Werewolf XXI - Werewolf goes to Hollywood - Game Over!! Death Eaters win!! - Page 13

Desnudo · 01-10-2006, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Because a role reveal gave credence to the lynch. It was not, just a band wagon. Otherwise, nothing much is reflected at this point from the day one votes. Voting for him late or early can be passed as support or subterfuge.

Yes, I agree that the voting doesn't really reveal much. I just sense a team effort from those two. Maybe just paranoia, but that's all anyone really has to go on at this point. Those two are in my suspects' book.

I don't see anything about Sun Devils except maybe he isn't the best at defending himself.

Lathum · 01-10-2006, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnDvls

it is a spell I chant to protect a specific area, hench Neon's house

I'm sorry but that just doesn't make any sense...

if there is already a spell on the whole town wouldn't Neon's house be included in that spell ?

I just don't buy it...

SnDvls · 01-10-2006, 05:43 PM

because my charm/spell is only allowed one use (I guess to make the odds fair for the death eaters). I also have a reparo spell. It allows me to repair something (I'm assuming someone else has something that can be damaged).

Lathum · 01-10-2006, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnDvls

because my charm/spell is only allowed one use (I guess to make the odds fair for the death eaters). I also have a reparo spell. It allows me to repair something (I'm assuming someone else has something that can be damaged).

but you still haven't answered the question...

What is the point of a spell that prevents a DE from doing something that they can't do anyway?

And why didn't you use it last night?

SnDvls · 01-10-2006, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

but you still haven't answered the question...

What is the point of a spell that prevents a DE from doing something that they can't do anyway?

And why didn't you use it last night?

we all knew there was a bodyguard from the roles listed, why wast it.

They can do something hence Barkeep being dead and unless we have a wizard assassian Blade too.

SnDvls · 01-10-2006, 05:48 PM

let me prove it to you tonight. When neon is here tomorrow and he scans me you will see I'm clear.

SnDvls · 01-10-2006, 05:49 PM

dola -
is all a moot point now if more than just you don't NOT vote for me. So you lose me and more than likely Neon too.
or you see that I'm a good wizard like Neon and St. C and we have at least for a day a good gauge of who is what.

Lathum · 01-10-2006, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnDvls

let me prove it to you tonight. When neon is here tomorrow and he scans me you will see I'm clear.

unless you are lying and neon goes unprotected tonight in which case you kill him and we lose a valuable player...

Desnudo · 01-10-2006, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

unless you are lying and neon goes unprotected tonight in which case you kill him and we lose a valuable player...

But wouldn't Neon be dead anyway, if SD is telling the truth?

Edit: and we lynch him, I mean. I don't see the value in picking him over another.

Lathum · 01-10-2006, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desnudo

But wouldn't Neon be dead anyway, if SD is telling the truth?

Edit: and we lynch him, I mean. I don't see the value in picking him over another.

him meaning sd?

SnDvls · 01-10-2006, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

unless you are lying and neon goes unprotected tonight in which case you kill him and we lose a valuable player...

if I am lying do you think the death eaters would let him live another day anyhow? He's the seer. All 20 some odd of us know that as he came out and said it and then cleared St. C after nailing Qwik.

Lathum · 01-10-2006, 05:56 PM

I agree Neon is done for unless someone has the power to protect him. I'm just not buying that it's you. I find it hard to belive there is a potion that exists to prevent something from happening that couldn't happen anyway.

I may be wrong but I have nothing better to go on right now.

Edit: a spell, not a potion.

Desnudo · 01-10-2006, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

him meaning sd?

Yes. Let's look at the scenarios:

1. Sun Devils is telling the truth, he lives and Neon lives another day. If I were Neon, I wouldn't waste the view on SD as being alive would be good enough for now.

2. Sun Devils is telling the truth, he dies and Neon dies. Back to square one except that everyone who voted for SD is now under suspicion.

3. Sun Devils is lying, he lives and Neon dies. SD is then lynched tomorrow.

3. Sun Devils is lying, he dies and Neon dies. Suspicion on those who didn't vote for SD.

So lynching him would provide some insight, but having Neon alive another day (and possibly two if another bodyguard exists) would also provide insight.

Coder · 01-10-2006, 06:05 PM

SnDvls excuse sounds a bit convenient, but I'm still prepared to give him one night... my vote for Coffee stands.. his posts have been far to eager to show he's a wizard.. and his reasoning doesn't hold..

and now I'm off to bed..

Coder · 01-10-2006, 06:06 PM

Dola: Des and I seem to think alike.. that's one name off my list of potential votegetters in the future

Alan T · 01-10-2006, 06:07 PM

Hmmm.. this to me is alot like yesterday. I have very little to go on, and would be happy for a 1 for 1 trade for another DE kill. So thinking about our options here:

1) Sndvls is lying, and is a DE, and we have no other bodyguards. They likely will kill Neon, regardless of what we choose.

2) Sndvls is lying and is a DE, and we do have another bodyguard (who should be protecting Neon tonight), they try to kill Neon, fail, he scans Sndvls and we just lynch him tommorrow.

3) Sndvls is telling the truth, and we manage to not kill an innocent villager here, and keep Neon around at least one more day.

I guess I think if Sndvls is lying, they will kill Neon anyways, and it will at least be proof to us that Sndvls lied and we should lynch him next. I do not see any great reason for him to lie this early in the game. They would be way behind to lose two DE in 3 days in this large of a field.

That said, Sndvls was one of the people on my suspect list, but right now I think we should give him the night to prove if he is telling the truth. Any other bodyguards we have out there should still protect Neon as well. Neon can scan sndvls for us and let us know in the morning for sure if he is good or not.

Other things to look at, right now I count the vote as:
Sndvls 8
wvufan 4
coffee warlord 3

Sndvls and coffee warlord were both on my odd activity list, and wvufan was on my laying low/hiding out list. Perhaps one thing we should work for is what Blade suggested last time. he seemed to hint that we would be able to clear more villagers by use of tiebreakers. If we arent 100% sure on someone, we could at least form a tie that helps us rule out people too.

For now, I think my vote will be:

VOTE Coffee Warlord

Alan T · 01-10-2006, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Yes. Let's look at the scenarios:

1. Sun Devils is telling the truth, he lives and Neon lives another day. If I were Neon, I wouldn't waste the view on SD as being alive would be good enough for now.

2. Sun Devils is telling the truth, he dies and Neon dies. Back to square one except that everyone who voted for SD is now under suspicion.

3. Sun Devils is lying, he lives and Neon dies. SD is then lynched tomorrow.

3. Sun Devils is lying, he dies and Neon dies. Suspicion on those who didn't vote for SD.

So lynching him would provide some insight, but having Neon alive another day (and possibly two if another bodyguard exists) would also provide insight.

You said exactly what I was thinking, just took alot longer for me to type it out

st.cronin · 01-10-2006, 06:08 PM

SnDvls could be an occulmen - in that case, this is the perfect story for him. If we don't lynch him, the Death eaters kill somebody else, then he's cleared.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saldana

Occlumens – (Death Eaters only) you are an expert in the art of Occlumency. If you are viewed by a Legilimens, he will not be able to determine if you are hiding anything from him.

path12 · 01-10-2006, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Ok, well there's not much to go on.

I am going to

VOTE SNDVLS.

He voted for Blade (now a known human and a formidable player) well before Neon's reveal (not to mention Blade's 'reveal' which I still don't understand), and switched over to Qwik well after his fate was sealed.

OK, this is what we're lynching SnDvls for?

I call bullshit. I don't think Cronin is lying, but as he said here, there's not much to go on.

I'm not jumping on this wagon. I'd rather go with someone who is flying way under the radar and hasn't posted much so far.

VOTE PASSACAGLIA

Desnudo · 01-10-2006, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coder

SnDvls excuse sounds a bit convenient, but I'm still prepared to give him one night... my vote for Coffee stands.. his posts have been far to eager to show he's a wizard.. and his reasoning doesn't hold..

and now I'm off to bed..

The thing is, why would you make up a role that only keeps you alive one more night? If you are lying, surely you could think up something that is either slightly vague or harder to prove that would deflect attention off you without forcing you to immediately prove it.

Alan T · 01-10-2006, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desnudo

The thing is, why would you make up a role that only keeps you alive one more night? If you are lying, surely you could think up something that is either slightly vague or harder to prove that would deflect attention off you without forcing you to immediately prove it.

That was my thinking too. Its way too early for a DE to do this I think. They would be down 2 of a possible 4/5/6 DE with 20 of us good guys left.

Lathum · 01-10-2006, 06:11 PM

OK, but lets look at it this way.

I am positive that Neon will be protected tonight if someone has the ability to do that.

Lets say we don't lynch Sndvls tonight and Neon is protected. I think it is safe to say the assumption would be that Sndvls was telling the truth and he would appear in the clear when really we have no way of knowing if it was Sndvls who protected him or not.

I think the move Sndvls is making here is a high Risk/Reward. If he lives and Neon is protected it makes Sndvls look good and he will be in the clear for a while when really we would have no proof it was sndvls who protected him

Alan T · 01-10-2006, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

OK, but lets look at it this way.

I am positive that Neon will be protected tonight if someone has the ability to do that.

Lets say we don't lynch Sndvls tonight and Neon is protected. I think it is safe to say the assumption would be that Sndvls was telling the truth and he would appear in the clear when really we have no way of knowing if it was Sndvls who protected him or not.

I think the move Sndvls is making here is a high Risk/Reward. If he lives and Neon is protected it makes Sndvls look good and he will be in the clear for a while when really we would have no proof it was sndvls who protected him

Thats why the second part of Neon scanning him to verify is very important also. Neon can clear him as good or not.

path12 · 01-10-2006, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

OK, but lets look at it this way.

I am positive that Neon will be protected tonight if someone has the ability to do that.

Lets say we don't lynch Sndvls tonight and Neon is protected. I think it is safe to say the assumption would be that Sndvls was telling the truth and he would appear in the clear when really we have no way of knowing if it was Sndvls who protected him or not.

I think the move Sndvls is making here is a high Risk/Reward. If he lives and Neon is protected it makes Sndvls look good and he will be in the clear for a while when really we would have no proof it was sndvls who protected him

Unless Neon is able to scan and clear him.

st.cronin · 01-10-2006, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

OK, but lets look at it this way.

I am positive that Neon will be protected tonight if someone has the ability to do that.

Lets say we don't lynch Sndvls tonight and Neon is protected. I think it is safe to say the assumption would be that Sndvls was telling the truth and he would appear in the clear when really we have no way of knowing if it was Sndvls who protected him or not.

I think the move Sndvls is making here is a high Risk/Reward. If he lives and Neon is protected it makes Sndvls look good and he will be in the clear for a while when really we would have no proof it was sndvls who protected him

Exactly - if Sn is telling the truth, the Death eaters will kill somebody else. If he is lying, and we don't lynch him, the Death eaters will kill somebody else, and Sn will have been cleared.

Desnudo · 01-10-2006, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

OK, but lets look at it this way.

I am positive that Neon will be protected tonight if someone has the ability to do that.

Lets say we don't lynch Sndvls tonight and Neon is protected. I think it is safe to say the assumption would be that Sndvls was telling the truth and he would appear in the clear when really we have no way of knowing if it was Sndvls who protected him or not.

I think the move Sndvls is making here is a high Risk/Reward. If he lives and Neon is protected it makes Sndvls look good and he will be in the clear for a while when really we would have no proof it was sndvls who protected him

But Barkeep was revealed as one of the bodyguards. So that leaves one at most in my opinion, unless a student took over Barkeep's role. I'd assume that the other bodyguard protected Neon last night as well. Hmmm.

Sun Devils, if you have this power, why didn't you use it last night, since everyone knew that Neon needed to be protected?

Unvote Coffee Warlord

SnDvls · 01-10-2006, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desnudo

But Barkeep was revealed as one of the bodyguards. So that leaves one at most in my opinion, unless a student took over Barkeep's role. I'd assume that the other bodyguard protected Neon last night as well. Hmmm.

Sun Devils, if you have this power, why didn't you use it last night, since everyone knew that Neon needed to be protected?

Unvote Coffee Warlord

see post #605

Lathum · 01-10-2006, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path12

Unless Neon is able to scan and clear him.

i would hate to potentialy waste a scan..

Alan T · 01-10-2006, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

i would hate to potentialy waste a scan..

If he's dead, there is no scan to waste.

SnDvls · 01-10-2006, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

i would hate to potentialy waste a scan..

NOTE: I"m not calling for the person with the cloak to reviel themselves with this post.

Have the person who has the cloak follow me tonight.

Desnudo · 01-10-2006, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnDvls

see post #605

Aah, I see, sorry for missing it. What was the name of your role? I don't remember seeing it mentioned. Thanks.

Coffee Warlord · 01-10-2006, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Aah, I see, sorry for missing it. What was the name of your role? I don't remember seeing it mentioned. Thanks.

He says he's got some goofy item, if I recall correctly. If I read it right, and I'll admit right now I'm moderately confused, it sounds like it emulates a bodyguard for 1 night.

SnDvls · 01-10-2006, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Aah, I see, sorry for missing it. What was the name of your role? I don't remember seeing it mentioned. Thanks.

I'll I really only want to say that I used to work for someone in the minsitry of magic. I don't want to give out my whole role as I'm not up on HP and if I say it all it might tip off the death eaters as to who else is out there.

SnDvls · 01-10-2006, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnDvls

show me what post I SAID I had a good reason? I said go look at why that is all. Prove where I "SAID" that. I think you are trying to read into something that isn't there.

St. C you never found this?

st.cronin · 01-10-2006, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnDvls

St. C you never found this?

All I have found I have put forward. Nothing concrete, I admit, but your defense has been a little bit shady. I have no idea if we're on the right track.

SnDvls · 01-10-2006, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

He says he's got some goofy item, if I recall correctly. If I read it right, and I'll admit right now I'm moderately confused, it sounds like it emulates a bodyguard for 1 night.

from my PM it says I have the Anti-Disapparation Charm that I must chant. and that it is a one time use for me. I guess I read the word charm as an object, but I guess you could make it out to be using charm as in spell. I was more thing an object to go with the other thing I knew the reparo thing.

SnDvls · 01-10-2006, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st.cronin

All I have found I have put forward. Nothing concrete, I admit, but your defense has been a little bit shady. I have no idea if we're on the right track.

you are not. What was shady? you chose me for being late on the qwick bandwagon and now stated this one on me. I trust you St. C. partly from the scan that Neon did on you. I would think if you were hiding anything he would have picked it up in his scan blocking it or not and he will find the same with me. All I'm asking for is a chance to prove myself tonight by not lynching me.

Superman=#54 · 01-10-2006, 06:33 PM

I feel pretty confident in not voting for SnDvls at this point. He makes a case and seem to have enough specific info to make me believe he is on our side. Coffee Warlord and RPI-Fan are on my radar right now.

Coder · 01-10-2006, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnDvls

from my PM it says I have the Anti-Disapparation Charm that I must chant. and that it is a one time use for me. I guess I read the word charm as an object, but I guess you could make it out to be using charm as in spell. I was more thing an object to go with the other thing I knew the reparo thing.

Anti-Disapparation Charm sounds like something preventing people to apparate (teleport) to his location.. which would help him protect himself and Neon (if he would be at the same location as Neon that is)

and Im still going to bed.. it's 1:30 AM dammit

Desnudo · 01-10-2006, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnDvls

I'll I really only want to say that I used to work for someone in the minsitry of magic. I don't want to give out my whole role as I'm not up on HP and if I say it all it might tip off the death eaters as to who else is out there.

All right. I'm not up on HP either. You've got to give us something to go on. I'm not sure on how revealing your role would do anything more than clear you. So the bad guys figure out that there's more roles, who cares? They probably have more roles that we don't know about if that's the case. I'm on your side at this point, but you've got to throw out something other than non-specifics.

st.cronin · 01-10-2006, 06:35 PM

I need a Harry Potter expert to provide a primer on this thing that SunDvls is talking about, because it doesn't make any sense to me.

Coder · 01-10-2006, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I need a Harry Potter expert to provide a primer on this thing that SunDvls is talking about, because it doesn't make any sense to me.

#639

SnDvls · 01-10-2006, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desnudo

All right. I'm not up on HP either. You've got to give us something to go on. I'm not sure on how revealing your role would do anything more than clear you. So the bad guys figure out that there's more roles, who cares? They probably have more roles that we don't know about if that's the case. I'm on your side at this point, but you've got to throw out something other than non-specifics.

post #639 has my "item" although I guess now thinking about it, it could just be what it is, a charm as is spell and not a physical item.

and a response from someone who knows? HP I would guess

st.cronin · 01-10-2006, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coder

#639

Are you a HP expert?

RPI-Fan · 01-10-2006, 06:37 PM

Wow, finally got caught up. I never am able to trust him, and I think he's relishing a chance to sit back this game for once. I just have a feeling...

VOTE MR. WEDNESDAY

Coder · 01-10-2006, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Are you a HP expert?

I've read all the books if that counts

st.cronin · 01-10-2006, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coder

I've read all the books if that counts

Yes, I think it does.

Coder · 01-10-2006, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Yes, I think it does.

Just padding the postcount a bit are we?

SnDvls · 01-10-2006, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

Wow, finally got caught up. I never am able to trust him, and I think he's relishing a chance to sit back this game for once. I just have a feeling...

VOTE MR. WEDNESDAY

RPI I have to ask you not to vote for Mr. W

Please either vote for me or one of the two other vote leaders. You voting away from the group doesn't help me or the group in deciding in your guilt or innocence.

Coder · 01-10-2006, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnDvls

RPI I have to ask you not to vote for Mr. W

Please either vote for me or one of the two other vote leaders. You voting away from the group doesn't help me or the group in deciding in your guilt or innocence.

unless he's a deatheater

edit.. nevermind.. didn't read your post properly.. too sleepy

01-10-2006, 05:56 PM	#612
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	I agree Neon is done for unless someone has the power to protect him. I'm just not buying that it's you. I find it hard to belive there is a potion that exists to prevent something from happening that couldn't happen anyway. I may be wrong but I have nothing better to go on right now. Edit: a spell, not a potion. Last edited by Lathum : 01-10-2006 at 05:58 PM.

01-10-2006, 06:05 PM	#614
Coder College Prospect Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Gothenburg, Sweden	SnDvls excuse sounds a bit convenient, but I'm still prepared to give him one night... my vote for Coffee stands.. his posts have been far to eager to show he's a wizard.. and his reasoning doesn't hold.. and now I'm off to bed.. __________________ IFL - Vermont Mountaineers ~ I am an idiot, walking a tight rope of fortunate things ~

01-10-2006, 06:06 PM	#615
Coder College Prospect Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Gothenburg, Sweden	Dola: Des and I seem to think alike.. that's one name off my list of potential votegetters in the future __________________ IFL - Vermont Mountaineers ~ I am an idiot, walking a tight rope of fortunate things ~

01-10-2006, 06:33 PM	#638
Superman=#54 High School Varsity Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Chicago, IL	I feel pretty confident in not voting for SnDvls at this point. He makes a case and seem to have enough specific info to make me believe he is on our side. Coffee Warlord and RPI-Fan are on my radar right now. __________________ New signature pending....

01-10-2006, 06:35 PM	#641
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	I need a Harry Potter expert to provide a primer on this thing that SunDvls is talking about, because it doesn't make any sense to me. __________________ co-commish: bb-bbcf.net knives out

01-10-2006, 05:43 PM	#603
SnDvls Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2001	because my charm/spell is only allowed one use (I guess to make the odds fair for the death eaters). I also have a reparo spell. It allows me to repair something (I'm assuming someone else has something that can be damaged).

01-10-2006, 05:48 PM	#606
SnDvls Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2001	let me prove it to you tonight. When neon is here tomorrow and he scans me you will see I'm clear.

01-10-2006, 05:49 PM	#607
SnDvls Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2001	dola - is all a moot point now if more than just you don't NOT vote for me. So you lose me and more than likely Neon too. or you see that I'm a good wizard like Neon and St. C and we have at least for a day a good gauge of who is what.

01-10-2006, 06:07 PM	#616
Alan T Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mass.	Hmmm.. this to me is alot like yesterday. I have very little to go on, and would be happy for a 1 for 1 trade for another DE kill. So thinking about our options here: 1) Sndvls is lying, and is a DE, and we have no other bodyguards. They likely will kill Neon, regardless of what we choose. 2) Sndvls is lying and is a DE, and we do have another bodyguard (who should be protecting Neon tonight), they try to kill Neon, fail, he scans Sndvls and we just lynch him tommorrow. 3) Sndvls is telling the truth, and we manage to not kill an innocent villager here, and keep Neon around at least one more day. I guess I think if Sndvls is lying, they will kill Neon anyways, and it will at least be proof to us that Sndvls lied and we should lynch him next. I do not see any great reason for him to lie this early in the game. They would be way behind to lose two DE in 3 days in this large of a field. That said, Sndvls was one of the people on my suspect list, but right now I think we should give him the night to prove if he is telling the truth. Any other bodyguards we have out there should still protect Neon as well. Neon can scan sndvls for us and let us know in the morning for sure if he is good or not. Other things to look at, right now I count the vote as: Sndvls 8 wvufan 4 coffee warlord 3 Sndvls and coffee warlord were both on my odd activity list, and wvufan was on my laying low/hiding out list. Perhaps one thing we should work for is what Blade suggested last time. he seemed to hint that we would be able to clear more villagers by use of tiebreakers. If we arent 100% sure on someone, we could at least form a tie that helps us rule out people too. For now, I think my vote will be: VOTE Coffee Warlord

01-10-2006, 06:11 PM	#622
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	OK, but lets look at it this way. I am positive that Neon will be protected tonight if someone has the ability to do that. Lets say we don't lynch Sndvls tonight and Neon is protected. I think it is safe to say the assumption would be that Sndvls was telling the truth and he would appear in the clear when really we have no way of knowing if it was Sndvls who protected him or not. I think the move Sndvls is making here is a high Risk/Reward. If he lives and Neon is protected it makes Sndvls look good and he will be in the clear for a while when really we would have no proof it was sndvls who protected him

01-10-2006, 06:37 PM	#645
RPI-Fan Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Troy, NY	Wow, finally got caught up. I never am able to trust him, and I think he's relishing a chance to sit back this game for once. I just have a feeling... VOTE MR. WEDNESDAY __________________ Quis custodiets ipsos custodes?

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