COVID-19 - Wuhan Coronavirus (a non-political thread, see pg. 36 #1778)

[Edward64]

With vaccines having a 95% success rate ... if I take the vaccine, how can I find out if I'm in the 95%? Is it a measure of antibodies?

[PilotMan]

Roll 2d10

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Roll 2d10

3d6 actually

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Roll 2d10

This board needs a like button.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Well, this isn't the first group of people that Brian claims to know an entire set of, that isn't represented by a single person here or a single person known by anybody here. Do all these medical professionals come from the Reason.com comments, by any chance?

Why does the first part surprise you in the slightest? Sports sim games don't exactly represent the majority of the populace. As has been demonstrated repeatedly, this board doesn't represent America proportionally in many ways, not the least of which is opinion on politics, the coronavirus, etc. It would be far more shocking if people on here didn't know others who were different from what's reflected on the board.

I'm talking about people I've served at church with. People I've sang with. People who I know the names of their children, where they live, people who trusted me and I them with personal information I wouldn't share on this board. People who have helped me through crises in my life and whose character I hold in high esteem for the most part, with full justification.

Not that it's the slightest bit relevant, but I don't frequent Reason.com.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Even if you don't believe in science and think masks are ineffective, there is no harm in wearing them. It's like using a blinker at a light when there are no cars around.

Not necessarily. Mask use can contribute to other health problems, and that's before you get into other factors like contributing to lemming-like behavior, reinforcing panic, the political aspects regarding government control, etc. If someone believes that masks are ineffective, I don't think it's at all a stretch to go from there to think doing so is harmful. If I thought they were ineffective (I don't, as discussed many times), I wouldn't wear them.

Originally Posted by Edward64

not sure what the study is but how could it not help lessen the spread, even some?

There are lots of potential reasons. One would be masks themselves spreading by getting contaminated by virus and helping spread it, not being cleaned often enough or properly disposed of, people relying on the mask instead of social distancing, masks not actually being effective in preventing the spread of droplets, etc.

One of the issues that often comes up is that the studies showing transmission mitigation often are measuring large droplets, whereas the argument is made based on studies such as Yang 2011, Balazy 2006, Yezli and Otter 2011, etc. that smaller particles than even a N95 mask is capable of filtering out are responsible for most disease transmission. A number of studies backing this up show no improvement in N95 vs. normal surgical masks in influenza transmission, etc. A representative statement is this:

Originally Posted by Denis Rancourt, Phd

It would be a paradox if masks and respirators worked, given what we know about viral respiratory diseases: The main transmission path is long-residence-time aerosol particles (< 2.5 μm), which are too fine to be blocked, and the minimum-infective dose is smaller than one aerosol particle.

I'm not saying they are right about this, I think there's a strong and convincing scientific consensus for mask-wearing, I've been in favor of most of the restrictions enacted to date so far, etc. At the same time though, it's not at all a stretch and a worthwhile exercise in unity and empathy to understand how people can come to the conclusion that this consensus may be more fear-based than rational, view it as an overreaction, desire to just do something in order to be seen as doing something rather than assess correctly, etc. It's not a case of wanting the vaccine, masking, etc. if you believe in science. Some believe in science and that's why they're against those things. Not everyone who is scientifically minded is going to search out and thoroughly personally read stuff debunking people like Rancourt. Some will just see something confirming their presuppositions and be done with it - and of course that's a phenomenon definitely shared by a certain number on the other side of the issue as well.

[albionmoonlight]

Watching my extended family all post in the Facebook Christmas party group just seems so strange.

It isn't like there are long screeds about the fake pandemic or MUH FREEDUMS.

There is just a complete and utter non-acknowledgement of it. Everyone is going to come in (some from out of town), bring a covered dish, and cram next to each other for 4 hours.

[Lathum]

I was talking to my daughters Girl Scout troop leader yesterday who is a doctor. She said she has tons of sick patients and every single one of them went to a large thanksgiving gathering.

[Vegas Vic]

Fantastic idea. I hope it comes to fruition.

NFL plans to invite vaccinated healthcare workers to Super Bowl LV, Roger Goodell says in memo

[molson]

What type of colleterial studies and research are the "temporary" anti-vaccers utilizing to ensure the vaccine is safe for them? It's just funny to me that they don't trust the results of the trials, the conclusions of the medical authorities, and the science built upon decades of vaccine research, but maybe if they eyeball some people in their neighborhood who took it and they don't turn into Democrats or homosexuals or something then they'll decide if it's OK to take down the road.

If too many people sit out the vaccine, even on a "wait and see" basis, we're not getting anywhere close to normal until much longer down the road, years maybe. I just hope that they are excluded from regular life as much as possible as we head back - and that proof of vaccination is a prerequisite to get onto a plane, etc.

There will be adverse effects, maybe even serious ones. But this is an emergency situation. We glorify military service, giving back to your community, etc. Sitting it out based on on what we know now is cowardly and selfish. Worst than draft dodging, because the sacrifice required is much less. But the stakes might be higher.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Not necessarily. Mask use can contribute to other health problems.

My local grocery store parking lot is littered with the corpses of people who wore a mask inside to do their grocery shopping. There's just nowhere to put all of the bodies, so we just drive around them. RIP.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Not necessarily. Mask use can contribute to other health problems,

Which health problems do cloth mask use contribute to?

I guess we could say they can exacerbate problems with say, claustrophobia or autism. But beyond that, how do masks contribute to health problems?

SI

[Ben E Lou]

There are multiple medical studies that indicate that masks can be detrimental in certain situations. No idea how credible they are.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Not necessarily. Mask use can contribute to other health problems, and that's before you get into other factors like contributing to lemming-like behavior, reinforcing panic, the political aspects regarding government control, etc. If someone believes that masks are ineffective, I don't think it's at all a stretch to go from there to think doing so is harmful. If I thought they were ineffective (I don't, as discussed many times), I wouldn't wear them.

There are lots of potential reasons. One would be masks themselves spreading by getting contaminated by virus and helping spread it, not being cleaned often enough or properly disposed of, people relying on the mask instead of social distancing, masks not actually being effective in preventing the spread of droplets, etc.

One of the issues that often comes up is that the studies showing transmission mitigation often are measuring large droplets, whereas the argument is made based on studies such as Yang 2011, Balazy 2006, Yezli and Otter 2011, etc. that smaller particles than even a N95 mask is capable of filtering out are responsible for most disease transmission. A number of studies backing this up show no improvement in N95 vs. normal surgical masks in influenza transmission, etc. A representative statement is this:

I'm not saying they are right about this, I think there's a strong and convincing scientific consensus for mask-wearing, I've been in favor of most of the restrictions enacted to date so far, etc. At the same time though, it's not at all a stretch and a worthwhile exercise in unity and empathy to understand how people can come to the conclusion that this consensus may be more fear-based than rational, view it as an overreaction, desire to just do something in order to be seen as doing something rather than assess correctly, etc. It's not a case of wanting the vaccine, masking, etc. if you believe in science. Some believe in science and that's why they're against those things. Not everyone who is scientifically minded is going to search out and thoroughly personally read stuff debunking people like Rancourt. Some will just see something confirming their presuppositions and be done with it - and of course that's a phenomenon definitely shared by a certain number on the other side of the issue as well.

They can use pseudo-science all they want to justify it but I can tell you exactly who they voted for and who they would kill to show allegiance to him.

[cuervo72]

Like if you're a superhero and you fly too close to an airplane engine; mask might get sucked in.

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

There are multiple medical studies that indicate that masks can be detrimental in certain situations. No idea how credible they are.

Even if this is a legitimate concern, the impacted person could wear one of those plastic face shields. Granted, I fall under the lemming category but it seems like such a small sacrifice.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Like if you're a superhero and you fly too close to an airplane engine; mask might get sucked in.

NO CAPES!

SI

[Edward64]

Looks as if Moderna's vaccine will be approved.

Keep'em coming.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

There are multiple medical studies that indicate that masks can be detrimental in certain situations. No idea how credible they are.

Largely not. Heck, most that get touted don't even claim to show an actual health issue. Like the one where they have people exercise hard and show that even then effect on oxygenation is minimal. And still it gets touted. "See, there is an effect !"
Others look at strains on HC workers wearing masks for hours. Even others show you can on purpose grow virus/bacterial cultures on certain materials (as a proof of concept to use those when proper material is in short suply). Even others show that masks contain bacteria, that are on the skin for most people anyway (like S.Aureus) and thus you expect them in masks of course too.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by sterling ice

Which health problems do cloth mask use contribute to?

I guess we could say they can exacerbate problems with say, claustrophobia or autism. But beyond that, how do masks contribute to health problems?

I think mental health is a big part of it. But aside from that people with breathing difficulties need an unobstructed flow, there have been reports of increased headaches, I've personally had issues with it obstructing vision, etc.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I can tell you exactly who they voted for and who they would kill to show allegiance to him.

There are more things in heaven and earth sir, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

[Edward64]

Went to my dentist today and we discussed if dentist and wife (dental assistant) would be up first. Husband said yes, wife said not early adopter. No, they are not Trump supporters.

Interestingly, the dentist said he has not heard any news/plans on him and practice getting the vaccine. No communication what so ever. I guess he is lower on the list but still should be in the initial group.

BTW, I continue to be impressed by how careful my dentist is with patients. From the front lobby chairs nicely spaced apart, a glass shield at the front desk, gargling with whatever, motion sensor bathroom trash can, foot sensor faucets, plastic stickies on their equipment, masks and face shields & scrubs, and a big "air suck" machine in each station. I don't know how effective the last thing is but every little bit helps I guess.

[Atocep]

I'm scheduled to get the vaccine in about an hour and a half.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I'm scheduled to get the vaccine in about an hour and a half.

You won the lottery!

Any concerns? Even a little bit? Let us know if you start craving brains ...

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

You won the lottery!

Any concerns? Even a little bit? Let us know if you start craving brains ...

Not really. They sent an email out at 11 offering it to all staff through a link to schedule a time. I took the first available time. The guy working next to me has the slot 15 minutes later.

[sterlingice]

One of my family members works at a hospital where they’ve had the vaccine since Tuesday afternoon and, as of last night, already 1200 front line workers have been vaccinated (1st dose, Pfizer) as of last night. They have about 4500 doses and expect it all to be administered before New Year’s.

Also, the stories about extra doses in the vials is true with this one. Apparently, it’s common practice to overfill vials with additional vaccine to make sure there is extra to give each dose. They’ve noticed 6 and sometimes even enough for 7 doses in the vials and have been given the go-ahead from CDC (or maybe it was FDA – I forget which) to inject the additional one (but not two) if there is enough to do it safely. So maybe we’re talking a few hundred more doses, too.

SI

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

One of my family members works at a hospital where they’ve had the vaccine since Tuesday afternoon and, as of last night, already 1200 front line workers have been vaccinated (1st dose, Pfizer) as of last night. They have about 4500 doses and expect it all to be administered before New Year’s.

Also, the stories about extra doses in the vials is true with this one. Apparently, it’s common practice to overfill vials with additional vaccine to make sure there is extra to give each dose. They’ve noticed 6 and sometimes even enough for 7 doses in the vials and have been given the go-ahead from CDC (or maybe it was FDA – I forget which) to inject the additional one (but not two) if there is enough to do it safely. So maybe we’re talking a few hundred more doses, too.

SI

Is this voluntary? And any ramifications if someone declined to take it or defer it till late (e.g. Feb)?

[sterlingice]

Sounds totally voluntary. If you are in the first phase or two and decline to participate, you can get into a later phase - you just don't get higher priority and you're sloshed into the later bucket with everyone else.

Typically they have a system to know if you took your annual flu shot or not and you have to go through a lot of extra hoops if you opt out of it. However, it sounds like the messaging is "hey, this is an experimental vaccine and this is an EUA not a standard one". There may be strings attached later but right now it sounds like they're just trying to get through as many as they can and use up their allocation.

There's also a bunch of special care like how once the vaccine is out, it can't be returned to refrigeration so they have an extra pool of people that can take the extra doses at the end of the day. However, they're also constrained in that state guidelines say it has to go to certain categories of front line responders so you can't, say, start just giving it to other staff, but certain things like food staff and some IT are included.

It's pretty interesting to hear about it from a logistics standpoint.

SI

[henry296]

Similar process for my wife who works in a hospital. Any employee who wants the vaccine submitted a request form and they were going to build out a schedule to prioritize, but figured they had enough to get through all of them by the end of January. Still waiting for her time slot.

[RainMaker]

Has there been any word on why they cut some vaccine distribution to some states by almost half? Saw Illinois and Nevada on the list unfortunately.

[miami_fan]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/17/polit...ion/index.html

A Health and Human Services spokesperson said reports of jurisdictions' allocations being reduced "are incorrect," and that overall states will receive their full supplies, though deliveries may be spread out over a longer time frame.

"As was done with the initial shipments of Pfizer vaccine, jurisdictions will receive vaccine at different sites over several days. This eases the burden on the jurisdictions and spreads the workload across multiple days. This same process was successfully used for the initial distribution of Pfizer's vaccine, and we are simply applying lessons learned," the spokesperson added.

[Ghost Econ]

It's been exploding here. For a while it hovered between 100-200 a day in the county (500k people). Today was almost 650 and it's been over 400 a day for 2 weeks. I have no idea what's happening up here.

[Atocep]

So I'm still alive and no extra limbs or anything yet. It burned a bit for me going in, but the guy I work with said he didn't feel anything. No issues or even soreness yet.

They said bad reactions tend to occur within the first 15 minutes of getting the shot. I'm supposed to follow up in 3 weeks to get the 2nd dose.

[21C]

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Atocep

So I'm still alive and no extra limbs or anything yet. It burned a bit for me going in, but the guy I work with said he didn't feel anything. No issues or even soreness yet.

They said bad reactions tend to occur within the first 15 minutes of getting the shot. I'm supposed to follow up in 3 weeks to get the 2nd dose.

Damn I was hoping we'd get an extra limb or superpowers! Isn't that how superhero origins work? Seriously glad you got the vaccine and hope it does its job

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

So I'm still alive and no extra limbs or anything yet. It burned a bit for me going in, but the guy I work with said he didn't feel anything. No issues or even soreness yet.

They said bad reactions tend to occur within the first 15 minutes of getting the shot. I'm supposed to follow up in 3 weeks to get the 2nd dose.

Three weeks until freedom.

[PilotMan]

I'm just really glad that the election is over so this whole Covid thing could finally disappear like it totally has.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Atocep

So I'm still alive and no extra limbs or anything yet. It burned a bit for me going in, but the guy I work with said he didn't feel anything. No issues or even soreness yet.

They said bad reactions tend to occur within the first 15 minutes of getting the shot. I'm supposed to follow up in 3 weeks to get the 2nd dose.

I hear the 2nd dose is a doozy, like you should be prepared to take a day or two off.

[Ksyrup]

Both my girls got Covid back in November. It's been almost a full month since Mackenzie's isolation/quarantine ended. HS basketball practice was allowed to officially start this week and her doctor cleared her. Well, she's been shut down with headaches, dizziness and general inability to concentrate (including during an online test).

I already had little patience with the "...but 99% survival rate!" idiots, but now it's even more clear that this isn't just some typical illness you easily get over. And this comes on the heels of one of Caitlin's former softball teammates getting a Covid-related heart condition that shut her down for a minimum 4 months.

[Brian Swartz]

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Both my girls got Covid back in November. It's been almost a full month since Mackenzie's isolation/quarantine ended. HS basketball practice was allowed to officially start this week and her doctor cleared her. Well, she's been shut down with headaches, dizziness and general inability to concentrate (including during an online test).

I already had little patience with the "...but 99% survival rate!" idiots, but now it's even more clear that this isn't just some typical illness you easily get over. And this comes on the heels of one of Caitlin's former softball teammates getting a Covid-related heart condition that shut her down for a minimum 4 months.

That is terrifying. I hope she gets back to normal soon.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Both my girls got Covid back in November. It's been almost a full month since Mackenzie's isolation/quarantine ended. HS basketball practice was allowed to officially start this week and her doctor cleared her. Well, she's been shut down with headaches, dizziness and general inability to concentrate (including during an online test).

I already had little patience with the "...but 99% survival rate!" idiots, but now it's even more clear that this isn't just some typical illness you easily get over. And this comes on the heels of one of Caitlin's former softball teammates getting a Covid-related heart condition that shut her down for a minimum 4 months.

Sorry for the stress you and family must be going through. Have you gone back to Dr. to see if there are any treatment or how to alleviate the symptoms?

[GrantDawg]

That sucks, Ksyrup.

[AlexB]

Thoughts are with you Ksyrup. Unfortunately many people aren’t taking it seriously, despite global evidence that they must simply be choosing to ignore.

Looks like we’ll be going back into lockdown and Christmas plans may well be changed - Boris has an announcement on the BBC this pm, and has advised the WHO the new Covid variant here seems to be spreading more quickly than the previous virus

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Has there been any word on why they cut some vaccine distribution to some states by almost half? Saw Illinois and Nevada on the list unfortunately.

Originally Posted by miami_fan

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/17/polit...ion/index.html

Or...

DeSantis says Florida shipments of vaccines are ‘on hold.’ Pfizer disagrees.

Late Thursday, after this story was initially published, McClatchy DC reported that the federal government is to blame for the confusion. Tiberius, the federal clearinghouse used by the states to monitor vaccine shipments, initially quoted shipment numbers to states using outdated, overestimated figures, an anonymous federal official told McClatchy.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Sorry for the stress you and family must be going through. Have you gone back to Dr. to see if there are any treatment or how to alleviate the symptoms?

Calling the doctor on Monday to determine how to proceed. The trainer said they are starting to look at neurological issues related to Covid, so this might be something along those lines. The bad thing is, she's already had 4 concussions by the time she was 15, so she might be more susceptible to headaches, dizziness, etc., than she otherwise would be. I have to think the two are related.

[rjolley]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Both my girls got Covid back in November. It's been almost a full month since Mackenzie's isolation/quarantine ended. HS basketball practice was allowed to officially start this week and her doctor cleared her. Well, she's been shut down with headaches, dizziness and general inability to concentrate (including during an online test).

I already had little patience with the "...but 99% survival rate!" idiots, but now it's even more clear that this isn't just some typical illness you easily get over. And this comes on the heels of one of Caitlin's former softball teammates getting a Covid-related heart condition that shut her down for a minimum 4 months.

Sorry to hear about that, KSyrup. Hope she's fully past this soon.

This is definitely part of my concern with the kids: the impacts after they've "recovered". While the odds are very low for fatality and fairly low for side effects, I don't see a need to gamble with their health.

It's unfortunate that everyone can't make that call based solely on their health. Instead, they have to balance the ability to work and earn a living with the potential impacts of contracting COVID-19. Not a great position to be in. The guilt of bringing home the disease to a loved one that becomes seriously sick could be crippling at times.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Both my girls got Covid back in November. It's been almost a full month since Mackenzie's isolation/quarantine ended. HS basketball practice was allowed to officially start this week and her doctor cleared her. Well, she's been shut down with headaches, dizziness and general inability to concentrate (including during an online test).

I already had little patience with the "...but 99% survival rate!" idiots, but now it's even more clear that this isn't just some typical illness you easily get over. And this comes on the heels of one of Caitlin's former softball teammates getting a Covid-related heart condition that shut her down for a minimum 4 months.

Damn, that’s terrible. I’m sorry to hear that. And it bothers me as well that people are just looking at survival rate and not realizing that for some survivors there are serious longer term complications. I hope everything works out for the best with your daughter.

[PilotMan]

My son and wife are both suffering from dizziness and headaches as part of their post-covid symptoms. My son also has the ball pain too. In fact, they both say that the post symptoms have been worse than the actual illness. Hope your daughter recovers soon.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Calling the doctor on Monday to determine how to proceed. The trainer said they are starting to look at neurological issues related to Covid, so this might be something along those lines. The bad thing is, she's already had 4 concussions by the time she was 15, so she might be more susceptible to headaches, dizziness, etc., than she otherwise would be. I have to think the two are related.

Hoping for the best CK