FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[RainMaker]

Jesse Jackson asking the protesters for donations to his organization might be the lowest thing that has happened yet.

[Lathum]

This thread is getting a bit too close to a race baiting argument

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Lathum

This thread is getting a bit too close to a race baiting argument

Do you not think race was a factor in the policing of this community and therefore a factor in this case?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Do you not think race was a factor in the policing of this community and therefore a factor in this case?

Of course it was, but IMO when people start accusing other of being arrogant or privileged it begs a response that will inevitably come off a "racist."

Again, just my opinion. Feel free to carry on your conversation any way you see fit.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Of course it was, but IMO when people start accusing other of being arrogant or privileged it begs a response that will inevitably come off a "racist."

Again, just my opinion. Feel free to carry on your conversation any way you see fit.

I think this is race baiting:

Ferguson Cop to Protesters “Bring it, all you fucking animals! Bring it!� - YouTube

So are the stats here:

http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/2013/reports/161.pdf

So is this:



And people wonder why this community acts the way it does towards the police department?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Do you not think race was a factor in the policing of this community and therefore a factor in this case?

Not nearly as big a factor as it is in the hoopla & handwringing.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Of course it was, but IMO when people start accusing other of being arrogant or privileged it begs a response that will inevitably come off a "racist."

Again, just my opinion. Feel free to carry on your conversation any way you see fit.

+1

[molson]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Do you not think race was a factor in the policing of this community and therefore a factor in this case?

Originally Posted by Blackadar

And people wonder why this community acts the way it does towards the police department?

How can you know for sure what the officer's mindset was in this case? Or any individual officer?

If it's appropriate for people to assume all cops are racist based on statistics, and their experiences, is it appropriate for police officers to assume all black people are violent based on statistics and the officers' experiences?

I don't think either is appropriate, so please nobody jump down my throat on that. I think everybody deserves respect until they individually show they're not entitled to it. For officers in the line of duty, it goes even further, they should show respect and professionalism even after the person they're interacting with makes it clear that the respect is not mutual, and even after they're proven they're not worthy of respect. But, if someone like you has made up your mind about a person going in, just because of the group they belong to, none of that matters at all. None of the professionalism in the world matters at all because you only see racism, you only see the flaws of a collective group. Like nol's post above - even if a stop is completely uneventful and professional, well, the officer was still a racist, they just dodged a bullet that time. So there can be no "good" police behavior with that mindset, it's literally impossible. It's the same ignorant, limited thinking that a racial bigot has. I can understand why a few officers don't bother when they're going to be hated by so many in these communities no matter what they do. Like I was saying earlier, it takes courage on both sides to improve situations like this. Courage to be professional and restrained in situations where you feel you're not respected, and courage to see people as individuals. I think there is a ton of courage on both sides, otherwise things would be a lot worse.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by molson

How can you know for sure what the officer's mindset was in this case? Or any individual officer?

If it's appropriate for people to assume all cops are racist based on statistics, and their experiences, is it appropriate for police officers to assume all black people are violent based on statistics and the officers' experiences?

I don't think either is appropriate, so please nobody jump down my throat on that. I think everybody deserves respect until they individually show they're not entitled to it. For officers in the line of duty, it goes even further, they should show respect and professionalism even after the person they're interacting with makes it clear that the respect is not mutual, and even after they're proven they're not worthy of respect. But, if someone like you has made up your mind about a person going in, just because of the group they belong to, none of that matters at all. None of the professionalism in the world matters at all because you only see racism, you only see the flaws of a collective group. Like nol's post above - even if a stop is completely uneventful and professional, well, the officer was still a racist, they just dodged a bullet that time. So there can be no "good" police behavior with that mindset, it's literally impossible. It's the same ignorant, limited thinking that a racial bigot has.

Nice try, but entirely incorrect. Please show where "someone like me" said there can be no good police department, or all cops are bad. In fact, you'll find a post on the last page that says it's the leadership that takes the brunt of the blame for police departments that go over the line - NOT the average line cop. Talk about generalizations....

Now to be specific, since you don't get the above posts:

"Do you not think race was a factor in the policing of this community and therefore a factor in this case?"

That swings both ways both with the officer AND the suspect. Why you interpret this comment to be against the officer only is a real mystery.

"And people wonder why this community acts the way it does towards the police department?"

Again, this swings both ways.

Now I agree when you're talking about the responsibility of respect that should go both ways, but is primarily incumbent upon the officer since they're supposed to be the professional. Unfortunately, all too often this doesn't happen in minority communities. It's not every officer or every interaction, but it doesn't have to be. Even witnessing one overaggressive, power-hungry, racist encounter with a cop will color your interaction with anyone in uniform for the rest of your life. Witness 10 and you'll think you never saw a good cop in your life. See 25 and you'll see them as the enemy. And there's enough bad, hyperaggressive, racist and power hungry cops that you'll see many interactions like that in poor, minority communities - and the "blue wall" protects these guys to the detriment of all. The overuse of aggressive military tactics and doctrine is the antithesis of showing respect. While mentally limited people can talk about how it might save some officers' life someday under various overblown hypothetical situations (this isn't directed at you Molson), we already know it costs the lives of the civilians the police are supposed to be "protecting and serving".

[molson]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Nice try, but entirely incorrect. Please show where "someone like me" said there can be no good police department, or all cops are bad. In fact, you'll find a post on the last page that says it's the leadership that takes the brunt of the blame for police departments that go over the line.

Talk about generalizations....do you even read before you post?

The two posts I quoted in the last post.

In the first, you've proclaimed that "race was a factor in the policing of this community", therefore "it was a factor in this case". What do you mean by that if not making racial assumptions about this individual officer?

In the 2nd, you reference statistics and a scary photo as justification for why "this community acts the way it does towards the police department". Earlier, you harped on that Denver example too, finding relevance to this case in that. If that's on the table, then so is stats and anecdotal evidence about the criminal behavior of black people generally, and how that may fairly impact the behavior of police. (And again, I don't think EITHER is on the table, because neither should have anything to do with how individuals are judged or what assumptions we make about individuals.)

[molson]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Now I agree when you're talking about the responsibility of respect that should go both ways, but is primarily incumbent upon the officer since they're supposed to be the professional. Unfortunately, all too often this doesn't happen in minority communities. It's not every officer or every interaction, but it doesn't have to be. Even witnessing one overaggressive, power-hungry, racist encounter with a cop will color your interaction with anyone in uniform for the rest of your life. Witness 10 and you'll think you never saw a good cop in your life. See 25 and you'll see them as the enemy.

If that's acceptable than maybe we shouldn't bother. Pull the police out of these cities. You can do all the right things as a department, have the best hiring practices, hire from the community, train on racial tolerance and understanding, fire bad officers, appropriately represent minorities on the force. You're still going to have occasional bad incidents because of the nature of the job. You're still going to have fuck-ups. And you're still going to have bad situations where it's not clear if something's criminal, a innocent fuck-up, or justified (but which a certain portion will always assume, no matter what, that it was a race-based execution). Communities with more crime are going to have more police activity and more bad incidents, and bad officers, statistically.

If good officers are seen as the same as bad in these communities, and the same tension is going to be there no matter what, then it makes sense to put the better officers on different patrols where they can actually do good.

I'm being cynical for the point of emphasizing this point, because I don't really believe that at all. I'd never give up wanting to improve a police department, never would want to lose pride and stop trying to be a good officer or an ethical and professional member of the law enforcement system, I'd never want to be so cynical that I don't recognize that most people don't try to increase this hostility, but actually want mutual peace and respect and understanding. But when you read threads like this, and the assumptions people make, you do wonder what the point is, for just a minute.

You talk about expecting more from police officers because they're the professionals, and I agree, but as we saw earlier, that's a minority view in this thread. Only a couple of us said we'd trust a random police officer over a random citizen. The majority trusted officers less. In that environment especially, we should expect more from citizens, or else we're actually putting them lower on the totem poll than the police.

Edit: Imagine you're an objectively good cop in Missouri, by whatever standard you want to judge that, beloved by everyone. If you're working in Ferguson, don't you want to get the hell out there? Where not only is there this guilt by association in the community, but among the national media as well. It's a place where black people can be hostile to officers just because of their role, and people broadly agree that that's the correct thing to do. (Not all black people of course, I believe most want good police officers and a better relationship with the department, and are as frustrated by the cycle of hostility as I am, and actually want to end or reduce it, as opposed to fanning those flames for whatever personal goal). But if you're a good cop and you have options, fuck Ferguson, right? The crazy thing is, a lot of cops would welcome the challenge. And it's too bad so many automatically would see them as racist just because they put themselves in a tough position and wanted to take on that challenge. It'd be easier to go to the suburbs and leave Ferguson for the younger officers and those officers without options. A few posters have made cracks about how officers only have these jobs because they can't get better ones. I think a lot of the ones with options would glady take those rather than work in Ferguson, so that can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If we see police as a collective evil, judge them as a group, validate or encourage hostility by minority communities - then more officers with other options are going to take them.

[Shepp]

Originally Posted by nol

I was under the assumption that the relevant statistics were widely available and could be interpreted by anyone with more than a middle-school education in math.

If you're really that lazy, try this one: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/op...ite-power.html

If you look at this article it points out that the disparity rate for traffic stops in Ferguson is well below the statewide average.

Police stops in Ferguson: What are the numbers? : News

It also worth mentioning that the attorney general's stats, cited in the first article, show that even though blacks are stopped more than whites they receive citations at about the same rate.

Also, even though the number of searches are higher overall for blacks about 63% of those searches are being conducted because they driver was being arrested. When you look at the number of arrests 70% of those are because the driver had an outstanding warrant already.

Of course none of that fits your claim that the Ferguson police are targeting blacks. So why would you pay attention to any of that?

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Do we know that the officer had a taser?
They aren't standard issue everywhere.

Seems like given the other equipment they have it would be a bit ridiculous if they didn't issue tasers.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Shepp

If you look at this article it points out that the disparity rate for traffic stops in Ferguson is well below the statewide average.

Police stops in Ferguson: What are the numbers? : News

It also worth mentioning that the attorney general's stats, cited in the first article, show that even though blacks are stopped more than whites they receive citations at about the same rate.

Also, even though the number of searches are higher overall for blacks about 63% of those searches are being conducted because they driver was being arrested. When you look at the number of arrests 70% of those are because the driver had an outstanding warrant already.

Of course none of that fits your claim that the Ferguson police are targeting blacks. So why would you pay attention to any of that?

The disparity index for blacks in Ferguson is 1.37. Yes, it is lower than the statewide average (1.59) but it is still a lot closer to the statewide average than it is to the NO DISPARITY score of 1.0. It is also on the uptick over the last three years. A score higher than 1 means there IS a disparity.

Additionally, the disparity index for whites in Ferguson is .38 versus a statewide index of .96. Are all the whites in Ferguson 30 years older than the average white in Missouri? No.

Yes, it is good to be white in Ferguson. Particularly since traffic stops involving blacks are searched more than whites (12.1 v 6.9), even though contraband is found more when whites are searched (22% v 34%).

[Subby]

Sorry - I edited my post to take out the combativeness. No reason to be shitty about this.

[Shepp]

Originally Posted by Subby

Way to cherry pick the shit that fits your argument.

The disparity index for blacks in Ferguson is 1.37. Yes, it is lower than the statewide average (1.59) but it is still a lot closer to the statewide average than it is to the NO DISPARITY score of 1.0. It is also on the uptick over the last three years. A score higher than 1 means there IS a disparity.

Additionally, the disparity index for whites in Ferguson is .38 versus a statewide index of .96. Are all the whites in Ferguson 30 years older than the average white in Missouri? No.

Yes, it is good to be white in Ferguson. Particularly since traffic stops involving blacks are searched more than whites (12.1 v 6.9), even though contraband is found more when whites are searched (22% v 34%).

Because looking at nothing but the totals isn't cherry picking? Also, as I pointed out in my post, over half of the searches were conducted because the driver was being arrested. If you are placing someone under arrest you are going to search them and their vehicle as a matter of procedure and not necessarily because you expect to find contraband.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Subby

Yes, it is good to be white in Ferguson. Particularly since traffic stops involving blacks are searched more than whites (12.1 v 6.9), even though contraband is found more when whites are searched (22% v 34%).

As he pointed out, that latter number is meaningless unless you have the basis for the search. If there's an arrest warrant, the car's getting searched. That's not even in the officer's control. It's not a judgment call, and its probably the most common lawful justification to search a car. What is the disparity of white v. black in terms of active arrest warrants? We need that info to make sense of that number. Now, we could definitely turn that back around, and say that blacks possibly have more active arrest warrants because of economic injustice and societal racism, and I'd be all ears. But you're making the assumption that all of these are judgement calls, and that if officers were all race-blind, those numbers would all be equal, and that's definitely not the case. (Edit: Though I wonder if people will feel better and if there'd be more harmony is departments ditched the concepts of search incident to arrest and probable cause and just made sure they acted proportionally with the community's racial makeup)

[Subby]

Those are good points. It just seems like there is an issue there when the disparity is so high between black stops/white stops and black searches/white searches.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Subby

Those are good points. It just seems like there is an issue there when the disparity is so high between black stops/white stops and black searches/white searches.

There is a disparity, your numbers aren't wrong. I'm just saying the reason is not necessarily all about racist police officers making individual racist decisions. Officers are the front lines, and very visible, but at some point, they're only a reflection and extension of society. Just taking one obvious one, as a whole, blacks are poorer than whites in this country. There's a million complex reasons for that that have nothing to do with police. But police are on the front lines of dealing with one of the consequences of that reality. Because of societal racism, because of economic injustice, police, even the good ones, will interact with black people at a disproportionate rate.

[Young Drachma]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...-violence.html

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Subby

Those are good points. It just seems like there is an issue there when the disparity is so high between black stops/white stops and black searches/white searches.

Maybe the issue is behavior.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

IJReview.com reporting that nearly a dozen eyewitnesses have confirmed the police officer's version of events that led to Mr. Brown being shot.

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/1693...icers-account/

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

IJReview.com reporting that nearly a dozen eyewitnesses have confirmed the police officer's version of events that led to Mr. Brown being shot.

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/1693...icers-account/

The Right Wing Has Its Own Upworthy And You Won't Believe How Well It's Doing

[JonInMiddleGA]

On a side note, despite all the hubbub, a Rasmussen poll taken last month found that 57% of people thought their local police used the right tactics with situations while 18% thought police were too harsh ... which is the exact same number that felt police weren't harsh enough.

[nol]

Originally Posted by molson

But police are on the front lines of dealing with one of the consequences of that reality. Because of societal racism, because of economic injustice, police, even the good ones, will interact with black people at a disproportionate rate.

Yes, and instead of better training officers on how to handle those complex situations, police departments are more interested in hiring guys who want to play Rambo and yell, "Bring it, you fucking animals!" You can say that's due to the pool of applicants, but when police departments put together a recruitment video it's going to be "check out our KICKASS SWAT raids while metal/dubstep music plays" rather than "our officers are peacemakers/positively regarded within the community."

Originally Posted by molson

As he pointed out, that latter number is meaningless unless you have the basis for the search. If there's an arrest warrant, the car's getting searched. That's not even in the officer's control. It's not a judgment call, and its probably the most common lawful justification to search a car. What is the disparity of white v. black in terms of active arrest warrants? We need that info to make sense of that number. Now, we could definitely turn that back around, and say that blacks possibly have more active arrest warrants because of economic injustice and societal racism, and I'd be all ears. But you're making the assumption that all of these are judgement calls, and that if officers were all race-blind, those numbers would all be equal, and that's definitely not the case. (Edit: Though I wonder if people will feel better and if there'd be more harmony is departments ditched the concepts of search incident to arrest and probable cause and just made sure they acted proportionally with the community's racial makeup)

We have the info; you didn't look at the info. http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/2013/reports/161.pdf

369 of the 4632 times African Americans were stopped, there was an arrest made because the driver had an outstanding warrant. Compare that to 2,912 times the stop was for an equipment or license violation - the black/white breakdown for those stops is 92.3%-7.7%.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

IJReview.com reporting that nearly a dozen eyewitnesses have confirmed the police officer's version of events that led to Mr. Brown being shot.

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/1693...icers-account/

There will be a huge problem if it ends up that Brown was the aggressor.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by nol

of the 4632 times African Americans were stopped, there was an arrest made because the driver had an outstanding warrant. Compare that to 2,912 times the stop was for an equipment or license violation - the black/white breakdown for those stops is 92.3%-7.7%.

Sounds like maybe somebody ought to take better care of their cars and maintain their tags (I assume that's what "license" means in that context).

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

IJReview.com reporting that nearly a dozen eyewitnesses have confirmed the police officer's version of events that led to Mr. Brown being shot.

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/1693...icers-account/

"On Friday, someone claiming to be a friend of Officer Darren Wilson, the policeman involved in the shooting death of Michael Brown, gave an account that was very different from other stories we had heard.

In “Josie’s” version of events,"

And that's where it may as well end. "Josie" didn't give her own account of what happened, or have her own version of events, because she wasn't there. She was relaying the story told to her by Wilson's wife, who is her friend. This was also done through an anonymous call into a local radio station, so it could be a bunch of bullshit just as easily. Didn't stop CNN from running with this as a "source".

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

There will be a huge problem if it ends up that Brown was the aggressor.

Yep, we'll be inundated with useless handwringing about how "it wasn't his fault".

[molson]

Originally Posted by nol

Yes, and instead of better training officers on how to handle those complex situations, police departments are more interested in hiring guys who want to play Rambo and yell, "Bring it, you fucking animals!" You can say that's due to the pool of applicants, but when police departments put together a recruitment video it's going to be "check out our KICKASS SWAT raids while metal/dubstep music plays" rather than "our officers are peacemakers/positively regarded within the community."

Let's see:

JoinLAPD: Police Jobs with Los Angeles Police Department

NYPDRECRUIT.COM |

SLMPD Careers

Seattle Police Jobs - Seattle Police Department

Join the Metropolitan Police Department | mpdc

Careers - Miami Police Department

http://www.lvmpd.com/employment/empl...0/default.aspx

I bet you can find a rambo video somewhere but just picking those cities off the top of my head, that's not the tone of these sites at all. It's also interesting how front-and-center minorities and women are. All of these departments are probably more diverse than Ferguson's, but they're definitely trying to recruit from those groups.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Yep, we'll be inundated with useless handwringing about how "it wasn't his fault".

Don't agree with me, Jon, it makes me uncomfortable.

But beyond that, the officer has been tried and convicted in the black community already and they won't be pleased if he is found innocent. I don't look forward to more destruction and violence if that occurs.

It doesn't take away from the fact that the Ferguson PD is incredibly shitty and needs to be rebuilt.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Subby

The Right Wing Has Its Own Upworthy And You Won't Believe How Well It's Doing

That's all well and good, but it's either correct or not correct information.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by nol

Yes, and instead of better training officers on how to handle those complex situations, police departments are more interested in hiring guys who want to play Rambo and yell, "Bring it, you fucking animals!" You can say that's due to the pool of applicants, but when police departments put together a recruitment video it's going to be "check out our KICKASS SWAT raids while metal/dubstep music plays" rather than "our officers are peacemakers/positively regarded within the community."



We have the info; you didn't look at the info. http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/2013/reports/161.pdf

369 of the 4632 times African Americans were stopped, there was an arrest made because the driver had an outstanding warrant. Compare that to 2,912 times the stop was for an equipment or license violation - the black/white breakdown for those stops is 92.3%-7.7%.

Sorry I am on a cell and cn't open the link.
Does it include median income against race statistics?
Because if AA have a significantly lower median income then it would stand to reason that a populace with lower income would drive lower condition vehicles and would be subject to more equipment failures.

I am not saying Ferguson doesnt have a race issue. But this stat doesnt necessarily indicate causation.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Logan

"On Friday, someone claiming to be a friend of Officer Darren Wilson, the policeman involved in the shooting death of Michael Brown, gave an account that was very different from other stories we had heard.

In “Josie’s” version of events,"

And that's where it may as well end. "Josie" didn't give her own account of what happened, or have her own version of events, because she wasn't there. She was relaying the story told to her by Wilson's wife, who is her friend. This was also done through an anonymous call into a local radio station, so it could be a bunch of bullshit just as easily. Didn't stop CNN from running with this as a "source".

Correct. Her version was a third person version of the story. However, this story is apparently reporting that the police have received multiple direct witnesses who have backed up the officer's (not Josie's) version of events. I don't think it's crazy to assume the officer has already been extensively questioned and that the police have a pretty focused story as to his side of it. If this story is true, we've got multiple people directly backing up his side of the story.

Meanwhile, Mr. Brown's main witness who was his friend clearly stated that his friend was shot in the back while running away while the independent autopsy (conducted by the Brown family) shows no bullet wounds on the back half of Mr. Brown. I do think he altered his story slightly later to say that Mr. Brown was unarmed with his hands up (changing a story isn't that big of a deal IMO as your perspective does change somewhat when you're removed from the shock of the incident), but his story still directly contrasts what the officer and other eyewitnesses suggested.

Something doesn't add up. One of these groups is lying, no?

[molson]

Originally Posted by nol

We have the info; you didn't look at the info. http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/2013/reports/161.pdf

369 of the 4632 times African Americans were stopped, there was an arrest made because the driver had an outstanding warrant. Compare that to 2,912 times the stop was for an equipment or license violation - the black/white breakdown for those stops is 92.3%-7.7%.

So you think blacks and whites in Ferguson maintain their vehicles and license information at the same rate? That seems unlikely, if only for economic reasons.

If it were possible to isolate all of these factors, I'd still expect to see some kind of disparity. Because there's no reason all officers are totally immune form biases that Americans broadly hold. (I actually think they're probably better than average, but a racist advertising executive isn't going to do as much damage as the racist cop, so we don't hear much about them). But even with that, I don't think it's fair to assume individual officers are racists, or that any particular decision is racist. Once you get to that mindset, you don't want solutions, you don't want to improve things, you just want to fight, to look down on people, to proclaim yourself as superior and enlightened. When the good cops is viewed the same as the bad cop (because hey, look what happened in Denver, and look what this other Ferguson cop did once), the struggle is lost and there's no point to try to have more good cops. I don't think it's appropriate to act in a hostile way to officers, under the assumption that the officer is probably racist and hostile. Just like I don't think it's appropriate to make those assumptions about urban blacks, despite anecdotal experience evidence and statistics involving violent crime in these areas.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Whoops!

Missouri Governor Helped Ferguson Get Military Equipment

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Something doesn't add up. One of these groups is lying, no?

I'll take the one who has been mangling this from the start. And that's in reference to there being a dozen people backing up the story, and not about the officer's actual story being a lie. Seems like exactly the PR move this dept would take at this point.

[Subby]

I think this is pretty binary. Either you believe that there is nothing an unarmed person could do to merit being shot a minimum of six times or you do.

Hell Wilson had a taser. Why not use that after the first potentially lethal shot? Or second? Or third. Or fourth. Or fifth. Oh...too late.

[cuervo72]

Tiffany Mitchell and Paiget Crenshaw have been interviewed and I believe give an account consistent with Brown's friend (there was also the twitter account). Have any witnesses that give Wilson's side actually appeared or been named? Who floated the story that there are witnesses that corroborate his account?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Subby

I think this is pretty binary. Either you believe that there is nothing an unarmed person could do to merit being shot a minimum of six times or you do.

I think there's something to that. If the person is unarmed, there is a segment of the population who will always believe the officer should be charged with murder. But that's not the law. Did you see the video I posted earlier? Unarmed man with his hands up shot 3-5 seconds after he surrendered. The feds and the court thought that wasn't even voluntary manslaughter - that there wasn't even probable cause for that crime. The only one pursuing it was one plucky county prosecutor. (not sure if prosecutors fall into the general suspicion of law enforcement being evil and racist and everything.) Murder requires a very specific intent. Even the intent required for voluntary manslaughter can be tough to establish where decisions are being made very quickly - that goes both for police incidents and regular self-defense cases.

Originally Posted by Subby

Hell Wilson had a taser. Why not use that after the first potentially lethal shot? Or second? Or third. Or fourth. Or fifth. Oh...too late.

Could be a manner for an expert witness to discuss at a civil trial or maybe a criminal trial. I'm apparently the only one in this thread who isn't an expert on tasers. But we do know that the shots did not all come in a row. People keep changing that fact to better fit their narrative, but it wasn't six consecutive shots, everybody agrees with that. It was at least two groups of shots, probably lasting a couple of seconds each.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Logan

I'll take the one who has been mangling this from the start. And that's in reference to there being a dozen people backing up the story, and not about the officer's actual story being a lie. Seems like exactly the PR move this dept would take at this point.

It's funny you mention that, since it seems like this whole incident revolves so much around the thoughts of judgment of others based on race and perception of groups of people. As an example, what if the dozen witnesses were:

A) all black
B) all white, mostly cops
C) mixed
D) 90% black
E) 90% white

I think the court of public opinion sways quite a bit depending on the make-up of that witness group, no?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Tiffany Mitchell and Paiget Crenshaw have been interviewed and I believe give an account consistent with Brown's friend (there was also the twitter account). Have any witnesses that give Wilson's side actually appeared or been named? Who floated the story that there are witnesses that corroborate his account?

A reporter who has police sources stated that police have nearly a dozen eyewitness accounts supporting his story.

The grand jury is supposed to happen relatively soon, so we're going to get a lot of information in the coming 10-14 days one would guess.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Subby

I think this is pretty binary. Either you believe that there is nothing an unarmed person could do to merit being shot a minimum of six times or you do.

Hell Wilson had a taser. Why not use that after the first potentially lethal shot? Or second? Or third. Or fourth. Or fifth. Oh...too late.

Thank you Subby, I've been saying this for 3 pages now. Though one the revolver is out, the Use of Force Continuum is already at max.

Still, I can't picture the scenario where lethal force is required or even within general policy here. Even if we accept the officer's version of events - that he was being "charged" by the suspect (of which there is NO corroboration of these events while multiple eyewitnesses and even the autopsy report suggests differently), that's not a justification for lethal force. The officer still had chemical, blunt impact and a taser available. Escalation to lethal force against an unarmed suspect at range is not acceptable practice. And if the suspect was so dangerous, where is the call for backup prior to getting out of the car?

What has been presented by the police is riddled with holes, doesn't make much sense and their other statements of which turned out to be false (like the number of shots fired) don't help matters either. Maybe they have a good explanation for all of this, but so far it hasn't been forthcoming. Instead, they've focused on character assassination and their response to the crowds and media have not just been tone-deaf but should be treated as criminal actions. It all stinks to high heaven.

And BTW, for all the "adrenaline made him do it" excuses, that doesn't hold up in court. You're still accountable for your actions, especially when you're a trained police officer. Or you should be, but it doesn't work out in practice due to the thin blue line which extends all the way through prosecutors and judges.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

I think there's something to that. If the person is unarmed, there is a segment of the population who will always believe the officer should be charged with murder. But that's not the law. Did you see the video I posted earlier? Unarmed man with his hands up shot 3-5 seconds after he surrendered. The feds and the court thought that wasn't even voluntary manslaughter - that there wasn't even probable cause for that crime. The only one pursuing it was one plucky county prosecutor. (not sure if prosecutors fall into the general suspicion of law enforcement being evil and racist and everything.) Murder requires a very specific intent. Even the intent required for voluntary manslaughter can be tough to establish where decisions are being made very quickly - that goes both for police incidents and regular self-defense cases.

Nobody's trying to argue the law man. Take your lawyer hat off for a minute. We all understand the minutiae of the law as it applies to this case (as morally "wrong" as we may find it).

If I can presume to speak for Subby, I believe he's talking about morally "right" or "morally justified."

[Subby]

molson - If a police officer uses his or her weapon to kill a person, there should be an outside, independent investigation. That doesn't happen for the most part (which is described in this great piece on Politico). Life is sacred. When you take someone's life you better have a damn good reason.

And with respect to the taser - my second most pressing question, albeit far behind why the kid needed to be shot 6 times. It mystifies me why it wasn't used. What about that situation required lethal force?

[molson]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Nobody's trying to argue the law man. Take your lawyer hat off for a minute. We all understand the minutiae of the law as it applies to this case (as morally "wrong" as we may find it).

If I can presume to speak for Subby, I believe he's talking about morally "right" or "morally justified."

Whether this officer is charged with murder or some other crime seems central to all of this, all of this discussion, all of these protests, the investigation, the grand jury. I could be misreading it.

[nol]

Originally Posted by molson

So you think blacks and whites in Ferguson maintain their vehicles and license information at the same rate? That seems unlikely, if only for economic reasons.

If it were possible to isolate all of these factors, I'd still expect to see some kind of disparity. Because there's no reason all officers are totally immune form biases that Americans broadly hold. (I actually think they're probably better than average, but a racist advertising executive isn't going to do as much damage as the racist cop, so we don't hear much about them). But even with that, I don't think it's fair to assume individual officers are racists, or that any particular decision is racist. Once you get to that mindset, you don't want solutions, you don't want to improve things, you just want to fight, to look down on people, to proclaim yourself as superior and enlightened. When the good cops is viewed the same as the bad cop (because hey, look what happened in Denver, and look what this other Ferguson cop did once), the struggle is lost and there's no point to try to have more good cops. I don't think it's appropriate to act in a hostile way to officers, under the assumption that the officer is probably racist and hostile. Just like I don't think it's appropriate to make those assumptions about urban blacks, despite anecdotal experience evidence and statistics involving violent crime in these areas.

I'll stay with the null hypothesis of "it's about the same" and will be closer to the truth than "there's a greater than 10:1 disparity." Not to mention that something like driving with expired tags is something that takes a much keener eye than catching somebody speeding (unless you're just pulling people over for DWB and, would you look at that, they hadn't renewed their license. Aw, shucks.)

Median income in Ferguson is $36,000, so it's not like anyone there is doing particularly well - we already saw that the white people stopped are even more likely to have contraband on them. That's the beauty of small government; when a place like St. Louis is divided into however many municipalities the rich people don't have to move far to take their tax dollars out of the redlined neighborhood. Then the cycle continues where the PDs of police departments have to do what they can to get revenues up.

That's the thing - it's all covered up in so many layers of BS that at the bottom of it all, sure, you can say "An individual police officer/department isn't racist for pulling black people over at a disproportionate rate because the department doesn't have enough funding and they're statistically more likely to get some citation $$ for pulling over a black person."

[molson]

Originally Posted by Subby

molson - If a police officer uses his or her weapon to kill a person, there should be an outside, independent investigation. That doesn't happen for the most part (which is described in this great piece on Politico). Life is sacred. When you take someone's life you better have a damn good reason.

And with respect to the taser - my second most pressing question, albeit far behind why the kid needed to be shot 6 times. It mystifies me why it wasn't used. What about that situation required lethal force?

I don't live in Wisconsin and my state always uses outside agencies for officer force cases. And prosecutions of officers (and prosecutors, and public defenders, and judges) are always handled by conflict prosecutors as well. I've worked in offices that have received these conflict cases and have prosecuted officers. The agency the officer works for should never handle an investigation like this. I don't know how often things are handed over to outside agencies, but I guarantee it's not only Wisconsin.

Does taser deployment take the same amount of time as a firearm deployment? I have no idea. I do know in my jurisdiction, tasers are generally used to catch fleeing subjects, not as a defense against a subject attacking or charging you. I'd think a taser would be too clumsy and not necessarily effective in that kind of situation. I'd rather use the club than a taser to fend off force. But neither has the stopping power of bullets, if you're afraid for your life.

But even that said, whether lethal force was necessary isn't going to be the deciding factor in either a criminal or a civil case. That's just not the standard. Maybe DT's right, maybe we're only talking about morals here, in which case, sure, you can have a separate opinion about that. But if that's where we are, and this was just a crappy cop in a tactical sense, and that a better, braver officer would have handled things better, them I'm really not sure how productive the whole racism angle is. It more goes to show you how important good cops are. And it emphasizes how destructive it can be when good and bad cops are viewed with the same suspicion all the time, and how that suspicion and hostility shouldn't be validated and encouraged, and where we have these environments where no good cop would want to work.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

We all understand the minutiae of the law as it applies to this case

We do? I'm a member of the bar and can't say that I begin to understand the many facets of the law that will come into play in this case (to the extent it becomes one).

[korme]