Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[RainMaker]

Is it going to be treated like a secondary title? Just looking at that list if they wanted to make it matter, having Omega win it would make the most sense. If there goal is to make inroads in the US I think they would have to have someone who can resonate with the American audience hold it first.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Is it going to be treated like a secondary title? Just looking at that list if they wanted to make it matter, having Omega win it would make the most sense. If there goal is to make inroads in the US I think they would have to have someone who can resonate with the American audience hold it first.

The suggestion has been (mostly through the Naito angle) that it will be a 2ndary belt, but the highest prestige 2ndary belt.

edit to add: the shiny new secondary title relegating the IC belt to lesser status was the crux of what Naito was bitching about

[JonInMiddleGA]

Discussion here in the batcave lead to some YouTube classic match watching.

Damn I'd forgotten just how good Misawa/Kobashi vs Kawada/Taue '93 was. Kawada was just incredible in that. Might very well best the best executed tag match I've ever seen.

And it really brought into focus how much NJPW now looks like the best of AJPW then.

[SirFozzie]

Jon: Have you seen the "Stop the Matsunaga" angle from 2005-6 in Zero-One? Probably not great technical matches, but a great story (Someone gets mad at the pretty boys not being tough enough, so forms a martial arts group to take them down, loses, brings in the ultimate "tough guy" Mitsuharu Matsunaga (known as Mr Danger in Japan, who is both an experienced martial artist, and um.. a "garbage"/"death" match wrestler). Only to have the monster turn on him and everything and basically become the Michael Myers of Zero-One, basically destroying everything with several Muta level blood.

It's a great angle, Matsunaga basically goes old-school memphis (weapons, throwing fire etcetera, stuff that puroresu fans would normally shit on.) But he takes it to such a mental level that he's just an uncaring monster (include taking out the ring bell wielder and one of the timekeepers with weapon shots.) It's the difference between "honorable rules" and "I will just straight fuck you up with everything"

He drags Zero-One down to his level to try to defeat him. Just great stuff.

Stop the Matsunaga Promo Video - Video Dailymotion

[murrayyyyy]

Cody leaves with ROH Title. Guess it was given away by G1 but it makes sense.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Cody leaves with ROH Title. Guess it was given away by G1 but it makes sense.

Kid pointed out that result from social media last night, we almost simultaneously said "welp, that explains that"

[murrayyyyy]

Okada-Omega III during the G1 in Block B?

Smell someone getting injured and have to forfeit the rest of the tournament.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Okay, making me nuts over here.

"back in the day", meaning the earliest days of the IWC, there was a website that was like THE go-to place for most of the merch from Japan & Mexico. Shirts, DVD, authentic stuff.

Luchasomething? Or purosomething?

What the heck was the name of the place? And is it still around?

edit: the point to all this is that the young 'un is wanting a quality Bullet Club flag

[molson]

Prowrestlingtees isn't quite that old but it's become the place for non-WWE wrestling merchandise.

Edit: I think Highspots has been around a lot longer, and they're still around. It's mostly replica title belts but they sell other stuff. But Prowrestlingtees is the official place - they're basically the middle man between indy wrestlers/promotions and consumers.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

Prowrestlingtees isn't quite that old but it's become the place for non-WWE wrestling merchandise.

Edit: I think Highspots has been around a lot longer, and they're still around. It's mostly replica title belts but they sell other stuff. But Prowrestlingtees is the official place - they're basically the middle man between indy wrestlers/promotions and consumers.

I'd almost swear that I'm thinking of something other than highspots ... but at my age (and as long as the IWC has been a thing at this point) who the hell knows.

[Toddzilla]

I know *exactly* the site Jon is talking about but I, too, am drawing a blank.

[RainMaker]

Pro Wrestling Tees is a really good company. Chicago based and some of the nicest people you will ever come across. Their other company is One Hour Tees and make our softball jerseys every year.

They also have billboards up throughout the city with indy wrestlers like Colt Cabana.

[JonInMiddleGA]

TNA rebrands as Global Force ... Jeff Jarret gets the book (and from the article has apparently had creative control from about the time Anthem took over)

http://www.tennessean.com/story/mone...ion/435802001/

[JonInMiddleGA]

Catching up on last night's Long Beach show ... almost immediately understanding why the show (or at least the first half of it) got a lot of criticism.

I don't know if you could have booked the opener worse, nor made a worse decision that filling a match with some of the most polarizing wrestlers in the world (even within the IWC).

I seriously wonder whether NJPW actually "gets" the U.S. enough to have this appearance be anything more than neutral at best.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Okay, they do NOT need to let JR do commentary live for NJPW ever again.

Misidentifying wrestlers, misdescribing stables ... this is a bridge too far for him at this point, and it's kinda fucking sad.

He's coming across poorly prepared and overmatched ... and that's just during ring introductions.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Okay, they do NOT need to let JR do commentary live for NJPW ever again.

Misidentifying wrestlers, misdescribing stables ... this is a bridge too far for him at this point, and it's kinda fucking sad.

He's coming across poorly prepared and overmatched ... and that's just during ring introductions.

Vern Lundquist would have done better last night.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Catching up on last night's Long Beach show ... almost immediately understanding why the show (or at least the first half of it) got a lot of criticism.

I don't know if you could have booked the opener worse, nor made a worse decision that filling a match with some of the most polarizing wrestlers in the world (even within the IWC).

I seriously wonder whether NJPW actually "gets" the U.S. enough to have this appearance be anything more than neutral at best.

It had plenty of what I hate about New Japan. 4+ man tag team matches. Hoping a lot of them saved themselves for tonight.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

It had plenty of what I hate about New Japan.

Ospreay. That's really all it takes for me to feel hate.

The first match on Saturday really wasn't THAT awful (once they got Gymkata Boy out of the ring). The 2nd match, pretty indefensibile really.

I felt like War Machine & G.o.D. really turned the show around.

And G.o.D. may have to come out of intermission to rescue them again tonight. Who woulda thunk?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Is Ishii, weird as it seems, one of the most versatile guys in the business right now? I mean, watching him escape from a submission (masterfully applied) is more entertaining than most guys matches. That was waaaay better than it had any business being on paper.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Oooh ... interested to hear J.R. directly respond to last night's internet criticism of the 10-man tags.

Live commentary went something like "we're not gonna please everybody here, we're just gonna try. Think of it like the All-Star game, everybody is gonna get their offense in, not going to be much defense"

----

That aside, if J.R. tries to describe LIJ as "the NWO / DX of New Japan" again, so help me I'm gonna be tempted to rip the headset off a fuckin' legend.

He's apparently so disconnected from the product that he doesn't know the $%@#$ difference between LIJ and BC.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Oooh ... interested to hear J.R. directly respond to last night's internet criticism of the 10-man tags.

Live commentary went something like "we're not gonna please everybody here, we're just gonna try. Think of it like the All-Star game, everybody is gonna get their offense in, not going to be much defense"

----

That aside, if J.R. tries to describe LIJ as "the NWO / DX of New Japan" again, so help me I'm gonna be tempted to rip the headset off a fuckin' legend.

He's apparently so disconnected from the product that he doesn't know the $%@#$ difference between LIJ and BC.

Best description I've heard about JR after last night's show was that he seemed to be looking up the wikipedia page and then dropping whatever knowledge he read during the match. I'll probably watch tomorrow day 2.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Highly enjoyable main event on night 2 in Long Beach. And a couple of tough sumbitches.

Night 2 felt much stronger than night 1, despite the presence of a Tanahashi - Billy Gunn match (which wasn't nearly the shit show it could have been). Respect to Tanahashi for apparently pretty humble dude, that match was beneath him but he worked it to the best of his ability.

[murrayyyyy]

ugh...

They actually have pictures with names underneath so JR doesn't fuck up the names as much ������ @newLEGACYinc @johnblud @TheHtial pic.twitter.com/yiVmTE61vp

— Dominic Brook ⓥ ドミニク (@TheDomBrook) July 3, 2017

[Suicane75]

I dunno, I didn't mind J.R.. Yeah, he was redundant, but it had to be hard calling the show live when he hasn't done that with any regularity in a long time. I thought the chemistry between he and Barnett made up for it.

As for the shows, I was disappointed they didn't do more on the opening night with the Luchadores, the Billy Gunn stuff we knew wasn't gonna be anything special at all and while it feels like a waste of Tanahashi, I'd rather he do as little as possible given his injury situation.

I thought the tournament matches, save for Page & Lethal were awesome. Ishii and Omega were the clear MVP's of the weekend.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Ishii and Omega were the clear MVP's of the weekend.

Absolutely this.

I'd give third star honors to G.o.D / War Machine. I felt like their match was the turning point on Saturday.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Night 2 felt much stronger than night 1, despite the presence of a Tanahashi - Billy Gunn match (which wasn't nearly the shit show it could have been). Respect to Tanahashi for apparently pretty humble dude, that match was beneath him but he worked it to the best of his ability.

Wonder if they used Billy Gunn as a way to get Tanahashi over with casual American audience who might not be familiar with Tanahashi.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Wonder if they used Billy Gunn as a way to get Tanahashi over with casual American audience who might not be familiar with Tanahashi.

I didn't get that feeling honestly.

I think that was a) Billy likes working NJPW apparently & they like having him around for a tour now & then, b) Tanahashi was probably on the short list of guys on the roster who could a decent enough match out of Billy without it being horribly awkward and the injury let them keep it competitive looking without doing any real damage to the ace.

[RainMaker]

Question about NJPW. Is the junior division more popular than the heavyweights? Seems like a lot of the big names fight in the junior division.

Also what is the NEVER Openweight Championship? What would be a comparable belt in the United States? One thing with New Japan is the belts and what is seen as more valuable than others confuses me. I really enjoy the wrestling though. Much better than WWE at this time.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Question about NJPW. Is the junior division more popular than the heavyweights? Seems like a lot of the big names fight in the junior division.

Also what is the NEVER Openweight Championship? What would be a comparable belt in the United States? One thing with New Japan is the belts and what is seen as more valuable than others confuses me. I really enjoy the wrestling though. Much better than WWE at this time.

1. I don't think it's more popular right now per se, though I'm not familiar with the dead years (prior to 4-5 years ago). I'd put it on par with a major secondary title when those meant something. And yeah, the division is crazy loaded right now. I'm sort of surprised we don't see more 1 on 1 matches with underneath Juniors or trios matches involving them. Seems it's more of a "wait your turn" type system.

2. The Never title was originally conceived as a belt for younger, lower tier guys with limited experience, but that didn't last long and it sort became just another undercard belt. I'd put it on par with the old TV titles back in the day. World, Intercontinental, Never. How the new US title is going to fit into the picture, who knows. Would not mind the IC or Never being retired honestly. Just doesn't seem like they need 4 heavyweight champions at this point.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Question about NJPW. Is the junior division more popular than the heavyweights? Seems like a lot of the big names fight in the junior division.

Not exactly "more popular" IMO, but at times can be "hotter" or more exciting. The ace(s), however, are typically heavyweights as I recall. And, for example, this weekend's "promotion" of Baretta out of juniors into heavyweights would be seen (again IMO) as just that: a promotion.

Also what is the NEVER Openweight Championship? What would be a comparable belt in the United States?

A lot of people have probably asked that question ... along with WHY is there a ...

It started out in 2010 as a sort of NXT-like belt, for youngsters & company outsiders. That quickly morphed into being an extra heavyweight division belt for NJPW. It has then become the closest thing they'd have to a sort of Hardcore Title ... of the 16 combined title reigns, 9 belong to a combination of Minoru Suzuki (the current) Hirooki Goto, Togi Makabe, Masato Tanaka (the inaugural), and Tomohiro Ishii (the most, 4x).

One thing with New Japan is the belts and what is seen as more valuable than others confuses me. I really enjoy the wrestling though. Much better than WWE at this time.

I feel like there's TEW mod that captures this relatively well right now so I'll lean on it for references, I'll give you the title and the prestige for each. Imperfect but it'll give you some idea I believe. With seven titles that are regular, you can't forget about the various annual tournament titles either, I'll italicize those

G1 Climax - 95
IWGP Heavyweight - 90
New Japan Cup - 85
World Tag League - 85
IWGP Intercontinental - 70
Best of Super Juniors - 70
Super Junior Tag - 65
IWGP United States - 58 (*subject to the future, I figure 75 is the aim)
Super J Cup - 50
IWGP Junior Hvywt - 50
IWGP Tag Team - 50
NEVER Openweight - 45 (*I'd put it currently more like 50)
IWGP Junior Tag Team - 40 (*kinda floats up/down)
NEVER 6-Man Tag - 35 (*I'd personally put this more like 37 now)

I might group the first two almost side by side myself really.

[Mota]

Smash Wrestling has just signed an international TV deal with the Fight Network. They will be airing Thursday nights at 10pm right after Impact Wrestling. I mention Smash Wrestling quite a bit over here, they put on great shows and deserve the spotlight. We have 2nd row seats for the 2nd and 3rd TV tapings.

JULY 20
GOLD Tournament First Round Match
Tarik vs Lio Rush
Smash Wrestling Rewind
Sebastian Suave vs Rosemary

JULY 27
GOLD Tournament First Round Match
Brent Banks vs Kevin Bennett
Smash Wrestling Rewind
Championship No Disqualification Match
Champion Tyson Dux vs Jimmy Havoc

[JonInMiddleGA]

One thing I don't recommend watching, unless you're just really a completionist, is the "Young Lions Project" or whatever they call those monthly shows.

The work the YLs get in the 8/10 man tag matches looks a LOT better than them against each other OR in singles against veterans that look bored as fuck. (Hey, when was the last time you saw Dick Togo work? You get a nice brownie point from me if you even knew he unretired last night after five years absence).

It's pretty well crap, and a single hard camera shoot doesn't help.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Austin Aries granted his release from WWE today. Multiple sources saying it was at his own request, dissatisfied by being relegated to the struggling cruiserweight division.

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Austin Aries granted his release from WWE today. Multiple sources saying it was at his own request, dissatisfied by being relegated to the struggling cruiserweight division.

Based on the tweets he sent out today, it would seem to align with that.

[murrayyyyy]

I know Owens broke a thumb a little while back but is he hurt since they took the US title off him at a house show last night?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Not exactly "more popular" IMO, but at times can be "hotter" or more exciting. The ace(s), however, are typically heavyweights as I recall. And, for example, this weekend's "promotion" of Baretta out of juniors into heavyweights would be seen (again IMO) as just that: a promotion.

A lot of people have probably asked that question ... along with WHY is there a ...

It started out in 2010 as a sort of NXT-like belt, for youngsters & company outsiders. That quickly morphed into being an extra heavyweight division belt for NJPW. It has then become the closest thing they'd have to a sort of Hardcore Title ... of the 16 combined title reigns, 9 belong to a combination of Minoru Suzuki (the current) Hirooki Goto, Togi Makabe, Masato Tanaka (the inaugural), and Tomohiro Ishii (the most, 4x).

I feel like there's TEW mod that captures this relatively well right now so I'll lean on it for references, I'll give you the title and the prestige for each. Imperfect but it'll give you some idea I believe. With seven titles that are regular, you can't forget about the various annual tournament titles either, I'll italicize those

G1 Climax - 95
IWGP Heavyweight - 90
New Japan Cup - 85
World Tag League - 85
IWGP Intercontinental - 70
Best of Super Juniors - 70
Super Junior Tag - 65
IWGP United States - 58 (*subject to the future, I figure 75 is the aim)
Super J Cup - 50
IWGP Junior Hvywt - 50
IWGP Tag Team - 50
NEVER Openweight - 45 (*I'd put it currently more like 50)
IWGP Junior Tag Team - 40 (*kinda floats up/down)
NEVER 6-Man Tag - 35 (*I'd personally put this more like 37 now)

I might group the first two almost side by side myself really.

Thanks. I wasn't aware that G1 was so important. Figured it mattered but not as prestigious as the belts.

I think I got the idea that the Juniors were more popular because of the tag division. Hear a ton of talk about the Young Bucks.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think I got the idea that the Juniors were more popular because of the tag division. Hear a ton of talk about the Young Bucks.

It helps to speak English and be social media savvy

I'm hugely torn about them. They were, upon debut back in their indy days, quite possibly the worst tag team I'd ever seen. I've never completely gotten past that honestly.

I will concede that, paired with/influenced by Omega, they have some purpose. I'll also give them positive marks for their savvy in building themselves toward a brand. And on a recent note, their attempt to mark the passing of Meltzer's dad recently was a top-notch thing to do, full props to them for that.

Do I think they'll remain interesting once an inevitable BC split occurs? Honestly, I don't.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

It helps to speak English and be social media savvy

I'm hugely torn about them. They were, upon debut back in their indy days, quite possibly the worst tag team I'd ever seen. I've never completely gotten past that honestly.

I will concede that, paired with/influenced by Omega, they have some purpose. I'll also give them positive marks for their savvy in building themselves toward a brand. And on a recent note, their attempt to mark the passing of Meltzer's dad recently was a top-notch thing to do, full props to them for that.

Do I think they'll remain interesting once an inevitable BC split occurs? Honestly, I don't.

Is it wrong to think of them as trying to be this generations DX(with their obvious DX/NWO stuff they do)? I mean everyone at some time got sick of the DX shit in WWE but it was probably a different time for everyone.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Is it wrong to think of them as trying to be this generations DX(with their obvious DX/NWO stuff they do)? I mean everyone at some time got sick of the DX shit in WWE but it was probably a different time for everyone.

Well, BC has always (afaik) been modeled on having NWO traits. Part & parcel of the gimmick to me. So for it to work I think you kinda have to be in on the joke & be willing to roll with it.

The stable itself even mimics (intentionally or not) the whole "B-Team" aspect that the NWO devolved into. I mean, Chase Owens? c'mon. Even Fale honestly (poor man's D'Lo Brown).

Aside from Omega (in the current membership) I'd say only Scurll is anything particularly notable without Bullet Club. But if a stable/gimmick/schtick can make a guy meaningful for a time then I'd reckon that makes it successful.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Austin Aries granted his release from WWE today. Multiple sources saying it was at his own request, dissatisfied by being relegated to the struggling cruiserweight division.

That's too bad. I had hoped he would take off. Was friends with him in college. Dorm was right next to mine.

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Well, BC has always (afaik) been modeled on having NWO traits. Part & parcel of the gimmick to me. So for it to work I think you kinda have to be in on the joke & be willing to roll with it.

The stable itself even mimics (intentionally or not) the whole "B-Team" aspect that the NWO devolved into. I mean, Chase Owens? c'mon. Even Fale honestly (poor man's D'Lo Brown).

Aside from Omega (in the current membership) I'd say only Scurll is anything particularly notable without Bullet Club. But if a stable/gimmick/schtick can make a guy meaningful for a time then I'd reckon that makes it successful.

Guerrillas of Destiny are pretty damn good, but what do I know.

[Mota]

Well I watched the Samoa Joe / Brock Lesnar match tonight and it was pretty disappointing. I loved the start, it looked like a real fight, but it went into the repetitive German Suplex portion, and ended really fast. It looked like Lesnar just decided halfway through the match that he was bored and took it home. No buildup to the climax at all, and it just felt like a let down.

Also, WWE continues to be fixated on size. When you look at Enzo and Big Cass, 90% of the people would think that Enzo has the most potential as he is one of the best talkers on the roster and has a ton of charisma. WWE looks at Big Cass because he is 7' tall and you can't teach that, and sees him as the star. They will never learn.

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by Mota

Well I watched the Samoa Joe / Brock Lesnar match tonight and it was pretty disappointing. I loved the start, it looked like a real fight, but it went into the repetitive German Suplex portion, and ended really fast. It looked like Lesnar just decided halfway through the match that he was bored and took it home. No buildup to the climax at all, and it just felt like a let down.

Also, WWE continues to be fixated on size. When you look at Enzo and Big Cass, 90% of the people would think that Enzo has the most potential as he is one of the best talkers on the roster and has a ton of charisma. WWE looks at Big Cass because he is 7' tall and you can't teach that, and sees him as the star. They will never learn.

Disagree on both points. Brock just doesn't have the cardio to do a 20+ minute match. Match was good while it lasted, but I didn't really like the finish. As far as Enzo and Cassgo, Enzo is probably the worst guy from an in-ring perspective on the main roster. I don't think Cass is all that great, but this is senile Al Davis' wrestling promotion at this time. Being 7' tall is like running a 4.3 40 at the combine.

[murrayyyyy]

Did a face win a match last night on screen? I know Heath was announced as a winner while they were doing their backstage stuff. And when the heel won, how many times did the face jump the heel? I mean I know it's mailing it in until Summerslam but still.

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Did a face win a match last night on screen? I know Heath was announced as a winner while they were doing their backstage stuff. And when the heel won, how many times did the face jump the heel? I mean I know it's mailing it in until Summerslam but still.

Sasha won by DQ.

If I was spending what PPV tickets cost, I'd be really mad that they can't find one fan friendly result on the whole card.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by General Mike

Sasha won by DQ.

If I was spending what PPV tickets cost, I'd be really mad that they can't find one fan friendly result on the whole card.

So in the last 2 PPVs for RAW it's Sasha twice, Kalisto and Rich Swann? Building up that next Cena...

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Did a face win a match last night on screen? I know Heath was announced as a winner while they were doing their backstage stuff. And when the heel won, how many times did the face jump the heel? I mean I know it's mailing it in until Summerslam but still.

Braun won. Felt like a double turn to me.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Opening night of G1 Climax group matches was pretty strong at the end.
Sabre Jr & Tanahashi told a pretty good (if telegraphed) story.

Ibushi & Naito probably worth 4.0* to 4.25* at least, fairly well burned the house down once they got going, finish probably wasn't as strong as the final half of the match IMO

First time we've stayed up to watch anything live from Japan.

[RainMaker]

Where do you watch it? Do they have a website/app to pay for?

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Where do you watch it? Do they have a website/app to pay for?

New Japan World.