Werewolf LVII: Cathedral (GAME OVER!)

[saldana]

i also am wondering why we have to have Lathum give Oliegirl a voting order...why cant we just pick someone and have them place the vote...if they dont do it, or vote for someone that is not the consensus, then we have an easy target for tomorrow

seems to me like Lathum is over complicating things as a way to make himself seem more important.

[Abe Sargent]

That actually makes a lot of sense saldana.

[saldana]

one more thought....

NTN had the ability to send/recieve a PM with one player per day....seeing as he was killed the first night, would it not be a reasonable assumption that his Day 1 choice was a Demon, and since they knew his ability, killed him for it.

working from that position, who do we think would be likely to be NTN's choice for a day one message?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by path12

Quite a lot happened since yesterday, I see. Let me try and address a couple of things.

First, my vote for Schmidty yesterday. I said it was little more than a hunch, and that was true. Schmidty took it as a bit more than that and wanted an explanation. I'm OK with that. It's ironic, but the reason I was wondering about him was due to the fact that he was around much more than normal on day 1. That's it.

Secondly, for Alan -- you need to sometimes just look at things in the simplest way instead of looking for conspiracy everywhere. I vouched for Anxiety day 1. I claim no other knowledge. Anxiety vouched for me yesterday (thanks, Abe!). It does not make sense for either of us to come out this early to protect a fellow demon. Even though we have lost a seer, I don't doubt that there is some other kind of role in this game that has the ability to see what side someone is on........and I'd be very surprised if neither Anxiety or myself would not have been checked by now. Instead of reaching for illogical conclusions that we must be bad, I think it makes more sense (especially in light of Anxiety pointing towards Render) to assume that we have the beginnings of knowing who some of the good guys are. Just because I do not want to specifically spell out my role doesn't mean it shouldn't be pretty damn clear by now.......and again, if I was bad wouldn't it be more prudent for me to just claim some sort of role to stop all the speculation? As far as I'm concerned, your pushing on this makes you look far more suspicious than I am.

I need to reread some stuff to see about our bishop, but agree that his motives might not entirely jive with ours. In the meantime:

WORK ON CARPENTRY

I don't see how my questioning you makes me look far more suspicious. I would think it would be something that any villager would want to get to the bottom of. The only thing worse than a CoT is one built with someone who can't be trusted in the middle of it.

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Just re-reading this post. Could it be that one of them is Lucifer and the other of them is Gabriel?

I actually have my mind thinking a different pair being Gabriel and Lucifer. Its been part of my hunch all along. I agree with someone else (I think olliegirl said it?) That I don't see any reason why Gabriel and Lucifer would want to protect each other, and would assume they would be working to remove each other from the start.

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Alan, I don't suppose you're ready to explain your hunch yet.

You keep digging for something, and I think you're a wolf trying to find targets. I'm going to explain my hunch, not because I feel I want to prove anything to you or because I want to provide you more information, but instead to share my line of thinking with others since it appears that other people have started down that road now..

Day 1, I didn't get much chance to look completely through all of the roles and rules and such, but several things stood out very obvious to me. I took a small step of faith that if I had the ability to spot those in shortened time that pretty much everyone else likely is aware of them as well. The first big red light that popped out to me was Chief Rum's quick vote on a player who hasn't played in a while. That seemed odd to me, it seemed like a statement vote of sorts.. Looking through at who exactly would have information at that point and what type of information they would have... it drew me to looking at the roles of Gabriel and Lucifer and that is where my hunch began.

I didn't really do a coin flip per say on which to vote for, but I finally figured it was more likely that Gabriel would get out a "statement vote" against lucifer in case something happened to him later on than the other way around. Thus my fairly quick vote for Anxiety there assuming that Chief was Gabriel. I then grew suspicious of Cronin and Path for coming to Anxiety's defense. I assume/assumed they were the demons.

Saldana has a point that I'm not sure how to resolve in my mind here:

Originally Posted by saldana

the only problem with this logic Alan, is that path vouched for anxiety well before the seer died, or even made his reveal, so i am very inclined to start my COT with them, as they put themselves out in the open when there WAS still a chance of being scanned.

Either Path took a very big leap of faith that he wouldn't get scanned or maybe my teams are reversed in my mind... Like I said on day 1 I think it is.. I think either Anxiety or Chief rum needs to die to resolve this. This is also the big reason I pushed Path alot for a better explanation.. he already put a big target on his and Anxiety's heads might as well help provide us the complete picture instead of leaving us guessing. If Path is indeed an angel and Anxiety is indeed Gabriel, then we should know it so we can target Chief and get rid of him immediately today.


One other comment Saldana had, that somehow my quoting didn't get here that I wanted to look at.. about who Ntn might have chosen to send a message to day 1 and the possibility it caused his death. I did a quick adv.search of this thread to pull up the 6 posts ntn had:

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

could you lend me some money DT?

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

Sounds like a plan cronin..

Work on walls

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

I do not like the early votes on Anxiety either. I am unsure where Chief Rum came up with those.

Vote Chief Rum

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

and watch the Giants go down in flames

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

hey what can I do. I am a Falcons fan

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

Pish posh! Falconing is the sport of nobility. nothing Blasphemous about it.

Now Giants on the other hand.....

most of them don't really tell us much (other than him having good taste in being a Falcons fan).. The only two people he showed trust to was Anxiety and Cronin, and the only person he showed distrust to is Chief.. My assumption is he would use his ability to try to extend a CoT , not find someone he distrusted.. so initial guess would have been Cronin and/or Anxiety once again...

So as you can see, there seems to still be a block of people who all trust each other in Cronin, path, Anxiety vs Chief here... but I still am not fully convinced.. I still think we need to look into that to see which side is on our side.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by saldana

i also am wondering why we have to have Lathum give Oliegirl a voting order...why cant we just pick someone and have them place the vote...if they dont do it, or vote for someone that is not the consensus, then we have an easy target for tomorrow

seems to me like Lathum is over complicating things as a way to make himself seem more important.

That could be, but at least now we have a person who must vote. I think that takes away a variable -- now if anyone else votes, they're screwed.

[Passacaglia]

WORK ON CARPENTRY]

[Passacaglia]

WORK ON CARPENTRY

[Passacaglia]

Just getting those in, and sending the signal that I'm all in for this plan -- not going to say I'm in, then decide to put in a vote later (since these actions can't be undone). I encourage all of you to show your good faith and do the same -- the longer you wait to start building, the less trustworthy you become. I also encourage olie to vote for Neon Chaos (I think I'm the only one who's put in a "vote" for that).

[path12]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Either Path took a very big leap of faith that he wouldn't get scanned or maybe my teams are reversed in my mind.

That would be an pretty unwise play as either an angel (with a cultist around) or as a demon to put such a huge target on myself. I'd like to think I'm a better player than that.

So as you can see, there seems to still be a block of people who all trust each other in Cronin, path, Anxiety vs Chief here... but I still am not fully convinced...

I just want to be clear -- I have no read on Cronin at all (though he seems to be playing for the village to me) and do not claim to know anything about him. I only am vouching for Anxiety.

[Alan T]

Viewing the amount of damage undone to the cathedral last night, the demons can sabotage us long enough for us to run into problems. As others have said, if you think Barkeep is going to let us just build a cathedral and win on day 3 or 4 or 5 or something without killing a demon, then well its either a very poorly written game or you are deluding yourselves.

I don't mind Lathum's plan that much, but I question the judgement of those who are pushing the direction of it. For days I have tried to push people to get to the bottom of the Chief Rum - Anxiety thing (as well as giving us more information about both Path and Cronin. I would still be pushing for Cronin because of his defense of Render, but for the time being will assume that A) Demons don't know the cultist identity and B) Anxiety is indeed good as I've started figuring this morning. Because of that, we really need to see what Chief Rum's allegiance is to help lock that CoT in. I still don't feel as confident as others do about it.

I've waited as long as I could for the "plan" to come forth, but lack of discussion and movement and goof faith actions leave me believing that it will not happen. We've already been told that Neon won't be following the plan, and I am guessing there will be others. The plan doesn't work when everyone isn't on board. So if people won't join me in going after Path, Cronin or Anxiety, perhaps they will follow me in the opposite direction instead. One way or another we need to figure out which members of this block are on which side.

Vote Chief Rum
Vote Chief Rum

[Alan T]

And with that, I'm out till after lynch.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by saldana

i also am wondering why we have to have Lathum give Oliegirl a voting order...why cant we just pick someone and have them place the vote...if they dont do it, or vote for someone that is not the consensus, then we have an easy target for tomorrow

seems to me like Lathum is over complicating things as a way to make himself seem more important.

The reason why I suggested I order Oliegirl is that way there could be no shenanigans, she HAS to vote someone, it's a sure thing. Anyone else who votes is then outing themselves as not acting in our best interests.

I think I am actualy under complicating things by taking the guesswork out of who should cast the single vote.

As for "trying to make myself important" I am just trying to make the best use of my ability

[Lathum]

and it doesn't matter now thatnks to alanT

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Viewing the amount of damage undone to the cathedral last night, the demons can sabotage us long enough for us to run into problems. As others have said, if you think Barkeep is going to let us just build a cathedral and win on day 3 or 4 or 5 or something without killing a demon, then well its either a very poorly written game or you are deluding yourselves.

I don't mind Lathum's plan that much, but I question the judgement of those who are pushing the direction of it. For days I have tried to push people to get to the bottom of the Chief Rum - Anxiety thing (as well as giving us more information about both Path and Cronin. I would still be pushing for Cronin because of his defense of Render, but for the time being will assume that A) Demons don't know the cultist identity and B) Anxiety is indeed good as I've started figuring this morning. Because of that, we really need to see what Chief Rum's allegiance is to help lock that CoT in. I still don't feel as confident as others do about it.

I've waited as long as I could for the "plan" to come forth, but lack of discussion and movement and goof faith actions leave me believing that it will not happen. We've already been told that Neon won't be following the plan, and I am guessing there will be others. The plan doesn't work when everyone isn't on board. So if people won't join me in going after Path, Cronin or Anxiety, perhaps they will follow me in the opposite direction instead. One way or another we need to figure out which members of this block are on which side.

Vote Chief Rum
Vote Chief Rum

Get to the bottom of the Chief Rum - Anxiety thing? The bottom of it is that it's a Day 1 vote made by CR, since he wasn't going to be around the rest of the day! I think you're seriously distracting us from the task at hand.

However, I think we can still salvage the plan and build the Cathedral without you. I call upon Lathum to join oliegirl in voting for the same person, be it Neon Chaos or Alan T.

[Lathum]

clearly AlanT has his own agenda.

I thought there were enough people discussing things to give it more time ( we do have 8 hours untill the deadline)

[st.cronin]

I just want to say that I have never said I trust either Anxiety or path. On day 1 I was arguing against lynching Anxiety - not because I trusted him, but because I thought he was a poor choice for a day 1 lynch.

[path12]

You know, I've been thinking about the plan. The one drawback I see (other than Alan voting on his own) is that it does negate us getting voting information on individuals, and potential good information on late switches to save a demon, etc. If I was bad, and knew that the target was good, it would be easy to pile on and not even really mention a target and just let others take care of it.

Thoughts?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by saldana

sorry, but your "assault" means nothing to me...if you were a demon, you wouldnt know who the cultist is, and the manner in which you seized upon the opportunity to get render lynched is exactly what you would do if you were a demon.

i am not saying that you are, but the fact that you are trying to play off the fact that we got the cultist last night actually makes me suspect you more.
.

Go ahead and suspect me all you want. If I was a demon and I noticed a day one screw up like that I wouldn't point it out.

I would sell out an ally on day 3 or 4 but not day 1, there is no real point to it.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Alan T

So if people won't join me in going after Path, Cronin or Anxiety, perhaps they will follow me in the opposite direction instead. One way or another we need to figure out which members of this block are on which side.

Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see how it is that Chief must be on a different side than the others you mentioned. I think that's quite a leap to take from an early day 1 vote.

[path12]

Dola, not that I have anything against a Chief vote, per se. But I wasn't bothered by his vote as much as I was with your immediate follow-up vote.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by path12

Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see how it is that Chief must be on a different side than the others you mentioned. I think that's quite a leap to take from an early day 1 vote.

I think Alan's thinking is that since the vote came SO early, it had to mean something. Though, since Alan has already gone off on someone for not being aware of his schedule, I'm sure he is aware that CR said he was just putting the vote in since he wouldn't be around for the rest of the day.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by path12

You know, I've been thinking about the plan. The one drawback I see (other than Alan voting on his own) is that it does negate us getting voting information on individuals, and potential good information on late switches to save a demon, etc. If I was bad, and knew that the target was good, it would be easy to pile on and not even really mention a target and just let others take care of it.

Thoughts?

It really doesn't matter at this point, alanT blew it up.

My whole point was to only use a single vote so we can dedicate the rest of our actions on the cathedral.

Now thanks to AlanT we will be costing ourselves 5 actions, Alant's 2 votes plus 3 more to counter them.

So forget my idea, we can just continue to stay disorganized and run around like chickens with our heads cut off.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by path12

Dola, not that I have anything against a Chief vote, per se. But I wasn't bothered by his vote as much as I was with your immediate follow-up vote.

That's what I was thinking day 1, but the way Alan explained it, it makes sense to me now.

[Lathum]

and For the record, I haven't ordered Oliegirl to do anything today and I probably won't since it really is mute at this point.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Lathum

It really doesn't matter at this point, alanT blew it up.

My whole point was to only use a single vote so we can dedicate the rest of our actions on the cathedral.

Now thanks to AlanT we will be costing ourselves 5 actions, Alant's 2 votes plus 3 more to counter them.

So forget my idea, we can just continue to stay disorganized and run around like chickens with our heads cut off.

We can still make it work, but maybe we need the services of the Bishop. Your Lordship, would you deem it prudent to vote in accordance with our Page, to present a united front against the (whatever AlanT is)?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Lathum

It really doesn't matter at this point, alanT blew it up.

My whole point was to only use a single vote so we can dedicate the rest of our actions on the cathedral.

Now thanks to AlanT we will be costing ourselves 5 actions, Alant's 2 votes plus 3 more to counter them.

So forget my idea, we can just continue to stay disorganized and run around like chickens with our heads cut off.

Why not just let those votes stand? I guess Chief Rum will cast two votes for somebody. So then we let the mysterious "tiebreak" happen, or else we have one person cast a tiebreak. Worst case we still only need one vote.

I'm ok with CR being lynched, I've no read on him whatsoever.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

That's what I was thinking day 1, but the way Alan explained it, it makes sense to me now.

If that's the case, why did you vote for Chief twice, instead of Alan?

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Why not just let those votes stand? I guess Chief Rum will cast two votes for somebody. So then we let the mysterious "tiebreak" happen, or else we have one person cast a tiebreak. Worst case we still only need one vote.

I'm ok with CR being lynched, I've no read on him whatsoever.

The tiebreak is not mysterious -- it's outline in the rules.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Why not just let those votes stand? I guess Chief Rum will cast two votes for somebody. So then we let the mysterious "tiebreak" happen, or else we have one person cast a tiebreak. Worst case we still only need one vote.

I'm ok with CR being lynched, I've no read on him whatsoever.

we can do that but we are losng 4 units of work on the cathedral because of Alant's actions.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I just want to say that I have never said I trust either Anxiety or path. On day 1 I was arguing against lynching Anxiety - not because I trusted him, but because I thought he was a poor choice for a day 1 lynch.

What, then, is this relationship between the Peon and the Butcher? Are we to take them for their word? I sincerely think that they might have skinned the proverbial cat, letting their tongue slip, and mastefully manipulated everyone into letting everyone assume that they are not of the darkness?

[Lathum]

Right now I see no reason to not vote for Neon Chaos.

People with their own victory conditions freak me out.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

If that's the case, why did you vote for Chief twice, instead of Alan?

I believe I voted for Chief once, and worked on the cathedral once (on day 1). Day 2 I worked on the cathedral and ultimately voted for Mr. W.

Really, it was a coin flip between CR and Alan T. I forget exactly why I picked CR, but there wasn't a very good reason behind it, whatever it was.

[Lathum]

I also just want to point out ewhen the "cultist" role is killed by wolves it is usualy at night. Very rarely do you see someone who turns out to be a wolf lead that charge

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

What, then, is this relationship between the Peon and the Butcher? Are we to take them for their word? I sincerely think that they might have skinned the proverbial cat, letting their tongue slip, and mastefully manipulated everyone into letting everyone assume that they are not of the darkness?

I don't know their relationship. I think least likely is Gabriel/Lucifer. Either masons or twins/lovers is my best guess, but I'm not at all confident its correct.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I believe I voted for Chief once, and worked on the cathedral once (on day 1). Day 2 I worked on the cathedral and ultimately voted for Mr. W.

Really, it was a coin flip between CR and Alan T. I forget exactly why I picked CR, but there wasn't a very good reason behind it, whatever it was.

Yeah, looking back, it looks like you did. But I replied by saying "TWO votes on him?" Maybe I was seeing double then, because I said that thinking you voted for him twice, and still thought that until now. But there's just one vote there. Weird. I think this orange is freaking me out.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Lathum

It really doesn't matter at this point, alanT blew it up.

My whole point was to only use a single vote so we can dedicate the rest of our actions on the cathedral.

Now thanks to AlanT we will be costing ourselves 5 actions, Alant's 2 votes plus 3 more to counter them.

So forget my idea, we can just continue to stay disorganized and run around like chickens with our heads cut off.

Like I said earlier, it's not a bad plan, it's just that someone always messes it up. With three different factions plus maybe a fourth (Bishop), you can't expect everyone to put the same weight into the same plan.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Right now I see no reason to not vote for Neon Chaos.

People with their own victory conditions freak me out.

I certainly sympathize with this, but he hasn't done us any damage yet, quite the opposite. Neon/saldana was a key voting block on Render.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

We can still make it work, but maybe we need the services of the Bishop. Your Lordship, would you deem it prudent to vote in accordance with our Page, to present a united front against the (whatever AlanT is)?

You first call upon the people to hold an inquisition against me for deciding to actually hold an inquisition, and now ask for my favor since the Lord Liege has gone on an inquisition of his own? Are you toying with me?

I am ambivalent to voting for or against the Lord Liege. I can be swayed to that direction, yes. I am also ambivalent to voting for or against the Novice, who has proven to be quite unuseful during the past couple of days.

Given, the Knight trusts me not... and this pains me to no end.

On the basis of trust earned, and trust given, I am willing to go with whomever the Page decides to vote. I will give you that much, if only to earn your trust, and your belief that I have been tasked by the Lord to lead man to true victory.

The flock has quite painted itself into a corner, and now needs saving.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I certainly sympathize with this, but he hasn't done us any damage yet, quite the opposite. Neon/saldana was a key voting block on Render.

We don't know what has happened behind the scenes. Well, at least I don't. Do you?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

We don't know what has happened behind the scenes. Well, at least I don't. Do you?

I sure don't, in fact it was pretty mysterious. But I'm willing to cut Neon some slack for now.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

You first call upon the people to hold an inquisition against me for deciding to actually hold an inquisition, and now ask for my favor since the Lord Liege has gone on an inquisition of his own? Are you toying with me?

I am ambivalent to voting for or against the Lord Liege. I can be swayed to that direction, yes. I am also ambivalent to voting for or against the Novice, who has proven to be quite unuseful during the past couple of days.

Given, the Knight trusts me not... and this pains me to no end.

On the basis of trust earned, and trust given, I am willing to go with whomever the Page decides to vote. I will give you that much, if only to earn your trust, and your belief that I have been tasked by the Lord to lead man to true victory.

The flock has quite painted itself into a corner, and now needs saving.

Thanks be to ye, Your Lordship. I think we can proceed with our plan now.

And if the Bishop ruins it, we know who to dispose of the next day.

[Abe Sargent]

I think we need more than three votes to two. What about self defense votes? What is others disagree enough with the choices to want to cast their own votes as well?

[path12]

Well then, who are we thinking about? Might as well start talking about it.

[st.cronin]

I'm actually ok with a Chief Rum lynch. Since Alan isn't coming back (apparently), we would just need one vote to keep him from defending himself.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Why not just let those votes stand? I guess Chief Rum will cast two votes for somebody. So then we let the mysterious "tiebreak" happen, or else we have one person cast a tiebreak. Worst case we still only need one vote.

The tiebreak's outlined in the rules.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

I think we need more than three votes to two. What about self defense votes? What is others disagree enough with the choices to want to cast their own votes as well?

Alan's already placed his votes. If we want to go for someone suspicious, who is hampered in his ability to defend himself, he's our guy.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Right now I see no reason to not vote for Neon Chaos.

People with their own victory conditions freak me out.

There's at least three different sets of victory conditions. Do you think, at this point, the good Bishop's interests do not align with our own? Does he not desire to finish the cathedral, or does he lack interest in eliminating the evil in our midst?

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

The tiebreak's outlined in the rules.

Post #628 wants its reason to exist back.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

There's at least three different sets of victory conditions. Do you think, at this point, the good Bishop's interests do not align with our own? Does he not desire to finish the cathedral, or does he lack interest in eliminating the evil in our midst?

mostly it;s the way he is talking.

keep it up and your next

[path12]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

There's at least three different sets of victory conditions. Do you think, at this point, the good Bishop's interests do not align with our own? Does he not desire to finish the cathedral, or does he lack interest in eliminating the evil in our midst?

Just trying to look at it logically, I'd think our Bishop would very much like his cathedral finished. Whether or not he cares about the demons is the question, I believe.

Of course, if he would not be officiating at the cathedral then never mind.

I also don't like separate victory conditions. I would have no problem with either a vote on the Liege or the Bishop today.