POTUS 2024 - Harris vs Trump - General Election Discussion

[Passacaglia]

Stupid (but honest) question - if you don't determine citizenship based on birth, how do you determine it?

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I too would be upset and lash out if I spent the past year being wrong and had to watch the party I unconditionally support eat shit in historic fashion.

Dude, you talk more shit and know so little about me, even after 20+ years here. You listen so little you think you have it all solved. You run around here like Chicken Fucking Little year after year. That one time you can act like your right about something you shit all over everyone just to boost your own ego. Rinse and repeat.

I'm only lashing out at your incredible asshattery.

[Edward64]

Wanted to know how the House race is going.

Per NPR at late morning today ...

Here are the House races that haven't been called yet : NPR

Democrats need a net gain of 4 seats to win the majority.

Where things stand in the 2024 electionDemocrats have so far flipped 4 seats and are leading in 1 other of the 10 remaining Republican-held competitive seats.

Republicans have flipped 3 and are leading in 2 of the 10 remaining Democratic-held competitive seats.

If that all holds, Democrats would be +5 and Republicans +5 for a 0 net gain for either party.

Doesn't sound like the Dems will net +4, so all GOP for next 2 years.

That would mean, Republicans would keep the House with a 4-seat majority, which is their current margin.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I too would be upset and lash out if I spent the past year being wrong and had to watch the party I unconditionally support eat shit in historic fashion.

OK. So why have you been lashing out for the past 4 years?

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Almost nobody would actually take 100 years ago over today if you really gave them a choice and they fully understood it. The differences in available technology, in convenience, in medical advances ... I'd be dead already if I lived 100 years ago and so would many others.

I feel you're missing the point of the modern GOP. They want to return white men* (and women, to a lesser extent) to the position of strength they held 100-200 years ago, but with all the modern conveniences. And it looks like they'll do it.

As an middle/upper class white man I guess I should be looking forward to it, since my attempts to vote my conscience against my benefits has been so handily rebuffed by those who would be assisted by those benefits.

*mainly white men of means, but a rising tide raises all (white) boats.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I feel you're missing the point of the modern GOP. They want to return white men* (and women, to a lesser extent) to the position of strength they held 100-200 years ago, but with all the modern conveniences. And it looks like they'll do it.

I don't agree. I think there are elements of truth here, but it's far overstated. It's also a conversation that's been had many times on this board, and not one that is beneficial for me to dive into again.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Stupid (but honest) question - if you don't determine citizenship based on birth, how do you determine it?

I would imagine the citizenship status of the parents.

Birthright citizenship is protected by the 14th Amendment, as such:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

I would imagine the primary goal here is to make it so a child born in the United States to two (or even one) undocumented parents is not automatically a US citizen (i.e. "anchor baby").

It's not unheard of, many European countries require one of the parents to be a citizen: Jus soli - Wikipedia

I'd like to see how they'll get enough states to repeal the amendment, although if they did, it would also get rid of that pesky "can't run for federal office if convicted of insurrection" clause in the same Amendment.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

OK. So why have you been lashing out for the past 4 years?

Because it's insane to me that the party would call Trump an existential threat to the country and do jack fucking shit for 4 years. DOJ sat on its ass for years until it was too late. No real life-changing bills passed to improve the lives of people. No effort to build up a strong candidate who could win in 2024. And absolutely no party platform outside of orange man bad.

Trump runs as an anti-establishment candidate and Democrats have yet to understand that. His support isn't all just hillbilly racists, it's people who the system has failed for decades. People who can't buy a home for their family, are paying student loans off into their 40's, and are living paycheck to paycheck at best.

It's why all the January 6th and democracy stuff didn't hit home with voters. Those were attacks on the system. They don't want the system to be protected, they want it broken. They don't want the Clintons and Cheneys, they want fresh faces not associated with the establishment like Dana White, Joe Rogan, and Elon.

Neoliberalism died in 2016. The Democratic Party refuses to accept that.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I feel you're missing the point of the modern GOP. They want to return white men* (and women, to a lesser extent) to the position of strength they held 100-200 years ago, but with all the modern conveniences. And it looks like they'll do it.

Worth noting that the GOP voter base continues to get more diverse with each election while the Democrats continue to get whiter.

Sure there's some racial components behind it but it also brings back a time where you could buy a home on a median salary, attend college without entering a lifetime of debt, and actually have something in the bank for down times.

[Mota]

Well Trump is already showing you who he is, he is going to ban transgenders day 1.

I do agree with banning biological men from competitive women's sports, but this is going to go well beyond this, and the message it sends will almost certainly get Trump cult worshippers to start doing nasty things to them.

[RainMaker]

Just a moment...

[Brian Swartz]

I have zero respect for people (this is why Pelosi's interview aggravated me) who come out and say that knew what to do precisely as soon as it's too late. It's just like the people who talk about how terrible Trump is after they left his administration. Every single person in the 'I warned them and they didn't listen' camp has no credibility. Either stand up and be counted when it matters, or sit down and shut up.

.02

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Lathum

The GOP absolutely wants to roll the clock back to when white men had all the power. They want to bring back things like no fault divorce, rolling back Roe, attacks on education, etc..

It amazes me any woman or person of color could vote for them.

The horrific attacks are already starting with that text message about plantations and people like Nick Fuentes screaming "your body my choice"

We are in for a dark period

To be fair, you have never left that dark period even when Biden was in office or Obama or even Clinton. And CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, LA Times, NY Times, AP, Reuters, and the good ole NPR will never allow you to leave. Welcome to the Hotel Propaganda.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I have zero respect for people (this is why Pelosi's interview aggravated me) who come out and say that knew what to do precisely as soon as it's too late. It's just like the people who talk about how terrible Trump is after they left his administration. Every single person in the 'I warned them and they didn't listen' camp has no credibility. Either stand up and be counted when it matters, or sit down and shut up.

.02

Stand up, be counted, and be fired. Most people don't want to do that. They're willing to put up with some shit as long as they're on the winning side.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Dutch

To be fair, you have never left that dark period even when Biden was in office or Obama or even Clinton. And CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, LA Times, NY Times, AP, Reuters, and the good ole NPR will never allow you to leave. Welcome to the Hotel Propaganda.

it's not propaganda if it is literally the words out of peoples mouths...A guy Trump had lunch with literally said to his large platform your body my choice.

[JPhillips]

Elon endorsed a statement that only Alpha males can really think independently.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Lathum

it's not propaganda if it is literally the words out of peoples mouths...A guy Trump had lunch with literally said to his large platform your body my choice.

It’s not propaganda if one speaks on one’s own behalf. He’s one dude with one opinion. Counter it with your own. That’s how it should work.

It is propaganda if the people that work at those mass media outlets and corporations are not allowing their employees their right to freedom of speech. If the companies have a policy where they cannot do that, then they certainly should not be forcing, coercing, or encouraging any of them to speak on the company’s behalf. That’s totalitarianism in practice and that is the true evil
upon our core values of the 1st Ammendment.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Dutch

It’s not propaganda if one speaks on one’s own behalf. He’s one dude with one opinion. Counter it with your own. That’s how it should work.

It is propaganda if the people that work at those mass media outlets and corporations are not allowing their employees their right to freedom of speech. If the companies have a policy where they cannot do that, then they certainly should not be forcing, coercing, or encouraging any of them to speak on the company’s behalf. That’s totalitarianism in practice and that is the true evil
upon our core values of the 1st Ammendment.

You realize the guy who you are cheering on has actually filed lawsuits against major media companies and is on record saying he wants to remove the broadcast licenses of media that speaks poorly of him.

So GTFO with your 1A arguments.

[Ksyrup]

I love that business leaders are signalling that they'll pass tariffs onto American consumers and that abruptly altering the supply of workers is going to lead to higher prices for homes, at restaurants, etc.

"We" voted against these things and we're going to get more of it anyway. But at least it wasn't a surprise!

[JPhillips]

Read a CPA talking about tariffs and his argument for them was that sure prices will go up, but wages will also rise.

You know, inflation.

[Lathum]

I have probably mentioned this before but my wife runs 2 companies for Warren Buffett controlled Marmon group.

Wednesday morning an email went out basically detailing how tariffs are going to effect businesses and consumers and it wasn't great.

Amazing anyone would think this was viable.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

You realize the guy who you are cheering on has actually filed lawsuits against major media companies and is on record saying he wants to remove the broadcast licenses of media that speaks poorly of him.

So GTFO with your 1A arguments.

Biden just signed a potential TikTok ban into law. Here’s what happens next | CNN Business

[Vegas Vic]

Fascinating video. I learned that Trump doesn't even type his own tweets, even the ones that are in all caps. I wonder if that blonde is in bed with him at 2 AM to fire off those rage tweets?

[cuervo72]

Eh, TikTok is more a delivery mechanism/utility than a content creator. There’s a fair difference between them and a tv network or newspaper.

[flere-imsaho]

What a group of ghouls.

[JPhillips]

Regardless of party, the social media accounts of the President should be clearly labeled as them or others. Words matter and a staffer shouldn't be able to "be" the President.

[RainMaker]

After the Twitter purchase, a lot of people in national security and in corporate security banned the app from being used on phones due to security concerns. A lot of weird foreign actors involved in the group and it's probably just a matter of him not having it on his phone anymore like he used to.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I would imagine the citizenship status of the parents.

Birthright citizenship is protected by the 14th Amendment, as such:



I would imagine the primary goal here is to make it so a child born in the United States to two (or even one) undocumented parents is not automatically a US citizen (i.e. "anchor baby").

It's not unheard of, many European countries require one of the parents to be a citizen: Jus soli - Wikipedia

I'd like to see how they'll get enough states to repeal the amendment, although if they did, it would also get rid of that pesky "can't run for federal office if convicted of insurrection" clause in the same Amendment.

Depending on how this is done, my wife could conceivably lose her citizenship even though she's been here her entire life. She's half Japanese and her dad was on temporary status when she was born. Her dad has been a citizen here for about 20 years and her grandparents gave up their Japanese citizenship in 2016 out of fear of something like this happening. Them giving up their citizenship was a huge deal for several reasons. The biggest impacting them currently is that her grandfather had to give up his Japanese retirement. He was "selected" to come over in the mid 80s for what was effectively semi-permanent Christian missionary work.

Her mom is a native US citizen so she should be ok. There are a ton of details I don't know because it's such a touchy subject but my wife did make the comment a couple days ago that, depending on how they try to eliminate birthright citizenship, it could have an impact on us.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I have probably mentioned this before but my wife runs 2 companies for Warren Buffett controlled Marmon group.

Wednesday morning an email went out basically detailing how tariffs are going to effect businesses and consumers and it wasn't great.

Amazing anyone would think this was viable.

Well, hold on a minute, if the U.S. imposed a 10% tariff on European vehicles (as opposed to the current 2.5%). That would mean VW, BMW, Mercedes, etc would need to raise their prices in the U.S. to match that increased import tax.

One of two things would happen,

1.)
People would buy more American cars, which would need more factories (good for the U.S. worker).

or

2.)
Europe, having its strong sellers presence taking a hit, could negotiate a 2.5% tariff on U.S. cars being sold in Europe (it’s currently 10%). Good for the American consumer.

Either way, we win something.

Trump has made it very clear that tariffs are not a global tariff but industry based decisions to help the American Worker or Consumer.

That’s just one example, but any tariffs that are lopsided (Asia/China come to mind) should and will be reviewed and negotiated for a better deal for us. That seems pretty obvious at this point.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Trump has made it very clear that tariffs are not a global tariff but industry based decisions to help the American Worker or Consumer.

This is not true. Trump has called for a blanket 10% or 20% tariff on all imported goods and a 60% tariff on goods from China. Who knows what he'll actually do, but he's calling for blanket tariffs.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Lathum

You realize the guy who you are cheering on has actually filed lawsuits against major media companies and is on record saying he wants to remove the broadcast licenses of media that speaks poorly of him.

So GTFO with your 1A arguments.

It’s not my 1A argument, the last election should indicate to you—it’s Americas argument.

You can believe what you want, you can get mad at me if that helps, but the MSM needs to read the room. Elon Musk and X are dominating the MSM right now because the MSM simply isn’t trusted anymore. The MSM basically got bent over the table where the ratings are generated and they don’t know what to do. There current status is … status quo (oh, and—let’s shut down X so we can somehow win the next election).

I really had no idea the positive impact of Americans from all over the country having conversations about the news and 24/7 instantaneous rebuttals of any news reporting that was full of shit would have such a huge impact on the voters. Remember, the previous election, Twitter was run by a tool the same way ABC, NBC, and CBS are run. Now it’s Elon Musk who opened the communications to ALL people. You can’t deny the results.

That’s the 1A I’m talking about.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This is not true. Trump has called for a blanket 10% or 20% tariff on all imported goods and a 60% tariff on goods from China. Who knows what he'll actually do, but he's calling for blanket tariffs.

Trump imposed tariffs of 7.5% to 25% on goods coming from China when he was President. China responded by increasing their own tariffs.

The end result because capitalism > communism, is their own people took that right in the shorts (Higher cost for goods hits harder when $10,000 annual for majority of the workers in China is about the average). It forced the Chinese government to implement subsidies to a billion Chinese workers. That’s a massive drain on their coffers.

If Trump goes after the Chinese lopsided trade deals again and I think that’s pretty obvious that he will, they won’t have as much wiggle room to refuse to negotiate this time.

[JPhillips]

OK, but he's still saying he'll impose universal tariffs. He has not said what you claim.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Dutch

It’s not my 1A argument, the last election should indicate to you—it’s Americas argument.

You can believe what you want, you can get mad at me if that helps, but the MSM needs to read the room. Elon Musk and X are dominating the MSM right now because the MSM simply isn’t trusted anymore. The MSM basically got bent over the table where the ratings are generated and they don’t know what to do. There current status is … status quo (oh, and—let’s shut down X so we can somehow win the next election).

I really had no idea the positive impact of Americans from all over the country having conversations about the news and 24/7 instantaneous rebuttals of any news reporting that was full of shit would have such a huge impact on the voters. Remember, the previous election, Twitter was run by a tool the same way ABC, NBC, and CBS are run. Now it’s Elon Musk who opened the communications to ALL people. You can’t deny the results.

That’s the 1A I’m talking about.

Twitter isn't as important as Musk would have you believe. The video services are reaching more total people and more low-information voters. Most of Twitter's users are plugged in and not persuadable. Youtube and Tik Tok are reaching millions of non-voters and millions more persuadable voters.

[RainMaker]

The importance of Twitter is definitely overstated but there are so many outlets for news and information that the point still stands. YouTube, Twitch, TikTok, Facebook, etc. MSM has torched their reputation over the past 20 years and don't appear to be making any efforts of slowing that down.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Dutch

1.)
People would buy more American cars, which would need more factories (good for the U.S. worker).

How is it good for the U.S. worker? Do you think the car companies are going to start passing along the additional profits down to employees out of the goodness of their heart? Are we bringing trickle down economics back?

What it does do is hurt American consumers. Tariffs are why we don't have a cheap EV in the states. Eliminating competition just means car companies don't have to produce a better product and there is no real incentive to keep prices down or innovate.

Originally Posted by Dutch

Trump has made it very clear that tariffs are not a global tariff but industry based decisions to help the American Worker or Consumer.

Yeah, donate a bunch of money to my campaign and I'll ban your competitors. This is just corporate welfare and crony capitalism. Nothing more.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Trump has made it very clear that tariffs are not a global tariff but industry based decisions to help the American Worker or Consumer.

I agree with JPhillips. Trump has stated similar and threatened worse. I've not read him say it was "industry based" (but maybe MSM has been biasedly reporting it?).

Though Trump inherits a strong economy and low inflation, he’s proposed a 10 to 20 percent tariff on all imports, and a 60 percent tariff on all imports from China.

I think its blustering to base (and it worked) and a negotiating position. And there is no doubt some countries will accede to whatever he wants with this bullying.

Personally, I do believe there are some specific segments, technologies and countries (China dumping) that we need impose tariffs. But not the general "all imports", not most lower value/strategic things like textiles, combustion engine autos, consumer electronics etc. I'd say let much of that business go nearshore like south of the border (help those economies, which should theoretically lessen illegal immigration).

Originally Posted by Dutch

Trump imposed tariffs of 7.5% to 25% on goods coming from China when he was President. China responded by increasing their own tariffs.
:
If Trump goes after the Chinese lopsided trade deals again and I think that’s pretty obvious that he will, they won’t have as much wiggle room to refuse to negotiate this time.

Yes, this is what I see going forward. China is definitely his target. He'll be more selective with others. It won't be his blustering "all imports". Not sure I agree that China won't have more room to negotiate, seems like Russia and BRICS will make inroads meaning less dependence on US. But that's okay, there has been and will continue to be a lower level trade war and it will likely increase in intensity with Trump.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Depending on how this is done, my wife could conceivably lose her citizenship even though she's been here her entire life. She's half Japanese and her dad was on temporary status when she was born. Her dad has been a citizen here for about 20 years and her grandparents gave up their Japanese citizenship in 2016 out of fear of something like this happening. Them giving up their citizenship was a huge deal for several reasons. The biggest impacting them currently is that her grandfather had to give up his Japanese retirement. He was "selected" to come over in the mid 80s for what was effectively semi-permanent Christian missionary work.

Her mom is a native US citizen so she should be ok. There are a ton of details I don't know because it's such a touchy subject but my wife did make the comment a couple days ago that, depending on how they try to eliminate birthright citizenship, it could have an impact on us.

Interesting story, thanks for sharing.

From what I've read on the birthright proposal, she should be okay. Below was introduced by Lindsey Graham this past Sep titled "S. 5223: Birthright Citizenship Act of 2024". I've read other MSM articles similar re: the bolded section

Just a moment...

“(b) Definition.—Acknowledging the Citizenship Clause in section 1 of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, a person born in the United States shall be considered ‘subject to the jurisdiction’ of the United States for purposes of subsection (a)(1) if the person is born in the United States of parents, one of whom is—

“(1) a citizen or national of the United States;

“(2) an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States whose residence is in the United States; or

“(3) an alien performing active service in the Armed Forces (as defined in section 101 of title 10, United States Code).”.

For all practical purposes, there will need to be some sort of grandfather clause like below in the bill.

(b) Applicability.—The amendment made by subsection (a)(3) may not be construed to affect the citizenship or nationality status of any person born before the date of the enactment of this Act.

re: losing Japanese retirement (and equivalent US social security), never thought of that. Checked to see what would happen if one gave up US citizenship ...

No, generally you do not lose your Social Security benefits if you give up your US citizenship; you can still receive them if you qualify based on your previous work history, although the process may become more complex depending on where you reside after renouncing citizenship and whether the US has a "totalization agreement" with that country.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Trump imposed tariffs of 7.5% to 25% on goods coming from China when he was President. China responded by increasing their own tariffs.

The end result because capitalism > communism, is their own people took that right in the shorts (Higher cost for goods hits harder when $10,000 annual for majority of the workers in China is about the average). It forced the Chinese government to implement subsidies to a billion Chinese workers. That’s a massive drain on their coffers.

If Trump goes after the Chinese lopsided trade deals again and I think that’s pretty obvious that he will, they won’t have as much wiggle room to refuse to negotiate this time.

Should I listen to 23 Nobel prized winning economists or.....

checks notes

random guy on internet....

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Trump has made it very clear that tariffs are not a global tariff but industry based decisions to help the American Worker or Consumer.

.

He literally said he was going to do a blanket tariff. Maybe you should pay some attention to the MSM you demonize so much because you clearly aren't getting all the info you should be.

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/04/trum...hina%20tariffs.

Beyond China, the former president has said he would impose a blanket 10% tariff on all U.S. imports, despite broad criticism over how that could hurt consumers.
Former UN ambassador Nikki Haley, Trump’s sole remaining presidential challenger, criticized that policy proposal for the impacts it would have on American pocketbooks.

“What Donald Trump’s about to do, is he’s going to raise every household’s expenses by $2,600 a year,” said Haley in a January interview on CNBC’s “Squawk Box,” referencing data from the fiscally conservative National Taxpayers Union.

[Lathum]

Latinos about to get their faces eaten

Trump appoints Project 2025 contributor Tom Homan as his “Border Czar.”

Homan was responsible for the Trump administration’s family separation policy and wants to deport children born in the United States. pic.twitter.com/w5Ifihw21T

— PatriotTakes 🇺🇸 (@patriottakes) November 11, 2024

[Ksyrup]

"I don't know what Project 2025 is."

[Brian Swartz]

Facts are stubborn things.

[JPhillips]

Trump is the first politician in my lifetime who benefits from everyone thinking he lies about everything. It's his superpower.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Trump is the first politician in my lifetime who benefits from everyone thinking he lies about everything. It's his superpower.

It’s not about what he says or does it’s about what he REALLY means. What he really means is subjective and generally is what his individual supporter believes is right and/or should be done.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Latinos about to get their faces eaten

Trump appoints Project 2025 contributor Tom Homan as his “Border Czar.”

Homan was responsible for the Trump administration’s family separation policy and wants to deport children born in the United States. pic.twitter.com/w5Ifihw21T

— PatriotTakes 🇺🇸 (@patriottakes) November 11, 2024

It does have to feel good that you can now go back to opposing this stuff again.

Biden Is Still Separating Immigrant Kids From Their Families - The Texas Observer

[Lathum]

Remind me again about that time Biden said he wants to end birthright citizenship and deport actual US citizens.

[JPhillips]

I don't think any campaign tactics are going to matter to the guy who's willing to vote for Hitler.

This quote is absolutely insane. pic.twitter.com/OqaFOj2rct

— Philly’s Original Harden (@KHJ_Esq) November 11, 2024

[RainMaker]

Those Obama numbes.

Democrats had the worst performance with the youth vote since John Kerry in 2004.

Harris: +12
Biden: +24
Clinton: +19
Obama: +23
Obama: +34
Kerry: +9

— Cyrus Beschloss (@cyrusbeschloss) November 11, 2024

[bhlloy]

Hitler, who famously kept his country successfully out of any disastrous wars.

I don’t think people are more stupid than they’ve been for the last hundred years, but I do think social media gives us a unique insight into things that previously would have been laughed off as just another dumb thing that Joe said around the table at the bar after a few too many beers.

[RainMaker]

One of the great "what ifs" of the election would be how things would have turned out if Biden didn't bailout Silicon Valley Bank. All those tech and crypto bros had their money there and got saved only to use it to heavily fund Republicans in the election. One of the biggest self owns from a guy known for them.