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View Poll Results: How is Obama doing? (poll started 6/6) | |||
Great - above my expectations | 18 | 6.87% | |
Good - met most of my expectations | 66 | 25.19% | |
Average - so so, disappointed a little | 64 | 24.43% | |
Bad - sold us out | 101 | 38.55% | |
Trout - don't know yet | 13 | 4.96% | |
Voters: 262. You may not vote on this poll |
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Thread Tools |
12-15-2009, 04:27 PM | #6901 | |
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Quote:
heh
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Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature. |
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12-15-2009, 04:30 PM | #6902 |
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If they're going to stick us with a watered down giveaway for PhArma and still let Lieberman keep his chair they deserve whatever losses are coming. You want an excited base, how about you do something besides obsess about covering your asses.
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To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers Last edited by JPhillips : 12-15-2009 at 04:34 PM. |
12-15-2009, 04:33 PM | #6903 | |
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Quote:
double heh
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12-15-2009, 04:43 PM | #6904 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Quote:
Oh I wholeheartedly agree. We need fucking term limits for fucking Congressmen.
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12-15-2009, 06:14 PM | #6905 |
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For the first time in my life I wish I was a big money donor to the DNC just so I could tell them I'm not giving them a penny until they stop being weak kneed pansies.
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To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
12-15-2009, 07:56 PM | #6906 | |
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Quote:
that too. 100% public financing - no exceptions. and term limits. i probably should have mentioned that i'm totally in favor of public financing.
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Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature. Last edited by DaddyTorgo : 12-15-2009 at 07:57 PM. |
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12-15-2009, 08:21 PM | #6907 | |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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Quote:
I think we should do public financing with an opt-out clause if we think we can blow the doors off the competition with private financing. |
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12-15-2009, 08:24 PM | #6908 | |
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Quote:
hey...turnabout is fair play though - not like it hasn't been done to (D)'s in the past. but i'm sick of it in general - was sick of it before that...was sick of that since...oh shit...long as i can remember. it makes elections not about issues or philosophies, but about $$. which is just fundamentally at odds with what the founding fathers would have wanted and with effective government.
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Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature. |
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12-16-2009, 05:37 PM | #6909 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2001
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Quote:
Because right now they pass all these spending bills without any increases in taxes even though anyone with half a brain knows where the money is coming from. How about asking how they feel about each of those issues with a corresponding increase in tax? I love the idea of national A+ health care for everyone but I realize the trillion+ dollars has to come from somewhere. At zero cost I would favor most of these things. What a useless study. |
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12-16-2009, 05:40 PM | #6910 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Quote:
Ya, that study has been cited here before and its pretty useless. Asking someone whether the government spends enough/too much on "Solving problems of big cities" is ridiculous. Who even has a proper context for those questions? Who is THAT in touch with government budgets v. results for such broad areas/goals? Really how people answer that question is "Is solving problems of big cities" a good thing? And most people will say yes. Last edited by molson : 12-16-2009 at 05:41 PM. |
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12-16-2009, 05:47 PM | #6911 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
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How about my list...
Jobs for everyone! Money for everyone! No crime! No disease! No war! Everyone finds true love! Eternal life! Obviously Libertarianism won't work. People want things the government has no capability of providing!!! |
12-16-2009, 05:50 PM | #6912 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Quote:
Give it a break. The two don't go together at all. Libertarians are tired of their money (ie taxes) being spent on bullshit programs. Spin it however you want. Using this study as proof of the demise of small government is something a 6th grader would do in a persusive essay in arts class. |
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12-16-2009, 05:57 PM | #6913 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Steve: Answer this question...
"How do you feel about the government spending 1 quadrillion dollars to help sick kids?" What you are against sick kids? You are against big government? Don't worry you aren't alone. 99.9% of respondents answered the same way. Just shows the notion that people support big government spending is not a core value of this country. Edit: The triple post was probably unnescessary but the reasons people try and come up with the undermine Libertarianism are often very weak. And sadly most of the people who do (my friends included) are the very people who would most agree with the party's platform. Last edited by panerd : 12-16-2009 at 06:04 PM. |
12-16-2009, 06:22 PM | #6914 | |
Grizzled Veteran
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Quote:
I can't help it if people are stupid. My ex-girlfriend voted for Obama because he was going to end the war, another friend couldn't wait for a black president (that could relate to an oppressed minority) who would change gay rights as we know them, another friend thought McCain would end welfare. Most Americans vote for the propaganda. Do they get what they deserve? Absolutely! Is what probably what they want? My guess is no. Take a look at the Libertarian platform sometime and tell me where you differ. (I mean actually visit their website don't go off the "legalize drugs" and "end government" catch phrases that the two parties throw at you so they can keep shoveling their bullshit) IMO a perfect world would have very little government meddling but their positions aren't anywhere near that radical. |
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12-16-2009, 06:25 PM | #6915 | |
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Quote:
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12-16-2009, 06:27 PM | #6916 | |
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Quote:
Which is why when you actually ask these people what they feel about specifics, they tend to be on the big government side. These people don't want to see social security and medicare gone (which is huge government). They don't want our roads to be privately owned. They want better schools and a nice environment. Small government is nothing more than a political rallying cry. It should be "Government we don't like" as they don't want small government, just different government. There are true libertarians out there who want government to be real small, but they are still a small minority. When there are actual specifics from the "small government" types that are consistent across the board, I'll believe it. Otherwise the small government group is just a front for different government. |
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12-16-2009, 06:28 PM | #6917 | |
Head Coach
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Quote:
Late last week, I gave $200 to our local Ecumenical Services Ministry solely for the purpose that three families can get their needed medicinal prescriptions filled. I will be doing more by the end of the month. What personal responsibilities have everyone else taken to help those in need? Paying taxes to the federal government doesn't count. |
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12-16-2009, 06:33 PM | #6918 | |
Pro Rookie
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Quote:
If we had a population of people like you, I could see something like libertarianism working. But let's be honest with ourselves here, most people are selfish and there ain't a damn thing anybody will ever be able to do about that. |
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12-16-2009, 06:35 PM | #6919 | |
Grizzled Veteran
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Quote:
I don't disagree. Republicans (Glenn Beck being one of the worst offenders) have hijacked the end big government movement. We have already seen what they can do when given both the executive and legislative branches of government and if they regain power in 2010 and 2012 they will spend about 3 months fiscally conservative and then go a spending spree again. Just speaking personally I like Obama better than Bush Jr. It probably doesn't show much in my rants but at least Obama agrees with me on some social issues. Bush wanted to control everyone's social lives and spend money like a drunken sailor. Give me an issue (I showed the environment above) and I will give you a third point of view that actually uses some logic and doesn't just bash the other two parties. (It does bash the government, but that is kind of the point) |
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12-16-2009, 06:40 PM | #6920 |
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LOL at Libertarians using private ownership in Africa as evidence of it being better for the environment. Tourism is not only big business there, but one of the only businesses. It's a unique part of the world that people will pay to see animals they can't find anywhere else. That is why private ownership has worked there at times.
Also leaving out the fact that many of these countries added drastic animal rights laws to the books to protect native species from poachers and other negative interests. They knew how much their economy needed the tourism. Why not pull up some of the data before these laws were enacted? I'll tell you why. Because poachers and farmers had a field day killing everything they could with no repurcussions. I don't mind the argument of no government on different grounds, but distorting the African enviromental movement and comparing it to the United States is laughable. For the few examples cited, I can name hundreds of examples where government saved species and parts of the environment. Ask yourself where the Galapagos would be without the government declaring 97% of it a national park and creating strict rules on tourism there. Last edited by RainMaker : 12-16-2009 at 06:41 PM. |
12-16-2009, 06:40 PM | #6921 |
Head Coach
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But the key is that you can make a difference in someone's life and seeing the joy of giving. They needed help now, not in 6 weeks of bureaucratic hell dealing with someone 2000 miles away. You take the personal responsibility locally to make a difference and not expect that an inefficient bureaucracy can do it for you.
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12-16-2009, 06:43 PM | #6922 | |
General Manager
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Quote:
This is why I won't even use the term "libertarian" to describe myself anymore. It's been hijacked by conservatives that realized that "conservative" was going out of favor and needed a new label. I see people talk about "libertarians" but what they describe are typical conservatives... So yeah, I stopped using it to refer to myself. The last thing I need is someone thinking I agree with conservatives on just about any social issue (or most fiscal issues). Last edited by sabotai : 12-16-2009 at 06:44 PM. |
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12-16-2009, 06:44 PM | #6923 | |
Grizzled Veteran
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Quote:
You're right. The paragraph (of what about 15?) about Africa was a little out there. How about soverign immunity? Or is this going to be another... "Well in a perfect world I would agree..."? |
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12-16-2009, 06:48 PM | #6924 | |
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Quote:
Rick Maybury calls it juris naturalists vs stateism in his book... "Are You Liberal? Conservative? Or Confused?" Great book. Doesn't always offer all the answers (who the hell knows all the answers?) but it sure does show why the answer is not going to be found in either of the parties we have today. Thats how I feel about real Libertarians. Are some of their views out there? Absolutely. But at least they try to use some logic in the parties platform. |
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12-16-2009, 06:49 PM | #6925 | |
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Quote:
If people did want government out of their lives, we'd be seeing people campaigning to shut down Medicare and Social Security. You don't because it's political suicide. As for an issue, lets go with Medicare and health care for the elderly. How about not regulating hospitals so that they must care for people in emergency situations regardless of whether the patient can afford it. Give me the small government stance on Medicare and the regulation on hospitals that force them to cover people that are not financially lucrative to them. |
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12-16-2009, 06:53 PM | #6926 | |
Pro Rookie
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Quote:
And the vast majority of the population choose not to see how making a difference in someone's life brings joy. I don't think that will ever change too much. Selfishness dooms Communism and selfishness would certainly doom any libertarian utopia. Selfishness is human nature. Last edited by lungs : 12-16-2009 at 06:53 PM. |
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12-16-2009, 06:53 PM | #6927 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Mountains
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Quote:
That's the main problem, IMO, in going overboard as the government as the solution to all our problems. There's this idea that if we make "rich" people take care of things (i.e. someone richer than us), then we don't have to give. Believing that rich people should subsidize poor people is not compassion, even though that's how it's sold by some Democrats. There's no problems in the U.S. where the answer is simply "more government" or "less government." Last edited by molson : 12-16-2009 at 06:56 PM. |
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12-16-2009, 06:54 PM | #6928 | ||
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
Except that it is more important not to have an answer but to make sure the other party is worse. R did it to D in the 2000s and the D are doing it now to the R. Quote:
Which is why I keep put my sig up in political discussions. Whether it applies to the Libertarian Party or those calling themselves Libertarians, I don't know or care. It applies to me. |
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12-16-2009, 06:57 PM | #6929 | ||
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Quote:
Ask and you shall recieve... Quote:
I am sure people will poke holes in this, before you do ask yourself change is this trillion dollar bill about to bring? One trillion dollars! |
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12-16-2009, 06:57 PM | #6930 |
Pro Rookie
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Oh, just to make it clear, when I talk about selfishness, I'm not just talking about the rich that are too selfish to give to the poor.
Selfishness permeates all parts of society. From the person that is too selfish to get out of his/her armchair and go find a job to the person on Wall Street screwing people over to make that extra billion. |
12-16-2009, 07:01 PM | #6931 | |
Head Coach
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Quote:
Not only selfishness but greedy as well. Which is why every major legislation falls into the Law of Unintended Consequences and fails to match any of the intended goals in relation to the cost. People now think that, all of a sudden, that won't happen with federal govt health care (esp. when a majority believes or knows that it will end up costing more in the long run). The idea is to not perpetuate the problem but to encourage more local control and accountability. |
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12-16-2009, 07:12 PM | #6932 | |
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Quote:
Removing the FDA and other regulations for one. So we really want to go back to times where doctors are prescribing things like heroin and cocaine for issues? For every drug you list that was delayed for testing that may have saved lives, I'm sure you can find hundreds that didn't pass testing that would have caused horrible repurcussions for the public. Do you really want a society where we have thousands of drugs out there claiming to cure cancer and no FDA to verify those statements? How many more lives will be lost because someone was convinced that Green Tea extract will cure their cancer over the latest new drug that actually does benefit people. Just take a look at your supplement industry right now and tell me if that's what you want your medical drug industry to look like. That doesn't even touch on the safety of food. I kind of like knowing that there is little chance that the food I'm going to buy at the store has been contaminated with salmonella or something else. I like having a group that will figure out where an outbreak started from instead of letting it be till millions are infected. How many lives would have been lost in the last Peanut Butter outbreak if we had no organization figuring out it came from that and recalling all the products? That's the problem with the Libertarian stance. They throw the baby out with the bathwater. The FDA does more harm than good in my opinion and Libertarians want to remove it because of one issue they have with the speed of certification. Why not come up with a better solution for the FDA? How about allowing people to take non-FDA approved drugs if they want? If people are desperate and want to take an untested drug, they can. But leave it in place for those who want to have drugs that have been thoroughly tested. |
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12-16-2009, 07:17 PM | #6933 |
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And lets tackle 1,2, and 3 next. The problem with their stance is they act like everyone is magically going to be able to save up hundreds of thousands of dollars for late life health care. The funny thing about giving tax cuts to people to save is that poor people don't really pay much in taxes at all. So if you aren't paying taxes, how is a tax-cut for a Medical Savings Account going to help out at all?
Fact is that the majority of Americans would not be able to afford health care at a later stage in life. With no regulations or help from the government, they would literally be forced to treat themselves and most likely die. There is definitely an argument that people have made that says that we shouldn't be spending money on medical care later in life to extend our lives by a few years. But the public wants it and if it was a loved one of yours, you'd want it too. You aren't going to turn around and say "well Mom, you didn't save up enough when you were younger so you're just going to have to die because we can't afford a 3-week hospital stay". This notion that the majority of people can save up enough money to cover their own health care is the stuff of fairy tales. |
12-16-2009, 07:20 PM | #6934 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Quote:
Just saw this...so late on this response...but that happened to me with Countrywide on my purchase as well. They kept asking me for documentation...I would tell them I sent it in...they would then say, "Oh, ok let me check on that...here it is!". Rinse and repeat about 2 more times over 60 days. Really...is it any wonder these knuckleheads can't service these loan modifications? They can't even organize the one thing they request from us...paper! |
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12-16-2009, 07:29 PM | #6935 | |
Pro Rookie
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Quote:
I get this and wholeheartedly agree. Let me ask you this. I know your feelings about big government and all that goes along with it. What about big business or megacorporations or whatever you want to call them? Are they not also part of the problem? |
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12-16-2009, 07:39 PM | #6936 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
We have health savings accounts along with health insurance at my job. I can opt into either program. The way my health savings account works is I get around $1000 a year to put into an account. I can choose to visit the doctor for a runny nose or swollen ankle or treat myself. After about 5 years I have about $4700 in the account. There is also a catatrophe clause that will cover anything over like $3000 a year so I am pretty much set now that I have gotten past the 3 year stage. This money will earn interest and I can use it when I retire or God forbid some catistrophic happens to my family. I am certain the HSA's must cost my company a lot less or they wouldn't offer them. I also know co-workers who have switched to the plans and don't visit the doctor as often. I am sure some people get unlucky and get cancer or in a bad car accident but the reality is most people don't think at all about their health coverage and spend their money like federal government. What happened to having a nest egg? What happened to eating well and exercising instead of being obese? Why is the nation's out of control health problems (partially caused by lifestlye) my responsibility? Fuck the nanny society. (The following paragraph is not endorsed by the Libertarian platform and is solely panerd's opinion) |
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12-16-2009, 07:41 PM | #6937 | |
Grizzled Veteran
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Quote:
I bet you won't find one Republican or Democrat who is willing to compromise like this. That's the problem. Get rid of the FDA? Kind of extreme. Compromise, not so much so. |
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12-16-2009, 07:45 PM | #6938 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Quote:
This was before I purchased. EDIT: And I'm not in foreclosure. Last edited by SteveMax58 : 12-16-2009 at 07:45 PM. |
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12-16-2009, 07:49 PM | #6939 | |
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Quote:
People are too stupid to look at these things individually. I personally think big government issues should be handled more through reform and individual cases (such as the FDA compromise I stated). But people won't look at it that way and we get the government we deserve. |
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12-16-2009, 07:55 PM | #6940 | |
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Quote:
I agree with personal responsibility. I don't think smokers or morbidly obese should be covered under the plan (they should be at first and told they need to meet requirements for weight loss over a time frame). You could also make those of high risk lifestyles pay more in taxes for it. But there are a lot of things that you can't control. Are you saying that if you didn't save up enough in your lifetime to cover it, you should just die? I don't know if you've seen the costs of health care later in life, but if you think $5700 in a savings account is going to cover it, you're out of your mind. That will barely cover a trip in an ambulance to the emergency room. |
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12-16-2009, 07:58 PM | #6941 | |
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Quote:
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12-16-2009, 08:03 PM | #6942 | |
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Quote:
That's where we disagree. I think we both may overgeneralize but this nation is not made up of what you describe either. Sorry I don't agree that everyone else's health care is my responsibility. Just like I don't agree that everyone else having a job is my responsilbity. We just don't agree on this. I work hard, feel bad for some of the unfortunate, and don't give a fuck about the lazy asses. |
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12-16-2009, 08:04 PM | #6943 | |
College Starter
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Quote:
I this is accurate, but when speaking of the general population...they don't really understand these concepts nor how they're paid for, nor how a politician can "make that happen". But they do know there is a lotta money somewhere and if this politician says it's possible...and the other politician says it isn't...then let's give the optimistic candidate a chance. People tend to gravitate towards people who make big promises without much wherewithal to the consequences of such promises. I probably fall in the camp of different government. I certainly want smaller federal government...and ask the question "Why doesn't everybody?" Government only works when it has checks and balances to it. The continued concentration of power at the federal level will continue until we drop the notion that there are 2 options...ALL private and ALL federal government. I actually think the Health Care debate has become my wildest of pessimistic, anti-government thoughts. It just shows that there is already too much power in the hands of too few. Why do we keep thinking the oligarchy gives a crap about anybody but themselves? States should be initiating things like Healthcare reform...partnering with other states to create larger buying pools where appropriate. |
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12-16-2009, 08:07 PM | #6944 | |
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Quote:
It's $5700 more on top of my regular savings. Unlike the government I plan for unforseen problems in my life. Will it suck if something happens that I can't cover? Sure. Should some fucknut be able to sit on his ass and have the government pay for his laziness? Absolutely not. That's the difference I seem to have with some of this board. A lot of poor people abuse welfare and don't even try to work and I don't care any more about them than I do about somebody who pulls the same shit in Australia. The difference is that some of the people on this board don't care about the Australian but for some reason care about a lazy American piece of shit just because of where he was born. |
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12-16-2009, 08:14 PM | #6945 | |
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And for the record, I agree that this country is really lazy at times and I'm for the reduction in things like welfare. At the same time though, I think health care is something different and I prefer to live in a country that doesn't let its sick die on the streets because they don't have the resources. I'd also add that not everyone in a bad situation is there because they are lazy. This financial mess was caused by a bunch of greedy billionaires who wanted an extra couple bucks on their share prices. As well as some dumb people who signed loans they couldn't afford. That mess has caused a lot of innocent people to lose their jobs through no fault of their own. |
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12-16-2009, 08:23 PM | #6946 | |
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Quote:
I respect your position. You have always seemed capable of seeing other points of view and not sticking with a Democratic or Republican line. I feel like there is a federal reserve/fannie freddie mac/low interest rates component you are missing on your last paragraph but I will agree that some really rich people profited off other people's backs. I just don't buy the number of people dying in the streets due to no coverage being anywhere near the problem it is being presented as. Hilary Clinton gave us the same stories in 1992 and I am sure we could get a headcount somewhere of all of the deaths for the past 15 years. And I said earlier in a post that nobody responded to. I don't want soldiers dying from unnecessary wars or police officers dying fighting a fruitless/unwinnable war on drugs. Outrage comes and go though for the Democrats and Republicans. In the meantime count me as one who just doesn't believe the bill of goods they are trying to sell us on this issue. Last edited by panerd : 12-16-2009 at 08:25 PM. |
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12-16-2009, 08:24 PM | #6947 | |
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You are using the laziness stereotype to avoid any attachment to the issue from a moral standpoint. It's easy to say that you don't feel moral responsibility to have your tax dollars pooled together to pay for this when you've declared every person who doesn't have hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank as fat and lazy. It's unfortunately not the case. There are fat and lazy people collecting, just as there are people who did save what they could but just lost the genetic lottery or had an accident. While your stance would avoid having to save the lives of people who are fat and lazy. It would also let the healthy guy who slipped and fell on some ice die because the hospital wasn't sure he could afford the bill. |
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12-16-2009, 08:29 PM | #6948 | |
College Starter
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Quote:
Not to come off as a giant ass...but doesn't that tell us something? Doesn't that indicate that it isn't possible to do everything we really want to do? We have not been a debt free nation since at least WW2 and we may not always be that interesting to invest in. While I also realize there are federal laws that are in place as well which would likely complicate this notion of states doing things like health care reform...it doesn't mean we should be willing to give the authority over to these people in DC. This isn't a concern about socialism, or any other term used, it's simply about allowing such authority to sucha small group of people who cannot possibly have any of our best interests at heart...and even if they do...we dont have a way to make sure. |
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12-16-2009, 08:31 PM | #6949 | |
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Quote:
If we removed rules and regulations from the health care industry, a hospital could simply open your wallet upon arrival, not find an insurance card, and tell you to find somewhere else to seek medical attention. That without Medicare, most elderly people could not afford medical services and doctors would not have to see them at all. Like I said, there is an argument to be made that says if you didn't save up enough cash for health care, you should be left to fend for yourself. While I'd like to see government take a backseat in a lot of areas, I don't want to be part of a country that has the resources to heal people and chooses not to because they were not able to obtain enough money in their life to pay for it. The irony in your Medical Savings Account stance is that it's still government playing a role. It's still a program put in place by the government to give you tax incentives and run by companies that must abide by specific financial and insurance regulations. If you're against government in any shape and form in the health care industry, you should be opposed to that as well. |
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12-16-2009, 08:32 PM | #6950 |
"Dutch"
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