

I guarantee they had no idea who Paul Ellering when he came out. Are we to assume some horrible team name like LOD 3000?

Hell, I didn't recognize him either. Seeing him there was kinda like running into John Cena at Kroger, you just aren't expecting it so it doesn't register.

The internet tells me that Sunny Dhinsa & Gzim Selmani have had the name "Authors Of Pain" for the past couple of months. Whether they'll keep it {shrug} who knows.

[SirFozzie]

I hate WWE cage matches. Cage matches should be "Hatred" matches. No thoughts of escape or climbing out. Should be "I'm locked in here with you, and you're locked in here with me."

Second part of the match was pretty gnarly.

Give me AA/Revival matches every week please.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Well, in plenty of respects I've probably one of those guys. I prefer Nakamura as a heel honestly, but since kayfabe is dead then I'm pretty much left to be a smark.

I'm not sure if it's about being a smark compared to such a concentration of them. Full Sail feels like a combination of a hot Goldberg crowd with fans who want to take a show hostage. You could probably count the number of kids shown/women on two hands last night. There are times where that combo is good and times when it's bad(no where near sit on your hands Smackdown bad).

Another thing I think NXT is that the same matchups don't happen every week on TV with the shorter 1 hour show once a week(taking a guess).

If American Alpha and The Revival were on the big shows then they would have in the following matches since NTX Dallas: One on one matches with partner as manager, tag match (non-title), 3 man tag with Joe and Balor as partners for some odd reason, commentary for a match where they could talk smack or interfere, back to one on one matches, a three man tag match with Big Show and Kane because we need them on TV and then you finally get to May 1st Payback PPV. That's the WWE formula that is killing the TV ratings right now.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

You could probably count the number of kids shown/women on two hands last night.

Maybe that says more about the women/kids than the smark guys though. I mean, my son was in the middle of the smarks holding his own while his age was still in single digits. Proverbs 22:6*, ya know

If American Alpha and The Revival were on the big shows then they would have in the following matches since NTX Dallas:

Now that is a very fair observation/criticism.

*Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it. Not getting all Biblical about stuff, just playing on Austin 3:16 a little bit

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Maybe that says more about the women/kids than the smark guys though. I mean, my son was in the middle of the smarks holding his own while his age was still in single digits. Proverbs 22:6*, ya know

You don't have to tell me, every Monday night I have a 6 year old pointing out that Cass is a moron that has to mumble Enzo's words to know when to talk. I haven't given in and let him know that everything is predetermined yet but you can see the wheels are starting to turn in his mind that something about wrestling isn't real.