WW DII - The Dungeon 2 : Dungeon Harder! GAME OVER!!!

[dubb93]

Even with potions and a self heal I came within a roll of dieing at level 8 and then again at level 9.

[dubb93]

Who really wanted a level 9 dead dubb roaming level 4?

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Who really wanted a level 9 dead dubb roaming level 4?

*raises hand!*

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Danny

Jag how many spells did you actually get from drops?

Maybe 12 or so? I know ID was a drop, I bought oracle and mirror image, but I seen to remember Icy Blast being a drop (unless it was a store purchase). Stone to flesh was a drop (though never used), true sight was a drop, and I had a 5 or so level 4 drops, including Divinity 2 or 3 times.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

If I had to choose my class/race, knowing everything about the game and my own personal style

Human Sorcerer
Sis'Sharr Lay Healer
Flame Kin Artificer

Would have been my choices. Prolly Sorcerer or Artificer. Prolly Human Sorcerer. Human XP advantage fights your slow XP chart. Then combined the awesome power of healing with the awesome power of beating. RAR!!!

The major benefit of sorceror to me was not having to find scrolls and so being guaranteed the spells you wanted as well as access to priest and Mage items (not sure how much that came up for others though, PB and I never saw a priest only item). When I compared the spell lists, I didn't think I would consider choosing a priest spell until the 4th level. The downsides compared to a battle mage on the other hand:

1. Slow XP chart (consider a Battle Mage could use a 4th level spell at 32k XP and something like 65k for a sorceror)
2. 50% less damage from icy blast and acid arrow
3. Worse combat abilities (weapon selection and to hit)
4. Fewer hps
5. Less flexibility with which spells they could cast in a given day

[JAG]

I liked the changes to the trading system this game. Fewer trades for you to have to process as a result but I rarely felt like I had something I wanted to trade to someone and didn't have an opportunity to do so.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Limiting potions may make it impossible to solo. I literally popped 10 pots and my self heal on some fights. If it becomes a party game then so be it, but no one is going to solo very many level 4 rooms with potions, unless they are some sort of powerful solo class. At that point you may have a game of 20 sorcerers and battle mages.

I'm considering limitations on the movement items, not on Healingots

[Abe Sargent]

Oh, and the ghouls almost won this. They were right beside danny/TJ and hoops for the days when that party broke up. If they had gone in two of the three directions available other than back, they hit your split u p party and add members and level up. But they didn't. They went the one other direction and tried to track down Thommy.

[Autumn]

If I had realized the change in trading rules I wouldn't have taken assassin. i chose between bard and assassin specifically because I saw how their skills would be useful. I figured it would be a great way to make money, IDing items or picking locks, and that there would be places only the assassin could go. Granted, I died quickly, but I never got any use out of the assassin skills, and not being able to trade items across the dungeon meant I wasn't going to be able to help anyone out but my party. I might have just fallen back on a Taurian Myrmidon in that case.

I liked the fact that the ghouls still had a chance of winning the game, that was a fun wrinkle. I don't know how they did after I died, but it was surprisingly hard to track anyone down. Thomkal mentioned a room I had been in so we were able to track him down, and I thought it would get easier as time went on and we knew more rooms. We could move twice a day which should have made it very hard to get away from us.

[Abe Sargent]

The Ghoul Class


Rules for the Ghoul Class

You begin at the same level as you died. You fight with no weapons, but your claws give you two attacks, each dealing damage equivalent to a short sword.

As you move through the dungeon, you may not attack monsters, and will not even be given descriptions of them. Instead, your task is to find a player, and attack and kill them

You attack as if you were a warrior of the same level. You have no special abilities beyond normal undead immunities, and take no actions in rooms, cannot be given actions in rooms, cannot collect items, and so forth. You just move and attack.

You move once during the movement phase, and then again during the night phase.

You may not post in the thread until you have been discovered by a player, then you may speak and discuss as much as you want.

When you kill a player, you gain a level. When those ghouls who you slew rose from the dead also kill player, you both gain a level. When a ghoul they made slays, all of you gain a level.





The bolded part was only for the first few ghoul, because I wanted their first attack to be a surprise. Later ones didn;t get that rule.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

The Ghoul Class


Rules for the Ghoul Class

You begin at the same level as you died. You fight with no weapons, but your claws give you two attacks, each dealing damage equivalent to a short sword.

As you move through the dungeon, you may not attack monsters, and will not even be given descriptions of them. Instead, your task is to find a player, and attack and kill them

You attack as if you were a warrior of the same level. You have no special abilities beyond normal undead immunities, and take no actions in rooms, cannot be given actions in rooms, cannot collect items, and so forth. You just move and attack.

You move once during the movement phase, and then again during the night phase.

You may not post in the thread until you have been discovered by a player, then you may speak and discuss as much as you want.

When you kill a player, you gain a level. When those ghouls who rose from the dead also kill player, you both gain a level.





The bolded part was only for the first few ghoul, because I wanted their first attack to be a surprise. Later ones didn;t get that rule.

Giving them paralysis at Level 4 or 5 or so would be a big help for these guys against the higher level players who are starting to load up with magic items by that point. I had expected to see that ability at some point.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

If I'm thinking about how to tweak the game, this would be where I would do it. Don't make the monsters harder, just make potions and horses more scarce to limit the players ability to get early gold, load up on these, and roll through every battle.

That would result in a greater risk aspect, balancing out the obvious reward, of pushing for non-stop battles.

I would also suggest that there should be some element of healing overnight to balance this out, maybe 10% of health, to ensure someone isn't stuck without healing or potions and stuck sitting for 5 days.

Rather than that limitation, if there were going to be a change there, I'd prefer to see a limit to how many healing potions you can carry or use in a single battle.

[ntndeacon]

I almost thought it worth it to go back to level 3 when we knew we were right next to mckerney. just because it would have been fun to kill another player.

[ntndeacon]

It was also kind of interesting that there were several parties of the same type.

[JAG]

I enjoyed the party system. Of the winners, two were solo full-time and three were solo for about half their XP gain with only having a party of two when they did party up (though CF also had the help of an exp pot). On the other hand, of the players that died, three of them were solo when it happened, so the comment made in the rules about it being soloable but difficult came about in the end. Parties of three did not appear viable though, it seemed like those players were not overly close to winning, other than maybe bhlloy because of his 2 level boost.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Oh, and the ghouls almost won this. They were right beside danny/TJ and hoops for the days when that party broke up. If they had gone in two of the three directions available other than back, they hit your split u p party and add members and level up. But they didn't. They went the one other direction and tried to track down Thommy.

A pack of 7 ghouls may have been challenging.

[Abe Sargent]

The last time we had player undead, but I controlled and moved them. Inspired by player Ghosts from Angband. This time I gave them a class, made them the only group that could pm each other, and allowed them to hunt you. I liked that a lot, it really added to the pressure of the game for the adventurers.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Oh, and the ghouls almost won this. They were right beside danny/TJ and hoops for the days when that party broke up. If they had gone in two of the three directions available other than back, they hit your split u p party and add members and level up. But they didn't. They went the one other direction and tried to track down Thommy.

And I walked right to them-room I was in had two exits where I could stay on the same level of the dungeon....Ranger chose poorly.

[ntndeacon]

I think with ghouls hunting you It may be more important tto be a party.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Autumn

If I had realized the change in trading rules I wouldn't have taken assassin. i chose between bard and assassin specifically because I saw how their skills would be useful. I figured it would be a great way to make money, IDing items or picking locks, and that there would be places only the assassin could go. Granted, I died quickly, but I never got any use out of the assassin skills, and not being able to trade items across the dungeon meant I wasn't going to be able to help anyone out but my party. I might have just fallen back on a Taurian Myrmidon in that case.

I liked the fact that the ghouls still had a chance of winning the game, that was a fun wrinkle. I don't know how they did after I died, but it was surprisingly hard to track anyone down. Thomkal mentioned a room I had been in so we were able to track him down, and I thought it would get easier as time went on and we knew more rooms. We could move twice a day which should have made it very hard to get away from us.

Yeah that was another thing I didn't like about the ghouls-most people shut up about the rooms they were in so the ghouls had a harder time finding them. For me part of the fun of the Dungeon is hearing about how they are doing in rooms I probably will never encounter myself.

Oh Abe if you remember, was I at any time one room away from another player? Looked liked at one time I was close to Hoops, Jackal, and Danny but then found rooms they hadn't been to.

[hoopsguy]

Thomkal, we were about 2-3 days apart if we backtracked. As I started getting further with the mapping we could probably have met in 2 if we took a leap of faith to hit a room neither of us had seen, assuming we got an exit that allowed you to cut across.

[hoopsguy]

My Notepad map won't paste in here nicely. But here is an attempt to recreate it.

Wyvern L3 <-- Astrologer L2 (D7) <-- 4 pillars L2 (D6)
                      |                                     ___                  ___                  |
                      |                                      |                    |                   |
               Study/Pit L2 (D8)                  L3 -- Basilisk L4 (D17) -- Kitchen L4 (D18) -- Beholder L4  --
                      |                                      |                    |              (J/Z/BH D18)
                      |                                      |                    |                  __
                  Azer L3 (D9) --> Cathedral L3 (D10)   Griffon L4 (D16)  --   Invis L4 (D19) -- L4
                                          |                  |                    |
                                          |                  |                    |
                                      Efreet L3 (D11)   Treant L4 (D14, D15)      L4
                                          |                  |                    |
                                          |                  |                    | 
                                     G. Cube L3 (D12) -- Slave L3 (D13)   --      L4
                                                             |
                                                             |                                                    

                                                             L3

[hoopsguy]

So I'm not sure if there was a room above the cathedral, but if you had gone to the pit instead of wyverns and we had gone to that empty spot we potentially could have met up.

But looking back, 3 players probably wasn't getting us any closer to the brass ring. Would have been nasty for the ghouls, perhaps, but that's about it.

[Autumn]

Abe, what was the deal with the layout of the dungeon? I know you don't want to give away anything, but it seemed in several cases that rooms were not where it seemed they must be. Was there something that caused rooms to shift or the like?

[Danny]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Even with potions and a self heal I came within a roll of dieing at level 8 and then again at level 9.

Seems a lot of you almost died

[Danny]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Who really wanted a level 9 dead dubb roaming level 4?

Would have been cool to see

[Danny]

Originally Posted by JAG

Maybe 12 or so? I know ID was a drop, I bought oracle and mirror image, but I seen to remember Icy Blast being a drop (unless it was a store purchase). Stone to flesh was a drop (though never used), true sight was a drop, and I had a 5 or so level 4 drops, including Divinity 2 or 3 times.

Wow, Abe likes you more then me!

[Danny]

Originally Posted by JAG

I liked the changes to the trading system this game. Fewer trades for you to have to process as a result but I rarely felt like I had something I wanted to trade to someone and didn't have an opportunity to do so.

The changes to trading worked out pretty well

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Abe, what was the deal with the layout of the dungeon? I know you don't want to give away anything, but it seemed in several cases that rooms were not where it seemed they must be. Was there something that caused rooms to shift or the like?

GM error

FWIW, i do think Abe made accounting error or two, but they were always in my favor, so I wasnt going to argue

[Danny]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Thomkal, we were about 2-3 days apart if we backtracked. As I started getting further with the mapping we could probably have met in 2 if we took a leap of faith to hit a room neither of us had seen, assuming we got an exit that allowed you to cut across.

a 4 person party would not work. I think its clear you need 2 at the most here for a chance to win.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

If I'm thinking about how to tweak the game, this would be where I would do it. Don't make the monsters harder, just make potions and horses more scarce to limit the players ability to get early gold, load up on these, and roll through every battle.

That would result in a greater risk aspect, balancing out the obvious reward, of pushing for non-stop battles.

I would also suggest that there should be some element of healing overnight to balance this out, maybe 10% of health, to ensure someone isn't stuck without healing or potions and stuck sitting for 5 days.

I agree

[JAG]

I also strongly preferred the djinn system this time where lower level players got dibs on the limited items.

[Darth Vilus]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Congrats DV You spent a lot of the game invisible. I frequently forgot you were playing. Please regale us with tales and stories of your epic quest.

I know I know, I HATE working when there's a WW game going on. I wanted to be way more active in the thread, my schedule just didn't permit it :/

Well I started just fighting monsters really, didnt have a whole lot of room actions. Started in level 1, moved up to level 2 after I got my first spell and then progressed like that.

Went to level 4 earlier than I wanted because I was getting the impression that I was falling behind. Worked out, I started gaining XP pretty quickly

[Danny]

I actually had access to biy lightning bt for 400 gold i a provate sale, bit it was shortly after my almost death amd i had mo gold. I migjt habe been able to push a lotlr beyyer if i got it

[Darth Vilus]

One of the main things that helped me was luck though I kept finding items (mainly scrolls) that i couldnt use so I just sold them at the djinni sale. Wasnt short on gold at all lol.

that let me buy the dagger I had which was pretty strong and then the armageddon potion gave me some sweet armor. Again, luck

after that i started pushing harder, used a couple horse figurines and a nocturne potion. I went up like 3 levels in 3 days, wayyyy quicker than i thought I would.

Basically my whole game was monster after monster and buying healing potions

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Rules Post #9 - The Dungeon


Nothing happens in corridors, all of the action is in rooms. You can only move during the move action, but you are not required to move, should you desire to stay in room you are currently in. After the move action, all automatic combat is resolved with monsters. Most combat is automatic. You enter a room, there is a troll here, so you and the troll tussle. Results come to you in your pm. Some combat is by choice. As an example above, I gave the sleeping giant that could be attacked or circumvented.

The dungeon is all one big map, but there are more difficult areas of the dungeon. The bricks in the rooms in which you begin are Tan. The next level has Burnt Sienna bricks. The third level has Raw Umber bricks. The final, most dangerous areas of the dungeon have Black bricks. If the brick color changes, I will tell you in the pm. Otherwise, there is no change. The darker the color, the more danger you face, but the better the treasure.

You begin on the outskirts of the dungeon, and as you move towards the middle, the bricks will darken. No two players will begin in the same room. When two or more players are in the same room, you will be told in a pm, since some things (like spells) affect them.

If two or more players enter a room, there are several possibilities for combat. If there are multiple monsters in the room, each player will take a share of the monsters to fight, so you will divvy them up. If you arrive with one monster and multiple players, one player will fight the monster at a time, until the monster is killed (unless you are a team). The player with the lowest level will fight first. If tied, Fighters go first, and if two of the, are in the room (or two non-Fighters) then it will be random. So, if Bob and Steve arrive to find a Grizzly Bear, Steve will fight it since he is level 3 and Bob is level 5. If Steve wins, he gets the XP and any treasure the Bear had. If Steve runs away or dies, then Bob fights the Bear.

If multiple players are in a room with a curious object, such as a chest, then priority is given to investigate in the following order – Lower level character first, Assassins second, roll off third.

Many rooms are created in such a way as to have multiple encounters over time, but many rooms may have just one monster, one treasure, and will be vacant later in the game. Thus, it may behoove you to move deeper into the dungeon.

There are some rooms that are only accessible by various things. Some rooms or areas will not be accessible to Taurians. Others may only be guzak and dvergr sized. Others may have locked doors that are best picked by Assassins. There may be other restrictions to places you may go.

It is possible for you to leave the dungeon through magical means, or by retiring. There are no exits. Not in the usual sense.

Every player will see the dungeon from their own perspective. In order to give you a sense of direction, every starting room will have the ability to move forward (some may have additional options). Forward from all starting vantage points will be towards the center of the dungeon. That’s my little help for you. I recommend using a map if you want to keep track of where you have been, in order to ensure you will not get lost. A quick map on a sheet of paper should suffice.

The Dungeon! is magical, and may do unusual and nasty things. That’s my warning….

Bold part added to emphasize an answer to Autumn's question and others about the Dungeon - straight from the rules.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by JAG

I also strongly preferred the djinn system this time where lower level players got dibs on the limited items.

Me too

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Danny

a 4 person party would not work. I think its clear you need 2 at the most here for a chance to win.

That reminds me, and I want to mention it here as something to refer back to


How about adding skill based XP as well.

Casting a spell to further your goals, picking a lock, finding a secret door, etc. These could give you XP that is not split with others, allowing a party to help share rXP from monsters by giving them another source.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Danny

Wow, Abe likes you more then me!

To be honest, as much as I used most of the spells I found, I probably would've gotten more value selling them.

[Abe Sargent]

Brainstorm example:

You get 10 XP for each HP you heal with spells or abilities
You get 100 XP/level for a spell cast to defeat an enemy or further goals
You get 250 XP for disarming trap, picking lock
You get 200 XP for detecting something with an ability - such as Paladin
You get Gold Value/10 for auto-IDing something with Bard or Artificer ability

Etc.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Danny

I actually had access to biy lightning bt for 400 gold i a provate sale, bit it was shortly after my almost death amd i had mo gold. I migjt habe been able to push a lotlr beyyer if i got it

To be fair, you might have gotten a spell scroll through hoops/Tj and haven't received it, maybe you should check with them....

[Abe Sargent]

i'ma delete all of my pms in an hour - does anyone want me not too?

[JAG]

First thought regarding the skill-based exp is it would probably make early game easier for the squishy classes.

[Darth Vilus]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Brainstorm example:

You get 10 XP for each HP you heal with spells or abilities
You get 100 XP/level for a spell cast to defeat an enemy or further goals
You get 250 XP for disarming trap, picking lock
You get 200 XP for detecting something with an ability - such as Paladin
You get Gold Value/10 for auto-IDing something with Bard or Artificer ability

Etc.

Wouldnt you need something for the warrior classes to balance it out though?

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

i'ma delete all of my pms in an hour - does anyone want me not too?

don't worry everyone. I have them all

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Brainstorm example:

You get 10 XP for each HP you heal with spells or abilities
You get 100 XP/level for a spell cast to defeat an enemy or further goals
You get 250 XP for disarming trap, picking lock
You get 200 XP for detecting something with an ability - such as Paladin
You get Gold Value/10 for auto-IDing something with Bard or Artificer ability

Etc.

Cool I would have won much sooner then.
did people REALLY do much disarming/picking of locks? I saw only one chest in the entire dungeon. Never even saw a trap.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Brainstorm example:

You get 10 XP for each HP you heal with spells or abilities
You get 100 XP/level for a spell cast to defeat an enemy or further goals
You get 250 XP for disarming trap, picking lock
You get 200 XP for detecting something with an ability - such as Paladin
You get Gold Value/10 for auto-IDing something with Bard or Artificer ability

Etc.

Like the idea, just would want to make sure that the balance is good with other benefits - someone like lay healer could go wild with this.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

I almost thought it worth it to go back to level 3 when we knew we were right next to mckerney. just because it would have been fun to kill another player.

We really almost went that direction instead ntn.
My initial order was forward because Abe's direction line in the room read:
"back(to sea serpent, etc), right, forward and left (to level 3)"

This made it look to me that forward was on level 4.(despite the lack of comma). Then I drank the potion. That told me that there was a phoenix and mckerney forward in a level 3 room. So I double checked the previous directions and saw the missing comma and that it was level 3. Still a bit confusing as one can assume a dropped comma. Anyway I saw a bunch of dead giants and DV to the right and heard screaming. This was when I had a decisioni to make. I needed a little XP for next level. So do I take the XP from the phoenix alone or go to DV room. I was actually thinking that DV slew all the monsters but we might get to use the arena. But I was worried about mckerney's paralysis as well as not being able to get back to four so I went right.

Glad it was a spawning room. Oh yeah the other thing is we wouldn't have gotten XP for mckerney as I would have turned him.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Darth Vilus

Wouldnt you need something for the warrior classes to balance it out though?

I would make sure all of the fighter had an ability to give them some additional XP as well. Like the Pally's abilities; maybe the Rangers get's Ambush like they have in D&D or Kensai has a weapon focus ability that can be used to enhance their ki for various effects, you get the idea.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

The Ghoul Class


When you kill a player, you gain a level. When those ghouls who you slew rose from the dead also kill player, you both gain a level. When a ghoul they made slays, all of you gain a level.

An undead pyramid scheme!!!!


Was thinnking it would be really neat if the ghouls went up on their own class leveling system/
Either:
As they gained levels they become a different kind of undead.
So like:
1 - Skeleton
2 - Zombie
3 - Ghoul
4 - Wight
5 - Ghost
6 - Wraith
7 - Spectre
8 - Mummy
9 - Vampire
10 - Lich

Or:
something like they become the type of undead based on their class but have the HP/HD of their level. And at certain levels they start gaining thir special undead abilities.

so
Fighter - Ghoul
Cleric - Mummy
Mage - Vampire
Thief - Wraith




Re: Paralysis. I'm not sure how that rule worked here. Was that an instant death situation? Instant deaths don't work as well in this kind of game I think. Just one shot and boom you're out even f you have +11 to hit 80 HP.