COVID-19 - Wuhan Coronavirus (a non-political thread, see pg. 36 #1778)

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Do yours fog up? Anything to help mitigate it?

There's like a sweet spot where the mask is still over your nose but below the bridge of your nose and underneath the rim of the glasses. Even if I have it just right, it's not perfect but unless I'm breathing heavy it's good enough.

I don't wear mine exercising outdoors or it might be a lot more frustrating.

Also, I heard there was some trick where you put soap and water on your lenses as the soap keeps them from fogging but I haven't tried it at all.

SI

[SirFozzie]

I can't wear my glasses when I have a mask on, so basically I take the glasses off when I get in my car.

[JPhillips]

A piece of medical tape across your nose is supposed to help, but I haven't tried it yet.

[Thomkal]

So we went to Walmart today to get a pickup order where we got all but 2 things on our list, and even got the elusive toilet paper (still limiting one/customer) Went inside to get a couple other things and everybody wearing masks. Very busy inside cause a tropical storm is due here tomorrow. Just glad I won't have to go to Walmart next week, as its Tax-Free Weekend. in SC

[Glengoyne]

For wearing a mask with glasses, you need to commit. Slide the mask up further and slide the glasses slightly down your nose. Rather than fog your glasses your breath vents more toward your forehead. I learned this from my wife, who collaborated with many of her glasses and mask wearing friends to find something that works.

[Drake]

I just spend a bunch of time holding my breath.

[Ksyrup]

I'm damn near blind but wear contacts all the time except for at home. When I went to the eye doctor last week, I couldn't believe how bad it was trying to wear a mask with my glasses. Doctor told me contact prescriptions have skyrocketed because of the mask thing.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I'm damn near blind but wear contacts all the time except for at home. When I went to the eye doctor last week, I couldn't believe how bad it was trying to wear a mask with my glasses. Doctor told me contact prescriptions have skyrocketed because of the mask thing.

My wife's an optician (my daughter also works in eye care), and not only contact sales are up. Glasses sales are way up as well. She recommends "Cat Crap", a waxy substance that you can put on your glasses to reduce fogging. I don't use it, personally. I use a big mask with stiff fabric, so that it is under my glasses. I don't have any issues that way.

[albionmoonlight]

The states will still lack the resources of the fed, but I agree with a coordinated approach:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/04/polit...gen/index.html

[21C]

My high school has a student with coronavirus and is closing for the next two days to be cleaned. The state of Victoria has been suffering a second wave with about 500 cases a day while my state has kept our daily case number around 15 with most of those in Sydney. My city has had very few local cases but this new case will have the school and the city on edge for the next few days.

[bob]

I thought that I keep seeing that there is extremely limited spread via surfaces. If that is the case, why are places doing extreme cleaning?

[whomario]

Originally Posted by bob

I thought that I keep seeing that there is extremely limited spread via surfaces. If that is the case, why are places doing extreme cleaning?

Showing the flag/at least doing something

Spread over surfaces is very easy to 'accept' because it'd be so tangible, which is why people fixate on it (not just with SarsCov2). It certainly doesn't hurt and likely prevents the odd infection. Only is a problem if people think cleaning shit actually solves this particular problem (which many do), but likely is really more for show or rather convincing yourself and others of how comitted you are. Not just grand scale like here, but in general (like a supermarket wiping down carts or a restaurant cleaning laminated menus before handing them to you etc, etc). Like said, it is tangible, cleaning the virus away physically, thus putting people at ease because they can grasp the concept much more so than other ways of transmission (especially in countries that have the luxury of largely not having to worry about this before SarsCov2. Way more people would worry about sth someone else touched than sitting in a room with coughing people, much less worrying about sth like asymptomatic spread which you can't grasp at all).

It's like driving a car with no working breaks and fixating on fixing the windscreen wipers. Sure it'll be really good to have that working next time it rains, but not if you think that makes your car safe, brakes be damned.

[21C]

The cleaning is the easiest way to show that they are doing "something". I always scratched my head at the people in haz-mat suits spraying their disinfectant on roads and sidewalks. To me, it was being done for show. The same with this. When a school shuts down for a clean (they always call it a "deep clean"), parents are more likely to be placated about sending their kids back.

It annoys me when we disinfect our desks between lessons and give the students hand sanitizer when they enter the room and then they rub their itchy/runny nose.

[QuikSand]

More of a covid issue than a sports issue, but... ugh

Among complaints from Colorado State athletes staffers: Coaches have told players not to report COVID-19 symptoms, threatened players with reduced playing time if they quarantine and claim CSU is altering contact tracing reports to keep players practicing https://t.co/OMjaq7GFsK

— Kevin Lytle (@Kevin_Lytle) August 4, 2020

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

More of a covid issue than a sports issue, but... ugh

Among complaints from Colorado State athletes staffers: Coaches have told players not to report COVID-19 symptoms, threatened players with reduced playing time if they quarantine and claim CSU is altering contact tracing reports to keep players practicing Colorado State athletes, staff say administration covering up COVID-19 threat
— Kevin Lytle (@Kevin_Lytle) August 4, 2020

I'm sure it's only happening at Colorado State /s

SI

[Lathum]

Just read Sturgis is still happening. Craziness.

[PilotMan]

Our Kroger is still struggling to fill our orders. We can no longer order any cleaning supplies, like clorox wipes or spray. Some vegetarian products have gotten hard to come by, like TVP (textured vegetable protein), which is a staple for us. The price of it on Amazon has gone from $3.60 a bag to $17 a bag. Can't find it anywhere locally right now. They tried to sub out Vegan sausage patties for actual sausage patties today. Last time I was in there, they were out of paper towels again. We had to complain about a pickup where they left off almost $80 worth of product that they couldn't fill. Some of it they had, but I'm guessing the person shopping was short and just didn't feel like finding someone who could reach it. It's pretty incredible.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

They tried to sub out Vegan sausage patties for actual sausage patties today.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Just read Sturgis is still happening. Craziness.

Friend of mine is headed there today. Claims he is going to avoid big crowds... yeah, a biker rally is a great place to avoid big crowds!

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

We had to complain about a pickup where they left off almost $80 worth of product that they couldn't fill. Some of it they had, but I'm guessing the person shopping was short and just didn't feel like finding someone who could reach it. It's pretty incredible.

That's happened before for us. Though my wife feels comfortable going in to grab one or two things if they leave it off because we do our pickup at 10am and there is almost no one in the Kroger at that time. Amusingly it happened for Box Wine - and when the wife went in the box wine that we ordered was stocked to the brim. On the shelf next to the other box wine we ordered that was filled. Just seemed like the bagger just didn't want to be bothered looking at the next shelf over for reds.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I really wish everyone's behavior since schools closed in March reflected the current urgency to get the kids back in school in August.

The my youngest son’s school district has voted to go online only for the first four weeks of the year. They have scheduled a meeting in four weeks to see where we are with the numbers.

Other than the general we will clean more and have the kids clean more, we still have not seen a specific plan for how they are going to deal with the kids being back at school. Again, we closed the schools in March and there is still no plan. So frustrating.

[Atocep]

A 19 year old kid that played baseball and graduated at the local high school here passed away from Covid complications yesterday.

From Puyallup High, Former Standout Athlete Loses Out to Covid-19

[GrantDawg]

My son's college has now stepped the restrictions for returning again. They have to pass two test before leaving quarantine. This means he will be stuck in his room for 5-7 days, only allowed to go to the bathroom and to the testing sight. They are going to be provided a mni-frig with food and snacks, with regular meals delivered. They also have some kind of on-campus ordering system for other needs.
After quarantine, they will not be allowed to leave campus through September (except to use the hiking tails). There will be no group gatherings in buildings unless coordinate with social distancing. They will only be allowed travel inside the county after September.
My son still wants to go. I worry, but then that is what I do.

[Ksyrup]

Our school board decided to make online mandatory for the first 2 weeks (starting August 26th) then will meet again on September 8th to reassess in-person school starting September 14th. They had originally voted to allow parent choice of either in-person or online starting on the 26th.

[Vegas Vic]

COVID-19 indirectly takes another life. Bizarre story.

Rape suspect, freed due to virus, kills accuser

[NobodyHere]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/08/us/du...rnd/index.html

I thought this was interesting. Basically don't wear neck fleeces, folded bandanas or knitted masks.

Too bad it didn't test my plague doctor's mask.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/08/us/du...rnd/index.html

I thought this was interesting. Basically don't wear neck fleeces, folded bandanas or knitted masks.

Too bad it didn't test my plague doctor's mask.

Saw that story and thought it was interesting, too. Wish they had a little more detail in the story but I'm sure the paper has some.

That said, they link to the paper in the article so you can read for yourself.

Low-cost measurement of facemask efficacy for filtering expelled droplets during speech | Science Advances

I think mechanistic studies like these are going to be a little flawed in that they're black box (in this case, literally) and not literally real world application on how things spread. So it's not perfect but absolutely something to keep in mind. Also, I wish they kept the numbers consistent from the graph to the image of the masks - it's actually kindof hard to decipher which masks correspond to which results on the graph (you have to look at Table 1).

SI

[Ksyrup]

My wife has made several dozen cotton masks. Glad to see they perform well because she spent hours on them.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/08/us/du...rnd/index.html

I thought this was interesting. Basically don't wear neck fleeces, folded bandanas or knitted masks.

Too bad it didn't test my plague doctor's mask.

Interesting. I have been wearing a bandana. Not sure why it would perform worse than a cotton mask since it is cotton itself.

[cartman]

I've got a family friend that enlisted and went to Fort Benning for basic training back at the end of May. Before they started, they were quarantined for two weeks, and COVID ran through the barracks. He got it and recovered, and started basic. But then he caught it again, and it has messed up his lungs, and he's hearing he might be getting discharged.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by cartman

I've got a family friend that enlisted and went to Fort Benning for basic training back at the end of May. Before they started, they were quarantined for two weeks, and COVID ran through the barracks. He got it and recovered, and started basic. But then he caught it again, and it has messed up his lungs, and he's hearing he might be getting discharged.

The "then he caught it again" part is terrifying.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/08/us/du...rnd/index.html

I thought this was interesting. Basically don't wear neck fleeces, folded bandanas or knitted masks.

Too bad it didn't test my plague doctor's mask.

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Saw that story and thought it was interesting, too. Wish they had a little more detail in the story but I'm sure the paper has some.

That said, they link to the paper in the article so you can read for yourself.

Low-cost measurement of facemask efficacy for filtering expelled droplets during speech | Science Advances

I think mechanistic studies like these are going to be a little flawed in that they're black box (in this case, literally) and not literally real world application on how things spread. So it's not perfect but absolutely something to keep in mind. Also, I wish they kept the numbers consistent from the graph to the image of the masks - it's actually kindof hard to decipher which masks correspond to which results on the graph (you have to look at Table 1).

SI

It seems the CNN article got the conclusions wrong on bandanas and knitted masks (though it did correctly point out that cotton masks work very well):

In the case of speaking through a mask, there is a physical barrier, which results in a reduction of transmitted droplets and a significant delay between speaking and detecting particles. In effect, the mask acts as a temporal low pass filter, smoothens the droplet rate over time, and reduces the overall transmission. For the bandana (red curve), the droplet rate is merely reduced by a factor of two and the repetitions of the speech are still noticeable. The effect of the cotton mask (orange curve) is much stronger. The speech pattern is no longer recognizable and most of the droplets, compared to the control trial, are suppressed. The curve for the surgical mask is not visible on this scale. The shaded areas for all curves display the cumulative particle count over time: the lower the curve, the more droplets are blocked by the mask.

Here is Figure 3 which says that bandanas and knitted masks actually tend to work much better than nothing, but cotton masks work very well:

https://advances.sciencemag.org/cont...3/F3.large.jpg

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sincere question, so please avoid assuming any ulterior motive m'kay

For the 4th time in the past week, I've seen a case (i.e. people I actually know to at least some extent) where one spouse is hospitalized with a Covid diagnosis but everyone else in their house eventually tests negative.
No indication of any odd living arrangements, absences from the household, etc. so I'm assuming normal levels of daily personal contact. In fact, beyond late March/early April (IIRC) I haven't seen a multiple case household involving anyone I know.

Has anyone seen any articles that address how that's could even be a thing, due to the reported significantly contagious nature of covid?

(Yes, I'm trying to find an article or something that address this sorta thing. I just don't know how to word my request in a way that doesn't sound like I'm trying to play gotcha about it. If that was my intention, does anybody here really think I'd bother being coy about it? )

[Lathum]

I haven't, but I also know 2 friends in similar situations. I'm not sure it is the tests as opposed to how the virus affects them since they weren't sick and thier SO was very sick.

[sterlingice]

I have a dumb pet theory that I'm throwing out there but no studies to base it on so it's functionally useless. But I've been wanting to type it out for myself so here it is.

First, we've seen that different conditions make you more or less susceptible to catching the disease. I don't just mean the "pre-existing poor health conditions lead to much worse outcomes" from the medical journal Duh. But the whole "A blood type is much more susceptible to bad outcomes than O blood type" studies due to the ACE2 receptor and the like.
Genes, Blood Type Tied to Risk of Severe COVID-19 – NIH Director's Blog

Combine that with the viral load theory that your initial dose of virus makes for significantly different outcomes. Maybe the sick partner got a full on blast (sneezed on or in close contact for 8+ hours) at work or wherever so that hit them very hard. Whereas the spouse only got a light dose (light respiration but sleep in separate rooms?) from their spouse. The spouse might have had an asymptomatic case. That seems pretty unlikely, especially for 4 cases, though.
The Risks - Know Them - Avoid Them

Do the spouses have different blood types or significantly different backgrounds (i.e. less genetic susceptibility to catching COVID)?

[henry296]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Sincere question, so please avoid assuming any ulterior motive m'kay

For the 4th time in the past week, I've seen a case (i.e. people I actually know to at least some extent) where one spouse is hospitalized with a Covid diagnosis but everyone else in their house eventually tests negative.
No indication of any odd living arrangements, absences from the household, etc. so I'm assuming normal levels of daily personal contact. In fact, beyond late March/early April (IIRC) I haven't seen a multiple case household involving anyone I know.

Has anyone seen any articles that address how that's could even be a thing, due to the reported significantly contagious nature of covid?

(Yes, I'm trying to find an article or something that address this sorta thing. I just don't know how to word my request in a way that doesn't sound like I'm trying to play gotcha about it. If that was my intention, does anybody here really think I'd bother being coy about it? )

I even go back to the very beginning with Rudy Gobert and from what I recall Donovan Mitchell was the only one out of 50 in the Jazz travelling party that tested positive.

I was reading a New Yorker article today that look at the different positive rates and then asymptomatic rates in various mass outbreaks. In one of the prison outbreaks 70% were positive but 96% were asymptomatic. On the hand the Diamond Princess cruise ship only 19% test positive but 46% were asymptomatic. Some interesting theories in the article around vaccine history, exposure to similar virus or other genetic factors.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I haven't, but I also know 2 friends in similar situations. I'm not sure it is the tests as opposed to how the virus affects them since they weren't sick and thier SO was very sick.

Thanks for that, cause I really kinda wondered if maybe I was just super lucky or something.

I know there's also indications of whole-household infections (check the average persons in household stats for some of the hotspots) but seeing so many 1-person-only cases in a week's time really had me headscratching a little.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Sincere question, so please avoid assuming any ulterior motive m'kay

For the 4th time in the past week, I've seen a case (i.e. people I actually know to at least some extent) where one spouse is hospitalized with a Covid diagnosis but everyone else in their house eventually tests negative.
No indication of any odd living arrangements, absences from the household, etc. so I'm assuming normal levels of daily personal contact. In fact, beyond late March/early April (IIRC) I haven't seen a multiple case household involving anyone I know.

Has anyone seen any articles that address how that's could even be a thing, due to the reported significantly contagious nature of covid?

(Yes, I'm trying to find an article or something that address this sorta thing. I just don't know how to word my request in a way that doesn't sound like I'm trying to play gotcha about it. If that was my intention, does anybody here really think I'd bother being coy about it? )

I've read that some people in the general population might have had some immunity to Covid based on prior exposure to other things. That could explain both people testing negative despite being exposed, and people who test positive and show no or mild symptoms.

There was an Academic paper posted last month that theorized that because of this, the % of infections in an area that cause the spread to slow down, or get to at least partial herd immunity, may be much lower than we assumed. And in most areas, it seems the infection rate slows down dramatically after a projected 15% or so of the population is infected.

Pre-existing immunity to SARS-CoV-2: the knowns and unknowns | Nature Reviews Immunology

You can see this happening on the state level too. The U.S. national numbers show big numbers, a decrease, than a bigger increase, but that kind of masks the fact that states all went though their own thing. COVID barely got to a bunch of states at all until June and July, and the spread to those places was no doubt slowed by air travel mostly stopping in March. But when they got hit, they got hit pretty hard, like everywhere else in the world when it first showed up, and now a lot of those states have leveled off or are showing declines. There's been some smaller increases now in places in Europe that have opened up, but that should have been expected, and the numbers aren't close to where they were in the "first wave" for almost every localized area that was initially hit hard.

Edit: New York City, just like everywhere else in the U.S., has plenty of anecdotal examples of big parties, bars breaking the rules and losing their licenses, crowds of people, some tourists returning, etc, and their numbers haven't budged a bit. I hope that's based on partial herd immunity in the area and is a product of them being hit SO hard in a short period of time due to their unique characteristics that make any virus spread like wildfire.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Whereas the spouse only got a light dose (light respiration but sleep in separate rooms?) from their spouse.

I know at least three of the four situations well enough to know that there wasn't any unusual degree of physical separation or anything. Just (relatively) normal family routines/situations/etc.

Do the spouses have different blood types or significantly different backgrounds (i.e. less genetic susceptibility to catching COVID)?

The blood type thing I have no clue about but the genetics doesn't seem too likely to be very different. At least 2 of the 4 couples are from same/adjoining counties (yeah, insert mountain-folk-genetics joke here), and a third couple are pretty much standard mutts from adjoining states.

[Butter]

So... was looking at case counts for some reason, and noticed that Sweden... seems to have reached herd immunity, at least temporarily. I understand the real question is if you can actual get to immunity from this disease for longer than 12 months or so, but their deaths have dropped to virtually nothing after 2-3 months of a nightmare.

What do we make of this?

[ISiddiqui]

Haven't their neighbors death rates dropped to those levels as well, while having far far less deaths so far?

[Butter]

I'm not advocating that Sweden did the right thing, but it does seem they have also reached some kind of infection dropoff if not near endpoint.

[whomario]

Let's wait till the actual season where all infectious respiratory viruses spread much, much (add a few "much") more easily before banking on anything else as the saving grace. Seriously, for all the it "still spreading in Summer" this doesn't mean it isn't currently facing immense natural road blocks just by behaviours migrating outside (and unlike parts of the US their summer is not so scorching people go inside).

Right now the differences between Sweden and say Germany for example are miniscule with regards to overall 'behaviour' (how many people meet how many others in which sort of environments) with some stuff being more of a factor here or there (masks and reduced capacity in germany, way more working from home and generally less crowded work places in Sweden for example). Sweden isn't operating that much closer to "normal" than others overall and their normal isn't as problematic in the first place, as evidenced also by the comparatively small impact that flu season has compared to other countries. (For a plethora of reasons from social norms, workplace behaviour to low levels of pollution and thus weakened lungs). If there was a region that would halt it's spread at a low % and especially in summer, it's the scandinavian countries. That's not necessarily translatable to others, especially come fall.

This theory* might well be true OR might end up holding up about as well as the "kids theory" where it turns out that them not being diagnosed largely was due to circumstances (like schools and social gatherings like youth sports etc not being a thing), not actually because they can't physically catch it.

*Which is just that. For a primer on why this shit is complicated: The Pandemic's Biggest Mystery Is Our Own Immune System - The Atlantic

EDIT: As to the original question: it becomes more and more clear this spreads more effectively via aerosols than droplets, which is why household transmissions are way less than you'd expect (has been that way all along).

[whomario]

To add: The question isn't even if there is an effect, the question is how much and where does that leave us for the sum total. Assume that Rt under normalcircumstances in season for Influenza is 1,5ish for a bad year (there are multiple viruses and strains that mix and change year to year) and for SarsCov2 in the spring it was about 3. Now, we know that purely voluntary and untargeted change in behaviour along with 'saturation' from (short term) immunity is enough to lower it to sth well under 1 for Influenza making it disapear completely within 3,4 weeks of the peak in winter (bit earlier in the US than Europe btw)
Now, what we already know is that the same is not true for SarsCov2. We do know it continues to at least 'simmer' along in the population, so even along with further behavioural changes (both voluntary and not) it stays right around 1, a bit lower here or higher there.
Now the question is what % of this is caused by behaviours and what by some sort of immunological mechanism ?

Say a region is at or slightly under 1 right now through a mixture of both, will a change in behaviour (not even 2019 level, but maybe 25% less caution, 25% more contacts and more indoors) be offset to the degree it only goes to a bit over 1 or is the end result it being 1,5ish come fall ? Which is still way lower than 3 but also basically the spread speed of a bad Influenza season, only with a much more potent virus.

[PilotMan]

Now the CDC comes out and says avoid masks and people with breathing valve type masks. Saying that they do not protect others well enough. Just after I bought a bunch of them for us and for the kids for school. In fact, EKU just passed out virtually the same mask to every new kid coming in (theirs didn't even include the carbon filters that mine have).

This is not good to hear.

{edit: but it's still apparently ok, to just use whatever kind of cloth to cover your face, as long as it's covered, no filter, or material restrictions. Which makes almost no sense.}

[stevew]

Breathing valve ones are like a potato cannon for germs. I’ve long been avoiding people wearing those

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by stevew

Breathing valve ones are like a potato cannon for germs. I’ve long been avoiding people wearing those

Yeah, it just seems obvious that is only protecting the wearer, but not good at all for protecting others.

[molson]

The idea about existing immunity I mentioned above was developed more in another study, which Dr. Fauci had positively chimed in on. Immunity could be developed not only by vaccines, but by previous exposure to other virus, particularly other coronaviruses. This could help explain why children rarely show symptoms, since children typically catch many colds a year, many more than adults.

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/cor...244852012.html

[sterlingice]

At the start of this, my wife and I joked that, with a now 5 year old, we've already had COVID 18, COVID 17, COVID 16 1/2, COVID 16, and COVID 15 3/4 so maybe that would help.

SI

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by molson

The idea about existing immunity I mentioned above was developed more in another study, which Dr. Fauci had positively chimed in on. Immunity could be developed not only by vaccines, but my previous exposure to other virus, particularly other coronaviruses. This could help explain why children rarely show symptoms, since children typically catch many colds a year, many more than adults.

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/cor...244852012.html

So did that flu I caught in February increase my immunity?