Werewolf LXI - Ocean's Eleven (GAME OVER, SEE PAGE 19 FOR RESULT.)

[Lathum]

I need a beer

[jeheinz72]

Well I'd say fake-reveal or not, we vote out SnDvls on this basis

1. He's not cleared on any type of list, fake or not (of course myself and Anxiety aren't cleared on any list either)
2. It's possible one is our seer and one is the arrogant-turned-seer

I'd say we lynch SnDvls, and have one of them scan me and one of them scan Anxiety. I know I'm clean so whoever scans me will get Villager.

[Barkeep49]

There are times when I wish, as GM, that I were not in a game as a player. This is one of those times.

There is a difference of criticizing a person's theory and criticizing a person. Calling someone a “fucking XXXX” is always over that line. Thinking someone is a bad guy is ALWAYS alright. It is stupid sometimes, but it is always a completely acceptable thing to post. That’s the game.

There was a series of games where I was constantly being accused of being a wolf in the early days because of “suspicious” activity. It was absolutely infuriating and was sucking the fun out of the game for me. My choices were to either stop playing or deal with it. I’ve mostly learned to deal with it. I have a great deal of empathy and sympathy for a person getting upset over being falsely accused, and even being falsely accused repeatedly. However, if you are finding that you cannot deal with that, then it’s time to take a break. Having had a mini-break myself (due to a series of early deaths and Thanksgiving) I can tell you that it really helps to revitalize your interest in the game.

And sometimes just taking a step back from the game, as Render seems to have done with his apology, can be enough to get you over your anger and allow you to resume playing. But that’s what we do here: play. Don’t interfere with that.

~Barkeep49, YFWWM

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Telle

Wow.. I didn't expect an answer on that. Ok, that gives me a little more faith on Lathum, clap, and RendeR.

Why Render?

My COT is:
NTN
Lathum
Telle
Clap
Me

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Why Render?

My COT is:
NTN
Lathum
Telle
Clap
Me

Because if RendeR is the wolf-duke, it would be risky to play his duke ability and thus claim the role of villager-duke without knowing whether or not there was a villager-duke.

[path12]

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

so path you have been a seer all along? is this what you are saying?

Yep.

[Lathum]

OK, lets work off 2 lists here.

NTN's list

Barkeep49- cleared night 2
Telle- cleared night 3
RendeR- duke ( claims good duke, claim not countered)
Claphamsa- claimes veteren ( claim not countered)
Lathum- claims bodyguard ( claim not countered)
ntndeacon- claims arrogant seer

so we are left with:

jeheinz72
SnDvls
Path12
Anxiety


Path's list


RendeR- duke ( claims good duke, claim not countered), scanned by Path
Claphamsa- claimes veteren ( claim not countered), scanned by path
Lathum- claims bodyguard ( claim not countered)
Path12- Claims original seer

so we are left with:

sndvls
ntndeacon
telle
barkeep
jheinze
anxiety


Now the interesting thing to me about Path's list is it really does us no good. He has 1 player who is dead and 2 who have revealed roles that haven't been countered.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Now the interesting thing to me about Path's list is it really does us no good. He has 1 player who is dead and 2 who have revealed roles that haven't been countered.

Well, I really can't help that. I think my choices have been sound, I just haven't gotten any useful results yet.

As far as NTN goes, I don't know if he's the arrogant seer or not. All I know is that he said there wasn't any other seer, and that is not true, hence my vote.

[Barkeep49]

I think path's list is fake. I think ntn's information is more likely to be good. I do NOT think his scans have been sound as he's only been verifying role reveals.

vote path

[Lathum]

I agree with barkeep

Unvote sndvls
vote Path

[Barkeep49]

path I just looked over youd d2 posts. I can find no hint or indication that you knew CR was rogue, a potentially dangerous role to the village. Am I missing something? This lack of a hint about the knowledge of a nonvillager suggests to me that your claim is BS.

[ntndeacon]

Unvote SnDvls
Vote Path
I was just waiting for Path to confirm he was the seer. Does everyone notice who his "night one scan" was. he claims as a SEER that he saw Rum was a rogue. THis is not possible by the rules. It was because I recieved this result that I figured I had to be arrogant seer.

[ntndeacon]

as a Seer, he would have seen Rum as a villager.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I think path's list is fake. I think ntn's information is more likely to be good. I do NOT think his scans have been sound as he's only been verifying role reveals.

vote path

While Lathum seems to have gotten the message I don't think I explained this well.

I actually buy that CR is a valid D1 scan. Of course I'd have liked, as I posted in 661, that path hint at the knowledge of him being a rogue D2. Doesn't happen.

Then path chooses, the next two nights, to scan people who gave uncontested role reveals. What is gained by that, long run. I see clap as a possibility, but once that was confirmed I don't see why he'd perform the same mistake a second night. Even better, I don't see why he wouldn't scan Render whose role reveal was VERY much contested. If he's going to scan people with reveals, why not scan the guy whose reveal has caused controversy?

His story doesn't add up. NTN revealed first and his reveal is incompatiable with paths. I tend to give favor to the person who reveals first, but in this case there is nothing to suggest that path's counter reveal makes more sense than ntn's reveal. Hence my vote on path, who as I said yesterday, has seemed to be off all game.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

as a Seer, he would have seen Rum as a villager.

Good point. The rules are explicit that he'd be a simple villager. Not the confusing scan path stated. The lies compound.

[Telle]

Seer: You have the ability to see into others' souls. You, through nightly scans, have the ability to determine whether a character is a wolf or villager. You cannot, however, discover the identity of the rogue through a scan. They will appear to you as a simple villager.

UNVOTE SNDVLS
VOTE PATH

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

as a Seer, he would have seen Rum as a villager.

nice catch

[ntndeacon]

Originally Posted by Lathum

nice catch

Thanks. That is why I needed Path to state he was a seer all along. I knew that his claim was bogus, but needed that bit of proof to make it clear to any doubters.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

path I just looked over youd d2 posts. I can find no hint or indication that you knew CR was rogue, a potentially dangerous role to the village. Am I missing something? This lack of a hint about the knowledge of a nonvillager suggests to me that your claim is BS.

There was plenty of time to out the rogue later, I wasn't going to come out on day 2 with any hints that might have gotten me killed. I was and am more concerned with trying to find wolves, though obviously y'all don't want to believe that until you kill me off.

Which is really weird, by the way. If you wonder about me and believe ntn, have him scan me tonight and if I'm lying lynch me tomorrow. This way you just kill a seer.

I don't have much of a defense other than the truth. I would have revealed last night but was gone more than 3 hours before deadline, and I didn't want to a) reveal that early, and b) reveal and then not be around to answer the questions that would result.

As for the question about my scan of Chief, I went back and without directly quoting the result was along the lines of 'you sense an air of uncertainty about him and don't know which side he might be on'. I thought that was pretty clear it was the rogue, which of course was confirmed the next night.

[path12]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Seer: You have the ability to see into others' souls. You, through nightly scans, have the ability to determine whether a character is a wolf or villager. You cannot, however, discover the identity of the rogue through a scan. They will appear to you as a simple villager.

I don't know what to say about this. All I know is that the PM I received said what I mentioned earlier. If it conflicts with this rule and there was an error made then so be it, but it was clear to me Chief was NOT a simple villager.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by Telle

Wow.. I didn't expect an answer on that. Ok, that gives me a little more faith on Lathum, clap, and RendeR.

Telle, I would direct you to re-read my original statement a bit closer as it does not necessarily state that the wolves have no knowledge about roles, they just did not receive a list of which roles are not in the game. They may/may not have some other information through either initial instruction or eventual game dynamic.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Even better, I don't see why he wouldn't scan Render whose role reveal was VERY much contested. If he's going to scan people with reveals, why not scan the guy whose reveal has caused controversy?

I did scan Render last night. Why would you misrepresent what I said?

[Telle]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Telle, I would direct you to re-read my original statement a bit closer as it does not necessarily state that the wolves have no knowledge about roles, they just did not receive a list of which roles are not in the game. They may/may not have some other information through either initial instruction or eventual game dynamic.

Ok, now I'm just confused.

[PurdueBrad]

Current vote tally (as of 673)-

Path12 (4)- Barkeep49 (659), Lathum (660), ntndeacon (662), Telle (666)
SnDvls (2)- jeheinz72 (626), RendeR (627)
ntnDeacon (1)- Path12 (636)
no lynch (1)- SnDvls (631)

Still to vote: Anxiety, Claphamsa

[jeheinz72]

I see no reason not to switch, that rogue issue seems fishy.

Unvote SnDvls
Vote Path12

[claphamsa]

Well I havent voted becasue Im confused as to which one to belive!

I tend to agree more with PATH but......

NTN sounds more reasonable.

[Lathum]

Clap- can you give a reason why you agree with Path?

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Clap- can you give a reason why you agree with Path?

I said Tend, I WANT to agree with PATH. but.... it just doesnt seem logical.... I dunno. Ill keep listending!

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Clap- can you give a reason why you agree with Path?

He's been convinced since Day 1 that Barkeep is bad.. and NTN cleared Barkeep.

And path cleared Clap.. and we all tend to like the person who clears us

[Lathum]

well then why do you want to agree with him?

[PurdueBrad]

Current vote tally (as of 678)-

Path12 (4)- Barkeep49 (659), Lathum (660), ntndeacon (662), Telle (666), jeheinz72 (675)
SnDvls (1)- RendeR (627)
ntnDeacon (1)- Path12 (636)
no lynch (1)- SnDvls (631)

Still to vote: Anxiety, Claphamsa

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by Lathum

well then why do you want to agree with him?

im still convince BK is bad

[path12]

Originally Posted by Lathum

well then why do you want to agree with him?

Maybe because I'm telling the truth?

[path12]

Originally Posted by Telle

He's been convinced since Day 1 that Barkeep is bad.. and NTN cleared Barkeep.

And path cleared Clap.. and we all tend to like the person who clears us

You know, it's very possible that ntn is the arrogant seer as well, I have no knowledge one way or the other about that. Maybe the message he got about being the only one was a random result as he became aware of his ability, I don't know.

But think about it. A second reveal is oftentimes fake and rarely gets popular support. Knowing that, why the hell do I fake reveal when I've got no heat on me today and the votes are on SnDvls?

If you can answer me that one, then I'll accept your vote for me. Otherwise you're just grasping at straws.

[Lathum]

Path- I was asking myself the same question about why you would reveal today. But IMO you are the best option based on your alleged scan of ChiefRum

[path12]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Path- I was asking myself the same question about why you would reveal today. But IMO you are the best option based on your alleged scan of ChiefRum

And I can't explain that one. I think Brad forgot what he had in the role description, but of course we'll have to wait until after you lynch me to realize that.

I would argue though that that doesn't make me the best option to lynch today. It does make me the best option for ntn to scan tonight.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by path12

And I can't explain that one. I think Brad forgot what he had in the role description, but of course we'll have to wait until after you lynch me to realize that.

I would argue though that that doesn't make me the best option to lynch today. It does make me the best option for ntn to scan tonight.

unless you kill him tonight

[RendeR]

Point: ntn said his PM TOLD him he was the ONLY seer.
Point: Definition of Arrogant: Assuming one is superior or the only one capable
Point: There is a role named ARROGANT seer.
Point: Its a terrible move to be the second one to reveal as anything as no one will believe you without some real heavy evidence
Point: Path12 is, IMO, not one who is going to make a bad percentage play

So I believe NTN's scans are random results
I believe path12's scans are probably correct


I'm still voting for SnDvls. There is no reason to vote off the arrogant seer, no matter which player it is, as the arrogant seer is a VILLAGER.

[jeheinz72]

I am so twisted around right now I have no idea what I'm thinking.

[Barkeep49]

Render: Are you suggesting that path was the arrogant seer who was converted publicly?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Render: Are you suggesting that path was the arrogant seer who was converted publicly?

no, ntn is, based on the wording of what he said his PM said.

[RendeR]

And again, its stupid to vote off either one, they're BOTH villager roles. Better to go after those we already had our list narrowed down to.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Point: ntn said his PM TOLD him he was the ONLY seer.
Point: Definition of Arrogant: Assuming one is superior or the only one capable
Point: There is a role named ARROGANT seer.
Point: Its a terrible move to be the second one to reveal as anything as no one will believe you without some real heavy evidence
Point: Path12 is, IMO, not one who is going to make a bad percentage play

So I believe NTN's scans are random results
I believe path12's scans are probably correct


I'm still voting for SnDvls. There is no reason to vote off the arrogant seer, no matter which player it is, as the arrogant seer is a VILLAGER.

I agree with you, but what if one is a wolf!

[Barkeep49]

Ahh I got it now, in that you think they're both good.

So what's your thought about path claiming to have had a foggy result with his CR scan when the rules state:

Originally Posted by therules

You cannot, however, discover the identity of the rogue through a scan. They will appear to you as a simple villager.

Doesn't that explicitly rule out even a hint being given in the PM?

[SnDvls]

umm...that sure changed quickly didn't it

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Ahh I got it now, in that you think they're both good.

So what's your thought about path claiming to have had a foggy result with his CR scan when the rules state:



Doesn't that explicitly rule out even a hint being given in the PM?

It certainly could, good point. IF path12 is lying and its a fake reveal only the real seer could refute him. Which realy hasn't happened yet.

I believe from the wording of ntn's comments that he is the arrogant seer.

So its something to consider, however, its not a reason to vote him off right now. We have a fairly solid CoT overall and SnDvls is not in either grouping (based on supposed seer scans) So I'm thinking:

A ) Path12 is the real seer and we can trust him, we should lynch one of those uknown players, SnDvls was our first pick, lets roll with that.

or

B ) Path12 is fake revealing in order to pull votes off od SnDvls because he's a more important wolf and to sow confusion, STILL we ought to stick with lynching one of the unknown players, SnDvls was our first pick, lets roll with that.


Either way, there is no good reason in my mind to jump ship onto path12 right now.

[ntndeacon]

Originally Posted by path12

You know, it's very possible that ntn is the arrogant seer as well, I have no knowledge one way or the other about that. Maybe the message he got about being the only one was a random result as he became aware of his ability, I don't know.

But think about it. A second reveal is oftentimes fake and rarely gets popular support. Knowing that, why the hell do I fake reveal when I've got no heat on me today and the votes are on SnDvls?

If you can answer me that one, then I'll accept your vote for me. Otherwise you're just grasping at straws.

I will take a swing at this.

with ten left and 3 cleared through my efforts brings the total to 7. If also those that have claimed to be something are what they claim, then Render, Lathum, and one other (was it clap?) are villagers. bringing the # of possible wolves down to 4. In this scenario the wolves are all in that group of uncleared. after today there would be 8, the next day 6, the next day 4. You need one of those voted for to be a villager. Also I have a sneaking suspicion Iknow which wolf you are. There is only one wolf that really benifits from pulling that ploy besides just causing the havok you have caused....
The Brutal Wolf.
Granted I do not know that is in play, but iwould not at all be surprised if it is. Ithink it is pretty much suspected nowadays.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by RendeR

It certainly could, good point. IF path12 is lying and its a fake reveal only the real seer could refute him. Which realy hasn't happened yet.

I believe from the wording of ntn's comments that he is the arrogant seer.

So its something to consider, however, its not a reason to vote him off right now. We have a fairly solid CoT overall and SnDvls is not in either grouping (based on supposed seer scans) So I'm thinking:

A ) Path12 is the real seer and we can trust him, we should lynch one of those uknown players, SnDvls was our first pick, lets roll with that.

or

B ) Path12 is fake revealing in order to pull votes off od SnDvls because he's a more important wolf and to sow confusion, STILL we ought to stick with lynching one of the unknown players, SnDvls was our first pick, lets roll with that.


Either way, there is no good reason in my mind to jump ship onto path12 right now.

good logic, what if they are both seers and neither is arogatn? (there was one converted to a nromal seer.

vot sundevil

[ntndeacon]

off to class will be back in a bit to continue the discussion.

[PurdueBrad]

Current vote tally (as of 700)-

Path12 (5)- Barkeep49 (659), Lathum (660), ntndeacon (662), Telle (666), jeheinz72 (675)
SnDvls (2)- RendeR (627), Claphamsa (698)
ntnDeacon (1)- Path12 (636)
no lynch (1)- SnDvls (631)

Still to vote: Anxiety