Soccer Thread 2022-2023

[miami_fan]

What a game!

[Edward64]

Free kicks suck

[sovereignstar v2]

The empire strikes back

[GrantDawg]

This match is insane.

[sovereignstar v2]

Need Sam Beckett to leap back and change rules to golden goal

[GrantDawg]

LET THEM KEEP PLAYING!!!

[Edward64]

What a save

[sovereignstar v2]

Add 40 commercial breaks and this shit is just as exciting as the NFL.

[GrantDawg]

Dang it. Those last three minutes were sp exciting. I wish they just went "golden goal" instead.

[miami_fan]

Practice your penalties kiddos!

[whomario]

The only logical conclusion to this is Messi missing the final Pen, sadly ...

[sovereignstar v2]

Not if this is a Disney movie

[miami_fan]

Cool so the same player can take and make more than one penalty in the same match.

[sovereignstar v2]

The definition of pressure

[Edward64]

Feel for France. Great game.

[sovereignstar v2]

Hallelujah

[sovereignstar v2]

Great outcome so Messi's legacy is never in doubt.

[miami_fan]

The emotions of international sports. The absolute BEST!

[Edward64]

If all soccer matches were this good, I'd be a fan.

[miami_fan]

While I give Kylian Mbappé shit, he is the next great one. Hell, he is the great now.

[Ksyrup]

I still contend that the PK is way too harsh a penalty for a foul in the box. Hockey has the better solution.

[PilotMan]

That was simply amazing. What a ride. Unending drama right to the end.

[Sweed]

Great game. Almost glad I didn't have a dog in the fight.

Bonus for my day... I woke up and found a complimentary $5 free bet in my MGM account for WC. Game was already under way in the 65th(?) minute Argentina up 2-0 (yeah late night so woke up late). Anyway I put the "free $5" on a live bet tie in regulation at +1300

[PilotMan]

Amazing. Imagine if you'd bet 'tie at regulation' right after Argentina scored in ET?

[miami_fan]

I can't stop laughing at the fact that Nicolás Otamendi was the starter CB on a World Cup winning side.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I can't stop laughing at the fact that Nicolás Otamendi was the starter CB on a World Cup winning side.

The game was petering out to a safe 2-0 Argentina win until he lumbered in like an aging carthorse and made it all exciting again.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Critch

The game was petering out to a safe 2-0 Argentina win until he lumbered in like an aging carthorse and made it all exciting again.

Us neutrals appreciate

[flere-imsaho]

One of the best games of soccer/football I've ever watched.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

The emotions of international sports. The absolute BEST!

A look at Andres Cantor as he makes the call that crowns 🇦🇷 World Cup champions. Such an emotional and moving moment for Cantor, who was born in Argentina and moved to the US as a teenager. A voice, and a human, for the ages ❤️❤️pic.twitter.com/eYeoBdeNRZ

— Men in Blazers (@MenInBlazers) December 18, 2022

[MIJB#19]

I heard so much "best match ever" non-sense at the Dutch and Belgian tv shows, but I think those people were short on memory. The last 20 minutes of the first half were dull, while the second half was boring as hell until France out of nowhere scored their 2 goals. That turnaround did kick the game into the highest gear and indeed made for the nervous end of the regular playing time and for an exciting overtime and penalty kicks. people by then had completely having forgotten how all the experts called bullshit on the Argentina penalty kick.

The award ceremony was one of the most awkward I've ever seen. I'm not sure what to make of Messi getting forced to wear something silly over his kit, but it wasn't as bad as the Argentina goalkeepers' obscene gesture.

[sovereignstar v2]

Also shocked a central defender that has won multiple PL titles, Europa League, and Copa America would start on a World Cup winning team with 10 other guys.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

I heard so much "best match ever" non-sense at the Dutch and Belgian tv shows, but I think those people were short on memory. The last 20 minutes of the first half were dull, while the second half was boring as hell until France out of nowhere scored their 2 goals. That turnaround did kick the game into the highest gear and indeed made for the nervous end of the regular playing time and for an exciting overtime and penalty kicks. people by then had completely having forgotten how all the experts called bullshit on the Argentina penalty kick.

The award ceremony was one of the most awkward I've ever seen. I'm not sure what to make of Messi getting forced to wear something silly over his kit, but it wasn't as bad as the Argentina goalkeepers' obscene gesture.

It's an odd sport. It seems like 90% of it is about penalties and referees. I don't understand all the nuances of penalty/not penalty, but I get that if you're unlucky (as Argentina was at the end of extra time) and the ball is kicked into your elbow, that's a penalty and no one's going to complain. The football equivalent would be granting seven points every time there's encroachment in the red zone - then overtime is decided by kicking extra points while someone on the defense waves a giant foam finger to try and block them.

So, yeah, France came out dead, and it seemed like an inevitable march toward a certain outcome after the second goal. France believed it and Argentina believed it and by the time the first half was over we were already into stall and fake injury time. I was regretting having even watched, and then suddenly the Argentine defender gave up a penalty that he probably should have done a lot better on.

And it was a game again - France came to life for the first time all day while it seemed like Argentina was waiting for its coronation and there were some great moments at the end of the half and into overtime.

Then Messi did his thing and that should have been it, but we had to have lots more penalties to wind up in the same place.

I apologize to soccer fans. I know there's a lot more to the sport. But once every four years is enough for me, and by the end I'm already long since ready for it to conclude.

I didn't see the goalie and his glove dance, but OK, whatever's on your mind after such a great achievement. Makes sense.

[flere-imsaho]

Maybe soccer not the sport for you.

[NobodyHere]

I just wanted to say that I did not watch a minute of the World Cup. I have no idea who won, and fuck the hosts with a Donald Trump pointed stick.

[Ksyrup]

The opposite of a freezing take. Funny thing is that he skipped 2018 and went with 2022.

December 18, 2022. 34 year old Leo Messi will win the World Cup and become the greatest player of all times. Check back with me in 7 years.

— José Miguel Polanco (@josepolanco10) March 20, 2015

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I still contend that the PK is way too harsh a penalty for a foul in the box. Hockey has the better solution.

On the other hand, if you didn't have such a hard penalty for it, teams would deliberately take fouls like basketball and the sport would be even more of a slog. I thought it was swift justice for a handball, plus they do it all the time and don't get caught. He just got caught that time and obviously, the ref is trying to balance the game and give France a shot at it...so like a NBA ref he's trying to drag us to overtime and Mbappe delivered.

Watching that dude PUT FRANCE ON HIS BACK and almost will them to a title, was truly special. I only tuned in when France were down 1-2 and just seeing how much he took over the game was really wild. That teammate who missed that header he fed him will be lamenting that for the next four years, but the kids who didn't get put on that team were surely put on notice and they're gonna be ready...though the next World Cup is gonna be bananas with all those teams.

Penalties are unsatisfying, but golden goal tonight would have been great for Messi but bad for what we got after that...it was like a heavyweight fight and so, it made sense in the end that they went to the scorecards.

[Ksyrup]

A 10 minute 11-on-10 and the offensive team getting a free kick from anywhere outside the box of their choosing feels just about right to me. France had no business being in that game at the 80th minute, foul in the box or not.

It's like instead of awarding 1B on a HBP, the pitcher has to groove a meatball for a HR derby swing.

[miami_fan]

The NFL equivalent of a penalty kick is DPI in the red zone IMO when the original line of scrimmage is outside of the red zone especially if the line of scrimmage was in the offensive half of the field. Once the ball is spotted, the offense still has to score. Penalty conversion rate and red scoring percentage(TD or FG) are about the same, though red zone scoring rate(TDs only) is lower. Would people feel better if penalties only counted for .5 goals?

As far as the golden goal, the majority of managers are already paralyzed by the the fear of losing more than going for the win. Golden goal did and would just result in a park the bus vs park the bus snoozefest. The scorecard analogy is a perfect way to describe penalties.

[Ksyrup]

The NFL DPI rule (not just in the end zone, the whole "spot for the foul" thing) sucks. College has it right.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

A 10 minute 11-on-10 and the offensive team getting a free kick from anywhere outside the box of their choosing feels just about right to me. France had no business being in that game at the 80th minute, foul in the box or not.

It's like instead of awarding 1B on a HBP, the pitcher has to groove a meatball for a HR derby swing.

I started watching football maybe 15 years ago and, while I can watch and understand a lot, I think of myself as a novice compared to those that grew up with the game. So from my novice perspective I would say Young Drachma has it right.

With your rule all of my defenders, in a critical situation would be trained to use their arms and worry about being a player short later. 10 minutes a man down compared to an almost certain goal? No brainer. The only premier league game I've attended Arsenal was down a man, and down a goal (2-1) at around 65 minutes. They won 3-2. Being down a man for 10 minutes IMHO is not a deterrent to getting myself out of a very bad situation and being able to reset my defense. Sure, I'm a man down but there's not a goal on the board and killing 10 minutes in football isn't terribly hard.

I suppose they could break down when a penalty kick should or shouldn't be used depending on the type of foul? IDK that may bring more controversy than the rules they have now. And to be fair the var and ref have some leeway on player intent now for extended arms and handballs.

[Ksyrup]

Then I would find a "penalty" that is harsh enough but not as almost automatically game-changing as the PK.

I'm definitely a novice and likely always will be, even if I watch another 35 years of soccer. There are certain things about the game that don't make sense to me and never will - offsides, allowing players to handle a ball after a foul or the ball goes out of play, penalties, a lot of foul calls, faking/exaggerating injuries and fouls... I could on and on. Most of it just doesn't seem "normal" based on playing and watching the typical US sports. But penalties bother me the most because of the combination of little scoring in the game generally and almost automatic conversion of penalties.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Then I would find a "penalty" that is harsh enough but not as almost automatically game-changing as the PK.

I'm definitely a novice and likely always will be, even if I watch another 35 years of soccer. There are certain things about the game that don't make sense to me and never will - offsides, allowing players to handle a ball after a foul or the ball goes out of play, penalties, a lot of foul calls, faking/exaggerating injuries and fouls... I could on and on. Most of it just doesn't seem "normal" based on playing and watching the typical US sports. But penalties bother me the most because of the combination of little scoring in the game generally and almost automatic conversion of penalties.

The best parallel I can make is that baseball (and football) are full of little things like this, that would take someone decades to understand or appreciate and for us, there isn't a second thought to these quirks or even the evolution of those things.

I think flopping is the worst, but I also hate late fouling in the NBA/College and if they wanted to fix that tomorrow they could and they don't. So it's all relative, I think.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I get that if you're unlucky (as Argentina was at the end of extra time) and the ball is kicked into your elbow, that's a penalty and no one's going to complain.

There was nothing unlucky there, the defender called it upon himself. The real unlucky penalty was the one that put Argentina 1-0 up. Which at the same time acknowledges your point in how crucial those kind of situations are in this sport, especially at this level.

Originally Posted by miami_fan

The NFL equivalent of a penalty kick is DPI in the red zone IMO when the original line of scrimmage is outside of the red zone especially if the line of scrimmage was in the offensive half of the field. Once the ball is spotted, the offense still has to score. Penalty conversion rate and red scoring percentage(TD or FG) are about the same, though red zone scoring rate(TDs only) is lower. Would people feel better if penalties only counted for .5 goals?

I think that's the most fitting football to football analogy.

Originally Posted by miami_fan

As far as the golden goal, the majority of managers are already paralyzed by the the fear of losing more than going for the win. Golden goal did and would just result in a park the bus vs park the bus snoozefest. The scorecard analogy is a perfect way to describe penalties.

It was tried and it played out as you described it. In this particular defense first World Cup, that would have made things ever more unwatchable. I mean, maybe I'm off here, I think I watched too few matches to judge it...

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Young Drachma

The best parallel I can make is that baseball (and football) are full of little things like this, that would take someone decades to understand or appreciate and for us, there isn't a second thought to these quirks or even the evolution of those things.

I think flopping is the worst, but I also hate late fouling in the NBA/College and if they wanted to fix that tomorrow they could and they don't. So it's all relative, I think.

I get it. The one small thing I would love for them to fix is the handling of the ball. It pisses me off, enrages me. And that's TOTALLY from 5 decades of playing/watching basketball, where it's a technical foul the second time you touch a ball after you've scored... let alone, grab a ball after it's gone OOB and throw it down the court so your team can get prepared to play defense.

Absolutely infuriates me.

[flere-imsaho]

Yeah, the golden goal was terrible. I remember the argument for it was that it would incent teams to get aggressive and try to win the game, but instead it almost guaranteed you were going to penalty kicks each time.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Young Drachma

I think flopping is the worst

I thought the caution (yellow card) for Thuram for flopping (simulation) was so great to see. So ironic that his dad was on the receiving end of those dives back in the day (as his father was an iconic defender in the '90s).

[flere-imsaho]

The current iteration of the handball rule has been in place for at least 4 years and the specific provision that nailed the Argentine player was that it is a handball if the player is using his arms to make his body unnaturally bigger, which typically engenders a lot of debate about what's natural and what's unnatural in open play.

But having said that, it is for this reason that you see most top defenders put their hands behind their backs when they're in the penalty area and are being confronted by an attacker with the ball. Jumping into the air with your arms flailing is always given when it's seen by the officials.

It sucks if it's unintentional, but a key point I think a lot of people miss is that intention is not always applicable for fouls in football/soccer. It's like if you pocket the 8 ball in pool and scratch. You certainly did not intend to pocket the 8 ball, but you made a decision that put yourself at risk that you would, and you lost that battle of percentages.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I thought the caution (yellow card) for Thuram for flopping (simulation) was so great to see. So ironic that his dad was on the receiving end of those dives back in the day (as his father was an iconic defender in the '90s).

{Unpopular opinion alert}

Simulation does not bother me at all at the professional. level. It definitely is an attempt to con the refs into giving you a decision. I just don't see it as any worse than framing pitches, claiming that it is your ball knowing that you were the last person to knock it out of bounds, or a receiver throwing his hands in the air and/or falling down to give the appearance of being interfered with. Players are going to do what they can to try and get an edge and that includes conning the official.

It is very simple to solve simulation. First, automatic red card for obvious acts of simulation. Two players go up for a header and one lands and grabs the back of their head even though no one hit him in the head? Off. Dive on the ground even though you were not touched to try and win a foul? Off. That does leave a lot in the hands of the official to determine whether the player is trying to con the official or something else like avoiding a leg breaking tackle. Looking back for a decision from the official would be evidence of the former especially with VAR. That leads me to the second part of the solution. If a player is fouled, it does not matter whether if it is soft, or if the player does not go to the ground. If Erling Haaland (6'4" 194lbs) is being held in the box by Lionel Messi (5'7" 148 lbs), Haaland should not have to go sprawling on the ground to get the penalty. There is no need to force players to engage in that silliness for the correct decision to be made. And yes, that is going to require a major rewrite of the laws because players want to be able to hold, push or even to require the contact in the box be enough to force the player to the ground against a player's before a penalty is given be put in the laws.

The same thing with players rolling all over the ground after being tackled. Judge the tackle or attempted tackle, not the result. If a person attempts to two foot an opponent, that is a sending off even if he misses. If a player commits a foul and it just so happens that the player got hurt, the guy can roll from one end of the pitch to the other, it is still just a foul. Get the stretcher to take him off the field and have the official use his own judgment as to when to allow the player back on the field once he has healed up. If the player rolled around 50 times after a tackle, he probably is not ready to come back on the pitch five seconds after he comes off. Give the player "proper" time to heal up.

[Ghost Econ]

I like the rule MLS Next Pro implemented, although I have no idea if they actually followed it last season.

Basically, if you're down at least 15 seconds, medical staff has to come out and you have to come out of the game for the next 3 minutes.

While not the same as simulation to draw a foul, rules like this would at least decrease the blatant rolling around players do after a benign touch.

Edit: at least according to MLS, there was 1 instance where the rule was used.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Ghost Econ

I like the rule MLS Next Pro implemented, although I have no idea if they actually followed it last season.

Basically, if you're down at least 15 seconds, medical staff has to come out and you have to come out of the game for the next 3 minutes.

While not the same as simulation to draw a foul, rules like this would at least decrease the blatant rolling around players do after a benign touch.

Edit: at least according to MLS, there was 1 instance where the rule was used.

That really does have a simple genius.