Vick Sentenced to 23 Months For Dog Fighting

[Logan]

Those are cool.

[Noop]

Just a small town girl
Livin' in a lonely world
She took the midnight train
Goin' anywhere
Just a city boy
Born and raised in South Detroit
He took the midnight train
Goin' anywhere

A singer in a smokey room
A smell of wine and cheap perfume
For a smile they can share the night
It goes on and on and on and on

Strangers waiting
Up and down the boulevard
Their shadows searching
In the night
Streetlights, people
Livin' just to find emotion
Hidin', somewhere in the night

Workin' hard to get my fill
Everybody wants a thrill
Payin' anything to roll the dice
Just one more time
Some will win
Some will lose
Some were born to sing the blues
Oh, the movie never ends
It goes on and on and on and on

Strangers waiting
Up and down the boulevard
Their shadows searching
In the night
Streetlights, people
Livin' just to find emotion
Hidin', somewhere in the night

[Instrumental Interlude]

Don't stop believin'
Hold on to the feelin'
Streetlights, people
Don't stop believin'
Hold on
Streetlights, people

[Noble_Platypus]

Did the White Sox win the Series again?

[molson]

You could make a list of living things, in order of how morally wrong it is to kill them. Here's a partial list:

Human
Monkey
Dog
Squirrel
Mouse
Rooster
Beetle
Ant
Mosquito
Bacteria

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Noble_Platypus

Did the White Sox win the Series again?

Don't Stop Believing.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by molson

You could make a list of living things, in order of how morally wrong it is to kill them. Here's a partial list:

Hope - Don't Stop Believing
Human
Monkey
Dog
Squirrel
Mouse
Rooster
Beetle
Ant
Mosquito
Bacteria

Fixed it for you.

[wade moore]

:eyeroll:

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Am I overjoyed by someone that has now admitted to running a dog-fighting ring involving over 50 dogs is going to be punished by the law?

hell yes.

I don't see the problem here.

the problem is that he's black wade. You can't rejoice that a black man is going to face the wrath of the legal system for a crime he's admitted to committing. if you do you're a racist asshole.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

the problem is that he's black wade. You can't rejoice that a black man is going to face the wrath of the legal system for a crime he's admitted to committing. if you do you're a racist asshole.

Woah slow down cowboy. I never mentioned race nor did I imply it in this thread. As for a black man facing the wrath of the legal system this isn't anything new in my opinion. I don't not agree with what Vick did because I am against the killing of any animal for purpose of entertainment.

P.S. Don't Stop Believing

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Noop

Woah slow down cowboy. I never mentioned race nor did I imply it in this thread. As for a black man facing the wrath of the legal system this isn't anything new in my opinion. I don't not agree with what Vick did because I am against the killing of any animal for purpose of entertainment.

P.S. Don't Stop Believing

fair nuff

[Fonzie]

Originally Posted by molson

You could make a list of living things, in order of how morally wrong it is to kill them. Here's a partial list:

Human
Monkey
Dog
Squirrel
Mouse
Rooster
Beetle
Ant
Mosquito
Bacteria

Having just gotten back from my son's soccer practice, I can honestly say that I would have no problem with a mosquito genocide. Kill 'em all, no moral problems here.

[Ben E Lou]

Something fascinating...

Originally Posted by Indictment

...in or about May 2001, (Tony) Taylor identified the property at 1915 Moonlight Road, Smithfield, Va. as being a suitable location for housing and training pit bulls for fighting...


...on or about June 29, 2001, Vick paid approximately $34,000 for the purchase of property located at 1915 Moonlight Road. . .From this point forward, the defendants used this property as the main staging area for housing and training pit bulls in the dog fighting venture and hosting dog fights...

Vick grew up in the projects. In late April of 2001, the kid is drafted 1(1). I don't remember protracted contract talks, but it's probably safe to assume that it took at least a few weeks to get the deal done, the contract signed, and the money in the bank. Did he even have time to do the normal thing that kids from the projects do when they sign these big deals: buy a house for his mama? Not sure, but what is clear is that roughly two months after the draft, three days after his 21st birthday, the kid is closing on a property to be used for dogfighting.


I must say that I hope he does the apology/talk show circuit thing, if for no other reason than I'd love to hear the rest of the story.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I must say that I hope he does the apology/talk show circuit thing, if for no other reason than I'd love to hear the rest of the story.

Oh, to explain this comment...

Vick must come clean

Monday, August 20, 2007, 03:10 PM
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution



Even now, with Michael Vick doing the inevitable on Monday by admitting his guilt to the feds, the gory details remain over his role in illegal gambling and the Virginia felony that is dogfighting. That’s why there is something he must do for the sake of the Falcons, the NFL, his delusional followers and himself.


He must become the anti-Pete Rose, which means Vick must come absolutely clean about his self-inflicted scandal that keeps dominating the news cycles, and he must do so now. Not only that, he must do it dramatically enough to make you believe that he believes what he is saying about confession and repentance. He must do so himself and not through lawyers, agents, PR folks, Falcons honchos — like he has been wont to do, including with his latest apology through attorney Billy Martin.


If Vick bares his soul in public, and if his delusional followers stop encouraging him to stay defiant by excusing away everything he does wrong (the water bottle thing, the flipping off the fans, the stiffing of the U.S. Congressmen, the Ron Mexico deal, the watch incident), he will be forgiven by more than just a Higher Power. He will be forgiven by just about anybody you can imagine.


“Oh, I agree,” said Dr. Patrick J. Devine, professor of psychology at Kennesaw State University and a former sports psychologist for the Braves. “The mindset of the public is like, ‘Give it up, Michael. Just admit that you screwed up and let’s move on.’ I mean, there is nobody out there who relishes seeing him go to trial and go through all of that stuff. Look. The American public likes heroes so much that they always want to forgive them quickly.”


Rose wouldn’t know, because he wasn’t paying attention. Just as Richard Nixon never admitted to involvement in the Watergate break-in or cover up, and just as Woody Hayes never admitted to slugging that Clemson player, Rose never admitted to gambling on baseball in general or his Cincinnati Reds in particular.


Well, Rose sort of did nearly a decade later by writing a book, but nowhere among the pages did the all-time hits leader fully explain or apologize for the thing that got him permanently banned from baseball. Just like Nixon and Hayes, Rose convinced himself that the lie that he created surrounding his “thing” was actually the truth. Just like Nixon and Hayes, Rose was defiant over his thing.


Which brings us to Vick: He needs to stop anything that resembles defiance (“Everywhere I go around the world, people love Michael Vick,” he said into a television camera after he was slapped with those illegal dogfighting charges). He needs to avoid blaming others for his predicament, because it is his house associated with this dogfighting mess, and it is his “friends” who said they were involved. Mostly, he needs to admit to everything.
Like now.


Times. Dates. Motives.


Then Vick needs to cry on Barbara Walters’ couch on national television. After that, he needs to call Larry King. Then he needs to do “60 Minutes,” and with legendary bulldog Mike Wallace prodding and poking, he needs to pull a Jimmy Swaggart. Through it all, Vick needs to save a few sobs for Bryant Gumbel on HBO’s “Real Sports,” but you know exactly where I’m going: Oprah.


What is more amazing than America’s willingness to forgive anybody for just about anything (including the hanging and the drowning of dogs) is how many folks don’t understand what I just said.


Why?


“Part of it is ego, and over the years, people always have done just about everything for them, and made excuses for them, and spun stories certain ways when they’ve gotten in trouble,” said Devine, who inadvertently was describing how Falcons officials have joined Vick’s delusional followers in coddling the guy for years. “No doubt, we pamper our athletes so much that they begin to look for that knight in shining armor coming over the hill whenever they get into a tough spot.”


The only thing coming over the hill now for Vick is more trouble, and it is holding a mighty sword. Still, he can block it with the shield of an open heart.


That and lots of tears.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I wonder ... am I the only person who thinks it's at least 50-50 that he changes his mind before Monday?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Did he even have time to do the normal thing that kids from the projects do when they sign these big deals: buy a house for his mama? Not sure, but what is clear is that roughly two months after the draft, three days after his 21st birthday, the kid is closing on a property to be used for dogfighting.

Sorry for harping on this, but the more I reflect on it, the more bizarre the timing seems. It seems safe to say that getting the dogfighting operation up an running was clearly a very high priority, maybe even his *top* priority, after getting his first check.

[Yossarian]

clearly a very high priority

You're right.. that is very bizzare.

It's almost like a parody of itself. The young guy who dreams of fighting dogs and uses his NFL Scholarship to fund his dreams...

[miked]

Originally Posted by Noop

Hmm... I was not serious. I was merely pointing out that some of you are alittle to over joyed by this news thats all.

We rescued our dog from a humane society down here and she has 2 beebees under her skin from where her previous owners shot her with a pellet gun when she was a pup. So yeah, fuck Vick and anyone else who derives pleasure from the torture of other creatures. Especially high profile ones that lie about it. I would love to find the people that shot pellets at my dog and make an example of them, but I can't afford that. Maybe his guilty plea will make those rednecks down the street that keep their dog chained to a tree all day think twice about it.

[wade moore]

FWIW - part of it for me is I know someone that runs a Pit Bull Rescue Shelter that has several of the dogs from the Vick property. What I hear about them (many of them will never be able to be adopted or socialize with other dogs again and forced to leave in solitary runs.. plus the scars, etc, etc) makes me sick..

[Kodos]

Isn't Ookie's entertainment and status among his friends more important than the well-being of an animal?

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Noop

What about bum fights?

I find them and cock fighting reprehensible as well.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Something fascinating...

Bear in mind that the timing of the money probably wasn't an issue. After having been drafted 1(1), any number of lending institutions would be happy to loan him all the money he needed, as his ability to pay is basically a given.

As for the timing of the property purchase, the best possible way this could spin for Vick would be that it was 2001, when the real estate market was still hot, and the location was so good for what they had planned, his friends convinced him to act ASAP. Also, with his pending huge payday, getting a house for his mama would, again, be pretty easy, as long as someone took the time to actually find one. The financials/closing could all be done by lawyers/brokers/accountants with him hardly being present.

That's the best possible way I could see it being spun. But yes, the full explanation could be interesting, to say the least.

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Oh, to explain this comment...

I agree. If Vick wants to be anything but a pariah when he comes back, he's going to have to do something big, and make it undeniably clear that he's remorseful about this. That's why I suggested, as a litmus test, he could come back and donate 90% of his earnings to a humane society. Giving up that kind of money would be a pretty clear signal.

But who knows.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I wonder ... am I the only person who thinks it's at least 50-50 that he changes his mind before Monday?

I must admit that has not crossed my mind at all. He seems so absolutely, irrevocably screwed at this point that the guilty plea coming now is the only thing in this whole mess that makes sense.

That would definitely take this story to the "next level" of absurdity, wouldn't it?

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Something fascinating...

[/i]


Vick grew up in the projects. In late April of 2001, the kid is drafted 1(1). I don't remember protracted contract talks, but it's probably safe to assume that it took at least a few weeks to get the deal done, the contract signed, and the money in the bank. Did he even have time to do the normal thing that kids from the projects do when they sign these big deals: buy a house for his mama? Not sure, but what is clear is that roughly two months after the draft, three days after his 21st birthday, the kid is closing on a property to be used for dogfighting.


I must say that I hope he does the apology/talk show circuit thing, if for no other reason than I'd love to hear the rest of the story.

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Sorry for harping on this, but the more I reflect on it, the more bizarre the timing seems. It seems safe to say that getting the dogfighting operation up an running was clearly a very high priority, maybe even his *top* priority, after getting his first check.

Great points and "harping" on them is nothing to be sorry for, IMHO it bears repeating in any conversation about Vick. I hadn't thought about the timing of it all with regard to Vick's rookie year, I'm glad you took the time to post your thoughts.

[Buccaneer]

Do you think he was at least involved as a spectator and/or participant during college and perhaps earlier?

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Do you think he was at least involved as a spectator and/or participant during college and perhaps earlier?

I am going to say 'yes'

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Noop

I am going to say 'yes'

Yeah, I'm not sure that there is any doubt about that at this point. I don't think you jump in immediately after payday if you haven't at least had a "taste" prior to that...

[albionmoonlight]

Just in case people don't realize--In the federal system, the plea and sentencing are two separate events. He will plead guilty on Monday, but we will not know his sentence until his sentencing hearing, which will be at some point in the future.

[Buccaneer]

My point was that maybe he grew up in that culture and was just waiting for the obvious time to become a major player. That shouldn't be any surprise?

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

My point was that maybe he grew up in that culture and was just waiting for the obvious time to become a major player. That shouldn't be any surprise?

Not sure whether he "grew up" in the culture - although knowing the area he's from it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities. But it seems to me that at a minimum he must have at least attended a fight (fights?) before he made the purchase of the house - whether he was introduced to it in college or while growing up in a pretty rough section of Newport News, VA - who knows.

[Ben E Lou]

Surprise? No. But in a non-comical way, it reminds me of this...

Intro:

Good Morning boys and girls, i'm your
substitute teacher, Mr. Buckwort
the topic Fo' today is, what you wanna be when you grow up
you, over there in the jean shirt, what you wanna
be when you grow up?
- i wanna be a police officer
alright, that's a pretty good profession
you over there in that black shirt
what you wanna be when you grow?
- i wanna be a fire man
alright, that's a pretty good profession too
you, back there in those french braids, what's yo name?
- my name is Snoop
alright Snoop, what you wanna be when you grow up?
- i wanna be a motherfuckin hustla, ya betta ask somebody

[Bee]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I wonder ... am I the only person who thinks it's at least 50-50 that he changes his mind before Monday?

I don't think there's any way he changes his mind now. I think he knows he is screwed and just wants to avoid the public airing of all the dirty details. At this point he still has the chance to go the "redemption" route after jail. There's plenty of people out there that just know that he was caught dogfighting and don't understand what that implies or the specific details of Vick's case. If this drags out over 6+ months with all the various grisly details coming out through the trial, he'll become vilified even more making a potential comeback virtually impossible IMO. Also, I think there's more of a chance the NFL will allow him back at some point if he pleads out now and doesn't bring all the bad attention onto the league during the season.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by wade moore

FWIW - part of it for me is I know someone that runs a Pit Bull Rescue Shelter that has several of the dogs from the Vick property. What I hear about them (many of them will never be able to be adopted or socialize with other dogs again and forced to leave in solitary runs.. plus the scars, etc, etc) makes me sick..

I thought I saw on a tv special that all dogs involved in dogfighting were considered dangerous and would be euthanized at some point and none were eligible for adoption. They even implied that the pups were euthanized if they rescued from a dogfighting home. Is that not the case? Or maybe it varies by state?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Bee

Also, I think there's more of a chance the NFL will allow him back at some point...

IMHO there's barely a snowball's chance in hell of this happening.

[MikeVic]

I don't know if this has been talked about here... but in case people were wondering whether the CFL could be an option for him if he got a lifetime ban from the NFL... a sports show was talking about it last night, and they said the CFL has agreed to follow any disciplanary actions the NFL gives out to players.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

I don't know if this has been talked about here... but in case people were wondering whether the CFL could be an option for him if he got a lifetime ban from the NFL... a sports show was talking about it last night, and they said the CFL has agreed to follow any disciplanary actions the NFL gives out to players.

wussies

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I wonder ... am I the only person who thinks it's at least 50-50 that he changes his mind before Monday?

I wouldn't say it is 50/50 but the thought has crossed my mind. I don't really think he believes he did anything that wrong. I think he sees this as being a minor crime. If he truly believes that the judge will sentence him to more than the recommended time say for example 3-4 years, I could see withdraw his plea.

Can someone more knowledgeable than I am explain what limits the guidelines place on the judge if any? Everyone says that the judge could sentence him to the max but would not. What stops the judge from deciding that this person needs to serve the max time no matter what his plea was. What are the benefits to giving him less time?

[Bee]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

IMHO there's barely a snowball's chance in hell of this happening.

I think there's a 50-50 chance if he plays everything right, but IMO that doesn't include allowing this to go to trial.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Bee

I thought I saw on a tv special that all dogs involved in dogfighting were considered dangerous and would be euthanized at some point and none were eligible for adoption. They even implied that the pups were euthanized if they rescued from a dogfighting home. Is that not the case? Or maybe it varies by state?

The dogs are kept alive as evidence until the case has run its course. After that they will be euthanized.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

wussies

Hey, if it's only a 3-year suspension and can't make an NFL team after that... I'm sure the CFL will welcome him with open arms.

[cartman]

I read in an AJC article that a lot of Vick jerseys were donated to the Humane Society. They are using them as dog blankets and to clean up after the dogs. How fitting.

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

I don't know if this has been talked about here... but in case people were wondering whether the CFL could be an option for him if he got a lifetime ban from the NFL... a sports show was talking about it last night, and they said the CFL has agreed to follow any disciplanary actions the NFL gives out to players.

Didn't Ricky Williams and Ontario Smith go there while serving drug suspensions?

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

The dogs are kept alive as evidence until the case has run its course. After that they will be euthanized.

Not true in this case.

Now it is possible that some of the dogs never fully fought, were only bait dogs (I know one specifically was), etc - rather than dogs that were experienced fighters.

But I guarantee you that at least a few dogs from the Vick house are at a Pit Dog rescue shelter and will not be euthanized.

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Just in case people don't realize--In the federal system, the plea and sentencing are two separate events. He will plead guilty on Monday, but we will not know his sentence until his sentencing hearing, which will be at some point in the future.

I read that sentencing was going to be in November or December.
Which means even if he only gets a year, he will not start his sentence until the end of the year.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Surtt

Didn't Ricky Williams and Ontario Smith go there while serving drug suspensions?

Yes they did, but I believe this is some new agreement... because the NFL weren't too happy about situations like that.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Can someone more knowledgeable than I am explain what limits the guidelines place on the judge if any? Everyone says that the judge could sentence him to the max but would not. What stops the judge from deciding that this person needs to serve the max time no matter what his plea was. What are the benefits to giving him less time?

This is an evolving area of law. The Supreme Court decided a case involving this last term, and another one is on deck for this term.

Here is the simple nutshell:

The defendant pleads guilty or is found guilty.

The crime will carry a statutory minimum and a statutory maximum range. (I think in this case the minimum would be zero and the maximum would be 5 years, but I don't know that for sure). A defendant cannot be sentenced outside of that range, which tends to be rather large--like the 0 to 5 year range that I think applies in this case.

The Judge, with the help of the United States Probation Office, then uses The United States Sentencing Guidelines to compute a "Guidelines Sentence." This is a much narrower sentencing range, computed by taking into account such factors as whether the defendant was a ring leader, whether human life was put at risk by the crime, the amount of money stolen, the amount of drugs sold, the defendant's criminal history, etc.

The Guidelines Sentence tends to be a pretty narrow range--say 24-30 months might be one that ends up applying to Vick.

The Judge then has an option. If he sentences the defendant within the Guidelines range, then that sentence is "presumptively reasonable," and is almost certain not to be overturned on appeal. (And I mean almost certain. The 4th Circuit (the appellate court over Vick's case) has never overturned a sentence within the Guidelines range.)

If, however, the Judge thinks that the Guidelines range is either too high or too low, then he can do a "variance" sentence. Basically, he has to explain why the Guidelines range is not appropriate and why another sentence is more appropriate.

If the Judge does this, then there is more of a chance that he will be overturned. Basically, the larger the variance, the more justification needed.

Though it is still evolving, it seems that most district court variances stick. The ones that are being overturned tend to be very large variances on the order of 400% or more.

As for what constrains the judge . . . he is obligated to impose a sentence "sufficient but not greater than necessary" to

Originally Posted by 18usc3553(a)

(A) reflect the seriousness of the offense, to promote respect for the law, and to provide just punishment for the offense;
(B) to afford adequate deterrence to criminal conduct;
(C) to protect the public from further crimes of the defendant; and
(D) to provide the defendant with needed educational or vocational training, medical care, or other correctional treatment in the most effective manner;

I don't know if that helps or not.

[Chubby]

Vick's strategy at the moment seems to be "plead guilty, appeal the sentence no matter what it is" unless there's some stipulation in the plea that would prevent appeals (if that's even possible).

The Chargers look even better with this whole mess.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Not true in this case.

Now it is possible that some of the dogs never fully fought, were only bait dogs (I know one specifically was), etc - rather than dogs that were experienced fighters.

But I guarantee you that at least a few dogs from the Vick house are at a Pit Dog rescue shelter and will not be euthanized.

Well, that's good news, then.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Well, that's good news, then.

And that's not to say that some aren't euthanized. I just know some are not.

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Vick's strategy at the moment seems to be "plead guilty, appeal the sentence no matter what it is" unless there's some stipulation in the plea that would prevent appeals (if that's even possible).

The Chargers look even better with this whole mess.

If he appealed, I assume the Feds would no longer be bound by the agreement and could go ahead and charge him with the actual dog fighting and racketeering charges.

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by wade moore

And that's not to say that some aren't euthanized. I just know some are not.

I was watching Animal Planet last night and whatever show was on was dealing with a shelter that accepted dogs that had been breed and involved in dogfighting. Of the 4 dogs they were profiling, only one was able to be "de programmed" and not euthanized. It was very sad.