Big 10 Expansion Thread -Big Ten ready for a playoff .. finally?

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

The Big 12 would be upgrading, yeah, but I hate that "BCS game appearance" canard.

Missouri got flat screwed out of a BCS appearance in 2008. I mean, I don't care how much you want to make fun of MBBF, or the University at-large, but show me another example in BCS history where a team went from #1 in the nation before its final non-bowl game of the season to a second-tier bowl in favor of a team it had beaten head-to-head two games previously.

I'll wait.



Yeah. Missouri lost to OU in the regular season and couldn't get over the hump against them in the Big XII title game. They beat Kansas head-to-head to even GO to that title game, but somehow not being good enough to lose that title game was more deserving of the Orange Bowl than...being good enough to play the extra game.

I'm not gonna sit here and say Missouri would've won the game had they gone to the Orange Bowl. That's speculation at best.

But there are exactly two plausible reasons to hold Missouri's lack of a BCS appearance against them: being a Jayhawk fan, or wanting an excuse to make fun of the Tigers. If either one's the case, go nuts.

Otherwise, you're just reaching for the low-hanging fruit.

Of course a third, and the most obvious reason, that Missouri lacks a BCS appearance is because they have never been able to win the Big 12 and secure themselves an automatic bid.

That season, the BCS bowls had the option of picking between Georgia, Missouri, Kansas, Florida, and Arizona State for at-large bids. Georgia and Kansas got the call and the other three teams had to settle for lesser bowls. Somehow, you don't hear so much from the Florida or Arizona State fans about being picked over, probably because Kansas and Missouri are rivals.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by cartman

Ok, for the sake of argument, Mizzou gets the 2008 BCS appearance. That still means that both of the incoming teams would each have the same number of BCS game appearances as Mizzou and A&M combined. How in the world is that considered a cheap shot?

So using this BCS logic I guess Virginia Tech and Florida State are as big (or bigger) of a prize as Texas is? I know this is complete bullshit but would love to hear your opinion. (and Oklahoma is twice the team Texas is going off BCS appearances)

[cartman]

Originally Posted by panerd

So using this BCS logic I guess Virginia Tech and Florida State are as big (or bigger) of a prize as Texas is? I know this is complete bullshit but would love to hear your opinion. (and Oklahoma is twice the team Texas is going off BCS appearances)

Once you start getting into multiple appearances, then you start looking at wins. There are only 7 teams with at least 3 victories in BCS games.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Yeah. Missouri lost to OU in the regular season and couldn't get over the hump against them in the Big XII title game. They beat Kansas head-to-head to even GO to that title game, but somehow not being good enough to lose that title game was more deserving of the Orange Bowl than...being good enough to play the extra game.

Then of course there was Nebraska LOSING the Big XII championship game and still getting to play for the title. That's my favorite still.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Then of course there was Nebraska LOSING the Big XII championship game and still getting to play for the title. That's my favorite still.

Got a couple of the scenarios mixed up. In 2001, Nebraska and Oklahoma both lost their last regular season game. That led to Texas and Colorado playing for the Big 12 Championship. Nebraska still made the BCS Title game. In 2003, OU lost to Kansas State in the Big 12 Championship, but still made the BCS title game.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by cartman

Got a couple of the scenarios mixed up. In 2001, Nebraska and Oklahoma both lost their last regular season game. That led to Texas and Colorado playing for the Big 12 Championship. Nebraska still made the BCS Title game. In 2003, OU lost to Kansas State in the Big 12 Championship, but still made the BCS title game.

Yes, you're right, 2001 was the year I was thinking of, where Nebraska got blasted by Colorado to miss out on the Big 12 Championship game and still got to play Miami for the national championship. I always forget about the OU one two years later.

[timmynausea]

The NY Post is now saying WVU will be the next school to join the Big 12:

West Virginia lined up to leave Big East for Big 12 - NYPOST.com

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

In the end, all four teams (MU, A&M, WVU, TCU) are going to get the opportunity to prove they belong. And all of the teams will be in a better position then they were previously, so it's hard to complain if you're a fan of any of those programs.

Article on Deaton interview this morning........

http://missouri.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1283792

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by digamma

And let's face it, the SEC isn't necessarily looking for competitive football programs. Looking back, Arkansas and South Carolina were a combined 18-25-2 in the two seasons prior to joining the SEC. Still waiting for one of them to win a conference title.

Now go back and compare (for Arkansas) it to the 20 seasons prior to those 2 and realize those 2 seasons happened when Hatfield bailed at exactly the wrong time causing the loss of an entire recruiting class.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

Now go back and compare (for Arkansas) it to the 20 seasons prior to those 2 and realize those 2 seasons happened when Hatfield bailed at exactly the wrong time causing the loss of an entire recruiting class.

Mission accomplished! My post was more tongue in cheek than anything else, but I thought it might pull you out of your shell.

I know the late 80s were very good for Arkansas, so I conveniently left those out!

[cartman]

You can also look at it from the perspective of the move to the SEC affecting their Texas pipeline. More often than not, Texas recruits that don't sign with a Texas school (either from not getting offered, or felt they got slighted by the schools) want the opportunity to play Texas schools to stick it to them. After moving to the SEC, that drastically affected the number and quality of Texas recruits that Arkansas signed, since those players wouldn't be playing Texas schools more than a couple of times in their 4/5 years at the school.

The 4* and 5* guys don't really care as much, but it definitely affects where the 3* guys go, the ones that become key starters and solid depth guys. Mizzou would be facing a similar scenario with their purported move to the SEC. The only guaranteed Texas game on their schedule would be 1 or 2 games at College Station in the 4/5 years they would be there.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by cartman

You can also look at it from the perspective of the move to the SEC affecting their Texas pipeline. More often than not, Texas recruits that don't sign with a Texas school (either from not getting offered, or felt they got slighted by the schools) want the opportunity to play Texas schools to stick it to them. After moving to the SEC, that drastically affected the number and quality of Texas recruits that Arkansas signed, since those players wouldn't be playing Texas schools more than a couple of times in their 4/5 years at the school.

The 4* and 5* guys don't really care as much, but it definitely affects where the 3* guys go, the ones that become key starters and solid depth guys. Mizzou would be facing a similar scenario with their purported move to the SEC. The only guaranteed Texas game on their schedule would be 1 or 2 games at College Station in the 4/5 years they would be there.

I also think the recruits are sold on the fact that they will play in Waco, Austin, College Station, and Lubbock at least 2 times during their career so their friends and family can still see them play in person and on tv almost every week. I totally agree this pipeline (Chase Daniel anyone?) is now gone. A lot of Mizzou fans choose to ignore that Larry Smith's turnaround seasons were at least partially based on Texas "leftovers". The apologists say we can still recruit Texas and now have the entire Southeast as well but I am in agreement that Mizzou will take a few steps down immediately and may never fully recover. I don’t want the SEC at all but Texas, OU, OSU, Tech have already shown their level of commitment by trying to bolt to the Pac-12 so I think the SEC is far superior than waiting to see when those schools will try to leave again and possibly being stuck in the Mountain West or with Big East leftovers.

[miked]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

The NY Post is now saying WVU will be the next school to join the Big 12:

West Virginia lined up to leave Big East for Big 12 - NYPOST.com

I hope they announce in the next day or two. Rutgers plays them this weekend and we are currently 2-0 this season against defecting teams.

[Ksyrup]

Rutgers is the sole remaining charter football member of the Big East.

[Ksyrup]

FauxPelini Fake Bo Pelini
If it lasts more than 4 hours call a doctor RT @Dave_Matter: Chancellor Brady Deaton says Missouri has "reached a firmness"

[bronconick]

I might have to break down and get on twitter just to follow all the fake ones.

[Ksyrup]

It's like a global 24 hour open mic night.

[Logan]

While it will suck to lose WVU, I'm very happy they're finding a new home. When there was that window where it looked bleak for them a few weeks back, I was really annoyed because the football program doesn't deserve to go down for all of those non-football related reasons.

And no, has nothing to do with the fact that Rutgers hasn't beaten them since I was still riding high from the Rangers 1994 Stanley Cup victory.

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by digamma

Mission accomplished! My post was more tongue in cheek than anything else, but I thought it might pull you out of your shell.

I know the late 80s were very good for Arkansas, so I conveniently left those out!

It only took me so long because I was out of town!

[timmynausea]

Is it weird that most major media outlets are now reporting some version of WVU to the Big 12 but ESPN isn't saying anything?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

Is it weird that most major media outlets are now reporting some version of WVU to the Big 12 but ESPN isn't saying anything?

BryanDFischer Bryan Fischer
I look forward to ESPN reporting WVU to the Big 12 after Craig James and Skip Bayless argue about the BCS.

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by Logan

While it will suck to lose WVU, I'm very happy they're finding a new home. When there was that window where it looked bleak for them a few weeks back, I was really annoyed because the football program doesn't deserve to go down for all of those non-football related reasons.

And no, has nothing to do with the fact that Rutgers hasn't beaten them since I was still riding high from the Rangers 1994 Stanley Cup victory.

Hopefully Rutgers comes out in a good spot as well. It seems like they still have a good shot to do so.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

Hopefully Rutgers comes out in a good spot as well. It seems like they still have a good shot to do so.

I don't know, seems like a lot will be predicated on Notre Dame finally moving which I just don't have confidence in. And the school can't afford to languish around until 2014, the program will get killed before then.

[Ksyrup]

Yeah, it seems like no one is willing to take the plunge to 16 teams. And until that happens, the remaining Big East football schools might be in serious trouble. All they can do is add some Houston, SMU, UCF, Navy-types to get back to 12. Whether they can hold onto AQ status is another thing.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Yeah, it seems like no one is willing to take the plunge to 16 teams. And until that happens, the remaining Big East football schools might be in serious trouble. All they can do is add some Houston, SMU, UCF, Navy-types to get back to 12. Whether they can hold onto AQ status is another thing.

I'm not sure it isn't getting close to a point where the Big East basketball schools are going to say enough and just not vote for any expansion and let the football side die. WVU would make it 3 more schools that would have to be all sports invites to keep it a FBS football conference. Louisville and Cincy would make it 4 or 5 if they go B12 as well. Are there 3-5 more schools that Georgetown, Providence and company want to play in basketball and other sports?

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by cartman

Ok, for the sake of argument, Mizzou gets the 2008 BCS appearance. That still means that both of the incoming teams would each have the same number of BCS game appearances as Mizzou and A&M combined. How in the world is that considered a cheap shot?

Because, frankly, it's specious. West Virginia lost to unranked Pittsburgh and #18 USF the same year Missouri was getting screwed, but because they won the Big East (which is not the SEC, the Big Ten, or even the Big 12), they got an automatic invite.

Missouri lost twice to Oklahoma, but didn't get the shiny because, hey, Kansas!

(as a side note, I'd have been upset if Georgia or whoever else had gotten in instead of Missouri, certainly - going from #1 to a second-tier bowl on the strength of one extra loss would rankle anybody, but the reason it pisses me off as greatly as it does is because Missouri got jumped for a school they'd beaten THE WEEK BEFORE. What the hell?)

So one school got a berth because it was a good program in a bad conference, while the other got punished.

TCU had great years the last two years. They deserved to play in those BCS bowls, and they deserved to not get paired off with Boise just so the big boys could avoid humiliation, but convince me they would definitely have gotten those berths without the top-12 rule in place for non-AQ schools.

It's a friggin' small sample size, but it's also such a capricious thing that, at least when you're talking about WVU/TCU/MU/TAMU, it's not all that relevant.

Missouri had one great year. A&M pulls an acorn out of a blind squirrel's ass every once in a while. TCU has been fairly consistently good at least since I was in high school. West Virginia always seems to have an exciting program, whether they're BCS-worthy or not.

If those two schools replace Missouri and TA&M, the Big 12 will come out ahead of the game. I fully concede that. I just don't agree that how many BCS berths either pairing have is all that relevant under the circumstances - especially since the schools coming in are going to find it more difficult to gain additional BCS berths going forward (and those they gain, the Big 12 likely would have had anyway), while the schools outgoing are likely to be just as competitive (heh) for a BCS berth in the SEC as they would have been in the Big 12.

Would the conference be stronger for adding them? Surely. Does the fact that they've been to a short handful of BCS games have a damn thing to do with the conference being stronger for adding them? Nope.

[bronconick]

DanBeebe Fake Dan Beebe
I'll tell you what, though, Missouri's speed leaving the Big 12 over the last two years is a much better fit for the Big Ten than the SEC.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Logan

I don't know, seems like a lot will be predicated on Notre Dame finally moving which I just don't have confidence in. And the school can't afford to languish around until 2014, the program will get killed before then.

Here you go. Chipper is trying to get your hopes up.........

Orangebloods.com - Talks between B12 and Irish heating up

[timmynausea]

Well, it's sounding pretty official now, so the idea of WVU leaving the Big East is starting to sink in a little more. Definitely mixed feelings as a lot of long term football rivalries will be over. Probably only one of these can stay active, if any:

Pitt - 103 games
Syracuse - 59 games
Maryland - 48 games
Rutgers - 38 games

Pitt is the expected one to continue, but Maryland might make more sense in terms of exposure in the DC market and coveted recruiting ground. In any case, WVU already lost these rivalries:

Penn State - 59 games
Virginia Tech - 51 games
Temple - 37 games
Boston College - 33 games

That's a lot of history/tradition gone. If Louisville and/or Cincy eventually get into the Big 12, they have 12 and 19 game histories with WVU. Otherwise, we're looking at:

Oklahoma - 4 games
OSU - 3 games
KSU - 2 games
Texas, Texas Tech, TCU, Kansas - 1 game each
Baylor, Iowa State - 0 games

Some exciting possibilities in there, of course, but it's going to be strange.

[Swaggs]

Bittersweet for me, as well.

Excited that we will be with more similar schools (large state schools -- in the Big East, it was pretty much us, UConn, and Rutgers + a bunch of metro schools) and in a conference with AQ stability. Bummed that we will be leaving our Mid-Atlantic rivals and no longer have a connection to the state of Florida.

I'm kind of back and forth on whether I'm hoping for the Big 12 to stay at 10 or move to 12, but I'm thinking that I'd prefer 12 so that we could have an 8-game conference schedule + play two BCS schools OOC and then two warm-up type games (maybe a subdivision, MAC, or CUSA team).

Looking things over, I can see the WVU-Pitt rivalry unfortunately taking a breather. ACC looks like it will be playing 9 conference games and Pitt already has OOC games scheduled against Penn State and Notre Dame in upcoming years. I have a tough time seeing them wanting to play 9 ACC teams, Penn State, Notre Dame, AND WVU in one season.

[Ksyrup]

I'm seeing on twitter that the Big East will meet with MWC/Conference USA. WTF? Only way to try to become (or remain) an AQ conference, I guess?

[the_meanstrosity]

Originally Posted by panerd

I also think the recruits are sold on the fact that they will play in Waco, Austin, College Station, and Lubbock at least 2 times during their career so their friends and family can still see them play in person and on tv almost every week. I totally agree this pipeline (Chase Daniel anyone?) is now gone. A lot of Mizzou fans choose to ignore that Larry Smith's turnaround seasons were at least partially based on Texas "leftovers". The apologists say we can still recruit Texas and now have the entire Southeast as well but I am in agreement that Mizzou will take a few steps down immediately and may never fully recover. I don’t want the SEC at all but Texas, OU, OSU, Tech have already shown their level of commitment by trying to bolt to the Pac-12 so I think the SEC is far superior than waiting to see when those schools will try to leave again and possibly being stuck in the Mountain West or with Big East leftovers.

I'm one of those who thinks Missouri is making a good move getting off the sinking ship that is the Big 12. If I were a Missouri fan the SEC wouldn't be my first choice, but it's better to go now while you have a potential invite versus later when there may no longer be an opportunity. I like the Big 12, but I still think OU and Texas will split at some point down the road which will destroy the conference. There is just too good of a chance that their egos will clash at some point down the road.

[MJ4H]

Definitely agree Missouri needs to gfto while it can.

[sooner333]

If the Big 12 can get Notre Dame for non-football sports and also get a six-game slate from them...I think it means NBC gets in the running big time for the Big 12 TV contract a few years out.

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Here you go. Chipper is trying to get your hopes up.........

Orangebloods.com - Talks between B12 and Irish heating up

Great. The one move ND can make that doesn't help Rutgers.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by General Mike

Great. The one move ND can make that doesn't help Rutgers.

Rutgers A.D. Tim Pernetti released a statement:

"The landscape in collegiate athletics continues to be a very fluid situation and we continue to be involved in discussions. We remain extremely confident that the result once the movement concludes will be very positive for Rutgers University.

While there is going to be a period of time between now and then that will cause our constituents and fans a certain level of anxiety, given the unique assets we possess, including our strong and growing academic profile, our AAU status and the location and high level of interest surrounding Rutgers in the nation’s largest television market, we feel confident in the end result for Rutgers."


I always thought that he had a plan already in place, but decided not to take the public scream/shout approach that other schools took.

[General Mike]

Look, I think Tim Pernetti has done a good job as AD, but he has no moves right now. Everything for Rutgers depends on what Notre Dame does.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

Is it weird that most major media outlets are now reporting some version of WVU to the Big 12 but ESPN isn't saying anything?

My close relative, who is an athlete at WVU, was told by his coach today of the move to Big 12.

[Buccaneer]

I'm happy for WVU only because they got from under the rule of the Providence Mafia.

[Galaxy]

Will Texas still have the Longhorn Network and the bigger share of the revenue of pie?

[Swaggs]

So, what are the tier 1 and tier 2 payouts coming up for the Big 12?

I'm pretty sure that the Big East teams have been surviving on less than $5-million (and maybe more like $3-million) per season since the 2003 TV deal. Hoping there is some left over to fund some new sports (folks have been talking about golf, women's softball, and the return of men's track which was abandoned about 7 or 8 years ago due to budget issues).

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

So, what are the tier 1 and tier 2 payouts coming up for the Big 12?

I'm pretty sure that the Big East teams have been surviving on less than $5-million (and maybe more like $3-million) per season since the 2003 TV deal. Hoping there is some left over to fund some new sports (folks have been talking about golf, women's softball, and the return of men's track which was abandoned about 7 or 8 years ago due to budget issues).

I found this blog post with the contract numbers: Televison Contract Breakdown «

That'd put the Big 12 TV revenue at $15 million a year per school. The Big East would be $5.28 million per year, but I think it's less than that as some of the money would be divided among the basketball schools.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Pretty funny slip up by Mizzou's latest basketball recruit. He tweeted:

Just talked to my head coach at Mizzou I'm hype about our move to the SEC

It was deleted about 15 minutes after it was posted. Just a 17 year old kid saying a BIT too much about a conversation with Coach Haith.

[RedKingGold]

Were they at a strip club?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Were they at a strip club?

Trying to fit into the new conference......

"Roll Tide!!!!!!"

"I'm rollin'! I'm rollin'!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I'm seeing on twitter that the Big East will meet with MWC/Conference USA. WTF? Only way to try to become (or remain) an AQ conference, I guess?

Wasn't ESPN and the New York Times reporting that all 3 conferences were potentially going to try to merge into one 30-team (or so) mega-conference?

I imagine it is trying to work some of that out. "OK, how do we make this patently ridiculous idea a reality!"

Sort of like the Netflix/Qwikster meeting.

[Ksyrup]

I guess it makes sense for all involved. Big East is about to lose all of its football members - provided they have some place to go - and even if they don't, will likely lose AQ status. MWC and CUSA are about to each lose significant football programs to the Big East. This idea preserves the status quo, to an extent, gives the Big East a shot at remaining an AQ conference, keeps both the MWC and CUSA in tact, and maybe even gives them the perk of moving up to AQ status.

It just seems ridiculous, and an outcome that only this realignment mess could create.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Wasn't ESPN and the New York Times reporting that all 3 conferences were potentially going to try to merge into one 30-team (or so) mega-conference?

I imagine it is trying to work some of that out. "OK, how do we make this patently ridiculous idea a reality!"

Sort of like the Netflix/Qwikster meeting.

3 10-team divisions, promotion and relegation?

[Ksyrup]

They were talking about possibly four 7 or 8-team divisions, with the 4 division winners in a mini-playoff, I guess, for the "conference" championship and, I assume they hope, the "conference's" BCS bid.

[Logan]

Report: Louisville behind WVU-to-Big 12 snag? | CollegeFootballTalk