Maximum Football???

[stevew]

Is that messed up on purpose, ie daivd speak for 8675309

[rkmsuf]

there's all kind of douchery all up in here

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Maximum Maraudyrdom but, instead of dynamite, he has strapped copies of MF to himself[/IMG]

Maraudyr - funniest shit in 15 pages, at least.

[Passacaglia]

I was really hoping that image would be a picture of someone with a bunch of boxes of MF strapped to himself.

[Oilers9911]

If you could take Deion Sanders in Maximum Football knowing he would have the exact same career would you take him or would you take an unknown rookie?

[Apathetic Lurker]

Originally Posted by stevew

What the fuck has this thread become?

Something that keeps me coming back

[Surtt]

Ok, one last time

Originally Posted by Marauders

You do understand that Vista is an OS that was released by Microsoft and is on almost all new machines sold to the public. Support for Vista was the major change. Since very little of the graphics was changed (a few bump maps and shaders in Direct X 9), your logic is invalid..

You are selling the game as version 2.0 and now you tell me that very little was actually done to it?
Yeah, I have heard of Vista... (and you wonder why people are rude to you.)

Nice try, but your examples don't even fit the definition. By your premise, a person that posts, "So how will the Giants offense do this year," in a Giants forum is a troll. The topic of this thread is Maximum Football???. Note the question marks. It is a thread for questions, answers, and discussion, and that's what I am doing.

Using your example:
it would be like going on a Packers board every month or so, going to the Bears game thread, and and claiming the Bears have a better QB. Hey you are talking football right?
Maybe you do not see yourself as being a troll, but that is how you come across.

I take the NDA seriously, and if you don't like my interpretation of it, then there isn't much I can do about that. The NDA allows me to post about some things and not about others. It isn't a gag order.

I could downgrade my version of the game and post some stats, but why should I?

Every time you make a claim that you can not backup because of your NDA, you loose credibility.

[vex]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

And we still have more fumbles lost than actual fumbles. Still confused on how that could happen.

And still no answer on this.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by vex

And still no answer on this.

NDA, beotch.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I was really hoping that image would be a picture of someone with a bunch of boxes of MF strapped to himself.

Coming soon to the online store!

[vex]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Coming soon to the online store!

I'll take two.

[Mustang]

Due to the NDA, the'Danger' sign should be removed from the sign. At some point, we would hope to let everyone know that there is danger involved, but testing is ongoing to determine the dangerness level and it has been determined that there is only danger 3 out of 2 times.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Due to the NDA, the'Danger' sign should be removed from the sign. At some point, we would hope to let everyone know that there is danger involved, but testing is ongoing to determine the dangerness level and it has been determined that there is only danger 3 out of 2 times.

It's posts like this building off of the shirt that have been missing from this thread for like 40 pages.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by Surtt

You are selling the game as version 2.0 and now you tell me that very little was actually done to it?

One last time ... I am not selling the game. I neither work for Matrix Games nor Wintervalley Software.

Yeah, I have heard of Vista... (and you wonder why people are rude to you.)

Naw, detractors are going to be rude anyway. I had to ask about Vista, because you selectively ignored that it your post - just as you selectively ignored the other game changes in the question you posed above.

Using your example: it would be like going on a Packers board every month or so, going to the Bears game thread, and and claiming the Bears have a better QB. Hey you are talking football right?

Not really, it is like going to the Packers board and posting information about the Bears in the Bears thread set up in the Off Topic or Other NFC North Teams areas. That is actually quite common on the many NFC North Football boards I read or post to.

Maybe you do not see yourself as being a troll, but that is how you come across.

Generally, when I reply to people who make illogical claims or post in a way that is against the rules of this board, and ask for some evidence or support of the premise, the result is an accusation of trolling or ad hominem (personal) attacks. It is a typical response on political or sports boards where people hide behind their screen names and make posts they would never get away with in a live public situation.

I know this thread has been one big laugh for some people here, and anything that goes against that is unwelcome to the status quo, but this thread was originally created to discuss Maximum Football rather than to be a hater thread to bash it.

Every time you make a claim that you can not backup because of your NDA, you loose credibility.

I have not made that claim. I stated that I cannot post screen shots from a beta build without permission, as it is specifically against the NDA. I also stated that I could reinstall my XP machine with an earlier game build and run a season with that, but I have no particular want to do so, as most of the people who have asked me to do that on this board have thought it fine to post personal attacks and use vulgarities and expletives.

That stated, there are people here who really want to know more about the game: what it does and what it doesn't do. The post count on this thread makes it a little more obvious than a new one would, and the same detractors would post to a new one anyway.

[vex]

Originally Posted by Marauders

That stated, there are people here who really want to know more about the game: what it does and what it doesn't do.

Name one. Just one.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by vex

Name one. Just one.

She lives in Niagra Falls. You wouldn't know her.

[Pumpy Tudors]

My cousin Tanya is interested.

[vex]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

She lives in Niagra Falls. You wouldn't know her.

Damn NDA.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Generally, when I reply to people who make illogical claims or post in a way that is against the rules of this board,

In the spirit of being helpful, you should really drop this line of thought. Nothing pisses people off more than having someone new join a community and tell the community how they are violating their own rules. Without commenting on the rest of your posts, this is a trolling statement and it isn't going to serve you well.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

My cousin Tanya is interested.

Uh oh, me and Pumpy might be related. My cousin's wife that bought him the game is named Tanya.

HALP!!!

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Marauders

The difference is that people are not asking for it to do more than it was designed to do. How many posts in this thread degrade Maximum Football for things it can't do even though those things were not part of what Maximum Football was designed to do.

MF wasn't designed to produce realistic statistical results? Or even statistics that follow mathematical rules?

...and I still have not received a reply to my request for a post that shows just how well FOF does with statistics in one week of using the five second sim feature.

Not sure what you mean by "five second sim feature" - last I checked, the game has one way of simming games, whether you are watching in a viewer (which slows down the play by play immensely to allow the gamer to watch what's happening in a reasonable time frame) or simming a stretch of games.

Regardless, you can get the info you want by downloading the demo for the game and running it to your heart's content. That's the beauty of games that have demos - you can check them out before you buy...

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by BrianD

In the spirit of being helpful, you should really drop this line of thought. Nothing pisses people off more than having someone new join a community and tell the community how they are violating their own rules. Without commenting on the rest of your posts, this is a trolling statement and it isn't going to serve you well.

Sportplanet.gamespy.com forum rules:

Flaming, Bashing, and Trolling
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Profanity
No excessive use of profanity please. The occasional swear is fine, just don't let it be constantly.

[JPhillips]

Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Marauders

The difference is that people are not asking for it to do more than it was designed to do. How many posts in this thread degrade Maximum Football for things it can't do even though those things were not part of what Maximum Football was designed to do.

Maximum Football wasn't designed with GM features, so why do the posts have complaints about it? It wasn't designed to be an NFL simulator, so why are there complainst about that? FOF was designed to use the statistics of NFL games in the past to create similar statistics in the future, and it does a good enough job at that, but I could go into many things that the game does not have as well, and I still have not received a reply to my request for a post that shows just how well FOF does with statistics in one week of using the five second sim feature.



It was designed to allow football to be played under different rules or even hybrid rules. It was designed to allow play with user created leagues, user created plays and playbooks, and user created uniforms. It was designed to allow third parties easy access to the files and databases for add ons. It was designed to allow multi season team and league play with CPU or human controlled teams.

The game does those things.



This is his second football game. The first was a CFL game.



It would have been best to do incremental updates with specific lockdown points and parallel development. Although that is what I would have recommended, the problem was that there was a large part of the community that wanted the game to be much closer to an NFL and CFL simulator, and the quickest way to do that was to make the upgrades without specific lockdown points. Considering the time needed for each improvement, it is likely that it ended up better that way for long run results, but it made for a product that was not as clean as it could have been over the last year.

As it is, there are areas that I would have liked to be completed for 2.x that likely will not be. Again, there is always a struggle between adding features and making sure that the product has a clean build.



I agree.

You quoted every sentence I posted except the one asking about a demo.

[Passacaglia]

Please don't call me flaming.

[BrianD]

OK Marauders, I give up trying to help you. You are clearly trying to to talk at the FOFC community rather than try to be part of it, so you deserve whatever response you get.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Not sure what you mean by "five second sim feature" - last I checked, the game has one way of simming games, whether you are watching in a viewer (which slows down the play by play immensely to allow the gamer to watch what's happening in a reasonable time frame) or simming a stretch of games.

The sim that will do the week in five seconds as opposed to showing it play by play.

Regardless, you can get the info you want by downloading the demo for the game and running it to your heart's content. That's the beauty of games that have demos - you can check them out before you buy...

I have, and I see the same problem in the IHOF league stats I had seen in the demo. This thread isn't about FOF though, so if one would like to address this, please do not take it as bashing FOF, which I believe is a good game. By the way, I have not only stated this is so in this forum, but I have directed people making inquiries on the Matrix Games board about games with GM features to look at Front Office Football as an alternative to Maximum Football.

In my opinion, people should purchase games that have more of the features they are looking for. In some cases that is Madden, in others Maximum Football, in others Front Office Football.

MF wasn't designed to produce realistic statistical results? Or even statistics that follow mathematical rules?

That is non sequitur to my comment.

I suspect Ant is likely doing up some numbers with his cousin, and I am sure he will post some results soon. He likely won't have the constants set for a conservative NFL style game or improved playbooks, but he should have some results, nevertheless.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by Atocep

You quoted every sentence I posted except the one asking about a demo.

There isn't a demo, and there likely is not going to be a demo for the 2.x run.

I thought that was well known, and I considered your question sarcastic and therefore unmerited of a reply. If it was not, then there is your answer.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Marauders

The sim that will do the week in five seconds as opposed to showing it play by play.

According to Jim, there is one sim engine. The difference between simming a week in five seconds and watching a play by play is only that in the play by play, everything that happens in the sim is shown to you at a pace you can follow. Unless something has recently changed with FOF, there is no separate sim engine for fast-simming or playing a single game with play by play.

I have, and I see the same problem in the IHOF league stats I had seen in the demo. This thread isn't about FOF though, so if one would like to address this, please do not take it as bashing FOF, which I believe is a good game. By the way, I have not only stated this is so in this forum, but I have directed people making inquiries on the Matrix Games board about games with GM features to look at Front Office Football as an alternative to Maximum Football.

What problems have you seen that come anywhere close to the errors that have been posted here with the results generated in MF?

In my opinion, people should purchase games that have more of the features they are looking for. In some cases that is Madden, in others Maximum Football, in others Front Office Football.

If I'm ever looking for a game where I can change the uniforms of my players, or if I have a hankering to recreate CFL football, MF is for me.

That is non sequitur to my comment.

In what way? Am I asking for more than MF was designed for to actually count correctly when compiling stats? Am I asking too much for somewhat realistic statistical results?

I suspect Ant is likely doing up some numbers with his cousin, and I am sure he will post some results soon. He likely won't have the constants set for a conservative NFL style game or improved playbooks, but he should have some results, nevertheless.

It will be interesting to see some actual numbers, as opposed to hearing "I'm under NDA" or "Sorry, there's no demo for anyone to download and try out the game with".

[Passacaglia]

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by BrianD

OK Marauders, I give up trying to help you. You are clearly trying to to talk at the FOFC community rather than try to be part of it, so you deserve whatever response you get.

Brian, I understand your point, but there are posters here that obviously want to make this a personal issue rather than talk about the game. As a moderator not only on other boards, but also a moderator for real life political and economic forums, I am unwilling to respond to their ad hominem tactics with appreciation.

[JPhillips]

Marauders: You act like Daivd and Matrix have been consistently honest and reasonable about marketing the game. Part of the problem is the hyperbole and contradictions coming from the developer and publisher. If the problems were more honestly addressed before people put down forty dollars I don't think you'd get as much shit around here.

Whether it's Daivd or Matrix, there has been a consistent attitude of deception surrounding this game going back to release dates, refund policies, and feature lists.

From Matrix:

Maximum-Football 2.0 is the latest and greatest release from the acclaimed sports management video game studio, Wintervalley Software.

From Matrix:

Like its predecessor, Maximum-Football 2.0 allows players to experience the thrill of managing a team in any league!

Maximum-Football 2.0 takes the immersive team management and addicting play-by-play action and brings the graphics, gameplay and interface to the next level!

From MF page:

Maximum-Football is the ultimate football game for the PC.

And the contradictions:
MF Page

free agent players are not allowed to be drafted.

Matrix

A free agent draft system.

MF Page

Does the game have salary and player negotiations?
At this time no.

Matrix

Player salary & basic contract information.

[Antmeister]

JPhillips you are damn good. Good illustration on why people have distrust for either David or Matrix because no one knows who is giving truthful information.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Brian, I understand your point, but there are posters here that obviously want to make this a personal issue rather than talk about the game. As a moderator not only on other boards, but also a moderator for real life political and economic forums, I am unwilling to respond to their ad hominem tactics with appreciation.

No offense, but you being a moderator on other boards and real life political and economic forums doesn't really mean much here. It does give you credibility as a responsible adult, but every community is made up of its own members following its own social norms. When a person joins a community, he/she can conform to those norms or try to make the community conform to them. People that conform to the norms tend to be accepted much more readily. This counts for all communities, not just ours. Ad hominem attacks suck, but it is easier to get away with them when you are already on the inside. It isn't necessarily fair, but that is the way it works.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

According to Jim, there is one sim engine. The difference between simming a week in five seconds and watching a play by play is only that in the play by play, everything that happens in the sim is shown to you at a pace you can follow.

Although I thank you for explaining that, the point is moot in this case. Whatever engine runs the sim in five seconds runs it in five seconds. I guess I'll just call it the sim engine from now on.

What problems have you seen that come anywhere close to the errors that have been posted here with the results generated in MF?

For the most part, I see more very good (100+ Passer Rating) and very poor (40- Passer Rating) games than is the NFL norm and similar things. I brought this up before, and people said the demo had to be old (it wasn't) or that the stats were inside the NFL norms. It is valid that the stats are within the NFL norm on their own, but I don't see them matching the NFL bell curve or the mode. It it more like the NCAA. Overall, the stats are pretty darn good though, but if Maximum Football did that, as it does in some leagues, there would be a negative response here.

It will be interesting to see some actual numbers, as opposed to hearing "I'm under NDA" or "Sorry, there's no demo for anyone to download and try out the game with".

This really is an empty premise. The Matrix Games website has leagues with stats posted. They are available to look at, and many of them have been for some time. The fumble stat bug shows up in some of them, but other than that, they are not as bad as people have claimed here recently. I don't see any 800 yard passing games or 99-86 games like in Madden.

http://www.geocities.com/proindoorfootball/homepage.htm

http://www.mbsportsnet.com/mbfl/mbcfl.htm

http://www.sportplanet.com/sbb/jerse...3/mfl/mfl.html

http://www.geocities.com/gary_l_sorrell/

The will be differences in the stats, as some leagues use CFL, indoor, outdoor, rouge, three downs, or four downs rules. One league even modded to five down play. Some leagues use the quick sim, some use only the 3D engine, and some use some of both. Some leagues use default playbooks, some use default plus FBMax playbooks, and some use custom playbooks. There have been some extra tweaks since the last public release, but to be fair, the public build is what a person would be using if one had purchased the game, so one should make comments on that.

As I have stated on this board and on the Matrix Games board, criticism helps the game become better, as long as it is specific and constructive. That doesn't mean it has to be positive; it just means it should have purpose other than just bashing the product.

I am unsure why anyone would want me to posts stats anyway. As a beta tester, I know the game pretty well, and I can make the game produce various stats by manipulating the constants and playbooks. Of course, any game owner can do this, but I would have to believe that one would rather see results from other game owners.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by BrianD

No offense, but you being a moderator on other boards and real life political and economic forums doesn't really mean much here. It does give you credibility as a responsible adult, but every community is made up of its own members following its own social norms. When a person joins a community, he/she can conform to those norms or try to make the community conform to them. People that conform to the norms tend to be accepted much more readily. This counts for all communities, not just ours. Ad hominem attacks suck, but it is easier to get away with them when you are already on the inside. It isn't necessarily fair, but that is the way it works.

Again, I understand your point.

I will say that I came here to discuss the game. Some people took that at face value, and others just attacked at will with disregard to the written policies of this board. I would never allow that on the Matrix Games board or on any football or modding board I have moderated. Obviously, I would not allow that in a University or high school forum. I don't believe it is the norm on these forums either, and that is a major point.

I do understand that there will be some scepticism. This is, after all, a Front Office Football board. I also understand that some people have a personal problem with David for various reasons. As I have stated prior to this, I am not David, and I have been a critic of many of the same issues that people have here. I just have much more information on what is going on and where the game is at this time.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Marauders

There isn't a demo, and there likely is not going to be a demo for the 2.x run.

I thought that was well known, and I considered your question sarcastic and therefore unmerited of a reply. If it was not, then there is your answer.

It is Matrix's choice not to provide a demo. I will say that I will not buy the game without one. If the game is better than the perceptions that people have of it, then a demo would provide a good way to demonstrate that.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Marauders: You act like Daivd and Matrix have been consistently honest and reasonable about marketing the game. Part of the problem is the hyperbole and contradictions coming from the developer and publisher. If the problems were more honestly addressed before people put down forty dollars I don't think you'd get as much shit around here ....

Well, don't blame me for that. I have always believed in the adage that one should promise less and produce more. In other words, do not increase expectations to a point that the product is certainly going to disappoint. I am not part of the marketing team though, so I can't do much about it.

Whether it's Daivd or Matrix, there has been a consistent attitude of deception surrounding this game going back to release dates, refund policies, and feature lists.

We can take those all in turn if you would like.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Marauders

I will say that I came here to discuss the game. Some people took that at face value, and others just attacked at will with disregard to the written policies of this board. I would never allow that on the Matrix Games board or on any football or modding board I have moderated. Obviously, I would not allow that in a University or high school forum. I don't believe it is the norm on these forums either, and that is a major point.

This is probably the crux of the matter. While I am not familiar with any other Gamespy forums, I am familiar with FOFC. In the world of FOFC, you haven't been treated all that badly. Go into any political thread or any of the console-war threads and you'll see people get much more heated and short-tempered. You may feel that you've been treated harshly compared to what you may have experienced in other places, but for these parts it has been pretty tame. That is why I suggest that pointing to "written policies of this board" is not going to win anybody over.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

It is Matrix's choice not to provide a demo. I will say that I will not buy the game without one. If the game is better than the perceptions that people have of it, then a demo would provide a good way to demonstrate that.

I understand that, and that is fair enough.

I will say that I have played nice demos that were poor games and skimpy demos that had much better gameplay.

For old timers like myself, it isn't a big deal, but I can see that it is for other gamers.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by BrianD

This is probably the crux of the matter. While I am not familiar with any other Gamespy forums, I am familiar with FOFC. In the world of FOFC, you haven't been treated all that badly. Go into any political thread or any of the console-war threads and you'll see people get much more heated and short-tempered. You may feel that you've been treated harshly compared to what you may have experienced in other places, but for these parts it has been pretty tame. That is why I suggest that pointing to "written policies of this board" is not going to win anybody over.

I agree, unmoderated political forums just bite, as are USENET sites. I try to stay away from them.

Some Madden forums are well known to hammer anyone talking about other football games. The question is if the community here wants to act like that.

What is ironic is that I have had the same problems with the game as others here have, but when I talk about it, I am told I must have a grudge. Oh well.

[Passacaglia]

The question is if the community here wants to act like that.

You should really check out the rest of the forum, and see if that statement really holds water.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Some Madden forums are well known to hammer anyone talking about other football games. The question is if the community here wants to act like that.

FAIL. EPIC FAIL.

You are doing it wrong. Please get over your persecution complex.

Here are just a few examples of multi-page threads discussing other football games besides FOF.

Madden:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ghlight=madden
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ghlight=madden
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ghlight=madden

NCAA:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...=NCAA+Football
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...=NCAA+Football

All-pro Football 2K8:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...&highlight=2k8

Blitz, The League:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ighlight=blitz

Bowl Bound College Football:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...highlight=BBCF
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...highlight=BBCF

Total Pro Football:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...&highlight=TPF

First and Ten/Second and Ten:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...&highlight=ten

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Marauders

I will say that I came here to discuss the game.

That may be why you came here, but if you really want to know why people are responding to you the way they are, all you have to do is going back to your first several posts in this thread. You responded to everyone with a very condescending attitude. You didn't discuss anything about the game, you just told people their opinions were valid or not valid, kept using the "but he's just one man" excuse and even implied that people on this board may have sent death threats to David Winters.

Seriously, with the way you talked down to people here from the very beginning, I'm surprised everyone has treated you this well.

[RedKingGold]

[RedKingGold]

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by cartman

FAIL. EPIC FAIL.

You are doing it wrong. Please get over your persecution complex.

Here are just a few examples of multi-page threads discussing other football games besides FOF.

Madden:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ghlight=madden
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ghlight=madden
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ghlight=madden

NCAA:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...=NCAA+Football
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...=NCAA+Football

All-pro Football 2K8:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...&highlight=2k8

Blitz, The League:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ighlight=blitz

Bowl Bound College Football:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...highlight=BBCF
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...highlight=BBCF

Total Pro Football:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...&highlight=TPF

First and Ten/Second and Ten:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...&highlight=ten

How long have you been waiting to whip this one out?

[Toddzilla]

6000 posts in and *now* we're being told not to reply to the thread?

What planet are you from?

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by cartman

FAIL. EPIC FAIL.

You are doing it wrong. Please get over your persecution complex.

Here are just a few examples of multi-page threads discussing other football games besides FOF.

Madden:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ghlight=madden
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ghlight=madden
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ghlight=madden

NCAA:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...=NCAA+Football
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...=NCAA+Football

All-pro Football 2K8:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...&highlight=2k8

Blitz, The League:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ighlight=blitz

Bowl Bound College Football:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...highlight=BBCF
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...highlight=BBCF

Total Pro Football:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...&highlight=TPF

First and Ten/Second and Ten:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...&highlight=ten

And what is funny is that the Matrix boards don't have any threads dedicated to any other football games. So I don't see the whole point of what Marauders was trying to make there.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Coming soon to the online store!

LOL! You have too many gems in this thread stretching over a year.