Werewolf XLVI - Sun And Shadow (Game Thread) - Game Over! Cultists win!

[Joe]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

I can't check it out the researcher is the only one who can.

Right, and I must possess the potion in order to do so. I'm not giving anything away here since it's already obvious what my role is.

[Mustang]

Ok, got the response back from Peregrine about my role so.. here goes.

If you don't like option #1.. option #2...

I'm the spiritmaster. If we all hole up in the ritual room, I can protect us, the downside is that if the Shadow is in the room, they can still attempt but, there is a good chance we will notice them.

Then the research can check out the potion I have and if verified to be the potion of power, we can give to the augur the next day.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I'm not going to stomp my foot and pout if you reveal my role - it is probably not a big deal in the overall scheme of things. But if there isn't a compelling reason to do so in terms of trusts or team strategy, then I don't see the benefit in giving information to the Shadow.

I just wanted to verify what kind of info you collected, in light of today's news about your role. Also, yesterday you had suggested that you knew I wasn't Shadow, which does not appear to be accurate based on how I'm reading the Potion of Identify. I would expect you know that I'm not Sun and that you know my role. But if I'm misunderstanding how this item works, please correct me as I would appreciate the knowledge.

I don't believe I ever said that you were not Shadow. I said that I knew that you were not a Sun and I knew your role. And, in making my lists, I was clear to put that the folks I would not be voting for/checking on at night were those I believed were not Sun and/or I knew (or had strong evidence pointing to) their roles.

[Mustang]

And, I didn't directly say I was the spiritmaster because I was not sure how viewing the Shadow attempts would work and wanted verification from Peregrine before definitely saying what my role was an throwing option 2 out there...

[Peregrine]

I should say that the Spiritmaster is similar to the Ritualist role, but the Ritualist role protects against magical spells, and the Spiritmaster's is more of a physical barrier preventing people from coming into the room.

Also, with either role, you can't coerce people into sleeping in the same room, you have to convince them and they have to put in night orders to that effect.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I agree with you Hoops, this doesn't make sense. The scroll of identity doesn't give power information or shadow information.

Please point out where I said that hoops could not be a member of the Shadow?

I don't believe I ever did, but if so, it was a mistake. I attempted to clearly communicate that he was not a member of the Sun and that I knew his role/powers.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

Also, with either role, you can't coerce people into sleeping in the same room, you have to convince them and they have to put in night orders to that effect.

Understood.

Is there any way to know who slept in the same room? Wouldn't that just be common information?

[Peregrine]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Is there any way to know who slept in the same room? Wouldn't that just be common information?

So far I've just been playing it that you have a chance to notice anything strange going on in your room, especially if you are using a potion of alertness or have a special ability that helps. If people are interested they can ask who was sleeping in their room.

[Alan T]

Ok, time to make the big list to make sure we're not missing any holes here:

1) Mustang - Claims Spiritmaster
2) BrianD - First to out Kwhit
3) ntndeacon -
4) Joe - claims Researcher
5) Swaggs - claims to have Sun Amulet = Wizard?
6) Barkeep49 - Blocked by Alan last night, couldn't have attempted conversion on swaggs
7) Kwhit - Cleansed
8) Lathum - Claims Warlock
9) Chief Rum -
10) Schmidty - Claims Augur
11) Mr. Wednesday -
12) hoopsguy - Vouched as having role by Swaggs. Slept night 1 so couldn't convert Kwhit
13) DaddyTorgo - Outed Tyrith
14) ImTheCrew - Cleansed
15) Tyrith - EVIL!
16) Path12 - Vouched for by ntndeacon as having some role?
17) Alan T - Claims Theurgist
18) SnDvls - Claims Alchemist

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Please point out where I said that hoops could not be a member of the Shadow?

I don't believe I ever did, but if so, it was a mistake. I attempted to clearly communicate that he was not a member of the Sun and that I knew his role/powers.

You didn't say he wasn't shadow, I was just clarifying my reading of the item. It gives role information (including Sun/not-Sun), but it doesn't give mundane power information or Shadow information. I'm wondering where you got mundane power knowledge from.

[Alan T]

Hoops and Joe, you both stated you know who the Witch was? or someone who had the abilitiy to communicate? Is it anyone who would help us narrow down the list of suspects further? Or is it someone who we already feel good about and no need to give that information?

My list above is color coded:
Green are the people claiming jobs some of whom have proven it and others haven't.
Orange are those vouched for by someone else
Purple are people who havent been vouched for but have done "benefitial" actions for us.
Brown are cleansed and Red are the others.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

I used the scroll of indentity on hoops last night. He is not a member of the Sun faction and his role is not one of the two that are "Shadow-friendly." Since I can reveal his role if I am cleansed, I'll hold onto that for him, for now.

Took me a little while to find the post. Looks like my memory was more at fault than your statement. Which is the better of two options, from my perspective. This sounds exactly like what I would expect the Scroll of Identify to provide. Sorry for unintentionally muddying any waters.

[SnDvls]

well Alan I saw you cast a spell last night so that would add up with your role

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Hoops and Joe, you both stated you know who the Witch was? or someone who had the abilitiy to communicate?

You tell me who you would prefer to answer first - I'll either answer now or wait for Joe.

[Swaggs]

By the way, here are three of my quotes from yesterday, that I quickly found, that make it pretty clear that I never assumed hoops to be cleared of being a Shadow member.

I'm not sure why hoops and Brian are trying to alter the information I have given. I know hoops is not one of the two roles that are sympathetic to the Shadow, but he very well could be the final Shadow. Perhaps Brian is one of the Shadow sympathizers. I don't know.

Originally Posted by Swaggs

I've been bouncing this around and I am going to go ahead and put it out there:

I used the scroll of indentity on hoops last night. He is not a member of the Sun faction and his role is not one of the two that are "Shadow-friendly." Since I can reveal his role if I am cleansed, I'll hold onto that for him, for now.

Do we know or presume that the Warlock was the person that put hoops to sleep last night? If so, he could gain a bit of trust, as we would learn that he was performing a night action, rather than a conversion last night.

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Agreed and it will be this way the entire game.

My decision is coming down to roles and seeing if I can interpret anything from how people describe night actions. Knowing that people were not out trying to convert us is informative.

I feel pretty good about myself, Lathum, hoops, Joe, and ITC right now, as far as us not being Sun members and/or attempting a conversion last night.

Chief is a little suspicious to me, as he cannot prove what he did last night (through no fault of his own).

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Alright, I'm going to go ahead and place a vote.

Vote Chief Rum

Vote Punishment

As mentioned, I feel reasonably safe that I know the roles and/or that they are not members of the Sun faction for the following:-Me
-Joe
-hoops
-Lathum
-ITC

That gives me somewhere between a 3-7 chance out of 13 to get one of either the three Shadows, one of the two Shadow-friendly roles (assuming they are not already Shadows), or one of the, presumably, two members of the Sun.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by BrianD

You didn't say he wasn't shadow, I was just clarifying my reading of the item. It gives role information (including Sun/not-Sun), but it doesn't give mundane power information or Shadow information. I'm wondering where you got mundane power knowledge from.

You are mistaken. It most certainly gave me mundane power information.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

well Alan I saw you cast a spell last night so that would add up with your role

Yeah, I feel ok with my role being vouched for. I stated earlier who I targeted and they didn't dispute it. So since only 1 evil player remains after Tyrith, I expect those that had doubt in me before to feel a bit better about me now.

I was looking through the list of who were vouched for and who wern't, and there are still alot of holes there, some we need to find info from Tyrith after he is cleansed on..

A) if the shadow players knew what their former magical role were to start the game, it would be easy to claim a role and thus those on our list whom have claimed roles that haven't been validated or proven shouldn't be considered cleared.

B) I expect a player who converts someone else would know so, thus theoretically someone like Brian could convert Kwhit then turn on him the following day to gain trust. I just feel on day 2 with no huge reason to I don't see that as likely a scenerio that he would have done.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Took me a little while to find the post. Looks like my memory was more at fault than your statement. Which is the better of two options, from my perspective. This sounds exactly like what I would expect the Scroll of Identify to provide. Sorry for unintentionally muddying any waters.

Fair enough.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

By the way, here are three of my quotes from yesterday, that I quickly found, that make it pretty clear that I never assumed hoops to be cleared of being a Shadow member.

I'm not sure why hoops and Brian are trying to alter the information I have given. I know hoops is not one of the two roles that are sympathetic to the Shadow, but he very well could be the final Shadow. Perhaps Brian is one of the Shadow sympathizers. I don't know.

I'm going to give you a chance to re-read my last response to you and respond again before I do.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

You tell me who you would prefer to answer first - I'll either answer now or wait for Joe.

I don't think I'm looking for this answer to validate you or Joe as much as to try to validate someone else. You both know who you are talking about where I don't.. so I guess I'm asking you a question more for your thoughts than trying to get validation for you.. if that makes sense.

I mainly am wondering if the information you two have would help us narrow down the field more... I would say if its more validation for someone we all already feel good about, no need to out it. You can always give that info later "from the grave" so to speak if need be.

[BrianD]

dola, which you already have.

[SnDvls]

did anyone have anything stolen from them last night?

[Joe]

The person with the mask of whispers (not the witch just to clarify) is someone that is trusted on alan's list and in other posts, so no reason to reveal.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by BrianD

You didn't say he wasn't shadow, I was just clarifying my reading of the item. It gives role information (including Sun/not-Sun), but it doesn't give mundane power information or Shadow information. I'm wondering where you got mundane power knowledge from.

might want to re-read the rules on the S.o.I. it says it gives mundane role too.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

Scroll of Identity - This magical parchment can be read one time, to magically learn the role of one player. This will reveal both magical and mundane roles, but not whether a person is corrupted or not. Note that in the case of the Sun spies, this will reveal their TRUE role.

from the rules bolded is mine

[Swaggs]

Alan, DT seemed to try and clear Chief Rum yesterday.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

You are mistaken. It most certainly gave me mundane power information.

I find this interesting since my scroll of identity didn't give me any mundane power information (there may have been none to give), and the description of the item doesn't say that it would give that information.

I'm not saying that you are lying, it just seems that your worked differently than expected...by me at least.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

By the way, here are three of my quotes from yesterday, that I quickly found, that make it pretty clear that I never assumed hoops to be cleared of being a Shadow member.

I'm not sure why hoops and Brian are trying to alter the information I have given. I know hoops is not one of the two roles that are sympathetic to the Shadow, but he very well could be the final Shadow. Perhaps Brian is one of the Shadow sympathizers. I don't know.

Swaggs, I'm going on the assumption that someone with a magical role is not a shadow right now. Thus if you know Hoops currently has a Magical role, then I am assuming that is as good as you vouching for him not being the final shadow.

If Tyrith was the one who converted Kwhit on night 1, then that does leave the door open for Hoops to be the last shadow, but your "vouching" for him is whats keeping him off the suspect list in my opinion right now.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Swaggs, I'm going on the assumption that someone with a magical role is not a shadow right now. Thus if you know Hoops currently has a Magical role, then I am assuming that is as good as you vouching for him not being the final shadow.

If Tyrith was the one who converted Kwhit on night 1, then that does leave the door open for Hoops to be the last shadow, but your "vouching" for him is whats keeping him off the suspect list in my opinion right now.

If you are trying to clear suspects, I think that is a poor assumption to make. Read the description of the SoI, a few posts above by SnDvls, and it clearly says that it will not determine corruption.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Joe

The person with the mask of whispers (not the witch just to clarify) is someone that is trusted on alan's list and in other posts, so no reason to reveal.

Confirmed. It is one of the seven "green" entries on Alan's post.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

might want to re-read the rules on the S.o.I. it says it gives mundane role too.

Mundane role, not necessarily mundane power. I assumed this to mean that the mundane role (of being a Sun member) would be announced, but a mundane power of a cult member wouldn't be announced. Again, I could be reading too much into this.

[Barkeep49]

I think I need to be very clear about this: the green people should not be considered cleared. Having a role is no impediment to being a shadow, otherwise why are there matching roles and players? Peregrine works hard to provide his bad guys cover, having been a bad guy in a previous Peregrine game, and I think this game is no different.

[Barkeep49]

I need to go stonger, I KNOW that this game is no different. Shadow players have a role they can use as cover. Whether or not they can use that role's powers I don't know, but I do know they have a role.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Alan, DT seemed to try and clear Chief Rum yesterday.

This is the discussion from DT on this yesterday

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I don't believe alan or chief are likely shadow-infested.

Originally Posted by Alan T

I would really love to hear how 3 different people have now come out and said they feel that I'm not of the shadow based only on what i Have said.

It feels too much like a "I'll vouch for a good guy to buy trust" type play. Maybe I'm just lucky and alot of people used items or roles to see my boring night, but there sure are alot of people extending me way too much trust for providing nothing more than just words that I have provided no truth or validity to.

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i said "i don't believe." i have no hard evidence about what you were doing last night, or whether you are shadow.

I guess I didn't read it as a vouching as much as just his "feeling". Perhaps he knows more, and this is a good question to ask him when he returns.. but as of now it didnt feel like he was vouching for him as much as just his hunch.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

swaggs...CR is not a good vote on my list.

Post #385

DT seems to know something about CR here.

[hoopsguy]

Swaggs, since you seem to think I have mundane powers and I believe I don't I would be very happy with you revealing this information for discussion.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Swaggs, since you seem to think I have mundane powers and I believe I don't I would be very happy with you revealing this information for discussion.

It was pointed out to me that you do not have a mundane role.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I need to go stonger, I KNOW that this game is no different. Shadow players have a role they can use as cover. Whether or not they can use that role's powers I don't know, but I do know they have a role.

This is what I was getting to earlier.. my fear about people who haven't "demonstrated" using their roles. I am worried that they were given information on what their magical role used to be once upon a time before being converted by the shadow, but just no longer can use it. I am using this part of the rules to believe that:

Originally Posted by Peregrine

Once a player has been converted by the Shadow, they can no longer use their original magical role. They can continue to use mundane roles if they wish.

So my concern is that someone can claim having a role but not having demonstrated using it as of yet.

For instance I am pretty sure you can validate my role today Barkeep, but some of the claimed roles we haven't seen evidence of yet (where others we have).

Maybe we should have a seperate list of validated role claims vs unvalidated role claims?

This is also what I meant in my discussion with Swaggs.. he says he knows what Hoopsguy's magical role is.. which would make me assume he is not a shadow if he has the role.. I guess I wonder if it possibly says what it used to be before he lost it as well?

[hoopsguy]

As I read the PM, the point that may be construed as a mundane power seems to me to be a part of my role. Not as described on Page 1, but in terms of being an element of the role.

Like I said earlier, if I do in fact have a mundane power then the issue here is related to my reading comprehension. It wasn't spelled out "you have mundane power X" or anything along those lines.

[Barkeep49]

Actually I can't validate your claim Alan. I used a mundane power last night. I have no reason to doubt you, but I can't actually say that I had some magic blocked.

[Barkeep49]

DOLA: By mundane I mean I searched a room. Not sure if that's technically a mundane power but it's what I did last night.

[Alan T]

Maybe we can make this list a bit better then with better classifications:

7) Kwhit - Cleansed
14) ImTheCrew - Cleansed

4) Joe - claims Researcher (possibly validated based on finding an item?)
8) Lathum - Claims Warlock (proven by sleeping Hoops night 1 and Tyrith last night)
10) Schmidty - Claims Augur (proven with the info on Kwhit)
17) Alan T - Claims Theurgist (proven by action on Barkeep)

6) Barkeep49 - Blocked by Alan last night, couldn't have attempted conversion on swaggs
12) hoopsguy - Vouched as having role by Swaggs. Slept night 1 so couldn't convert Kwhit
16) Path12 - Vouched for by ntndeacon as having some role?

2) BrianD - First to out Kwhit
13) DaddyTorgo - Outed Tyrith

1) Mustang - Claims Spiritmaster (unproven)
5) Swaggs - claims to have Sun Amulet = Wizard? (unproven)
18) SnDvls - Claims Alchemist (unproven)

3) ntndeacon -
9) Chief Rum -
11) Mr. Wednesday -
15) Tyrith - EVIL!
[/quote]

With most trusted to least trusted groups. Maybe this helps more?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Actually I can't validate your claim Alan. I used a mundane power last night. I have no reason to doubt you, but I can't actually say that I had some magic blocked.

Well thats inconvienant!

[Swaggs]

I don't know how to be any more clear with the information I have. I was informed of hoopsguy's role and specifically learned that he had no mundane role.

That, in no way, clears him of being a member of the Shadow.

[Alan T]

Dola, I still think my action on you should prove that you aren't the last Shadow though Barkeep.. As my action would have blocked you from trying to convert Swaggs, thus you must have used a mundane action or failed on any magical action attempt.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

DOLA: By mundane I mean I searched a room. Not sure if that's technically a mundane power but it's what I did last night.

I wouldn't say this is a power/role or even mundane as it's something we all can do.

[Swaggs]

Alan, I think it is pretty clear that I am the Wizard.

I was trying to fish for more information from them and get them to continue working for us, but I correctly identified one of the Sun Members last night.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

I don't know how to be any more clear with the information I have. I was informed of hoopsguy's role and specifically learned that he had no mundane role.

That, in no way, clears him of being a member of the Shadow.

I think you're being clear enough, at least for my understanding. I think him having a magical role helps some.. but we need the information from Tyrith once he is cleansed what exactly he had in the way of a magical role.

ie: if you had scanned Tyrith, would it have shown his original magical role as well?

I think the rules seem to indicate that whatever roles they had once upon a time, they no longer could use.. so at worst your scan of hoops and knowing he has/had a magical role at worst puts him in the group of dark green players trustwise who have claimed a role without proving it.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

I don't know how to be any more clear with the information I have. I was informed of hoopsguy's role and specifically learned that he had no mundane role.

That, in no way, clears him of being a member of the Shadow.

So what was all the talk about knowing what his mundane power was? That was the only part of your statement that I objected to. You knew that his mundane power was that he had no mundane role?

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Alan T

18) SnDvls - Claims Alchemist (unproven)

sorry but I have to dispute this even if you don't agree.

I used a potion of alertness to see you cast a spell and Mr. W who was also in our room leave our room for a time being. How would I have know you were in the same room as me with out the potion?