Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[SirFozzie]

Ok, this was awesome:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BTvB_kggvqK/

[Mota]

Just watched Michael Elgin against Zach Sabre Jr at last night's Smash Wrestling show in Toronto. It was easily one of the hardest hittting matches I've ever seen. It was the perfect mix of Sabre using his excellent technical repertoire to work on Elgin, and Elgin's explosive power to quickly turn the tide. I'd seriously recommend to anybody in the Toronto area to check out their shows, they put on excellent shows every time.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Is there a more overrated indy darling than Wil Ospreay?
I mean, other than Ricochet.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Is there a more overrated indy darling than Wil Ospreay?
I mean, other than Ricochet.

Chuck Taylor?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Chuck Taylor?

Is he still around?

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Is there a more overrated indy darling than Wil Ospreay?
I mean, other than Ricochet.

They're both awesome and you're old.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

They're both awesome and you're old.

I got nothing about guys who fly, nothing against guys who flip.
Ricochet however would apparently not bother selling ice water in hell, he actually annoys me more at this point than Ospreay.

But both are actually guys who I think I might like to see even the Jacksons beat down (and I don't like those two fuckers one iota).

[Toddzilla]

Thank you, Randy Orton

#dives

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Is there a more overrated indy darling than Wil Ospreay?
I mean, other than Ricochet.

Still a pretty impressive move that Ricochet makes look the best.

insta054 GIF | Create, Discover and Share on Gfycat

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Still a pretty impressive move that Ricochet makes look the best.

insta054 GIF | Create, Discover and Share on Gfycat

Um, Ricochet and his opponent

[JonInMiddleGA]

UK Special on the network ... Andrews vs Bate was pretty darned good.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

UK Special on the network ... Andrews vs Bate was pretty darned good.

The UK match tonight was incredible and I had never seen either guy wrestle before. In fact the whole NXT Takeover show was great.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The UK match tonight was incredible and I had never seen either guy wrestle before. In fact the whole NXT Takeover show was great.

LaLaLaLaLaLaLa

{avoiding it if I can, likely to watch with the kid Sunday night ... he's was off watching Preds with a girl tonight}

[RainMaker]

Your son has his priorities straight.

It's a great show.

[JonInMiddleGA]

What a shit show of a finish for a PPV. Worse still, the main was actually as good as it could be.

{shakes head}

[Neon_Chaos]

Bow down to the modern day Maharaja!

Edit: This is the same as the 2004 JBL push from out of nowhere to establish a top heel, which they really need on Smackdown.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just watched Dunne vs Bate from last night. Shit hot, easy 4.0 to 4.25

Bate is youuuuung as hell, needs seasoning but has one helluva ceiling.
And Dunne has one of the most perfect faces for his role I can recall.

[RainMaker]

I don't follow the weekly shows much but I don't think I've ever seen Jinder win a match before. Like wasn't he just a jobber for the past year? And from what I've seen, he doesn't appear all that talented on a roster that is booming with talent. I figured this was just a throwaway PPV that they'd give a win to Orton to before setting up a bigger feud.

I get the JBL comparison but I think JBL was much more talented in the ring and on the mic. I could see giving Jinder a US title run where he could do the anti-American gimmick, but hotshotting him to the WWE Championship seems insane. Especially when you see that Smackdown has Orton, Styles, Nakamura, Zayn, and Owens on the roster.

What a weird finish.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Just watched Dunne vs Bate from last night. Shit hot, easy 4.0 to 4.25

Bate is youuuuung as hell, needs seasoning but has one helluva ceiling.
And Dunne has one of the most perfect faces for his role I can recall.

Yeah Dunne has a smug bully heel you want to punch in the face look down perfect. I didn't know either guy going in. That was fun.

Did you see the main event? Thought that was great as well. Good lord Gargano can sell.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Yeah Dunne has a smug bully heel you want to punch in the face look down perfect. I didn't know either guy going in. That was fun.

Did you see the main event? Thought that was great as well. Good lord Gargano can sell.

Yeah, we went all the way to the end though unfortunately I accidentally spoiled myself on the finish of the main.

Kinda creates a problem with a lack of challengers for the tag belts atm. House show call ups forthcoming maybe?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Yeah, we went all the way to the end though unfortunately I accidentally spoiled myself on the finish of the main.

Kinda creates a problem with a lack of challengers for the tag belts atm. House show call ups forthcoming maybe?

I don't follow NXT too much but isn't Heavy Machinery a team they can use to feud for awhlie? Also TM-61 should be back by the Fall. And that Angelo Dawkins guy is in a tag team with someone else that looks to be debuting soon. Plus they can always use Sanity for something.

Sad to see DIY end but Gargano and Ciampa should be an amazing feud. Part of me wonders why they waste this stuff on NXT. Like wouldn't it have made more sense for DIY to make it to the main roster as underdog babyfaces? Then after a few months and near misses at the gold have a split like this and awesome feud?

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't follow the weekly shows much but I don't think I've ever seen Jinder win a match before. Like wasn't he just a jobber for the past year? And from what I've seen, he doesn't appear all that talented on a roster that is booming with talent. I figured this was just a throwaway PPV that they'd give a win to Orton to before setting up a bigger feud.

I get the JBL comparison but I think JBL was much more talented in the ring and on the mic. I could see giving Jinder a US title run where he could do the anti-American gimmick, but hotshotting him to the WWE Championship seems insane. Especially when you see that Smackdown has Orton, Styles, Nakamura, Zayn, and Owens on the roster.

What a weird finish.

They dont have a top heel in Smackdown.They just made one out of the blue. And judging from reactions of former and current stars, as well has his interview on the Jericho podcast last week, it couldnt have happened to a nicer guy.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

They dont have a top heel in Smackdown.They just made one out of the blue. And judging from reactions of former and current stars, as well has his interview on the Jericho podcast last week, it couldnt have happened to a nicer guy.

What about Owens? Or Corbin?

Just seems weird to hotshot him like that after a year where he was a jobber.

[murrayyyyy]

Could be worse. They could just not have a title like RAW for 3 months after Mania.

Jinder is an old school heel champion. He's beaten no one cleanly as of late. Heels are suppose to cheat. He's better than Corbin on the mic and Owens is a boring champion IMO who can't get real heat. The WWE has always thought highly of Jinder as he was in the original finals match of NXT vs Rollins. Sure they stuck him in that horrible 3MB trio but they sure got a lot of face time for a crap faction.

Ratings with the belt on Orton were terrible so I don't have a problem with him dropping the belt to anyone on the roster. Smackdown is the "let's try anything show" and odds are Jinder is a transitional champion to either Cena, AJ or Naka. Or Smackdown can be that show to develop the next superstar by having the likes of Corbin, Big E, Harper or Rusev battle for the main title picture while the likes of AJ/Naka battle with Owens for the US title.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Tyler Breeze's mop has more ring ability than the new champ. And is at least twice as interesting.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Tyler Breeze's mop has more ring ability than the new champ. And is at least twice as interesting.

I can't see the mop coming back so soon. Uso J injured the mop with a pretty clean break. Gotta be out for at least 9-12 months.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

I can't see the mop coming back so soon. Uso J injured the mop with a pretty clean break. Gotta be out for at least 9-12 months.

Even if he'd used a wood chipper on it the mop would STILL have more skill and be more interesting than the new champ.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Even if he'd used a wood chipper on it the mop would STILL have more skill and be more interesting than the new champ.

We know Vince loves that anti-American champion just because it's the only way he's ever been able to build up a heel.

So does this make Roode the best champion they have right now?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

So does this make Roode the best champion they have right now?

Of top belts? Yeah.

Of any/all belts? I'd put 'em as Owens, Asuka, then Roode. Then probably Ambrose 4th.

[Suicane75]

The only explanation for Jinder is that they're trying to make inroads into India. He's nothing as a professional wrestler. NOTHING. His in ring is average at best, his promos are bad and he's been a jobber both before and after he was fired. It's just flat out insulting to fans of the product to put him in that position when I could name 10 wrestlers off the top of my head on Smackdown alone who are as good or better than he is.

Smackdown was so much fun for the first 6 weeks or so after the brand split, but they've managed to completely WWEify it and turn it into a 2 hour version of RAW.

And John, I finally caught up with the Ospreay/Ricochet match. Outside of the general stuff I dislike in most wrestling matches (the applause breaks after doing their choreographed flippy doos, and the stupid fighting spirit spot where they let each other punch them), I thought it was a pretty terrific aerial match.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

The only explanation for Jinder is that they're trying to make inroads into India. He's nothing as a professional wrestler. NOTHING. His in ring is average at best, his promos are bad and he's been a jobber both before and after he was fired. It's just flat out insulting to fans of the product to put him in that position when I could name 10 wrestlers off the top of my head on Smackdown alone who are as good or better than he is.

You act like he's had a longer title reign than Rey Mysterio, Kane and Andre the Giant combined...

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

You act like he's had a longer title reign than Rey Mysterio, Kane and Andre the Giant combined...

Nah. I act like he's useless and I have no interest in seeing him on TV, let alone as the top guy on the brand. I could understand it if people were clamoring for him or he'd done something to provoke interest, but neither of those things are true. He's a jobber they decided to make world champion, why anyone in their right mind would pay money to see him in that position is baffling to me. Why THEY think anyone in their right mind would pay money to watch him is twice as baffling to me.

[RainMaker]

It's not so much they put the belt on Jinder as they gave him no build coming into this. He was jobbing to midcarders on Raw over a month ago.

Weird thing is that if Owens and him switched belts it would be fine. Anti-American heel plays perfect with the US Championship. Owens is a great main event heel when they let him do his own thing.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Nah. I act like he's useless and I have no interest in seeing him on TV, let alone as the top guy on the brand. I could understand it if people were clamoring for him or he'd done something to provoke interest, but neither of those things are true. He's a jobber they decided to make world champion, why anyone in their right mind would pay money to see him in that position is baffling to me. Why THEY think anyone in their right mind would pay money to watch him is twice as baffling to me.

They've told us year after year that he is a jobber. I believe them.

But then again, he's jacked, and Vince likes guys that are jacked. He obviously is committed to himself and to the business because he has big muscles.

Instead, take a rookie and rocket them to the top. It is easier to believe.

This elevation happens a lot though. Look at the Young Lions in Japan. They job for 1-2 years, then go to Mexico / US to keep learning then, and another few years later they return as much improved wrestlers. Or in the olden days, wrestlers would be jobbers in one territory, but move to a different territory and become elevated. But the recurring factor is that they would go away. It just doesn't work to job out someone for years and then all of a sudden say that they are good.

Apparently Jinder is getting a lot of heat, but it's actually not him that's getting the heat, it's the WWE.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

Apparently Jinder is getting a lot of heat, but it's actually not him that's getting the heat, it's the WWE.

Absolutely this.

I have no beef with him. It's a paycheck, he didn't shoot to steal the title, he's doing what his employer says do.

His employers need their f'n heads examined, but that's not his fault.
(nor is it Roman Reigns fault)

[murrayyyyy]

Too bad you can't buy any merch for the champ.

I don't get the "expanding the India" fanbase theory of putting the belt on Jinder when the WWE has never had a black champion before. Wonder if his title reign will be longer than Wyatt's who was basically a jobber to the stars.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Too bad you can't buy any merch for the champ.

I don't get the "expanding the India" fanbase theory of putting the belt on Jinder when the WWE has never had a black champion before. Wonder if his title reign will be longer than Wyatt's who was basically a jobber to the stars.

Both India and China represent untapped markets.

[PilotMan]

You know, he's gotta be more compelling than Seamus.

[Neuqua]

I don't mind Jinder getting the belt. I recognize there is a lot of talent on Smackdown but this is the first time I've been legit surprised by a move that WWE made. Everything they always seems so choreographed.

It's not like they made Randy look weak. Jinder won in the most heel way possible. I concede he's barely even average in the ring but I think he's fine on the mic. He certainly has a very heel look.

I don't mind seeing where this goes, though maybe I'm biased because I'm also Punjabi.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Neuqua

I don't mind Jinder getting the belt. I recognize there is a lot of talent on Smackdown but this is the first time I've been legit surprised by a move that WWE made. Everything they always seems so choreographed.

It's not like they made Randy look weak. Jinder won in the most heel way possible. I concede he's barely even average in the ring but I think he's fine on the mic. He certainly has a very heel look.

I don't mind seeing where this goes, though maybe I'm biased because I'm also Punjabi.

I'm with you - after 30+ years of being a wrestling fan, the thing that draws my attention most is wacky shit out of the norm.

Kevin Owens and AJ Styles could trade the title for the next 3 years and they'd all be great matches, but, great matches are no longer a special thing. Every promotion has great wrestlers, every promotion can put on great matches. You don't see one or two great matches a year anymore, like you might if you followed just the WWF years ago, you can see 100+ if you really want to.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Mota

Instead, take a rookie and rocket them to the top. It is easier to believe.

Kevin Owens
AJ Styles
Finn Balor
Roman Reigns
Dean Ambrose
Seth Rollins

They kinda do that already

[RainMaker]

I would be OK with the Jinder thing if they had decided 6 months ago to make him look semi-credible.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm with you - after 30+ years of being a wrestling fan, the thing that draws my attention most is wacky shit out of the norm.

Kevin Owens and AJ Styles could trade the title for the next 3 years and they'd all be great matches, but, great matches are no longer a special thing. Every promotion has great wrestlers, every promotion can put on great matches. You don't see one or two great matches a year anymore, like you might if you followed just the WWF years ago, you can see 100+ if you really want to.

AJ Styles as the leader of the Bullet Club was doing far more than wrestling good matches. NJPW took a great wrestler and built things around him. He was entertaining both in the physical, wrestling way as well as the talky talky / storyline way.

The problem with the WWE is that they recognize Styles as a great wrestler, and only give him that. They put no effort into his character whatsoever. They put no effort in getting him over. He gets himself over.

Then you have Jinder Mahal who has never gotten himself over in any capacity in his career, and for some reason he is getting all the effort from the WWE? It makes no sense. The only heat that Jinder will be getting from me is X-Pac heat.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Mota

AJ Styles as the leader of the Bullet Club was doing far more than wrestling good matches. NJPW took a great wrestler and built things around him. He was entertaining both in the physical, wrestling way as well as the talky talky / storyline way.

The problem with the WWE is that they recognize Styles as a great wrestler, and only give him that. They put no effort into his character whatsoever. They put no effort in getting him over. He gets himself over.

Then you have Jinder Mahal who has never gotten himself over in any capacity in his career, and for some reason he is getting all the effort from the WWE? It makes no sense. The only heat that Jinder will be getting from me is X-Pac heat.

Don't hinder the Jinder. His is the greatest rags to riches story of all time.

[Neuqua]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Don't hinder the Jinder. His is the greatest rags to riches story of all time.

A true Jinderella story.

[RainMaker]

It's weird to me that the brought in Gallows, Anderson, Styles, and Balor and have yet to do much Bullet Club related. I know they don't own the rights to it but I'm sure they could just call it The Club like they did early on or Balor Club which is on Finn's shirts.

I think part of the problem with today's product is it's paint by numbers crap and they are scared to actually come up with a unique storyline and run with it. Current system will get them a nice following, sell some t-shirts and fill up house shows to an extent, but it isn't going to help them grow.

[RainMaker]

Also, how is the company not embarrassed by last weekend? The developmental brand made complete fools out of the main roster show. Two guys I've never heard of fighting for a belt I know nothing about had the best match of the year for the company. That tag ladder match was better than any tag match WWE has put on in years (and Authors of Pain are pretty green in the ring). Roode and Itami was miles ahead of Jinder and Orton.

And how did this company fuck up Bayley already? The easiest character in the world to get over.

[Mota]

And when Chiampa turned on Gargano? Real heat.

NXT has been better than the WWE for a long time. Then the WWE promotes their top talent, and these guys drop into the mediocrity of the WWE. NXT calls up more green guys, and continues making better moments and storylines, backed up by great wrestling.

What we're starting to see now, is that NXT is drawing at the same arenas the same weekend, and getting louder reactions. It's not just that 400 seat auditorium in Florida anymore. Thanks to the network, more and more people are realizing this.

[hoosierdude]

I actually found that besides the UK Championship match, that this was the weakest NXT Takeover, and while not as good as previous events for NXT, it was better than WWE Backlash. I dont have a good feeling about the Raw PPV coming in less than 2 weeks. Raw and Smackdown Live seem to be treading water, and it isn't easy to watch.

It is like telling folks that the only good PPV's are the big four, and the others are just 3 week feuds that deserve a longer buildup, but, get tossed aside, I guess you get what you get.

I think that any storyline before SummerSlam will be hidden behind the Brock Lesnar and whoever they decide this time should face him. Hopefully no matter who is the person to face Brock for the title, gets the belt off him. Then we can wait for Royal Rumble to come around to care again, right?

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Mota

AJ Styles as the leader of the Bullet Club was doing far more than wrestling good matches. NJPW took a great wrestler and built things around him. He was entertaining both in the physical, wrestling way as well as the talky talky / storyline way.

The problem with the WWE is that they recognize Styles as a great wrestler, and only give him that. They put no effort into his character whatsoever. They put no effort in getting him over. He gets himself over.

Honest question here. How much effort was NJPW versus wrestlers being allowed to get themselves over outside of NJPW because they were a gaijin group and used youtube to record themselves for shoots? I mean he walked into NJPW and attacked the champions day 1 and won the belt 30 days later. TBC was already established and he took the lead 18 months after he was there as Karl Anderson was the BC leader in NJPW and AJ was the ROH leader.

I think it's a major difference on why New Day got over and the Wyatt Family didn't. I don't think Bray has the ability to get himself over outside of the WWE while the New Day seemed to be throwing ideas left and right to the WWE. Same with the Hardy's as they had the creative ability to get themselves over despite TNA.