Obama versus McCain (versus the rest)

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

How little do things change over the years? I'm guessing that Biden and Palin could sub in the names of this year's candidates and use these same opening statements from 32 years ago for the most part....................

The First VP Debate: Dole-Mondale, 10-15-76

MR. DOLE: Thank you very much. First, I wish to thank the League of Women Voters, and this is a great privilege and honor for me. I also wanna thank my many friends in Russell, Kansas, for that big long telegram I received today. I think tonight may be sort of a fun evening. It's a very important evening; it's a very historic evening. But I've known ah my counterpart for some time, and we've been friends and we're - we'll be friends when this debate is over and we'll be friends when the election is over and he'll still be in the Senate. (laughter) And I think first of all I should make it very clear that I'm most proud to be on the ticket with President Ford. I've known President Ford for sixteen years - sixteen years. It's a long time. He's known me for that long. I know him to be a man of compassion and competence. He has that confidence and he projects that leadership that America needs and that you need right now. Now, I don't know much about uh - Governor Carter. I've tried to find out. I know he's very ambitious. I know he wants to be president. He's been running for three years. But I know he said uh - at least one thing - that he does agree with my opponent, my friend, uh - Walter Mondale, probably the most liberal senator in the United States Senate. And that's really what this debate's all about. If by some uh - tragic circumstance one of us should become president of the United States, where do we stand on the issues? I would just say in a very uh - summary way that I have a great deal of faith in you, the American people. I'm concerned about farmers and housewives and young people and professional people, working men and women. I think we can find our solutions working together. My opponent has a record of voting for ever- every inflationary spending program except in defense, where he votes for every cut. And we'll explore that as this debate goes on.

MR. MONDALE: I believe that most Americans would agree on the problems that this country faces and that the next - and which the next administration must solve. They include the need once again for an economy that works. The economy today is in very, very bad shape - the highest unemployment since the Great Depression, 50 percent higher than when Mr. Ford took office; raging inflation, with the latest uh - wholesale price indexes once again su- raising the specter of double-digit inflation. The purchasing power of the average American has slipped so much that it is now the equivalent of the purchasing power in 1965. It is not getting better. It is getting worse. All the leading indicators now point downward, and stock investors are now losing confidence and over $50 billion of value has disappeared from the stock market in less than a month. We need a government that works, and we need a government that cares, and once again we have to get back to work on education, on health, on housing, on the environment, on energy; and we need a foreign policy that once again reflects the values and the beliefs of the American people. This will take leadership, and we need leadership, too. The Republican administration, the Republican party has had eight years to solve these problems. All of them have gotten worse. The Republican ticket does not offer new plans for their solution but is engaged in a frantic effort to defend the past. This nation desperately needs new leadership. The Carter-Mondale ticket would offer a new generation of leadership dedicated to solu- to solving the problems which I have listed, and that is the basis of our appeal.

[sterlingice]

That's great, MBBF

SI

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

It gives me no more of a warm feeling to know that a person with just as limited experience may be president right off the bat rather than VP. As Joe Biden said, he's "well-spoken". His speaking skills are the only difference at this point.

From Wiki:

Barack Obama
Member of the Illinois Senate
from the 13th district
In office
January 8, 1997 – November 4, 2004

Junior Senator
from Illinois
Incumbent
Assumed office
January 4, 2005

Sarah Palin
11th Governor of Alaska
Incumbent
Assumed office
December 4, 2006

I have to disagree with them having equally limited experience at a level that counts. Sorry, but, Mayor of a town, with only about 5,500 people, and a city council member are hardly in the same league as a state senator and U.S. senator.

Lots of politicians and non politicians are well spoken, so I don't get the point.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

-------------------------------------------
COURIC: (to Biden): What are the Supreme Court decisions you disagree with?
BIDEN: You know, I'm the guy who wrote the Violence Against Women act. And I said that every woman in America, if they are beaten and abused by a man, should be able to take that person to court. Meaning you should be able to go to federal court and sue in federal court the man who abused you if you can prove that abuse. But they said no that a woman, there's no federal jurisdiction and I held, they acknowledged, I held about 1,000 hours of hearings proving that there's an effect in interstate commerce. Women who are abused and beaten and beaten are women who are not able to be in the work force. And the Supreme Court said there is an impact on commerce but this is federalizing a private crime and we're not going to allow it. I think the Supreme Court was wrong about that decision.
---------------------------------------------

Seems to me that's a Supreme Court decision right there. Now given, it's a decision not to hear a case versus a ruling on a case, but it's also an issue that he was very involved with so that's okay by me. Particularly because in large part, a decision by the Supreme Court to refuse to hear a case is in itself a judgement on the case (even if it's for statutory reasons).

Actually, Biden is talking about a case they heard. The case was United States v. Morrison and a woman who was raped tried to sue her attackers under the Violence against Women Act. SCOTUS said that Congress did not have the authority under the commerce clause or the 14th amendment to pass that law. It's one of the most important recent cases that deals with federalism and gives a clear understanding of the type of justices Biden would likely appoint if he was in that position.

What also impresses me is that he understands why the case was overruled and didn't try to demagogue it by saying something like, "The Supreme Court obviously didn't care about violence against women."

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I have to disagree with them having equally limited experience at a level that counts. Sorry, but, Mayor of a town, with only about 5,500 people, and a city council member are hardly in the same league as a state senator and U.S. senator.

Lots of politicians and non politicians are well spoken, so I don't get the point.

1. Governor and U.S. senator are pretty similar in stature as far as I'm concern. Certainly, no one comes even close to saying that Obama or Palin have the experience necessary for President. If they do, they're likely partisan at best.

2. I'm sorry. I should have said articulate instead of well-spoken........

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,"

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Actually, Biden is talking about a case they heard. The case was United States v. Morrison and a woman who was raped tried to sue her attackers under the Violence against Women Act. SCOTUS said that Congress did not have the authority under the commerce clause or the 14th amendment to pass that law. It's one of the most important recent cases that deals with federalism and gives a clear understanding of the type of justices Biden would likely appoint if he was in that position.

What also impresses me is that he understands why the case was overruled and didn't try to demagogue it by saying something like, "The Supreme Court obviously didn't care about violence against women."

+1 for you. Didn't realize they'd actually heard the case - the way he made it sound was like they refused to hear it on the grounds they didn't have jurisdiction. Nice though.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

1. Governor and U.S. senator are pretty similar in stature as far as I'm concern. Certainly, no one comes even close to saying that Obama or Palin have the experience necessary for President. If they do, they're likely partisan at best.

2. I'm sorry. I should have said articulate instead of well-spoken........

I'll take Obama's 10 plus years as a state senator and US senator over Palin's almost 2 years as governor. Obama has a viable person in Biden, that if Obama could not finish his term, Biden would be a competent replacement. Palin however...I wouldn't trust her to be able to take over a pie eating contest.

I guess I just don't see the problem with being articulate or well spoken. People have a problem with how Bush talks and say he sounds stupid. So apparently, being able to form coherent sentences and not sound like an idiot at that level is important to people.

Is the Obama/Biden ticket the perfect ticket in my eyes? Nope. The problem is, the McCain/Palin ticket is far far less perfect with Palin on there.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

1. Governor and U.S. senator are pretty similar in stature as far as I'm concern. Certainly, no one comes even close to saying that Obama or Palin have the experience necessary for President. If they do, they're likely partisan at best.

What experience is necessary to be President?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

What experience is necessary to be President?

If we knew the exact measure, this thread would be 1 1/2 pages long.

I'm of the opinion that 'experience' is highly overrated, fully knowing that my stance in that instance helps out the candidate I do not favor. I prefer common sense when selecting a candidate. My personal opinion is that McCain is a lot more of a straight shooter than Obama and is opposed to higher taxes and spending, which is much more in line with my thinking than Obama. I also don't mind a president with a mean streak, so that doesn't bother me with McCain nearly as much as it does others.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

I don't see your logic behind this. One of the big points of recent GOP dogma has been railing against activist judges.

Couldn't this have been a fairly simple response for her, one that came to mind almost immediately for me - someone who is not running on the same ticket as this man?

McCain: Guantanamo Ruling One of the 'Worst Decisions' in History - FOXNews.com Elections

Thanks for reminding me of his comments on that. I think a may have to start actually actively campaigning against him.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

McCain pulls out of Michigan. I guess the cancellation of the primary there wasn't enough.

That's a pretty significant event. We're a long way from the days with the common wisdom that whoever won 2 of MI, PA & OH won this election....

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Obama has a viable person in Biden, that if Obama could not finish his term, Biden would be a competent replacement.

I'm trying to follow your logic here. What if Obama can finish his term? That's where the top of the Democratic ticket is starting from.

[flere-imsaho]

FiveThirtyEight.com's current state of the race (when he's not fighting with RCP - see the website for more):

To break down the math, we project all Kerry states save New Hampshire outside of five points, so that’s 252 minus 4, or 248. Then add Iowa (7 EV), New Mexico (5 EV) and Colorado (9 EV), and Obama hits 269. As Nate has explained, that would be as good as an Obama win. In fact, if we put the line at six points, we’d get the same result. Obama projects to win Colorado by 6.1%

As of this morning before today's polls update, we project Obama victories in Virginia (4.4%), New Hampshire (3.4%), Ohio (2.4%), Florida (2.4%), and Nevada (2.1%), with Indiana a tie. Give all these states to McCain, it’s 269-269 and an Obama presidency. Allocated by lead, it’s Obama 338, McCain 189, 11 tossup. McCain also projects precarious wins in North Carolina (0.1%) and Missouri (0.4%).

[larrymcg421]

He makes some good points against RCP, but did back down a bit on saying they were deliberately biased. They still should explain why they're randomly including some polls (like the ARG polls) after excluding them for so long.

As for a 269-269 tie, I wonder what would happen if McCain won the popular vote but there was a tie in the electoral college. Now that would be an interesting situation.

[larrymcg421]

But I can already see the arguments being made by the Republicans. They'll say that the electoral vote is most important, but when it is tied, why not go to the popular vote.

Of course, the counterargument is that the Constitution set up rules for just this scenario and specified that it be decided by the House.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

I'm trying to follow your logic here. What if Obama can finish his term? That's where the top of the Democratic ticket is starting from.

The problems that Palin brings to the table if McCain is elected and dies in office or has a stroke and can't fulfill his duties as President is what I have a severe problem with.

The logic is picking either the Douche or the Shit Sandwich. Douche being Obama/Biden, Shit Sandwich being McCain/Palin. Picking the lesser of two evils. Damned if you do, damned if you don't and a host of other cliches that I can't think of at the moment.

Right now, the Douche is looking a lot better than the Shit Sandwich.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonath...n.html?showall

McCain pulls out of Michigan. I guess the cancellation of the primary there wasn't enough.

Awesome.

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

If we knew the exact measure, this thread would be 1 1/2 pages long.

We DO know the exact measure and it's really fucking short.

"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States."

I don't see anything about experience.

[Galaril]

Wow, I hadn't seen the stuff with Katie Couric and Palin specifically about what magazines she has read or court cases stuff and I can only say Holy fuck! As an american that is really fucked up. If McCain get's elected and he croaks and she takes over I am moving my family to Canada.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

But I can already see the arguments being made by the Republicans. They'll say that the electoral vote is most important, but when it is tied, why not go to the popular vote.

Of course, the counterargument is that the Constitution set up rules for just this scenario and specified that it be decided by the House.

I don't even think that one is an argument (except in theory). There are pretty clear rules on what happens in the event of a tie, and while the losing side doesn't have to like them & could bitch until some very warm places became very cold, it would very much have to live with them barring the discovery of some loophole I've never heard of.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

The problems that Palin brings to the table if McCain is elected and dies in office or has a stroke and can't fulfill his duties as President is what I have a severe problem with.

The logic is picking either the Douche or the Shit Sandwich. Douche being Obama/Biden, Shit Sandwich being McCain/Palin. Picking the lesser of two evils. Damned if you do, damned if you don't and a host of other cliches that I can't think of at the moment.

Right now, the Douche is looking a lot better than the Shit Sandwich.

That's Giant Douche and Turd Sandwich, thank you very much

SI

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

We DO know the exact measure and it's really fucking short.

"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States."

I don't see anything about experience.

I guess there's "life experience" in there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

This might have already been mentioned up the thread somewhere but if so I failed to notice it ... reports now say that McCain has pulled advertising & staff out of Michigan, effectively conceding it to Obama.

He's reportedly investigating opening a new front in Maine, as well as reallocating the Michigan resources to other states including Florida.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

He's reportedly investigating opening a new front in Maine, as well as reallocating the Michigan resources to other states including Florida.

I fail to see the point of working more in Maine. Maine splits its EVs by district. He'll win the rural 2nd district and I don't see how he wins the suburban (Maine has no real urban area) 1st district.

And it's 4 EVs.

[timmynausea]

I doubt McCain's people expected to have to defend North Carolina and Virginia the way they have. With Obama pulling away in both Michigan and Pennsylvania, McCain almost had to pick one or the other to focus on as his last stand in terms of actually flipping a major Kerry state.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I fail to see the point of working more in Maine. Maine splits its EVs by district. He'll win the rural 2nd district and I don't see how he wins the suburban (Maine has no real urban area) 1st district.
And it's 4 EVs.

Tell McCain, I just work here

[JPhillips]

McCain really needs to focus on a Bush States plan IMO. I don't think he's got a pickup opportunity worth spending resources on. He'll lose IA and NM, but if he holds everything else he can still win. Without a major turning point winning is a longshot at this point, but IMO defense is his best option.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Tell McCain, I just work here

He won't return my calls....

[flere-imsaho]

Joe Biden's debate prep revealed!

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

What experience is necessary to be President?

Does executive experience make a good president? The results! « Ramblings of a pseudo intellectual

Clearly it is a blogger, not a news source, but it is an interesting discussion.

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

If we knew the exact measure, this thread would be 1 1/2 pages long.

I'm of the opinion that 'experience' is highly overrated, fully knowing that my stance in that instance helps out the candidate I do not favor. I prefer common sense when selecting a candidate. My personal opinion is that McCain is a lot more of a straight shooter than Obama and is opposed to higher taxes and spending, which is much more in line with my thinking than Obama. I also don't mind a president with a mean streak, so that doesn't bother me with McCain nearly as much as it does others.

I am jumping in here late, and sure to get flamed, but... Are these statements true? Do all of McCain's (and Obama's) numbers match up? Can McCain afford to continue the troop surge and cut everyone's taxes? Can Obama afford his social programs and cut taxes for "85% of working families." Do you really care if Obama does not cut taxes for those making over $250,000? Maybe I am buying into the hype of the Obama campaign, but cutting taxes for those making under $250,000 sounds rather reasonable to me.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I fail to see the point of working more in Maine. Maine splits its EVs by district. He'll win the rural 2nd district and I don't see how he wins the suburban (Maine has no real urban area) 1st district.

And it's 4 EVs.

ssssh...if he wants to waste his $$ there who are we to blame him?

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Joe Biden's debate prep revealed!

That is fucking hilarious.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Awesome.

Totally awesome. I now no longer run the risk of having the first thing I hear in the morning a McCain campaign ad. It has happened too often of late. No me gusta.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

That is fucking hilarious.

i laughed. i cried. i wet myself.

[molson]

RE: McCain conceding Michigan.

Why do that publically? I don't get it. I see scaling down, and maybe some blogger will notice, but why in god's name be so official about it and concede a negative headline today?

[Big Fo]

Nate from 538 has some critiques of RCP's methodology. An interesting read.

link

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Nate from 538 has some critiques of RCP's methodology. An interesting read.[/url]

If and when this guy establishes a credible track record of his own in a presidential election, then his criticism of RCP will carry deserved weight. As of now, all this guy has done is to constantly change his weighting and methodology throughout the election cycle. By his own admission, he is an enthusiastic Obama supporter.

At this point in time, given their 2004 performance, RCP is without peer in providing the most accurate electoral college and popular vote projections.

If fivethirtyeight.com outperforms RCP on their final projection this year, then they will rightfully move into the forefront in this relatively uncontested field. We'll have to wait and see what happens with the final projections on election day.

[SirFozzie]

John McCain said Thursday that Barack Obama’s poll numbers are rising as the economy seems to sink "because life isn’t fair.”

I guess this was "What the hell can he say that won't make him look bad", but this seems incredibly whiny.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Galaril

If McCain get's elected and he croaks and she takes over I am moving my family to Canada.

Sorry, we're full.

Remember, every single US celebrity moved here in November 2004.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

John McCain said Thursday that Barack Obama’s poll numbers are rising as the economy seems to sink "because life isn’t fair.”

I guess this was "What the hell can he say that won't make him look bad", but this seems incredibly whiny.

and on an unrelated note...campbell brown? i'd totally hit that

[Mac Howard]

So here we go

[DaddyTorgo]

lol - Palin to Biden: "Nice to meet you. Can I call you Joe?"

LOL

[Galaxy]

What's with the "Can I call you Joe?"?

[Big Fo]

Mac Howard, is the VP debate being shown live in Austrailia or are you watching on the web? Just curious.

[Maple Leafs]

Palin: Hi, nice to meet you.
Biden: Nice to meet you.
Palin: Can I call you "Joe"?
Biden: Go fuck yourself.

Rocky start.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Sorry, we're full.

Remember, every single US celebrity moved here in November 2004.

You mean the ones that said they would, but didn't?

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

You mean the ones that said they would, but didn't?

What? They were so passionate, I just assumed they all kept their word.

[DaddyTorgo]

ML - he didn't say that! no way! I didn't hear that

[DaddyTorgo]

haha - Palin is trying to credit McCain for the bipartisan effort succeeding

-- except it didn't succeed, and his own party has said he was a useless distraction

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

What? They were so passionate, I just assumed they all kept their word.

Susan Sarandon has said she would move to Italy or Canada if McCain wins. So, she's going to move a country (I know Canada has elections coming up) that has conservative (and might I say, more conservative than McCain) governments?