Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Hatin' life on the building they ran in for that round (the U.S. pre-dawn Tuesday one). I'm tired, blank on the name, but it's horrible for television. I mean, don't televise from there again kind of bad.

Big Palette Fukushima

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's the TNA strategy I guess. Sounds like they must be getting pressure about the TV ratings. They've been using the PPVs to setup TV shows like TNA did. Even saw them push a story about how Facebook might be interested in buying their TV rights when the contract with USA is done.

At least it makes some sense for them. Their current TV contract with USA is worth about $160 Million per year, and its up soon.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by General Mike

Big Palette Fukushima

Looks like Fukinshita on tv

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just saw Omega vs Yano.

And it would have STILL been the 2nd best match on Sunday

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by General Mike

Big Palette Fukushima

They better be able to get nuclear heat in that one.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by General Mike

Giving Cena vs Nakamura away on Smackdown next week doesn't seem prudent, but I guess the business model has changed.

I think it's an interesting choice for a few reasons. I think the most obvious is that it won't be a clean finish next week so no one loses (because no one is pinned), you get ratings and you can have them wrestle for something down the line.

17 is the obvious problem. Do you burn it on Summerslam? I wouldn't. Rumble seems like the spot so Cena can carry it into Mania.

The obvious choice would be to have Nakamura win by DQ. Cena fights whomever cost him the title shot @ SS(Corbin?). Nakamura beats Jinder in Brooklyn where they know he gets a great crowd reaction and have Corbin cash in. This way you can still be in line for Cena-Reigns and AJ-Naka @ Mania.

[murrayyyyy]

Is it too much to hope that all John Cena promos end the way it did with Jinder last night. It got run over by bringing out D-Bryan but if they play it enough, "hit the trumpets" will be the new Suplex City Bitch. Cocky Super Cena is a fun one to watch.

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

They better be able to get nuclear heat in that one.

****3/4

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by General Mike

Giving Cena vs Nakamura away on Smackdown next week doesn't seem prudent, but I guess the business model has changed.

It's just going to end with the obvious Corbin interference. A few months from now, they'll pair them up again and call it the first match and just assume nobody remembers what happens on weekly TV.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think maybe fatigue is setting in for G1 in these middle stages.
Last night (aka pre-dawn Wednesday U.S. time) was by far the weakest show in the sequence thus far. The first where I'd say you could skip it and not have missed anything.

MAYBE a 3.5* as the best match of the night and that's being a little generous about the main event IMO.

[Toddzilla]

oof

Lance Storm on Twitter: "Ummmm. https://t.co/TXAoXhUJv1"

[CrescentMoonie]

I really don't get the fascination with Omega, the Bucks, and other spot monkeys who can do a bunch of moves but don't seem to give a crap about the business.

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

I really don't get the fascination with Omega, the Bucks, and other spot monkeys who can do a bunch of moves but don't seem to give a crap about the business.

Ummmm.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

I really don't get the fascination with Omega, the Bucks, and other spot monkeys who can do a bunch of moves but don't seem to give a crap about the business.

I think it's all about how much exposure people have to them. At times the Bucks can seem like you are using the same move in WWE2K17 but I'm not sure how you can say they don't give a crap about the business. Compare them to Punk or Brock and it's not close who likes the business and who doesn't. They taken the opportunity of youtubing everything like Ryder did and expanded on it. As for Omega, if he didn't care about wrestling he'd be in the WWE doing a program with someone at NXT right now.

I don't understand the hate for spot monkeys. Fans hate the fact that when I see a shoulder block from SuperCena you know the next 2 moves. We lived in eras when a leg drop and a people's elbow were protected moves. How many wrestlers in the past worked the 5 moves of doom?

Ric Flair never had any psychology in any of his matches and you could name the moves that you saw every damn match. He was a spot monkey as this is in every match: Thrown into corner and flipped over it, punched in face to where he would fall forward on his face, worked the leg, figure four eventually push the ref to get pushed down by the ref and that's just off the top of my head. Flair was great on the mic but he was the same as these spot monkeys in the ring but doesn't get grilled for it.

Heck even after I posted I forgot about his chop and a wooooooooooooooo. I mean could you imagine a Flair match without it. It's the same with the Bucks, I can't imagine a match without a superkick by them.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

I really don't get the fascination with Omega, the Bucks, and other spot monkeys who can do a bunch of moves but don't seem to give a crap about the business.

I've been a loooooong time critic of the Bucks but that's not something I've ever even once considered to be one of their issues.

And Omega seems to be one of the more unselfish guys in their prime today. Not once anything I've seen that suggests a lack of respect for the business.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

I really don't get the fascination with Omega, the Bucks, and other spot monkeys who can do a bunch of moves but don't seem to give a crap about the business.

I don't get how you could lump what Omega does in with the Bucks. Have you ever actually watched Omega wrestle an important match?

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I don't get how you could lump what Omega does in with the Bucks. Have you ever actually watched Omega wrestle an important match?

Yeah, and I don't get the hype. I've also watched him do all the inane matches he gets crapped on for, like the one that Storm tweeted about.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Yeah, and I don't get the hype. I've also watched him do all the inane matches he gets crapped on for, like the one that Storm tweeted about.

My sense of it was that Storm was chuckling as much as anything (though with him it can be hard to tell). Sean Waltman tweeted about the same time as Storm, something to the effect that he believed the match was dedicated to Jim Cornette

Seeing it out of context I'm sure it made no sense. In context however, it worked remarkably well in terms of entertainment value. It was ridiculous .. but that was pretty much the point. And it was STILL better than Cena vs Rusev, which didn't appear to be intentional comedy.

Would I have preferred they not put Toru Yano in the G1 field? Yeah.
I could do without seeing him beyond the pre-show 90% of the time.

But if you have to come up with something to do with him night after night during the tournament, then that match was a better option than yet another variation of the same theme he'd done several times already. And I gave Omega a ton of props for being willing to make the most of the situation, for having the courage & confidence to commit to it & play it to the utmost.

It was largely for a Japanese crowd I think. We had a talk about that here in my batcave after the show, how Japanese humor is {cough} a little different than U.S. humor. Look at some of their game shows for example.

I really do think that fatigue -- for wrestlers, announcers, and even fans -- is a legit thing in the middle of the tournament. It's the first time in my life I've watched G1 match for match, it's always been a highlights thing for me previously. The difference in the shows in the middle is considerable compared to the first couple of nights (and, I'm sure, the last couple of nights). The match felt like a way to break that up a little -- for everybody -- and I appreciated it for what it was.

On the broader topic of The Elite in general, there are definitely (at least) two versions of them. The wacky version is definitely a thing, but it's always used in what are essentially throwaway matches, card filler. And those are definitely part of every NJPW show (outside of maybe Wrestle Kingdom?), that's the structure every night and virtually everyone takes a turn in that barrel at some point.

I mean Tanahashi, the undisputed ace of the company, is aligned with Taguchi Japan and it's hard to come up with a sillier gimmick than the combined baseball/soccer team bits they do. And then there's Sanada's Paradise Lock which has been used to comedic effect with the same group.

When it's time to be serious however, there really isn't anyone in the world today I'd trust with a match more than Omega. And while I'm notoriously hard on the Young Bucks even I concede that, on occasion, they can turn it up (Rappongi Vice seems to bring the best out of them being the ultimate example to me).

[General Mike]

anyone hear this Karen Jarrett - Braun Strowman story?

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by General Mike

anyone hear this Karen Jarrett - Braun Strowman story?

Heard people denying it but yeah heard about it. I have a tendency not to believe anything she says.

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Heard people denying it but yeah heard about it. I have a tendency not to believe anything she says.

Supposedly it was in front of a lot of wrestlers though. Obviously no one is going to go on the record and say they saw it right now.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And we get a tape callback in NJPW

[JonInMiddleGA]

Catching up on G1 ... interesting to watch the slow return to heel for Okada.

Mannerisms matter, and he's steadily going into the full bag of heel mannerisms.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Idle commentary thought from G1 ...

Japanese announcers know more English hold/move terminology (in English) than Eric Bischoff.

[RainMaker]

So when did CJ Parker join New Japan and become entertaining? What a career turnaround.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So when did CJ Parker join New Japan and become entertaining? What a career turnaround.

Went back about 2 years ago I guess, suffered through about a year in a young lion's role, sloooowly moved up a little bit and he's over as fuck for several months now.

Booking him strong in G1 seems like a direct response to the reaction he was getting in some really low profile stuff. I can't say that I entirely understand how/why he's gotten over with them (some "fighting spirit" spots have definitely been part of that) but no denying it's happened.

[RainMaker]

I think everyone likes an underdog story. Something WWE has been unable to do on their own for some time. Not giving them credit for Daniel Bryan because they were forced into it.

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think everyone likes an underdog story. Something WWE has been unable to do on their own for some time. Not giving them credit for Daniel Bryan because they were forced into it.

Did they ever do it even before that?

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by General Mike

Did they ever do it even before that?

They try often just dont know how to properly set it up. Rushed PPV matches.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by General Mike

Did they ever do it even before that?

You probably have to go back to the early Sean Waltman push.

[RainMaker]

I don't watch Raw much but my God is Maryse insanely hot. I don't know how Miz pulled that off.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by General Mike

Did they ever do it even before that?

They try to give underdog stories to people who aren't underdogs. Like almost all of Cena's storylines turn out to be "Cena overcoming the odds stacked against him". They've been trying to do the same with Reigns.

Last time I remember them doing it on their own in the past was with Rey Mysterio. Mankind winning his first WWE Championship was a bit of an underdog story too.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by General Mike

Did they ever do it even before that?

Wasn't this Punk's entire program with the WWE? The voice of the voiceless.

Plus Juice hasn't won anything. What is he, 16th in the G1? IMO, Juice is the equivalent of Ty Dillinger right now. Maybe even Sami Zayn(who is the WWE underdog right now with Enzo).

The Miz was an underdog who got pushed, Zack Ryder (twice), Santino Marella, any of the NXT invasion guys. Curtis Axel had a the IC for a half a year I think. Cesaro had a pretty decent US title run a few years ago. Even Kalisto had a run with that belt. Neville was the underdog for a while.

The WWE has plenty of pushes of underdog guys.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't watch Raw much but my God is Maryse insanely hot. I don't know how Miz pulled that off.

Greatest underdog story of them all.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Wasn't this Punk's entire program with the WWE? The voice of the voiceless.

I think he was played more as anti-hero than underdog though.

With Juice and this year's G1, that he's in it at all is probably the storyline for him here, not where he finishes. The intent feels like this to be the start of his story, not the end of it. He seems to be on the brink of a push that would have to be entirely unexpected based on his history.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I think he was played more as anti-hero than underdog though.

With Juice and this year's G1, that he's in it at all is probably the storyline for him here, not where he finishes. The intent feels like this to be the start of his story, not the end of it. He seems to be on the brink of a push that would have to be entirely unexpected based on his history.

But Juice is an underdog eating pins. He lost to Sabre in US tournament in round one and may have only 1 more chance for a victory with Yano as I doubt he pins Elgin, Omega or Sanada. Meanwhile Sabre is sitting at the top in his first G1.

When the WWE does this with someone (pick your NXT young call-up) they are burying them or misusing them while it seems like NJPW gets a free pass. I'm not saying it's not good for Juice to gain the experience or exposure but I don't he is going to get the EC3 treatment from NJPW.

[murrayyyyy]

Another example of an underdog getting a push in the WWE would be James Ellsworth. A jobber who got a 2 year deal and had a program with AJ Styles on Smackdown for two months.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

But Juice is an underdog eating pins. He lost to Sabre in US tournament in round one and may have only 1 more chance for a victory with Yano as I doubt he pins Elgin, Omega or Sanada. Meanwhile Sabre is sitting at the top in his first G1.

When the WWE does this with someone (pick your NXT young call-up) they are burying them or misusing them while it seems like NJPW gets a free pass. I'm not saying it's not good for Juice to gain the experience or exposure but I don't he is going to get the EC3 treatment from NJPW.

I don't think it's a free pass so much as it is higher confidence that there's some sort of rhyme, reason, or rational thought behind what we see. Plus there is an entirely different system in use there, the whole young lions thing.

That Robinson was included at all IS an interesting development IMO, and suggests an elevated push. He's not simply being fed to guys for squashes, which is very much what WWE tends to do too often. There's a much greater sense of WWE guys being treated as "disposable" than I see with NJPW.

One of the more interesting things to watch during G1 has been subtle differences in how certain YL's are being used / being allowed to work in the tag matches that precede the group matches. More than usual, IMO, you can tell who is closer to graduating onto the regular roster, what they might be thinking in terms of their future use, etc.

While I don't think Juice is destined for an EC3 rocketpush, he's been booked strongly enough that we had a batcave discussion in the past week about whether they'd been willing to let him eventually (and in NJPW that means years,not weeks) rise into the main event tier & be at least an IC / US contender if not a legit IWGP HW contender.

[CrescentMoonie]

I could definitely see Juice being someone that gets elevated to eventually being in the US picture as long as NJPW keeps trying to expand globally and keeps a working relationship with ROH or someone else in the US. Having more than just the typical group of gaijin might be needed as they move into more and more English speaking areas.

[General Mike]

Thought Cena-Nakamura was really good for a TV match. A little sloppy in spots, but Nakamura brought it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Interesting to see comments about "what a bad bump Cena took" but several workers on Twitter mentioning what a "Japanese bump" it was & how those happen several times a night there.

*I saw the clip, it was a straight up scary-but-standard NJPW bump, with too much neck involved on the landing.

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

But Juice is an underdog eating pins. He lost to Sabre in US tournament in round one and may have only 1 more chance for a victory with Yano as I doubt he pins Elgin, Omega or Sanada. Meanwhile Sabre is sitting at the top in his first G1.

When the WWE does this with someone (pick your NXT young call-up) they are burying them or misusing them while it seems like NJPW gets a free pass. I'm not saying it's not good for Juice to gain the experience or exposure but I don't he is going to get the EC3 treatment from NJPW.

I think it's more that WWE slots guys in a position on the card pretty quickly. Look at Tyler Breeze, when he came in he had some matches with Ziggler and Ambrose and got some wins, but eventually he's trading wins with Zack Ryder or Jack Swagger on Superstars and Main Event and whatever other shows they have that no one watches. Breeze has finally recovered thanks to a fun gimmick, but he's never gonna be much more than midcard it seems. Robinson losing matches in the G1 to some of the top guys in the company doesn't feel like the same thing, and he'll probably get 2 more wins

[Mota]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think everyone likes an underdog story. Something WWE has been unable to do on their own for some time. Not giving them credit for Daniel Bryan because they were forced into it.

WWE doesn't understand the underdog story. For them, the underdog is a complete jobber who loses all of his matches, and then pulls off an upset in a totally flukey way. The fans don't buy into it because they know that cheering for this guy will not pay off for them in any way.

[RainMaker]

It also takes planning to do an underdog story. WWE doesn't know what it's doing minute to minute.

One of the funny stories I saw was that the finish to Owens-Styles at Battleground wasn't really a botch. Vince literally changed his mind in the middle of the match and sent it in to the ref which caused confusion.

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It also takes planning to do an underdog story. WWE doesn't know what it's doing minute to minute.

One of the funny stories I saw was that the finish to Owens-Styles at Battleground wasn't really a botch. Vince literally changed his mind in the middle of the match and sent it in to the ref which caused confusion.

Sure, but even back in the 80s when they were planning things 12 months ahead of time, they couldn't pull off an underdog story.

Looking back at real sports, Look at some of the highest rated World Series. 1991, Braves vs Twins, 2 teams who finished dead last the year before. Last year with the Cubs vs Indians, 2 teams who hadn't won the big one in forever. Red Sox in 2004 as well was higher rated than the previous few years.

That brings me back to the underdog storyline, and they kinda did it with Benoit in 2004. He was a guy who everyone thought was good, but he never got the really big win.

[molson]

The examples of underdogs (Braves v. Twins, Cubs v. Indians, Benoit, Bryan), don't sound much like Juice Robinson in the G1. He's won 2 matches and might win 2 more. So that's a guy that's expected to win zero matches winning a few instead (but still less than half). That's not something that would get anyone excited in WWE. A guy like that would definitely still be considered buried and misued as soon as the run stopped, if he was popular on the internet. The WWE has pushed guys from a jobber level to a midcard level, but if the push ends at the midcard level, it was a failure. If Juice Robinson doesn't win the G1, and if he falls short of the main event in the next year or so, I'm guessing that there won't be a ton of complaining that there was no payoff like there would be in the WWE. Main eventing and being at the very top of the company is the ONLY accepted payoff in the WWE, and they haven't figured out a way to have 15 main eventers at the same time yet.

New Japan is booked better than the WWE, but I think a lot of WWE fans have reached this point of cynicism where everything just automatically sucks but they keep watching anyway. You just don't see the same level of scrutiny of booking decisions and wins and losses in New Japan or any indy show, where fans are much more willing to go with the flow.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

You just don't see the same level of scrutiny of booking decisions and wins and losses in New Japan or any indy show, where fans are much more willing to go with the flow.

You're obviously not sitting here in the batcave with me & the kid. We've pretty much picked apart -- pro AND con -- every outcome thus far. We parse not only wins & losses but also who gets/takes the pin in the tag matches, just to see if there's anything meaningful there. We've also made several TEW references ("so-and-so doesn't click with so-and-so" being the primary) on occasion, and criticized the seeming lack of anything being called in ring even when the situation probably called for it. But at this point that's how we watch pretty much any wrestling, so long as the quality in-ring isn't so low that it makes the booking a secondary consideration.

G1, however, is also an animal that doesn't exist in the WWE universe, though they could do a helluva entertaining version of it if they chose to.
(Q: Does the format exist in any other promotion? I'm thinking no but maybe I'm missing something somewhere)

It requires a completely different mindset to viewing I think, watching it with the expectation of 1-2 losses for everybody regardless of who they are. It's more like ... baseball in that regard, at least taking the tournament in isolation.

--------

On a sidenote of sorts, just to avoid a dola here, I thought it was pretty telling tonight when the kid got home from a day out & about & immediately started the on-demand of the latest G1 day without bothering to turn on Smackdown ... despite the fact that he knew who the main event was. Probably even more telling that I didn't have the foggiest idea what the main was, nor did I give the show a second thought until he mentioned the outcome & I watched the clip of the Cena bump. And I'd have expected that to be a good match ... problem is that, at this point, I don't really care about it except in isolation.

THAT is how little faith I have in WWE's ability to book anything remotely properly. THAT is what having Jinder f'n Mihal as a "champion" has done for me.. THAT is what having a barely part-time wrestler as a champion has done for me. THAT is what years of fan abuse at the hands of VKM has done to me. They couldn't properly book a fucking flight except by accident, and that has eliminated my ability to engage with the product outside of specific matches. They have a considerable amount of talent at their disposal, guys who can flat out go ... they've just consistently refused to do enough with them for me to really give a shit at this point, on the odd occasion they get something relatively right I know they'll not only inevitably fuck it up but that they'll do so as quickly as possible.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by General Mike

Sure, but even back in the 80s when they were planning things 12 months ahead of time, they couldn't pull off an underdog story.

Looking back at real sports, Look at some of the highest rated World Series. 1991, Braves vs Twins, 2 teams who finished dead last the year before. Last year with the Cubs vs Indians, 2 teams who hadn't won the big one in forever. Red Sox in 2004 as well was higher rated than the previous few years.

That brings me back to the underdog storyline, and they kinda did it with Benoit in 2004. He was a guy who everyone thought was good, but he never got the really big win.

Look at the Bayley storyline in NXT. She was always really good, and she was always over, but for some reason couldn't win the big one. When she finally won, it was a huge deal.

In the WWE they burden her with the underdog label, and immediately begin treating her like like she is a trash wrestler. The fans turn on her because she is a loser, and now you get "Bayley sucks" chants at the arenas. That's how NOT to do an underdog story.

[CrescentMoonie]

Good call on Bayley, and some hope for the future when Vince finally dies.

As for Juice, I don't think anyone holds him in that high of regard but his story could end up like the Cubs last year. Ton of talent, everyone expecting them/him to break out, but for the most part when it finally comes together it all does at once.

[molson]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

As for Juice, I don't think anyone holds him in that high of regard but his story could end up like the Cubs last year.

The Cubs won the championship. But I don't see anyone complaining if Juice doesn't win the G1, or doesn't become the top guy in the company in the next few years. New Japan is still "allowed" to do a underdog story that ends before the main event. The WWE really isn't.