Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Because Brock buried all the full-timers over the last couple years and then gave the rub to a 50-year old who will maybe wrestle a few matches anymore. If I was busting my ass 300 days a year, I'd want that win over Brock. Imagine what it would have done for someone like Rollins or Ambrose.

Come on man. What world can Dean Ambrose or Seth Rollins beat Brock Lesnar in and have the results not a be a cartoon?

They haven't built either up as a tactician. Both are brawlers. You cant have a brawler their size beat a brawler Brock's size. It just gets ridiculous.

I think thats WWE's problem. They dont push styles (not AJ)...think back to UFC 1....Royce Gracie won the whole damn thing at 165 lbs. Why? Because he was a tactician. WWE needs that angle, then it allows for movement. Because a tactician can always be caught and knocked out and it doesnt mean they will be caught next time.

But when its just stand up and slug it out...

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by General Mike

I get it, but why does the turn have to happen in NXT in the near future? Revival should be on the main roster tomorrow. Come in and beat Slater/Rhyno for the title on day one.

I meant Chiampo turning on Gargano. It's been so beautiful watching the subtle hints here and there for months, something that just doesn't happen in modern WWE.

And really, everyone who was on TakeOver should be on the main roster already, but it is what it is.

[Mota]

Well, I just got back from Raw, having been to all 3 Toronto shows. I am exhausted, but my son and I had an amazing weekend.

By far, my favorite show was NXT. The show was more compressed, had more standout moments. The Revival / DIY match was my match of the weekend. In terms of stars, Bobby Roode and Shinsuke Nakamura were crazy over. Why are these guys in the developmental territory?

Survivor Series was next, it was much more of a spectacle overall. The Raw vs. Smackdown match was just a huge spotfest (good thing in this case). Of course we all know the Goldberg / Lesnar match, it was a shock, but something we'll remember.

Raw tonight also was exciting, but those huge number of commercial spots really take the wind out of the crowd. It's hard to stay into it, when you sit around watching TV for more than a third of the show. Still, there were some good moments, the Universal Title match was crazy. I was two rows back of Seth Rollins when he did the dive out of the stands. Couldn't believe it when he climbed up right in front of me and my son. So cool.

I don't think I would ever do back to back to back shows again, it is completely exhausting, but it was definitely an experience that I won't forget, and I got to spend a LOT of time with my 12 year old son, which is ever fleeting because there is about a million cooler things to do than hang around with dad these days.

[CrescentMoonie]

Nakamura beat Joe for the NXT title in Osaka.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Nakamura beat Joe for the NXT title in Osaka.

I kind of figured that was the point to having Joe win the last round anyway.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I kind of figured that was the point to having Joe win the last round anyway.

Could be worse, could be the RAW women's title that changes as often as a Pokemon rotation.

[CrescentMoonie]

Miz has become my favorite heel in WWE.

[RainMaker]

AJ Styles is so good.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Steve Austin discusses his beer drinking antics in the ring.

http://www.australianewstoday.com/wo...t-beer-stunts/

[AlexB]

Scott Hall has put his Christmas tree up, and let's the world know in a very Scott Hall way (NSFW)

WWE legend Scott Hall posts picture of Christmas tree online… and forgets to turn off the PORN on his TV - Mirror Online

[albionmoonlight]

If Scott Hall's healthy enough to be putting up Christmas Trees and watch porn, I call that a win.

[murrayyyyy]

I'm shocked the Express of Rock and Roll is still wrestling.

[Toddzilla]

I watched RoadBlock last night while working with no expectations of anything great. For the most part it could have been Raw, meaning not very good. The ending to the ME between Reigns and Owens was infuriating to say the least.

BUT

I stopped working 10 minutes into the Iron Woman Match and was completely drawn in - what an incredible story Banks and Flair created. THAT was worth the price of the network this month alone.

[Suicane75]

I'm with ya on Charlotte Vs Sasha. It's a very polarizing thing, people seem to HATE it or LOVE it. I've enjoyed every match they've had.

[CrescentMoonie]

Charlotte is the best used star on Raw right now and Sasha might be second. If the top men were booked the way the top two women have been, Raw would actually be watchable.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Charlotte is the best used star on Raw right now and Sasha might be second. If the top men were booked the way the top two women have been, Raw would actually be watchable.

They traded the belt almost every 30 days since July and I can't list #2-5 for the title because they refuse to promote anyone besides these two women. I think they did a better job building up Bliss compared to Charlotte or Sasha. Then again the entire booking of RAW seems to be focused on getting chants over which means Dillinger will be on RAW just so we can hear 10 with every single count.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

They traded the belt almost every 30 days since July and I can't list #2-5 for the title because they refuse to promote anyone besides these two women. I think they did a better job building up Bliss compared to Charlotte or Sasha. Then again the entire booking of RAW seems to be focused on getting chants over which means Dillinger will be on RAW just so we can hear 10 with every single count.

I feel like the women's division on SD is the only real weak point there and they've done a terrible job with both Bliss and Lynch. Charlotte is built up as unbeatable on PPV which should help put over the person they pick to finally beat her there. There's nothing about Lynch or Bliss that matters at all right now, and it's not their fault.

SD is a much better show, but RAW has done the better job with their women.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I'm with ya on Charlotte Vs Sasha. It's a very polarizing thing, people seem to HATE it or LOVE it. I've enjoyed every match they've had.

Glad I'm not alone at least ... in the hate I mean.

I'd rather see Cena v Orton round 50 than ever get those two in the ring together again.

Neither particularly interests me (though I'll give Charlotte credit for having earned some respect as a decent champion), so it's a no-fucks-given affair for me on top of being monotonous.

[murrayyyyy]

Even Big E knows it...

[SirFozzie]

After watching Smackdown and then Talking Smack afterwards.. I've come around on the Miz.

From a workrate standpoint, he's.. ok. CRZ once had a description of something completely average. Something filling but won't make you rave, or really come back.. If a great "workrate" match is a five course meal, the Miz is the pretzels. Filling, basic and not much wiggle room either way.

But from a wrestling heel prospective, Miz seemingly has bottled some of the better elements of Bobby Heenan and Ric Flair and made them a blend unique to him. I mean, you knew from his history he could make you believe his promos when he was playing the smarmy type.. but never quite the "unhinged from reality" type he's doing right now.

Watch The Miz absolutely implode: WWE Talking Smack, Jan. 3, 2017 - YouTube

[CrescentMoonie]

He's a phenomenal worker, he's an average wrestler. He doesn't do 65 versions of a flip, he doesn't do moves so contrived they require his opponent to stand in place for 20 minutes, and he doesn't do moves that are going to shave years off his career. The reason he doesn't do those is he's an actual worker and most today are just wrestlers.

It certainly helps that he's on the better show that is doing the basics right. Raw is a dumpster fire while Smackdown is actually a good wrestling show.

[molson]

And really these days, if you're TOO good a wrestler, you can't be a real heel. So guys like Miz have always been really valuable.

[CrescentMoonie]

I look at Miz, and I think I've mentioned this before, and I see a guy who would have been an exceptional heel in the territory days in 6-9 month runs. He could have done Memphis, Florida, Georgia, Mid Atlantic, Mid South, Dallas, Portland, and then run them through again. Sprinkle in some Japan work and he would have been able to do those runs 4-5 times over the course of his career without ever getting stale.

[murrayyyyy]

Always like Miz as he's the only one who reminds me of heel Lawler. Lawler wasn't a great worker as his best skills were with a mic in his hand or things done from a psychological perspective.

But... here is what worries me about the WWE. I fear he is going to become "Broken" Mike because Vince does childish shit like that. I'd rather have him become insane Edge.

Smackdown has made 5-6 new feuds in two weeks while RAW has made none in the past 4 months. Not hard to figure out why one show seems better than the other. New Day loses the title and goes awe shucks while Miz loses a title (twice) and goes bat shit crazy each time.

[VPI97]

I was fortunate enough to have brought my son to the house show in Atlanta last week where he was able to meet the Miz (and others). From that experience, as well as the match he put on that night (a cage match vs Dolph Ziggler), he's my new favorite. His charisma in person is overwhelming and the match he put on in the ring that night was one of the best I've ever seen in a WWE ring in terms of pure excitement. Some of that was due to his classic heel promo prior to the match, but a lot of it was the match execution itself. As you guys said above, he's not going to wow you with his technical ability, but his ability to make a match "believable" was tremendous. Obviously the same goes to Dolph on that particular night, but the match they put on stole the show.

[CrescentMoonie]

Watching Paul London's character in Lucha Underground, and I'm impressed with the charisma he has. How did nobody tap into that before?

[Suicane75]

Omega Vs Okada from the dome last night was beautiful.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Omega Vs Okada from the dome last night was beautiful.

Dave Meltzer has rated just about every televised wrestling match for the last 30+ years and that's the first one he gave 6 stars. (on a scale of 1-5.)

[Suicane75]

Wow. I just started the New Years Dash show so I won't be listening to the Wednesday Observer show till later, but I'm not surprised it got 5. Would have been more surprised if it hadn't. But 6 is crazy. I honestly can't think of a better match I've seen in forever though. I saw the last two Tanahashi/Okada dome matches and I liked them both, but not more than the Nakamura/Ibushi match from two years ago. That was probably my favorite match of all time before last night and Okada/Omega was just so much better, it's trippy. So yeah, I can see 6 stars.

[murrayyyyy]

How often do they wrestle in NJPW? I can't imagine 2 guys wrestling like that 5 times a week. Highlights of the match below.

[SirFozzie]

They do a couple month tours, but this was their big pay per view event.. their wrestlemania

[Suicane75]

Yeah, their tours aren't as extensive as WWE per se in that they aren't on the road constantly. They also protect people a lot better by featuring tag and 6 man matches a lot where the top guys can take breathers.

They do a lot of tournaments as well, Tag World Grand Prix, Best Of The Super Juniors, New Japan Cup, and the biggie, which is insanely rigorous at time, The G1 Grand Prix.

So no, they they aren't going all out like more than 10-12 times a year.

The thing about that match, as much as the quality of the actual match, was the year long story line of the rise of Omega. The story line was great, and the match exceeded it IMO.

[CrescentMoonie]

And I'll say the match was that great because of the build. Meltzer gives out snowflakes for so much stuff that I have a hard time trusting his opinion. I'm definitely in the Al Snow/Kevin Nash school on workrate being a dirt sheet term that shouldn't matter to the business. That match in front of half the crowd with no buildup isn't nearly as good.

Okada vs Omega is great due to the buildup, especially getting Omega from the goofball wrestling 12-year-old girls to a legit main event option. It also shows just how strong the Bullet Club is everywhere other than WWE.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I saw the last 90 seconds or so sometime in the wee hours this morning.

Was it just me or did the actual (final) finisher appear to land not-quite-clean?

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

And I'll say the match was that great because of the build. Meltzer gives out snowflakes for so much stuff that I have a hard time trusting his opinion. I'm definitely in the Al Snow/Kevin Nash school on workrate being a dirt sheet term that shouldn't matter to the business. That match in front of half the crowd with no buildup isn't nearly as good.

Okada vs Omega is great due to the buildup, especially getting Omega from the goofball wrestling 12-year-old girls to a legit main event option. It also shows just how strong the Bullet Club is everywhere other than WWE.

Eh, he rates matches, it's part of what he does. He's seen so much that to not respect his opinion on stuff is just being contrarian IMO. You can disagree with him, but to discount his overall knowledge and how he applies it is silly. I for the most part can't stand Young Bucks matches, and he usually rates their stuff highly, and I get what he enjoys about them, but it doesn't do it for me, I can still respect and see where he's coming from.

The work rate thing is bullshit to me. Kevin Nash was horrible in the ring, he got payed, and good for him, but his less is more line of bullshit is just that, bullshit. You can count on one hand all the good matches Kevin Nash ever had and they were all with all-time great workers. Sometimes less is more, and a great worker can get away with it, but 95% of the time, less is just less.

Disagree about the match being half as good in front a lesser crowd. It would still be an all time great match. But would it have been in the tippy top? Probably not. That's what's lost on a lot of modern wrestling, the story aspect of things. NJPW does that better than any place out there today. The way their stories culminate, and the workers they have to execute those stories. I mean, the Tanahashi/Okada blow off was 3 years in the making for pete sakes.

[CrescentMoonie]

I'll just echo Al Snow on this one. The best match at Wrestlemania 3 was Andre-Hogan, because that's the one people paid to see. The goal of pro wrestling is to get paid the most money. Everything else is window dressing.

If half the people paid to see Okada vs Omega, then it's less of a match because it didn't capture enough fans and resulted in lower pay.

The best wrestlers can do a lot of moves. The best workers can engage the crowd and get them to spend money on the product. Meltzer is far too focused on wrestling and far to dismissive of working.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I saw the last 90 seconds or so sometime in the wee hours this morning.

Was it just me or did the actual (final) finisher appear to land not-quite-clean?

The Rainmaker at the end? Looked perfect to me.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

And I'll say the match was that great because of the build. Meltzer gives out snowflakes for so much stuff that I have a hard time trusting his opinion. I'm definitely in the Al Snow/Kevin Nash school on workrate being a dirt sheet term that shouldn't matter to the business. That match in front of half the crowd with no buildup isn't nearly as good.

Okada vs Omega is great due to the buildup, especially getting Omega from the goofball wrestling 12-year-old girls to a legit main event option. It also shows just how strong the Bullet Club is everywhere other than WWE.

But isn't that build up just because he's never gotten a shot at the IGWP heavyweight title? I mean Okada (according to tracking) had only defended it once since he won on June 19th. Would an American organization be fine with following this model? Constant 6 man tag matches with your champion until Mania?

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

I'll just echo Al Snow on this one. The best match at Wrestlemania 3 was Andre-Hogan, because that's the one people paid to see. The goal of pro wrestling is to get paid the most money. Everything else is window dressing.

If half the people paid to see Okada vs Omega, then it's less of a match because it didn't capture enough fans and resulted in lower pay.

The best wrestlers can do a lot of moves. The best workers can engage the crowd and get them to spend money on the product. Meltzer is far too focused on wrestling and far to dismissive of working.

Don't really get where you're coming from here. It's like comparing Taylor Swift to Bob Dylan. The point of all business is to make money of course. But to dismiss the quality of something because it doesn't draw money is silly. Flair/Steamboat had 3 all time great matches but could never make the kind of money that Hogan/Andre could. It doesn't mean Hogan/Andre was a better match.

People got up in arms when he gave a Young Bucks match in PWG last year 5 stars. How could a match in front of 200 people in a warehouse in Southern California get 5 stars? Because on that night, for that crowd, they worked a 5 star match. How much money it drew is irrelevant.

And further more, when people focus on shit like that, they completely discount the amount of reporting and insight he gives to the business side of things.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

But isn't that build up just because he's never gotten a shot at the IGWP heavyweight title? I mean Okada (according to tracking) had only defended it once since he won on June 19th. Would an American organization be fine with following this model? Constant 6 man tag matches with your champion until Mania?

It's a different beast, with the way TV is and all. I actually thought they were on to something when Brock had the belt and his defenses were few and far between. I thought it would have been very interesting to see them try and get something out of that and make the title matches seem much more important. Alas, they pretty much gave up on it in short order.

[SirFozzie]

Here's the thing . In Japan, title defenses are not handed out willy nilly. To see a title match at the IWGP level is a rare and special thing. It follow more the boxing/UFC style mode. Each tour is building up to who will be facing the champion, and then you get the global tag leagues, etcetera. Here's Okada's 2016 match list:

Kazuchika Okada: Profile & Match Listing - Internet Wrestling Database (IWD)

So, yeah, he's fought mostly in tag team matches, because to fight in a singles match that's not for the title makes no sense in Japan, and they keep title matches rare and "big-name".

In the US, the title is sometimes an adjunct to a feud (look at Styles-Cena. Cena's more about proving that he's no part-timer and he can beat anyone still). In Japan, the title is EVERYTHING.

[SirFozzie]

Also: That's 50 matches in 4 months (9/4/16-1/4/17). How many matches do you think Styles etcetera have had in there, double maybe? And most of them are not All-out matches, but where he works a six man or 8 man, or even a tag match.

They can go so skull crushing strong on main events because they're NOT taking bumps like that everynight.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

But isn't that build up just because he's never gotten a shot at the IGWP heavyweight title? I mean Okada (according to tracking) had only defended it once since he won on June 19th. Would an American organization be fine with following this model? Constant 6 man tag matches with your champion until Mania?

Not quite in the manner that Japan has been doing for decades, but there was a time where you could take longer as long as the stories were well done.

I think we saw the closest thing that US companies can do with the story of New Day breaking the record with the tag titles. There was an array of singles matches and other gimmicks along the way. I would have preferred even less title defenses than they did, but they got over in a major way.

The other option would be the way NXT has been run for most of the last 2 years of so. There aren't a ton of title defenses, and they don't even put everyone on TV every week, so things are allowed to build and peak at the preferred moment.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Don't really get where you're coming from here. It's like comparing Taylor Swift to Bob Dylan. The point of all business is to make money of course. But to dismiss the quality of something because it doesn't draw money is silly. Flair/Steamboat had 3 all time great matches but could never make the kind of money that Hogan/Andre could. It doesn't mean Hogan/Andre was a better match.

People got up in arms when he gave a Young Bucks match in PWG last year 5 stars. How could a match in front of 200 people in a warehouse in Southern California get 5 stars? Because on that night, for that crowd, they worked a 5 star match. How much money it drew is irrelevant.

And further more, when people focus on shit like that, they completely discount the amount of reporting and insight he gives to the business side of things.

The entire point of the business is to make the most money possible. Even in the age of guaranteed contracts, that is still the goal.

His business side reporting is excellent. His rating of matches is often laughably wrongheaded.

[Suicane75]

Exactly. It's a completely different beast to the way things are done in the US, WWE in particular.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

It's a different beast, with the way TV is and all. I actually thought they were on to something when Brock had the belt and his defenses were few and far between. I thought it would have been very interesting to see them try and get something out of that and make the title matches seem much more important. Alas, they pretty much gave up on it in short order.

I was hoping they would tell the story of Punk being champion and only showing up once every 30 or 90 days to defend and then disappearing again.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

The entire point of the business is to make the most money possible. Even in the age of guaranteed contracts, that is still the goal.

His business side reporting is excellent. His rating of matches is often laughably wrongheaded.

Eh, guess we'll just have to disagree. I just can't see why one has to affect the other. The NWO angle was amazing, It helped them become the #1 wrestling company in the world. Hogan/Sting drew WCW's biggest buyrate ever up until that point. It's a FUCKING HORRIBLE MATCH. To act like it's not would be completely disingenuous.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

The Rainmaker at the end? Looked perfect to me.

Yeah, that. Granted I watched it twice on my kid's phone at like 4am or whatever. I dunno precisely what looked off to me, felt like it was a little short-armed or something.

Went back, found it online again & found a better looking one to compare to (a 2012 Rainmaker delivered to Tanahashi). I'm more comfortable with last night's execution after watching it several more times in full screen mode. I think the camera angle mislead me to some extent (the comparison version I used was a side shot rather than him coming toward us). It looked "short" to me originally, like he didn't get a full impact delivery, perhaps even hit it with as much shoulder as arm. On several more viewings, it looks better to me now. Not his best one ever or anything (this was at the end of a Broadway after all) but much more in the normal range.

I'm not nitpicking as hard as it might appear either. Both guys are beasts, the final two minutes alone is better work than the majority of matches we'll see in the past year or the next year.

[Suicane75]

OMG. Scott Norton & Cheeseburger as a team is something I never knew I wanted so bad.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

I'll just echo Al Snow on this one. The best match at Wrestlemania 3 was Andre-Hogan, because that's the one people paid to see. The goal of pro wrestling is to get paid the most money. Everything else is window dressing.

I am not as die hard a fan as most in this thread, but I think this statement misses half the point.

No doubt Hogan-Andre was the mega event of all time. Why? Because it had been built for literally a decade at that point. Andre as it was wrestled very seldom at that point. He'd do a squash match. He'd do a spot. But he actually wrestled very little. So he seemed unbeatable, without running rough shod on the entire roster.

Likewise Hogan defended the belt what, 10 times a year between Saturday Night Main Events and PPVs? Seriously he likewise seemed untouchable. But you cant always have an untouchable. By definition if you always have an untouchable none of them are untouchable.

Further, I think there is a bit another misconception here.
If wrestling, all wrestling back then was Hogan-Andre level in about 3 years there would have been no fans because frankly that all time great was cold decayed garbage.

Someone mentioned Flair/Steamboat...Hell Flair-Ronnie Garvin put on a series of matches that embarrassed Hogan-Andre from a quality standpoint.

The Steamboat-Savage match remains my favorite Mania match ever. People forget that epic buildup. With the bell attack and promos showing Steamboat learning how to talk again after his "vocal chords were destroyed"...then what a payoff.

My point is, Steamboat-Savage kept the crowd interested while Hogan-Andre built a lather.

I'm really surprised we dont see a move to put the belt on Injured Superstars. Need surgery and going to be out 9 months. Here take the belt. Disappear. Show back up in three months, have your stable attack the challenger pre-match and get a walk over. Run away 3 months later. Finally at Mania when you are healed up wrestle an epic 30 minute showdown.

It keeps the title as worth chasing.

Frankly when someone is a X-teen time world champion its obvious they arent much better than anyone else, they just got lucky a few times. And fans, yes every fan, get this. Not just smarks. After a while your title is meaningless.