FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[GrantDawg]

Edit-oops

[GrantDawg]

If you want to know why I am against the death penalty: https://twitter.com/breathtkinan/sta...7Mnv30YRg&s=19
There are certain states and people that have a blood lust. They want to kill, and they don't care about whether the person is innocent or not.

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[flere-imsaho]

IMO, there are minimally two solid reasons to think we should have an indefinite moratorium on the death penalty:

1. As many organizations have shown, including Northwestern University's Center on Wrongful Convictions, a lot of innocent people are wrongfully convicted on capital charges. It is patently ridiculous to have an irreversible process with this many errors.

2. Due to appeals and our justice system in general, it costs a lot more to go through with a death penalty as opposed to just life imprisonment.

I have no problem with putting someone to death who has genuinely committed a capital offense, so I'm not coming at this from a moral/ethical standpoint (that, to me, is a different conversation). Just from a nuts-and-bolts, cut-and-dry perspective, we shouldn't be doing it.

[Ghost Econ]

This is only tangentially related, but for some reason I always get NYC PBA tweets in my feed. This popped up yesterday and I don't understand it.

Is the argument that he had an aneurysm to sacrifice himself for public safety? If he'd died during a bathroom break would his death have had less meaning?

Remember our @NYPD70Pct brother P.O. Francis “Frank” Hennessy, who made the ultimate sacrifice 17 years ago today after he suffered an aneurysm while confronting a gun suspect. His sacrifice is never forgotten. #FidelisAdMortem pic.twitter.com/Fn18VQteTT

— NYC PBA (@NYCPBA) January 10, 2023

[CrimsonFox]

Houston crime: 1 dead, 4 shot outside club on Cypress Creek Pkwy | khou.com
https://abc13.com/houston-club-mass-...rime/12705051/

Another club shooting

[Ksyrup]

Tyre Nichols had the exact same birthdate as ... Breonna Taylor.

[RainMaker]

FBI Paid a Violent Felon to Infiltrate Racial Justice Movement

[cuervo72]

Colorado deputy shot and killed unarmed man outside middle school

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

FBI Paid a Violent Felon to Infiltrate Racial Justice Movement

No surprise. They have long done the same thing to White Nationalist.

[RainMaker]

Probably should be getting more attention that Abbott is going to pardon a guy just convicted of murder because the person he murdered was a left-wing protestor. The case is pretty damning against the murderer. He posted online and texted about he was going to kill protestors, drove a long ways to them, drove into a crowd of them, then shot one without provocation according to over a dozen witnesses.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-gov-...ry?id=98472082

[Lathum]

We are seeing the will of the people overturned everywhere by the GOP. Something has to stop it. Abbot overturning a ruling by a jury, the state taking over the Harris county school district ousting the elected school board, Tenn lawmakers removing elected reps, etc....they are openly trying to destroy democracy.

[Ghost Econ]

Yeah, but that trans person drank a bud light and had to pee after... so both sides I guess.

[RainMaker]

Holy shit. This is the guy who Greg Abbott has promised to pardon for murder.

This is ONE PAGE of the 76 just released. Here, Daniel Perry says “I will only shoot the [protestors] in front and push the pedal to the metal.” pic.twitter.com/Bg8r7SUtQH

— Sawyer Hackett (@SawyerHackett) April 14, 2023

[Edward64]

What a mess.

If the first bolded section is correct (supposedly based on the video footage), then guess the shooting was tragic but justified. Question is why did Dotson appear "raising a gun". And I'd like to see the additional footage & audio after the publicly disclosed on ends.

Footage shows moment New Mexico cops shoot dead innocent Robert Dotson after knocking WRONG house | Daily Mail Online

When officers knocked on the door and announced themselves no one answered the door.
:
The footage shows an officer knocking three times, but between the second and third knocks, the three cops discuss whether they were at the wrong address.

The officer at the door asks: 'Is this not 5308? That's what it said right there, right?'

His partner responds: 'No, it said 5305 didn't it?'

The first officer then requests confirmation of the address they have been called out to over his intercom, and the dispatch confirms 5308.

In a chilling moment of levity seconds before their fatal encounter, the officer then appears to say: 'So they told me the wrong…'

The audio then cuts out and a third officer, standing a few feet away from the front door, is heard laughing.

The cops then begin to back away from the door as they prepare to leave, but seconds later Dotson appears opens the door and raises a gun.

Panicked officers are heard shouting: 'Hey! Hey! What the…?!' before shooting Dotson dead instantly.

Officers confirm: 'One down, move out.'

About a minute later, a woman's screams can be heard coming from the house. The woman, later identified as Dotson's widow, Kimberly Jones-Dotson, then appears at the door with a firearm.

One traumatized officer, seemingly fearing another deadly shootout, says under his breath: 'Please, don't.'

The woman fires her weapon at the officers, who return fire. The footage ends after the conclusion of shots being exchanged.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

What a mess.

If the first bolded section is correct (supposedly based on the video footage), then guess the shooting was tragic but justified. Question is why did Dotson appear "raising a gun". And I'd like to see the additional footage & audio after the publicly disclosed on ends.

Because he lives in the United States of America in 2023 and three unknown men knocked on the front door of the house he lives in with his family at 11:30pm unannounced. I don't mean that in a crass way either. Showing up at anyone's house after dark unannounced is risky nowadays. We have had more than a few close calls with Amazon drivers almost getting shot when they making deliveries after 9pm in the winter months locally. The fact that they were in police uniforms probably made them more suspicious not less. In his mind, why the hell would three police officers be at his house at 11:30pm unannounced? Presumably, he is a law-biding citizen. He is probably thinking that this has all the hallmarks of a setup

I am curious how this plays out. I assume he has a right to defend himself, his family and his property against people he can reasonably assume are threats. On the other hand, the police absolutely have the right to blow him away if he is raising a gun towards them. Which right is more prevalent?

[Edward64]

The article quote above did say below and supposedly they knocked 3 times. I assume they said it loud enough.

When officers knocked on the door and announced themselves no one answered the door.

If that happened to me and I was concerned about criminal elements faking it, I would have yelled out behind my closed door and ask what this was about etc. and then call 911 to confirm ...

(Probably wouldn't have my gun as its upstairs in a gun cabinet)

Maybe the guy was drunk, hard of hearing, high on drugs, busy with his wife and didn't hear the cops announce themselves etc.

I am curious how this plays out. I assume he has a right to defend himself, his family and his property against people he can reasonably assume are threats. On the other hand, the police absolutely have the right to blow him away if he is raising a gun towards them. Which right is more prevalent?

Yeah, weird story. I'd like to know how it plays out too and/or if there is more to the story.

If I was in the jury, I'd say he does have a right to defend himself but not raise a gun towards cops (assume this has been vetted by the video). So justified shooting.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I am curious how this plays out. I assume he has a right to defend himself, his family and his property against people he can reasonably assume are threats. On the other hand, the police absolutely have the right to blow him away if he is raising a gun towards them. Which right is more prevalent?

They had no legal basis for being there. I think it comes down to what the body cameras show. If the homeowner came out guns blazing, he's in the wrong. If not, the officers should be tried for manslaughter.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

The article quote above did say below and supposedly they knocked 3 times. I assume they said it loud enough.

They could have knocked ten times loud enough for the whole neighborhood to hear it. No one is required to believe them. The police don't just stop by to visit at 11:30pm if you did not call for them to come and you have done nothing wrong. We have trained people to be threatened by strange people coming to their houses in the middle of the night.

If that happened to me and I was concerned about criminal elements faking it, I would have yelled out behind my closed door and ask what this was about etc. and then call 911 to confirm ...

(Probably wouldn't have my gun as its upstairs in a gun cabinet)

Maybe the guy was drunk, hard of hearing, high on drugs, busy with his wife and didn't hear the cops announce themselves etc.

You would be trying to avoid a confrontation and also accept that the cops have a reason to be knocking on your door at that time of the night. I would probably do something similar. I may be profiling but based on that daytime photo in the article of the street the victim lived on I don't think he or any of his neighbors are calling 911 to defend their families or their property against the criminal elements. They are taking care of that themselves.

If I was in the jury, I'd say he does have a right to defend himself but not raise a gun towards cops (assume this has been vetted by the video). So justified shooting.

He did not raise his gun towards cops, he raised his gun towards strangers on his property for no apparent reason at 11:30pm. His wife did the same thing. Once she realized they were cops, she put down her gun and complied with commands. If she did not know they were cops, it is reasonable to assume that he did not know either. The body camera footage embedded in the article does not do much in making me believe that he knew the strangers were cops.

[Ghost Econ]

Same thing happened in a suburb nearby but the guy didn't die. Police showed up due to a medical alert alarm. Homeowner came to the door with a gun. Cop saw him through the glass and shot him.

Cop was cleared of any wrongdoing and no charges.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

They could have knocked ten times loud enough for the whole neighborhood to hear it. No one is required to believe them. The police don't just stop by to visit at 11:30pm if you did not call for them to come and you have done nothing wrong. We have trained people to be threatened by strange people coming to their houses in the middle of the night.

I think, as a society, we badly overdo "stranger danger" where we're just expected to fear anyone for any reason. But I think if some crazy is knocking on my door at 11:30 at night, I'm going to get real fearful real quick

SI

[Lathum]

Part of the problem is I get the sense too many people have this Rambo fantasy where they want to use their guns to take a bad guy down.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Part of the problem is I get the sense too many people have this Rambo fantasy where they want to use their guns to take a bad guy down.

those movies were so ass

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Part of the problem is I get the sense too many people have this Rambo fantasy where they want to use their guns to take a bad guy down.

Well that's the thing...he came to the door with a gun and didn't stand a chance against cops. Would your chances of success go up if you came to the door against armed non-cops? I'm going to say probably not.

[Edward64]

In below clip, see around 2:20+.

The video isn't that clear to me, grainy and bright lights. Still willing to give the LEO's the benefit of doubt but my thoughts ...

(1) I did hear the cops announced themselves at least once (2) It didn't seem that the guy had the gun in a firing position, I didn't see an outstretched hand with weapon. Maybe he was raising it? and (3) I'm surprised at how quick the cops' reaction were to shoot. I assume they did not have their guns out already and had to draw them & shoot in a split second

I would like to see the body cam footage from the other 2 cops. Maybe better viewing angle of position of gun.

Chilling footage shows police shooting innocent man dead after knocking on wrong door - Daily Star

[sovereignstar v2]

First Blood was a great movie. That is all.

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[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

First Blood was a great movie. That is all.

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Super anti-cop, too.

[JonInMiddleGA]

That NM deal is a tough one.

I'm not sure anybody did anything wrong except go to the wrong door. THAT mistake set everything else in motion :/

[cuervo72]

How about this one?

Black Family Demands Justice After White Man Shoots Black Boy Twice for Ringing Doorbell of Wrong Home

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

That NM deal is a tough one.

I'm not sure anybody did anything wrong except go to the wrong door. THAT mistake set everything else in motion :/

This.

I disagree with the approach of both sides in general and in this situation beginning with the original mistake. But that is what we as a society have said is the proper approach for both sides to have. Once the original mistake happened, both sides reacted in the exact manner we have told them to react. I put more responsibility on the cops because they made the original mistake and I think it is their responsibility to let the homeowners know what was going on. Obviously, that last part comes with deadly risks to the officers as we have seen but that is the danger that comes with the job. However, they can't just cause the owner that sort of understandable anxiety and walk away like it is no big deal. That makes it look more like they were up to no good.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

First Blood was a great movie. That is all.

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I watched it for the first time a few years ago and I did not expect it to be a portrait about PTSD, abuse of power, and societal response to the Vietnam War. I was more expecting what you get after that, the stuff that gets spoofed all the time

SI

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Because he lives in the United States of America in 2023 and three unknown men knocked on the front door of the house he lives in with his family at 11:30pm unannounced. I don't mean that in a crass way either. Showing up at anyone's house after dark unannounced is risky nowadays.

Kansas City: Accused shooter in shooting of Black teen who went to the wrong house is White man in his 80s | CNN

[Lathum]

Absolutely inexcusable to release him.

He will eventually be charged, the right will claim the DA was influenced by the radical left mob, it will become politicized as fuck, and the jury will look at this 80 year old dude who will have the best defense the NRA can pay for and he will get off. Blacks will riot and be vilified. Rinse and repeat.

[BYU 14]

This incident has really made me think about something that happened in 2018/19 to us.

My doorbell rang at like 1:30. I was groggy and didn't look at the ring cam, got to the door and saw it was police through the peephole. I opened the door rather quickly, because you assume the worst about a family member when police show up at that time of the morning, so yeah I panicked a bit.

One of the officers was half concealed by the wall in my entryway, with his hand on gun, still in holster. He half jerked it out, I guess because I opened the door fast and his partner stepped back and dipped his hands near his holster as well, before relaxing when they saw I was unarmed and in shorts.

Turns out there was a report of gunfire from in front of my house, which I doubt as my neighborhood is really quiet, so possibly fireworks, but it was definitely not me in either case. I did not take my gun with me, thankfully, but what if, in a stupor from being woken at that hour I had? What is I didn't check the peephole and just opened the door with my gun in my hand. Because the reason they were there in the first place was 'reported gunfire' I can see how it could have ended really bad for me.

It is not unreasonable for someone to go to the door with a gun that scenario and depending on what the call was (I don't think I have seen why they were called to that area) things could escalated really quickly. Again, it in no way excuses the fact they did not fully confirm the address, that's negligent, but if they were there for a potentially dangerous person, it would explain why they were so quick to fire.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Absolutely inexcusable to release him.

He will eventually be charged, the right will claim the DA was influenced by the radical left mob, it will become politicized as fuck, and the jury will look at this 80 year old dude who will have the best defense the NRA can pay for and he will get off. Blacks will riot and be vilified. Rinse and repeat.

Agree with all of this and it is a sad commentary on our country and how we apply justice and who gets the benefit of the system.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Kansas City: Accused shooter in shooting of Black teen who went to the wrong house is White man in his 80s | CNN

I didn't know the kid was still alive. Thank God for that at least.

[RainMaker]

I'd be more fearful of a stranger ringing my doorbell during the day then the middle of the night. I assume if someone wants to do harm to me at night, they aren't ringing the doorbell. During the day it's at least a rouse to get into the house without alerting the neighbors.

[GrantDawg]

From the article: "Asked whether the shooting may have been racially motivated, the police chief said, “the information that we have now, it does not say that that is racially motivated. That’s still an active investigation. But as a chief of police, I do recognize the racial components of this case.”

I don't really know how you can prove "racial motivation" even though it is most likely that race of the kid was why the guy shot him. Can we definitively prove this guy wouldn't have shot a white teenage boy that knocked at his door late at night? No. He could be afraid of teenagers in general. Unless that man says it out loud, how do you prove that beyond a reasonable doubt?

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'd be more fearful of a stranger ringing my doorbell during the day then the middle of the night. I assume if someone wants to do harm to me at night, they aren't ringing the doorbell. During the day it's at least a rouse to get into the house without alerting the neighbors.

Not me. I get doorbell rings during the day all the time. When someone rings my bell after dark, then I get suspicious. We had the across the street neighbor ring out bell at 9 one night. I didn't answer the door till I talked to him through the camera. He was wearing a hoody and I didn't know who he was.

[GrantDawg]

They are charging the old man with two felony accounts. The DA said there is a racial element to this without commenting further. Following my previous post, I would have to guess the old man's statement was he was afraid because he was black.

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[RainMaker]

It could also be communication before or after the shooting. The guy in Texas who murdered a protestor had texts talking about how he was going to go and murder a protestor.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It could also be communication before or after the shooting. The guy in Texas who murdered a protestor had texts talking about how he was going to go and murder a protestor.

Yet he is going to be pardoned.

[GrantDawg]

Another one:
Upstate NY woman fatally shot after turning down wrong driveway https://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...ouu-story.html

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[Lathum]

It's almost as if more guns isn't the solution...

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Another one:
Upstate NY woman fatally shot after turning down wrong driveway Upstate NY woman, 20, fatally shot after turning down wrong driveway – New York Daily News

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Good lord.

[GrantDawg]

These old guys sit and watch Fox News all day and are convinced "they" are going to come and get them at any time. Just shoot first to be safe.

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[Lathum]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

These old guys sit and watch Fox News all day and are convinced "they" are going to come and get them at any time. Just shoot first to be safe.

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Literally my exact thought. Can almost guarantee every one of these guys binge watches FOX or similar

[GrantDawg]

Laws always fascinates me. The old man in Missouri is being charged with first degree assault. Why not attempted murder you ask? Because there is no attempted murder charge in Missouri. First degree assault is the equivalent.

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[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Laws always fascinates me. The old man in Missouri is being charged with first degree assault. Why not attempted murder you ask? Because there is no attempted murder charge in Missouri. First degree assault is the equivalent.

As you might imagine, this is a semi-regular discussion between me & Will. There's all manner of state by state quirks like that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Just shoot first to be safe.

I'm reminded of some sage wisdom I learned at a very early age.

"Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six"

[GrantDawg]

Was that the same Sage that said, "It is better a thousand innocent men are imprisoned than one guilty man is set free?"

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