FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[Lathum]

I get the concept of innocent until proven guilty. I also fully understand I have the privilege of never being a black person being confronted by police. That being said I still believe if you have nothing to hide you should just comply which is why I think she’s likely guilty.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Lathum

That being said I still believe if you have nothing to hide you should just comply which is why I think she’s likely guilty.

You have to have quite a bit of faith in law enforcement. The number of police officers that plant fake evidence is greater than 0. The number that haul people in for crimes that were not committed and later dropped is significantly greater than zero. I don’t commit crimes, but I’m also not going to let an officer search me without really good reason. I’m not going to hit the police officer with my car to get away but they aren’t getting into my vehicle or pockets without making it clear that they have me detained and articulate exactly why.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I have zero interests as to whether it was justified or not. it is what it is based on whatever the criteria is.

Then I'm really done here, because that is only discussion I'm interested in having.

[CrimsonFox]

had some bad thoughts....i know i should stop

if it were a white person, would the cop had gotten in front of their car to make sure they didn't leave? would he have stopped her? would he have shot?

weirder question...would a white person had argued like that or tried to drive away?

dunno if the last question matters but i dunno. just weird uncomfortable questions

[Edward64]

I am curious the body cam & transcript of the first officer that made contact with the woman was not released. I get they would blur some stuff out when the shot occured.

Maybe he didn't have one on but that would seem out of procedure as the second officer had his on.

I would be interested in the exchange that happened before the second officer showed up. And that first officer's transcript & second angle might be helpful.

[CrimsonFox]

i wanna knowq about all the stuff that happened INSIDE the store....WANT SECURITY FOOTAGE!
also the conversation between the employee and the cop and trace that employee back to when they say the woman (there had to be security footage

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by dubb93

You have to have quite a bit of faith in law enforcement. The number of police officers that plant fake evidence is greater than 0. The number that haul people in for crimes that were not committed and later dropped is significantly greater than zero. I don’t commit crimes, but I’m also not going to let an officer search me without really good reason. I’m not going to hit the police officer with my car to get away but they aren’t getting into my vehicle or pockets without making it clear that they have me detained and articulate exactly why.

Maybe because I have several close family in law enforcement but I do have faith.

That being said, I likely wouldn't consent to any search either but i also wouldn't try and run the cop over. I would turn the car off and put my hands on the steering wheel.

I am also a middle aged white man in a BMW, so the entire interaction would be different regardless.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

if it were a white person, would the cop had gotten in front of their car to make sure they didn't leave? would he have stopped her? would he have shot?

weirder question...would a white person had argued like that or tried to drive away?

1. These are good questions.

2. But we know the answer to these questions.

[JPhillips]

In the poor, rural area I grew up in it was quite common for white folks to hate the cops.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Lathum

That being said, I likely wouldn't consent to any search either

A lot of police officers would find this suspicious. Even a lot of police officers that are patrolling on National TV with cameras rolling would find this suspicious. It’s crazy.

[GrantDawg]

But it doesn't really matter if they find it suspicious. They can't do a search without probable cause, or a warrant.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

In the poor, rural area I grew up in it was quite common for white folks to hate the cops.

i mean I don't like cops either. I'm afraid when I see them. BUt that's just because they are always looking for excuses to pulls people over. Not because I think they'll shoot me.

And when I am pulled over I dread them wasting my time and giving me a ticket. But I would never ever ever ever drive away...no matter how many times I saw it in movies growing up.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

1. These are good questions.

2. But we know the answer to these questions.

I don't really know the answer to the last question. But I think white people are more likely to just argue with cops and others like me are too scared of them to do anything but obey them and sit there nervously. Never think of driving away. I think maybe Maga people might ignore them and drive away but maga people seem to shout at them and argue more. Shrug. Thoughts?

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

I don't really know the answer to the last question. But I think white people are more likely to just argue with cops and others like me are too scared of them to do anything but obey them and sit there nervously. Never think of driving away. I think maybe Maga people might ignore them and drive away but maga people seem to shout at them and argue more. Shrug. Thoughts?

If you watch many police stops, the people that argue with police come in all the colors of the rainbow. So do the ones that run. Those that argue come in many flavors as well. From the sovereign citizen that believes the law don't apply to them, to the entitled white person who believe police should never inconvenience them, to the regularly incarcerated who believe they know the law better than the cops.

The people that run generally do so because they have drugs, or illegal guns, or they have open warrants. The "I'm ran because I was afraid" almost always seem to be the ones who have like 8 warrants in 3 counties. They ran because they were afraid of going to jail.

That is not a blanket of everyone in those situations obviously. Some people argue because they are innocent and feel targeted. Some people do run because they are scared and don't know what else to do. I would say the last group are a very small number, though. If you fear police then the last thing most people do is escalate with the them.

[cuervo72]

VIDEO: Family rushing to save dog’s life held at gunpoint by police | KRQE News 13

[cuervo72]

Officer Caught Laughing At Grad Student Killed By Speeding Cop

[Edward64]

Reading the article, seems like a justified shooting.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lee-all...eorgia-deputy/

A man who spent more than 16 years in prison in Florida on a wrongful conviction was shot and killed Monday by a sheriff's deputy in Georgia during a traffic stop, authorities and representatives said.

The Georgia Bureau of Investigation said a Camden County deputy pulled over a driver along Interstate 95 near the Georgia-Florida line and the driver got out of the car at the deputy's request. He cooperated at first but became violent after he was told he was being arrested, a GBI news release said.

The agency said preliminary information shows the deputy shocked the driver with a stun gun when he failed to obey commands, and the driver then began assaulting the deputy. The GBI said the deputy again tried using the stun gun and a baton to subdue him, then drew his gun and shot the driver when he continued to resist.

The agency didn't say what prompted the deputy to pull over Cure's vehicle.

But there better be corroborating evidence from the cop cam. Article made no mention of it ... there better be a cop cam.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

But there better be corroborating evidence from the cop cam. Article made no mention of it ... there better be a cop cam.

There was video from the car and also body cam. For the car cam, see about 1:50. Taser didn't work and then it really escalated.

[RainMaker]

That looks justified. They really should train officers in BJJ though.

[flere-imsaho]

Yeah, that's pretty unambiguous.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That looks justified. They really should train officers in BJJ though.

BJ's generally do calm things down.


That whole sequence had me cringing. They were right on that white line. Such a dangerous place to be standing much less wrestling.

[HerRealName]

Is it normal to demand a driver leave the vehicle for a traffic stop like that?

[GrantDawg]

It depends on the situation. In this case the driver was being arrested because of reckless driving and being a super-speeder. If it had been a non-arrestable offense then he most likely would have let him stay in the car.


Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

It depends on the situation. In this case the driver was being arrested because of reckless driving and being a super-speeder. If it had been a non-arrestable offense then he most likely would have let him stay in the car.


Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

Thanks, it didn't even occur to me that this was an arrestable offense. Apparently the highways here have desensitized me to speeding.

[CrimsonFox]

He did not deserve to be shouted at he did not deserve to be arrested he did not deserve to be tased. He did not deserve to be shot.

We are seeing what happens when you break a man down. 26 years for something he didn't do. And then you try to arrest him again and send him right back to jail. He was right. Should just give him a ticket. With the amount of traffic there I don't see how he could have been going 100 mph in a pos truck but it could have been way back. But the cop didn't even talk to him from the window and give him a ticket. It doesn't matter how fast he was going. You just get a higher ticket it it's over 90.

Treating him like he had a gun was ridiculous. Totally racist event there.

[RainMaker]

I don't know what led to it. If you're going 85 in a 65 on the highway, I imagine a ticket is the normal response. If you're going 100+ and swerving in and out of traffic, they're likely going to take you out of the car.

Maybe the stop was inappropriate (and should be investigated), but you can't get in a fight on the edge of the highway and not expect someone to come at you with full force to stop it.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

He did not deserve to be shouted at he did not deserve to be arrested he did not deserve to be tased. He did not deserve to be shot.

We are seeing what happens when you break a man down. 26 years for something he didn't do. And then you try to arrest him again and send him right back to jail. He was right. Should just give him a ticket. With the amount of traffic there I don't see how he could have been going 100 mph in a pos truck but it could have been way back. But the cop didn't even talk to him from the window and give him a ticket. It doesn't matter how fast he was going. You just get a higher ticket it it's over 90.

Treating him like he had a gun was ridiculous. Totally racist event there.

Sorry, but reckless driving (most likely quickly changing lanes) along with a super-speeder charge in Georgia is an escalator. It means he wasn't getting a ticket. It means he is going to jail.

[CrimsonFox]

Interesting. I've never heard of a super speeder law. I found that it's a civil tax law used to generate more state funds.

Is a Super Speeder Ticket Another Form of Reckless Driving Georgia Crime?
No, it is not. The GA reckless driving (RD) law found in code section OCGA 40-6-390 is one of the serious Georgia traffic laws and is a crime. The Super Speeder law is civil in nature and is a tax law.

The RD law criminalizes this conduct: "Any person who drives any vehicle in reckless disregard for the safety of persons or property commits the offense of reckless driving." Any reckless driving charge can carry a fine of up to $1000 and the possibility of jail time of 12 months.

The GA super speeder law is merely a civil tax collection law that was created to generate more income for the State. Plus, the Georgia Legislature tied the payment to the offender's right to driving within the borders of Georgia, by basically suspended that offender's right to ever driver in GA while the $200 penalty is unpaid.

The super speeder Georgia statute does not add any Georgia speeding ticket points like the OCGA reckless driving statute does. Nor does it call for jail time.

Fight or Pay Super Speeder GA Ticket? This article focuses on how to fight a super speeder ticket in Georgia. It also discusses what happens if you get a super speeder ticket in Georgia. Additionally, the article explains how much a GA super speeder ticket in Georgia is.

How much is a super speeder ticket in GA? How to get a super speeder ticket off your record? The #1 way is to let a skilled traffic ticket lawyer handle the case from the beginning. For some drivers (e.g., those under age 21 and CDL licensees) a conviction for a high-speed misdemeanor citation can be financially painful and socially painful.

A Georgia super speeder fine must be paid in addition to the regular speeding ticket amount. If you exceed the posted speed limit by more than 20 miles you can be written a super speeder fine.
What is the deal with the Georgia super speeder law? Unlike any other state, Georgia has over 1,000 different traffic courts that process GA traffic offense cases. Georgia's super speeder fine is a money-making technique which charges drivers caught going over the speed limit an extra $200, in addition to any other court-ordered penalties.

This O.C.G.A. suspended license only goes into effect if the $200 does not get timely paid to DDS in Georgia. This would occur after the criminal law case is wrapped up and the high-speed ticket is reported to the Georgia Department of Driver Services.

Our traffic ticket lawyers are sometimes able to get an interstate speeding ticket dropped to 84-in-a-70-speeding ticket in GA, which does not get reported to other states. Of course, the rules are different on any 2 lane roads, and none of these have an 85 mph speed limit.

What is considered a super speeder in GA? Any driver convicted of speeding (or missing his or her court date) also CAN go to jail, by the way. The issue never is "how much does a super speeder ticket cost," since that is just a small financial assessment. When the DDS GA notice is mailed out and not paid in 30 days, and then another 90 days pass, the scofflaw driver is then suspended, by Georgia's Department of Driver Safety, after those 120 days pass.

Do you have to go to court for a super speeder in GA? Sometimes, but if you provide a power of attorney for your criminal lawyers near me in Georgia to act, then likely not. Here is the language of the Georgia super speeder law, OCGA 40-6-189.

Do not call our law firm just before your court date. One of the secrets to resolving traffic misdemeanor cases successfully is finding the right criminal defense attorneys. (Yes, a traffic violation like speeding is a crime, in GA.)

For drivers under the age of 21 facing a high-speed ticket, some different pitfalls exists. These cases usually require the help of a traffic crime defense

[CrimsonFox]

it's still just a ticket

[CrimsonFox]

I mean I guess technically yes an officer could decide to arrest someone for whatever they wanted. But the escalation was 100% on the cop, esp when he tazed him. I mean the guy just said "Well give me a ticket".

[NobodyHere]

I don't think it was up to Cure to decide his own punishment.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Interesting. I've never heard of a super speeder law. I found that it's a civil tax law used to generate more state funds.

You can say that about every ticket, but there is a greater reason for it. It is much more dangerous to be going 100 mph than 45 miles and hour, right? Getting a ticket at 100 mph should bear a greater penalty than a 45 mph ticket even if they are both the same amount over the posted limit. Lawsuits by people who don't want to be penalized for speeding excessively is laughable. You are putting other people in danger. Speeding greatly increases the chance of an accident, and also greatly increases the chance of fatality.
As for the tazing, he failed to comply with a lawful order and the officer had every reason to feel in danger. There is a longer video to this. This one is cut. He asked the guy several times to place his hands behind is back, and he refuses.

[Edward64]

See the full video (or at least more of it). Pullover at about 2:00, shot fired at about 4:00

Dashcam footage shows deputy shoot Leonard Cure, Georgia man exonerated after 16 years in prison - YouTube

[flere-imsaho]

I thought I recalled that at a certain point in excess of the speed limit you're considered to be driving recklessly anyway, so all of the above over whether it's just a ticket could potentially be moot.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

It is actually possible that she didn't steal and the employees just pointed a finger at her.
And thus her ignoring them was more motivated by disliking the racial profiling of them accusing her. I mean the us saying "she should comply and she'll be let go" thing doesn't always apply to black people. And we see over and over again black people trying to run away from cops and then getting shot.

It's too messed up to have a solution

The current discussion made me remember your question. See at :50 the shoplifting and about 3:05 leaving the store.

Surveillance video from inside the state liquor store shows Young putting several bottles of liquor into a bag she was carrying. The Blendon Township Police Department said two other unidentified women also placed bottles in their bags. They all left the store, setting off theft alarms on their way out, according to police.

A Kroger employee told officers who were at the store on an unrelated matter that multiple people were fleeing the store with stolen items, Police Chief John Belford said. That included Young who had allegedly taken multiple bottles of alcohol. One officer went to the driver’s side of Young's car and told her to stop, Belford said, while the other officer moved in front of the vehicle.

Shots were fired less than one minute after she walked out of the store.

[dubb93]

Anytime you over power a cop you can expect to get shot because the alternative is the cop has to know you can render him unconscious and then get his gun. It’s one of the many reasons why it is so stupid to throw hands with a cop. If you win you become such a threat that the cop has to shoot you. He can’t have you loose with his gun in public.

This seems like a guy that played a stupid game and won his stupid prize.

EDIT: Im referring to the traffic stop and did not watch the shoplifting video yet.

[CrimsonFox]

He'd have had him in the third round if he'd just kept his left up.

[Edward64]

I was curious about why the taser didn't seem to work well. Googling tells me the manufacturer says 80-95% effective in the field, but a bunch of articles say lower, and a 2015 study say 55-80%. Distance, clothing etc. lots of factors.

Tasers Are Less Effective Than Believed, Analysis Shows : NPR


I'm not sure the cop's past record is relevant in this situation. He could have handled it better (hindsight is 20-20) but little doubt to me that he had the right to shoot the perp once the fight started. But just for the public record ...

Deputy involved in deadly shooting has a history of unnecessary use of force, records show – Action News Jax

The deputy who shot and killed a Georgia man this week during a traffic stop on I-95 had a history of unnecessary use of force.

Deputy Buck Aldridge’s personnel file reveals he was fired from the Kingsland Police Department more than five years ago, before being hired by the Camden County Sheriff’s Office.

And, KPD’s personnel files reveal Aldridge had several warnings prior to his termination.

His records show he was hired in December of 2012. Five years later, he was fired for violating two policies - “use of necessary and appropriate force” and “on/off duty conduct.”

[illinifan999]

2 Hillsborough County deputies injured by driver in 'ambush' | wtsp.com

They attempted to de-escalate by letting him ignore their investigative efforts. Didn't work, he came back with an intent to kill. And yet they took him into custody without killing him. Something that some people would tell you is impossible.

Edit: Also clearly zero widespread media coverage.

[cuervo72]

They had that on the nightly news on all of ABC/NBC/CBS.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

They had that on the nightly news on all of ABC/NBC/CBS.

But what if they didn't?

[CrimsonFox]

Priest in Nebraska murdered in church.

[Edward64]

Obviously, some bad incidents have come to light of bad cops with footage from police bodycams (and bystanders' videos).

OTH here are some bodycam videos that shows you what cops have to put up with in (mostly) non-violent stuff. Think of it as "Cops" for traffic violations and stuff.

Bottom-line. I'm not sure I can be a cop. I'd slap the sh*t out of majority of these folks.

Body Cam Watch - YouTube



As an example, below video shows where a cop stopped a car but he couldn't see inside so he stayed back and called for backup. I better appreciate how cops approach an unknown situation. And another example where tasers don't work jack sh*t.

[RainMaker]

Guardian Angels rough up man in Times Square then misidentify him as a 'migrant' | AP News

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Obviously, some bad incidents have come to light of bad cops with footage from police bodycams (and bystanders' videos).

OTH here are some bodycam videos that shows you what cops have to put up with in (mostly) non-violent stuff. Think of it as "Cops" for traffic violations and stuff.

Bottom-line. I'm not sure I can be a cop. I'd slap the sh*t out of majority of these folks.

Body Cam Watch - YouTube



As an example, below video shows where a cop stopped a car but he couldn't see inside so he stayed back and called for backup. I better appreciate how cops approach an unknown situation. And another example where tasers don't work jack sh*t.

I'm kind of addicted to youtube videos of body cams. Both where the police are good and where they act horribly.

I can tell you there is NO way I'd be a cop. And there are plenty of interactions with all races that just go off the rails nuts. There are certainly bad cops. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. But man alive, some of the things they go through? Not for me.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I'm kind of addicted to youtube videos of body cams. Both where the police are good and where they act horribly.

I can tell you there is NO way I'd be a cop. And there are plenty of interactions with all races that just go off the rails nuts. There are certainly bad cops. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. But man alive, some of the things they go through? Not for me.

My cousin has been a cop for close to 20 years and is just jaded as fuck, and he lives in an area that isn't too bad.

My nephew has been a NJ State Trooper for about 2 years and he is totally into the job, loves telling stories, and is totally enamoured.

The contrast always makes me laugh and realize how the job just wears you down over time.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I'm kind of addicted to youtube videos of body cams. Both where the police are good and where they act horribly.

I can tell you there is NO way I'd be a cop. And there are plenty of interactions with all races that just go off the rails nuts. There are certainly bad cops. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. But man alive, some of the things they go through? Not for me.

Police body cams with stops, shoplifters, disturbance calls etc.; sovereign nation folks; airport security, smuggling etc. ... all entertaining but frustrating stuff.

Currently watching some zoom videos of court cases during the pandemic. Divorce, child support stuff ...

YT has made me a voyeur into how messed up and pathetic many people are, and how pretty well trained & patient many cops are.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Police body cams with stops, shoplifters, disturbance calls etc.; sovereign nation folks; airport security, smuggling etc. ... all entertaining but frustrating stuff.

Currently watching some zoom videos of court cases during the pandemic. Divorce, child support stuff ...

YT has made me a voyeur into how messed up and pathetic many people are, and how pretty well trained & patient many cops are.

Ditto. It's kind of confirmed just about everything I've learned in life. If you are respectful, nice, truthful. . . you usually are gonna be treated with respect by the police, judges, etc. If you are disrespectful, you are going to make things 200x worse for yourself. You can be respectful and say "I want a lawyer" I'm not talking about giving in to every demand, even if it's unconstitutional. I'm just pointing out your response.

Respectful arrests are all over youtube, but they are "boring" videos. "Yes, I hit my wife" "please put your hands behind your back" "OK" What follows is a boring as hell five minutes of body cam while a guy gets put respectfully in a car.

The "exciting" videos are almost always "May I please have your license and registration?" "I know the law, you can't do this, I did nothing wrong" "OK, I have the right in a traffic stop to ask you for this, may I please have that information?" "screw you pig" And then fireworks start. I've probably seen hours of videos where people went from a simple traffic violation to jail in about 30 seconds.

[flere-imsaho]

If you think cop body cams are fun, Ontario is apparently going to trial having youth soccer referees wear body cams....

[sovereignstar v2]

I went through a binge of the bodycam videos after Edward first posted that 20 something-year old drunk driver from Florida. Some of them are really entertaining, while others are sad. Addiction, mental health issues, homelessness, you name it. Some of these people never had a chance.

Whilst on the subject of YT, I've been pretty enamored with this channel. This guy does reporting in the craziest places and isn't very exploitative about it like many wannabe journalists.

Channel 5 with Andrew Callaghan - YouTube

The SF and Philly videos... whoa