Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by molson

Does true heel heat really exist anymore? Which heels are booed to any great degree exclusively because of their dastardly deeds? Fans in the arena at least seem to love a good heel beatdown, especially when it's someone turning on someone else.

HHH has talked about this too, the only real heels left might be the bookers. So most guys who get big heel reactions tend to be connected to that backstage element of things. A guy gets heel heat if it's perceived he's being overpushed, or if he's otherwise seen as being unreasonably supported by the company. The flip side of that is the purest babyface heat belongs to those who are perceived by the fans as being in opposition to that authority somehow - usually either by being "held back," or by having success outside the WWE.

I don't think anyone can get "true" heel heat anymore just because 100% of the audience knows it's all just a show.

That being said a few people do manage to get boos through their actions. Kevin Owens after the turn on Jericho is one, and Charlotte routinely gets great reactions out of the crowd. Charlotte REALLY sells the fact that she believes she is the best by divine right. She 100% sells that character in my opinion.

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I don't think anyone can get "true" heel heat anymore just because 100% of the audience knows it's all just a show.

That being said a few people do manage to get boos through their actions. Kevin Owens after the turn on Jericho is one, and Charlotte routinely gets great reactions out of the crowd. Charlotte REALLY sells the fact that she believes she is the best by divine right. She 100% sells that character in my opinion.

well she is the best female wrestler in wwe, so she should act that way

[JonInMiddleGA]

Umm ... wth?

Not seeing this on Twitter yet, just happened to spot it on FB.

Update regarding Katsuyori Shibata’s condition | NEW JAPAN PRO-WRESTLING

Update regarding Katsuyori Shibata’s condition

Katsuyori Shibata was taken to hospital due to poor health following his main event match on April 9th at Ryogoku Sumo Hall. He was conscious and able to communicate while being admitted to hospital.

After a medical examination, he was diagnosed with subdural hematoma and surgery was conducted as part of his treatment. He is now recovering following a successful operation.

Updates will be posted as his condition progresses.

Umm ... subdural hematoma, that's a brain bleed, right?
That's bad shit unless I'm misreading something here.

edit to add: What I'm getting at here, since it's not making the rounds anywhere else yet is whether this is a work or legit scary stuff.

[murrayyyyy]

Isn't his main move head butts? I'd say legit scary stuff.

So with the shift tonight/tomorrow. Any chance we get Shield 2.0 in the trade and Raw becomes NJPW 2.0?

[SirFozzie]

This is apparently legit, he's been doing this kinda shit for his whole career (unprotected headbutts, etcetera)

[CrescentMoonie]

I really like the NJPW product these days, but they've got to go the Lawler/Orndorff/Murdoch route on head and neck bumps.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

So with the shift tonight/tomorrow. Any chance we get Shield 2.0 in the trade and Raw becomes NJPW 2.0?

I'm interested in which way they go as Raw seems like the worst possible place for a NJPW style logical storyline and workrate show. I'm really hoping those guys stay on Smackdown. A year long build to the first AJ/Nakamura singles match at WM 34 could be great.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

I'm interested in which way they go as Raw seems like the worst possible place for a NJPW style logical storyline and workrate show. I'm really hoping those guys stay on Smackdown. A year long build to the first AJ/Nakamura singles match at WM 34 could be great.

I'm wondering if that Hardy reaction @ Mania has Vince re-thinking the Shield breakup and not running with the Balor Club.

I guess you really can't run Shield 2.0 with the Usos having the Tag Belts.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

I really like the NJPW product these days, but they've got to go the Lawler/Orndorff/Murdoch route on head and neck bumps.

But if you take that approach, does the "strong-style" element really work?

I mean, Shibata-Okada was getting possible MotY talk immediately afterwards.
And what clip was considered the signature moment of the match enough so that it was the spot NJPW used as the freebie clip to promote it?

Yep. That headbutt. (though who knows which one was actually the injurous one-too-many).

Some matches are working, to significant degree, because (as my son so colorfully puts it) some of these guys "beating the blue fuck out of each other" is part of the story-telling.

[murrayyyyy]

And the first announcement is Apollo Crews to RAW. Makes me want to BO-lieve that the Wyatts will have a new family member.

[Scarecrow]

Shakeup results:

Going from Smackdown to Raw:
Apollo Crews
The Miz
Maryse
Dean Ambrose
Bray Wyatt
Curt Hawkins
Heath Slader
Rhyno
Kalisto
Mickie James
Alexa Bliss

Staying on Raw:
Seth Rollins (per Kurt Angle)
Finn Balor (fued with Wyatt)
Kevin Owens (champ vs champ match)

[CrescentMoonie]

Pretty sure Owens gets moved to SD tomorrow but still has his blowoff match with Jericho at the PPV to send Jericho on tour with his band.

[murrayyyyy]

Bliss and mickey james also?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Pretty sure Owens gets moved to SD tomorrow but still has his blowoff match with Jericho at the PPV to send Jericho on tour with his band.

A tour that, if my luck holds up, I'll finally be able to see.

One of the stops is in guitarist Rich Ward's hometown ... about 20 mins from where I grew up/my family still is, so it's a slam dunk

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

Shakeup results:

Going from Smackdown to Raw:
Apollo Crews
The Miz
Maryse
Dean Ambrose
Bray Wyatt
Curt Hawkins
Heath Slader
Rhyno
Kalisto
Mickie James
Alexa Bliss

Staying on Raw:
Seth Rollins (per Kurt Angle)
Finn Balor (fued with Wyatt)
Kevin Owens (champ vs champ match)

Also, random appearance by "The Drifter" Elias Sampson before the 8 man tag.

I wonder if Vince was listening to the crowd tonight. Very loud "You deserve it" chant when Reigns was strapped to the board to be put in the ambulance and nearly as loud "Hey Hey Goodbye" song from the crowd when the 2nd ambulance pulled away with Reigns in it. Strowman might be the top face on Raw according to fan reaction right now.

[murrayyyyy]

So would it really be a loss for Smackdown if they only got tonight:

New Day
KO
Charlotte +1
Zayn

Smackdown just got Nakamura & Dillinger also.

I guess from kayfabe view they are trading (from the draft) #2 Ambrose, #12 Wyatt, #17 Miz, #37 Kalisto, #45 Crews, #47 Bliss (UFA) Hawkins, Rhyno, Slader, James, Saxton for whatever comes across tonight.

Charlotte seems gone and she went #3, Zayn went #11, Owens #18 and New Day #10. If Banks (#13) gets added like she is rumored to be, that's Smackdown fleecing RAW.

Brought to you by #draftisstillrealtome2016

[CrescentMoonie]

Yeah, if that's the way it turns out then Raw might not get me to watch at all anymore. Saxton to Smackdown and Otunga to Raw is just arranging deck chairs. Hopefully JBL gets fired on live TV for what he did to Ranallo.

At this point I'm watching Raw for Joe, Strowman, Revival, Hardys, Finn, Miz, Bliss, and James. Not much else there I care about at all unless they keep moving the Cesaro/Sheamus team in a positive direction or they go ahead and have the Balor Club. Maybe they add Bo Dallas to his brother and tweak that gimmick away from the supernatural BS. I'll try to catch the segments with Brock and Heyman.

Smackdown looks much better as soon as they get the belt off of Boreton. Hopefully something like DIY or Sanity gets moved up to the blue brand.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Yeah, if that's the way it turns out then Raw might not get me to watch at all anymore. Saxton to Smackdown and Otunga to Raw is just arranging deck chairs. Hopefully JBL gets fired on live TV for what he did to Ranallo.

At this point I'm watching Raw for Joe, Strowman, Revival, Hardys, Finn, Miz, Bliss, and James. Not much else there I care about at all unless they keep moving the Cesaro/Sheamus team in a positive direction or they go ahead and have the Balor Club. Maybe they add Bo Dallas to his brother and tweak that gimmick away from the supernatural BS. I'll try to catch the segments with Brock and Heyman.

Smackdown looks much better as soon as they get the belt off of Boreton. Hopefully something like DIY or Sanity gets moved up to the blue brand.

Same as the only real loss to me last night was Miz and Bliss. I really think Smackdown should be how they bring up NXT guys as Talking Smack gives them more time to work on their mic skills. I think it helped Bliss and Corbin and reminded everyone how good Miz was when allowed to speak. I think Zayn could make the most of talking smack and almost wish they would write Zayn/Owens as a semi-tag team watching each others back to go USA-Canada against America Alpha or Anti-New Day.

Charlotte will probably have a longer career going to SD as Nia Jax or Sasha has tried to take years off her life with the botches.

[CrescentMoonie]

I'm looking forward to Charlotte vs Naomi for the sheer athleticism of it and Charlotte vs Becky for the best traditional heel vs the best traditional babyface in the company including the men.

[cthomer5000]

I laughed so hard I had tears rolling down my face when the crowd broke into the "You deserve it" chant while Roman was taking his beating. Going to be hard to top that for my moment of the year.

I'll wait until after tonight to issue my judgement on the "superstar shakeup" but so far i think they're making a lot of poor moves.

Their two guiding principals should have been to break up stale rivalries, so for me I'm going to lose my mind if Kevin Owens/Sami Zayn and/or Sasha/Charlotte end up on the same brand.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Charlotte will probably have a longer career going to SD as Nia Jax or Sasha has tried to take years off her life with the botches.

She has MORE than returned the favor with Sasha. It felt like they were in a murder/suicide pact at times.

[CrescentMoonie]

Rumblings that Miz and Maryse will head back to Smackdown tonight.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Rumblings that Miz and Maryse will head back to Smackdown tonight.

Back? Wasn't that clearly John Cena and Nikki Cena on RAW last night? {this is why Miz is important to either show because he is the heel that always fits}

[CrescentMoonie]

So, is Wyatt going to make weird appearances on SD Live while not being on the show?

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

So, is Wyatt going to make weird appearances on SD Live while not being on the show?

Dude made cockroaches and worms on the mat at Mania. You think he can't take over both shows with his voodoo crap?

[CrescentMoonie]

If their intro is a look into how they'll be used then I'm happy with Primo and Epico getting away the Raw writing team.

So far we have:

KO
Zayn
Primo
Epico
Jinder Mahal

Hopefully Jinder doesn't knock anyone out tonight.

[murrayyyyy]

So added on top of my wish list the Shining Stars, Jinder, Sin Cara (why?), Rusev (hidden injured guy) and Tamina(the +1). If no one gets added before the end of the show I think Smackdown got better. Leaves the door open for Asuka to get the call up to Smackdown.

Superstar Brand
Byron Saxton RAW
Kevin Owens RAW
Sami Zayn RAW
The Shining Stars RAW
Jinder Mahal RAW
Tamina Undrafted Last Year
Charlotte Flair RAW
Sin Cara RAW
Rusev RAW
Lanalina RAW
The New Day RAW

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I'm going to lose my mind if Kevin Owens/Sami Zayn and/or Sasha/Charlotte end up on the same brand.

*cue sad trombone*

[CrescentMoonie]

I don't know what his ceiling is, but Baron Corbin is looking like he could be the best athletic big man in a while.

[General Mike]

Looks like Smackdown got the better of the post Mania callups/ Superstar Shakeup.

[Neuqua]

I feel like Luke Harper doesn't get much credit for his athleticism.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

I don't know what his ceiling is, but Baron Corbin is looking like he could be the best athletic big man in a while.

Ugh.

Styles carried him to the best match he's ever had.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Ugh.

Styles carried him to the best match he's ever had.

Other than being dragged down by boring Ambrose, he's been good for a year. Every time he works with a smaller guy(s) where he can be the base they work off of, he looks good. The character works, his moveset isn't as limited as a lot of other big guys, and he's at least carryable already.

[Maple Leafs]

Did I miss an explanation of what the shakeup actually was, or how it happened? Like, did the GMs make trades? Was it a draft, or a lottery, or whatever? Or did the writers just figure that having people randomly show up on new shows would be good enough?

[CrescentMoonie]

No explanation, I think they realized that the draft lottery wasn't actually either of those things and changed the name as a way of admitting that they are literally just shaking up the rosters once a year.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Did I miss an explanation of what the shakeup actually was, or how it happened? Like, did the GMs make trades? Was it a draft, or a lottery, or whatever? Or did the writers just figure that having people randomly show up on new shows would be good enough?

Creative has been busy with all of their other wonderful ideas they just couldnt find the time to come up with a creative way to make roster changes....





LOL

[Carman Bulldog]

Wouldn't it make more sense to have the wrestlers "contracted" to the different organizations and then have wrestler movement tied into the GM's "signing" wrestlers away?

That way you could have movement at any time in the year and also build suspense into the story lines regarding where free agents will sign (or re-sign)? You could even factor NXT into that universe, you could have guys getting "released", etc. So many variables.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

Wouldn't it make more sense to have the wrestlers "contracted" to the different organizations and then have wrestler movement tied into the GM's "signing" wrestlers away?

That way you could have movement at any time in the year and also build suspense into the story lines regarding where free agents will sign (or re-sign)? You could even factor NXT into that universe, you could have guys getting "released", etc. So many variables.

Not sure how close they would want to play the contract angle as it ends up being egg on the face if someone would leave down the line for another federation.

I'm just wondering in what world does it make sense that RAW would give up the longest reigning tag team champions, someone who's held the newly created women's title for 2/3 of it's existence (not counting her time with the Divas belt) and the guy who held the Universal title for about 90% of it's time for Wyatt, Ambrose, Bliss and the Miz.

Steph should be fired for approving all this. /s

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

*cue sad trombone*

I actually like them both a whole lot, it just seems totally insane to me that they didn't split them up.

I think RAW wins in terms of recognizable talent, but I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised with how things worked out for Smackdown.

K.O., Zayn, Charlotte, and Rusev are among my absolute favorite people to watch.

Personally my only "ack, that sucks" loss from Smackdown is The Miz. I also don't see how going to Raw is going to benefit him. I'd like to see him get a major push, he's been on fire. No way that happens on RAW.

I generally favor Smackdown, and my favoritism is probable going to be even more pronounced after these moves.

[RainMaker]

Nakamura sure knows how to make an entrance. Over 4 million views already.

[Comey]

That's a fantastic entrance. One of the best I've seen.

[Jon]

When this is done at Wrestlemania, it will be epic.

[RainMaker]

They'll lose Taker and eventually HHH over the top entrances at Mania. But Nakamura and Balor should make up for it in the coming years.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

They'll lose Taker and eventually HHH over the top entrances at Mania. But Nakamura and Balor should make up for it in the coming years.

I'd throw Roode's "Glorious" also just because it's one of the few theme's with lyrics. Even Daniel Cormier has changed his ringtone to Glorious from Nakamura's theme.



7:45 mark if it posted the whole video.

At Mania it will probably be a full on orchestra with grand piano's everywhere.

[Racer]

Enjoyed going to Smackdown. Kevin Owens was my favorite. I seemed to confuse a kid sitting in front of me as I cheered him on while he made fun of the crowd. The kid kept looking back at me.

Dark Matches

Pre-Show
Breezango over The Ascension (I think that's who won - I wasn't fully paying attention)

Post-Show (Possible spoiler?)

Spoiler

Shinsuke Nakamura over Dolph Ziggler in the 205 Live ring. Guessing they had this match so some of the crowd would stick around for 205 Live. Seemed like maybe about 40% of people stuck around. Considering Ziggler wrestled the TV opener and they sort of feuded last week, wondering if this will eventually be a PPV match and this was a way for them to get some ring experience against one another.

[CrescentMoonie]

Jericho's light up scarf is already the runaway highlight of the night. Also sounds like WWE bought the rights to the Broken gimmick so there could be a Hardy's loss followed by general craziness for months.

[General Mike]

Aries vs Neville - what a terrible finish.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by General Mike

Aries vs Neville - what a terrible finish.

I'm fine with it. I'd rather have more countouts, intentional DQs, etc if the writers/bookers were smarter about building to the actual payoff.

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

I'm fine with it. I'd rather have more countouts, intentional DQs, etc if the writers/bookers were smarter about building to the actual payoff.

why not just punch the referee in every match then?

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by General Mike

why not just punch the referee in every match then?

Because you only do it, as a heel, when you feel like there's a real chance you can lose and you build to something like a no DQ match. Back when wrestling used consistent rules, that kind of thing was part of the build towards a blowoff in a big feud. It's booking 101 and it doesn't work anymore because there's not enough consistency to make it seem logical.