Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by molson

The Cubs won the championship. But I don't see anyone complaining if Juice doesn't win the G1, or doesn't become the top guy in the company in the last few years. New Japan is still "allowed" to do a underdog story that ends before the main event. The WWE really isn't.

The Cubs won the championship eventually, but they had a couple of years under Theo where everyone realized the talent was coming but weren't sure when/if they would win it. By 2014 people were talking. 2015 they made the playoffs for the first time. 2016 they won it all. Juice feels like he's somewhere between 2014 and 2015 on that timeline depending on how you feel about the G1.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

THAT is how little faith I have in WWE's ability to book anything remotely properly. THAT is what having Jinder f'n Mihal as a "champion" has done for me.. THAT is what having a barely part-time wrestler as a champion has done for me. THAT is what years of fan abuse at the hands of VKM has done to me. They couldn't properly book a fucking flight except by accident, and that has eliminated my ability to engage with the product outside of specific matches. They have a considerable amount of talent at their disposal, guys who can flat out go ... they've just consistently refused to do enough with them for me to really give a shit at this point, on the odd occasion they get something relatively right I know they'll not only inevitably fuck it up but that they'll do so as quickly as possible.

That's exactly my point. If you've already decided that everything the WWE does is terrible, then it's impossible for them to book an underdog angle, or really any other kind of storyline. If you decide a wrestling promotion or TV show or movie is going to be terrible before something even happens, you have 0% chance of enjoying it. The WWE has a lot of fans like that, and, bizarrely to me, they still watch it. Much more than I do. I think it's become kind of a sport like with game of thrones, it's fun to pick out the things they don't like and it's become the actual reason people watch those shows.

I don't read a lot of criticism of anything New Japan does. Maybe you scrutinize it and pick it apart, but I think most fans are just willing to accept that if they do something, it must be good. Which definitely is going to make the experience more enjoyable, even when they do something that would be subjectively "bad" if done in another promotion.

[molson]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

The Cubs won the championship eventually, but they had a couple of years under Theo where everyone realized the talent was coming but weren't sure when/if they would win it. By 2014 people were talking. 2015 they made the playoffs for the first time. 2016 they won it all. Juice feels like he's somewhere between 2014 and 2015 on that timeline depending on how you feel about the G1.

Is there a really an expectation that Juice will be the top guy in the company soon? What's the timeline for that where the push would be considered a failure if he's not?

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by molson

So by what year does Juice have to be the top guy in the company before the storyline will be considered a failure?

Is the storyline a failure if he doesn't win it all? Also, which title is the fan expectation for him? I think most would put him as a NJPW US champion and no higher. If he ascends to the point that he's the guy who takes the belt off of Omega, say next summer if NJPW does more US shows or even at an ROH event, is that success? Fan expectation has to play into it somewhere, and I don't see Juice being considered on the level of some of the guys that fans have wanted to see pushed better.

[molson]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Is the storyline a failure if he doesn't win it all?

A comparable push in the WWE would considered a failure a that point as soon as the push ends and the upward momentum stops.

I think it's fun to have fresh blood in the midcard, to have newer guys who are moving up but are still far below the top guys. But that type of push is always criticized in the WWE if it stops in the midcard, if the guy don't end up winning the title, they didn't "pull the trigger", etc.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by molson

That's exactly my point. If you've already decided that everything the WWE does is terrible, then it's impossible for them to book an underdog angle, or really any other kind of storyline. If you decide a wrestling promotion or TV show or movie is going to be terrible before something even happens, you have 0% chance of enjoying it. The WWE has a lot of fans like that, and, bizarrely to me, they still watch it. Much more than I do.

I don't read a lot of criticism of anything New Japan does. Maybe you scrutinize it and pick it apart, but I think most fans are just willing to accept that if they do something, it must be good. Which definitely is going to make the experience more enjoyable, even when they do something that would be subjectively "bad" if done in another promotion.

If you shit on your fanbase for 15 years, to the point that it's smaller than it's been in the Wrestlemania era, then you get less benefit of the doubt.

If you consistently push guys based on talent and reception, along with delivering on storylines in a satisfying way for 15 years, and bypass your competition to become the top Japanese promotion while building the Wrestle Kingdom era, you get more benefit of the doubt.

People don't want to give up on a company like WWE because of what they've been in the past and the fact that they're signing legit top talent again, even though they've shown that they just won't give a good payoff nearly every time and often push people despite the overwhelming negative reaction of the dwindling fanbase.

People will give NJPW a lot of rope because they've shown, again and again, that they'll adapt and adjust over time but also that they'll plan things out long term and come to a satisfying, logical conclusion even when pushing guys that aren't necessarily the darlings of the fanbase.

It's really that simple.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by molson

A comparable push in the WWE would considered a failure a that point as soon as the push ends and the upward momentum stops.

I think it's fun to have fresh blood in the midcard, to have newer guys who are moving up but are still far below the top guys. But that type of push is always criticized in the WWE if it stops in the midcard, if the guy don't end up winning the title, they didn't "pull the trigger", etc.

Bullshit. Juice isn't the equivalent of a Sami Zayn or even Dolph Ziggler a few years back. There was no clamoring for him to be the one pushed. You're comparing someone that nobody expected to be pushed, and really nobody was calling for, to guys who fans have made it clear they believe have talent and should be pushed. Apples and oranges.

[molson]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Bullshit. Juice isn't the equivalent of a Sami Zayn or even Dolph Ziggler a few years back. There was no clamoring for him to be the one pushed. You're comparing someone that nobody expected to be pushed, and really nobody was calling for, to guys who fans have made it clear they believe have talent and should be pushed. Apples and oranges.

Apples and oranges is comparing Juice Robinson to the Cubs or other teams or wrestlers who have won the championship. Unless you're willing to acknowledge that it's a failed push if Robinson doesn't win the G1 or be the top guy in the company in the next year.

And wait, are are you saying that nobody was clamoring for the WWE to push Zayn or Ziggler? Of course people were. But then any interest by the company shown in those guys was immediately seen as pointless if the push didn't end in a world title run, with those guys on top of the company. Or are you saying that nobody was clamoring for Juice Robinson to be pushed and that's what made it a true underdog push? That's another thing the WWE wouldn't be allowed to do without criticism - pushing a guy too fast, before the fans want it.

Edit: If you look up and down the WWE roster, there's really only a handful of guys that aren't considered misused or buried. But it's literally impossible to push 90% of the roster more relative to the rest of the card. But when New Japan pushes a younger guy up to a level where they win 35-40% of his matches, that's considered amazing booking. And I like those kinds of pushes and like that one, but it's just not something that's realistically on the table for the WWE among the segment of fans who have already decided everything is terrible, that everyone except the current main eventers should be pushed more, and that any little push of a guy into the midcard is pointless because they'll never "pull the trigger" on the guy and push him to the main event.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Bullshit. Juice isn't the equivalent of a Sami Zayn or even Dolph Ziggler a few years back. There was no clamoring for him to be the one pushed. You're comparing someone that nobody expected to be pushed, and really nobody was calling for, to guys who fans have made it clear they believe have talent and should be pushed. Apples and oranges.

I'm not sure how much actual talent fans believe Juice has ... but at least the ones in Japan sure do seem to like him.

(Keen observers may have noticed that I haven't raved about the guy, I've mostly discussed what's being played out with him & the surprise that we're even having discussions that involve him)

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You're obviously not sitting here in the batcave with me & the kid. We've pretty much picked apart -- pro AND con -- every outcome thus far. We parse not only wins & losses but also who gets/takes the pin in the tag matches, just to see if there's anything meaningful there. We've also made several TEW references ("so-and-so doesn't click with so-and-so" being the primary) on occasion, and criticized the seeming lack of anything being called in ring even when the situation probably called for it. But at this point that's how we watch pretty much any wrestling, so long as the quality in-ring isn't so low that it makes the booking a secondary consideration.

G1, however, is also an animal that doesn't exist in the WWE universe, though they could do a helluva entertaining version of it if they chose to.
(Q: Does the format exist in any other promotion? I'm thinking no but maybe I'm missing something somewhere)

It requires a completely different mindset to viewing I think, watching it with the expectation of 1-2 losses for everybody regardless of who they are. It's more like ... baseball in that regard, at least taking the tournament in isolation.

--------

On a sidenote of sorts, just to avoid a dola here, I thought it was pretty telling tonight when the kid got home from a day out & about & immediately started the on-demand of the latest G1 day without bothering to turn on Smackdown ... despite the fact that he knew who the main event was. Probably even more telling that I didn't have the foggiest idea what the main was, nor did I give the show a second thought until he mentioned the outcome & I watched the clip of the Cena bump. And I'd have expected that to be a good match ... problem is that, at this point, I don't really care about it except in isolation.

THAT is how little faith I have in WWE's ability to book anything remotely properly. THAT is what having Jinder f'n Mihal as a "champion" has done for me.. THAT is what having a barely part-time wrestler as a champion has done for me. THAT is what years of fan abuse at the hands of VKM has done to me. They couldn't properly book a fucking flight except by accident, and that has eliminated my ability to engage with the product outside of specific matches. They have a considerable amount of talent at their disposal, guys who can flat out go ... they've just consistently refused to do enough with them for me to really give a shit at this point, on the odd occasion they get something relatively right I know they'll not only inevitably fuck it up but that they'll do so as quickly as possible.

So much to cover on the opposite side of juice but I'll just add it with this post. Juice had already main evented a PPV in April wrestling Naito for the IC belt. So it's not like they haven't been prepping him for bigger things like the G1. I don't buy this out of no where run that people see. He's been there for 2 years already and headlined a PPV after a year and a half. I just think people are starting to notice Juice more because of the G1 but it's been slowly building for a little while so it's not shocking that he is there.

-----

G1 is unique but at the same time it's almost like it's end result is getting a money in the bank briefcase for winning the Royal Rumble, isn't it? The winner basically gets a title shot at WrestleKingdom. As for the format, didn't TNA try something like this with Bischoff before and it failed horribly. It was used in the bound for glory PPVs I think. Maybe I dreamed that part up but I swear they had a point system to determine rankings. It would be nice for the WWE to attempt it with the winner getting a shot at Summer Slam.

-----

As for the last part, I'm right there with you. It even worse when you live on the west coast. I know all the results of every match before either show is shown out here and I end up having zero desire to watch what I see listed as matches. It's gotten to the point with WWE that I'd rather have a house show locally than RAW or Smackdown.

Smackdown is coming to Vegas Sept 12th and I have zero desire to watch 27 mins of wrestling over two hours. Orton, Styles, Jinder, Naka, Carmella, Zayn, KO, Corbin, Lynch are the advertised wrestlers. They are also having the Mae Young Classic Finals that night. I'm not paying 60 bucks to see that much less bringing the kid and the wife. (Also this seems like a guaranteed cash in @ SS by Carmella since there are only 2 women advertised)

On the 22nd/23rd just a mere 10 days later ROH has Death Before Dishonor PPV here and a show the next night for less that that Smackdown as I get 6+ hours of action. It's not question which shows I'll end up going to. I want more action. People shit on crowds at these shows for not reacting well but when you have to sit through a commercial break, then watch a skit/interview, then go to a commercial break again... how the hell are you suppose to be excited.

But this goes for any show for me now as I can see the highlights of a WWE/LU/NJPW/ROH online anytime so I don't really feel the need to watch any of these shows as of late.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm not sure how much actual talent fans believe Juice has ... but at least the ones in Japan sure do seem to like him.

(Keen observers may have noticed that I haven't raved about the guy, I've mostly discussed what's being played out with him & the surprise that we're even having discussions that involve him)

Honest question about him. He seems to get a good reaction from female fans there. Is Juice just their version of Roman a few years back?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Honest question about him. He seems to get a good reaction from female fans there. Is Juice just their version of Roman a few years back?

It's hard for me to say what the male/female reaction split is honestly. You do hear a little higher pitch* to his cheers but it doesn't seem to be at the Tanahashi level as far as I've noticed. I'll have to pay more attention to that during the upcoming shows & see what I pick up.

*in my house that's called "the Poodle effect", named for the sounds of pack of adolescent girls that were regulars back in our days of going to NWA-Anarchy

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

So much to cover on the opposite side of juice but I'll just add it with this post. Juice had already main evented a PPV in April wrestling Naito for the IC belt. So it's not like they haven't been prepping him for bigger things like the G1. I don't buy this out of no where run that people see. He's been there for 2 years already and headlined a PPV after a year and a half. I just think people are starting to notice Juice more because of the G1 but it's been slowly building for a little while so it's not shocking that he is there.

Oh it's definitely been a thing in the works, and it's certainly fair to say that it's a point of discussion to this degree because of G1.

As for the format, didn't TNA try something like this with Bischoff before and it failed horribly.

Ah yes, the TNA World X Cup ('04, '06, '08), I'd forgotten about that.

What you're talking about though would be the Bound For Glory series that ran from 2011-2013. At least once in the three years of it the participants actually worked the same number of matches, the first year was a giant clusterfuck, and they used some really freaky scoring rules.

Unlike the X Cup which I legit just forgot about, the BFG series was more something I actively tried to forget about.

[JonInMiddleGA]

fwiw, I haven't seen anyone try to defend the booking of Yano/Elgin.

It's been condemned as stupid a.f. in everything I've read today/tonight.
Which is a fair assesment.

It was not a good day for the intellectual reputation of NJPW refs. (Suzuki vs Kojima made them look 80s classic dumb as well)

[Mota]

Originally Posted by molson

Edit: If you look up and down the WWE roster, there's really only a handful of guys that aren't considered misused or buried. But it's literally impossible to push 90% of the roster more relative to the rest of the card. But when New Japan pushes a younger guy up to a level where they win 35-40% of his matches, that's considered amazing booking. And I like those kinds of pushes and like that one, but it's just not something that's realistically on the table for the WWE among the segment of fans who have already decided everything is terrible, that everyone except the current main eventers should be pushed more, and that any little push of a guy into the midcard is pointless because they'll never "pull the trigger" on the guy and push him to the main event.

There's definitely a difference. You can be in the mid-card in NJPW, or really most other federations, and still be "pushed". The Intercontinental is a valuable title. The Never Openweight Title actually can mean something. Guys can just feud over pride. Look at Tomohiro Ishii, he hasn't held many titles at all, yet the guy is over as all heck. There's a lot of guys that don't win a ton of matches, but they put on great matches and are given their moments of spotlight.

In the WWE, if you're not in that top 10%, you are basically considered trash. That's why people feel that their favorites need to win 90% of the matches. Because as soon as you drop from that, you are disposable cannon fodder to the big giants, their favorites. There's even a podcast named after it ... "creative has nothing for you". That is a true death sentence in the WWE, and creative has so little, for so many of that roster.

My favorite thing about the attitude era wasn't the swearing. It wasn't the nudity. It was the fact that about 80% of the roster seemed to have their own storylines going, and that almost everybody was "over". They are very, very far from that type of feeling today. Just go to the WWE website and look at the roster. I just did, and was astounded at how many of the wrestlers mean absolutely nothing.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mota

In the WWE, if you're not in that top 10%, you are basically considered trash. That's why people feel that their favorites need to win 90% of the matches. Because as soon as you drop from that, you are disposable cannon fodder to the big giants, their favorites. There's even a podcast named after it ... "creative has nothing for you". That is a true death sentence in the WWE, and creative has so little, for so many of that roster.

My favorite thing about the attitude era wasn't the swearing. It wasn't the nudity. It was the fact that about 80% of the roster seemed to have their own storylines going, and that almost everybody was "over". They are very, very far from that type of feeling today. Just go to the WWE website and look at the roster. I just did, and was astounded at how many of the wrestlers mean absolutely nothing.

Maybe there's a chicken and the egg element there - that if someone you liked wasn't pushed in the past or something, you're not willing to be invested in midcard or lower fued pushes involving guys you like now. But I think once someone reaches that level of cynicism it's impossible to ever enjoy a wrestling promotion (or TV show, if they're reached that point with Game of Thrones or whatever).

Once you've already decided something is bad before it happens, then there's really no point. That's when a lower card guy getting a couple of wins in New Japan is considered brilliant but a lower card guy in the WWE either getting a storyline, or some kind of minor push is still shit because you're sure it's "not going anywhere."

It makes it much tougher to build on any momentum than it does when people are willing to give a company the benefit of the doubt and generally find reasons to identify things they like, like with New Japan, or the indies, where fans generally go to shows excited to have a a good time, not looking for things to complain about, or having pre-determined not only that everything is going to suck, but that if anything is good, it still sucks because it's not going to go where they want it to go in the end. There is just so much cynical scrutiny of every match outcome to the extent that the complaints often contradict each other. (screwjob finishes are always bad, but clean losses bury people.) A lot of pro wrestling fans will get an idea of how everything is supposed to go - who has to win every match, who has to feud with who, and if everything doesn't go exactly according to that plan, it's garbage, but if it does, it's too predictable.

And I think Game of Thrones has reached the same point with a lot of posters here - which is funny because angry WWE fans often say that pro wrestling should just "book their shows like Game of Thrones")..though I wonder what GOT, or New Japan for that matter, would look like if they produced 25 hours of content a month.

And I don't think the attitude era has aged very well at all. They did a million things to excess that people wouldn't tolerate in the WWE today - 1 minute matches, constant run-ins, storylines dropped with no explanation, constant heel/face turns, certain talented guys floundering in the midcard or lower, long drawn out talking segments that were god awful in retrospect, lots of really terrible matches even when they were given time, etc. It certainly was a hot product though, I think because it was very different than what they were putting out just a year or two earlier, and they brought in a ton of casual fans who were vaguely familiar with the WWF from their childhood but were blown away how different wrestling was then. But the level of wrestling and roster depth is on a different stratosphere today. The only thing that killed my interest was overexposure and lack of a fluid roster. It's just too much content and the roster doesn't change much. I enjoy it a lot more when I watch maybe 2-3 big shows a year and then check out anything else I hear about on youtube.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

... though I wonder what GOT, or New Japan for that matter, would look like if they produced 25 hours of content a month.

We're past that for G1 alone. So far, there have been a small number of bookings I disagreed with (which is acceptable given the number of them & the weight associated with each) and one that I thought was just piss poor (Yano wins by DQ, which was just shitshow stupid)

I don't have to agree with every choice, I do demand to find some rationale worth the name behind them most of the time.

[JonInMiddleGA]

All ... is ... EVIL !

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm not exactly sure WHY Tama Tonga squealed like a 3 y/o girl when Tenzan was getting offense on him in the corner ... but it was quite amusing.

edit to add: My insightful child made a pretty good point afterwards "We're still talking about it several minutes later ... that's good work no matter why he did it"

[JonInMiddleGA]

Man I love little stuff in matches

Final night of group stage matches, Kojima spikes Evil on his head on the apron.

They show a replay, Kojima executed that about as safely as possible. Kept Evil ... how to describe this? ... he kept him outside his own waist & kept himself snug against the edge of the apron. That positioning ensures that Evil can't hit the edge/corner of the apron.

It's probably (I guess?) how you teach doing that safely but it just seemed so precisely done on the replay. A lot of stuff is of course or else these guys would be hospitalized frequently, it was just cool to be able to see how it was done on the replay.

[RainMaker]

I just got caught up. Did not see that Juice victory coming. His reaction was great. Can't remember the last time WWE had an upset like that that actually mattered for a wrestler.

That Evil-Okada match was amazing. You could sense the crowd wanted the upset to happen and they kept teasing it all match with the near-falls.

I wish I had gotten into this sooner. It's so good and I barely know much about the wrestlers. They are so good at telling stories in each match. You just feel like all of it matters.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I wish I had gotten into this sooner. It's so good and I barely know much about the wrestlers. They are so good at telling stories in each match. You just feel like all of it matters.

It's a grind, I gotta tell ya. Best I can figure, as I sit here waiting to catch the finals live, in the last 27 days (since 7/17 start of A Block), we've watched close to 60 hours of tournament action (counting tag matches). We've watched over 35 of that with only Japanese commentary.

The storytelling ability was really showcased for me by watching so much of it that way. You didn't need the commentary or extended promos to know what was happening, if you had some background going in then the in-ring story telling was more than enough.

Juice had a story. Yuji had a story. Kojima even kind of developed a little story toward the end. You had the Tama / Kenny / BC tension story. You had a more heelish Tanahashi. We had the unforgivable heel actions of Fale. And that's not even the final four.

We saw several young lions getting closer to graduation. We saw Chase Owens look decent enough & actually be kind of useful. We saw Desperado become the busiest (and most useful) ringside second in the business.

They used the tag matches so well most nights, I'm going to kind of miss having them be a more important part of the shows after this.

The grind became real as a viewer, you could almost forgive some of the off-nights in the middle of the group stage, the style & intensity they work is one hell of a strain and it shows on them.

By a lot of accounts, this is actually one of the weaker G1 tournaments overall in several years,at least in terms of the number of matches that got in the high 4* or 5* range. That's a pretty scary concept to think about. I felt like 3.50* to 4.25* was where the peaks mostly landed ... but that ain't exactly chopped liver.

[JonInMiddleGA]

surprise appearance at G1 intermission

Spoiler

An emotional Shibata appears, gathers himself and says ... "I'm alive ... that's all"

It felt like a comeback announcement more than the words might suggest, especially as his music hit just seconds after they revealed the Wrestle Kingdom logo for January"

[JonInMiddleGA]

Helluva G1 final.

Not sure exactly how to grade that match since it was spectacular at times but I'm almost hesitant to reward them for at least two moments where we thought someone might be legit hurt. (one with a bad spot, one with a spot that I think outsmarted the fans)

Helluva G1 final regardless. Best wrestling in the world, and an experience that nothing else really duplicates for a fan of what happens inside the ring.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And for the love of God, no more spots involving those fucked up Japanese tables. They just don't work for wrestling.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And for the love of God, no more spots involving those fucked up Japanese tables. They just don't work for wrestling.

And you wonder why the WWE doesn't have a table cloth on their tables. Naito did a good job saving Omega but I don't see any reason to perform pile drivers on a table. I know in the grand scheme of moves they do involving the neck it's not that bad normally but that was too close to become a Stone Cold situation.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And for the love of God, no more spots involving those fucked up Japanese tables. They just don't work for wrestling.

I don't understand how Japan can be state-of-the-art in just about everything yet still linger in the 1850's in terms of buffet tables.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Helluva G1 final.

Not sure exactly how to grade that match since it was spectacular at times but I'm almost hesitant to reward them for at least two moments where we thought someone might be legit hurt. (one with a bad spot, one with a spot that I think outsmarted the fans)

Helluva G1 final regardless. Best wrestling in the world, and an experience that nothing else really duplicates for a fan of what happens inside the ring.

My only gripe with New Japan is I feel nervous for the guys because of how gruesome some of the bumps are. Maybe I'm just getting soft as I get older but I don't want to see some guy break his neck in a match.

Felt the same with Shane jumping off the cage at Wrestlemania a couple years ago. Cool spot and all but I don't want the guy to die.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

And you wonder why the WWE doesn't have a table cloth on their tables. Naito did a good job saving Omega but I don't see any reason to perform pile drivers on a table. I know in the grand scheme of moves they do involving the neck it's not that bad normally but that was too close to become a Stone Cold situation.

That they hardly ever use tables is, of course, why they went to that spot last night. Problem is, that very U.S. spot is commonplace in part because we have tables & actual announce desks that work fairly well with it most of the time.

In Japan, not so much so. Either import tables or stop doing those spots.

[miami_fan]

WWE Hall of Famer Ric Flair hospitalized in ICU

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

And you wonder why the WWE doesn't have a table cloth on their tables. Naito did a good job saving Omega but I don't see any reason to perform pile drivers on a table. I know in the grand scheme of moves they do involving the neck it's not that bad normally but that was too close to become a Stone Cold situation.

By all accounts, the table spot went exactly as planned. Watch Naito move the guardrail. They knew they were going down there, and amazingly, Omegas head hits nothing.

[Suicane75]

That was the first G1 where I watched every show, and as Jon says, it was mentally exhausting, but in a good way. The lull in the middle was to be expected but the first 7 or so shows and the final 5 nights or so were just great. Jon already mentioned all the awesome stuff, and I some people hate the shtick, but I loved Yanos stuff. I don't mind the comedy as long as it's limited, but yeah, the Elgin match could have been layed out better but I think the Sanada finish more than made up for it. Daryl's alive!

As for the Juice stuff, he's an upper midcard heavyweight, probably be positioned as a top guy for when they tour the US next year and I think he's earned it. His injury storyline throughout the tournament was great.

One thing I feel like they need to do is revamp the tag division. Bringing in KES is a good start but it'd be nice if they had more than 2/3 teams at a time.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

That was the first G1 where I watched every show, and as Jon says, it was mentally exhausting, but in a good way. The lull in the middle was to be expected but the first 7 or so shows and the final 5 nights or so were just great. Jon already mentioned all the awesome stuff, and I some people hate the shtick, but I loved Yanos stuff. I don't mind the comedy as long as it's limited, but yeah, the Elgin match could have been layed out better but I think the Sanada finish more than made up for it. Daryl's alive!

As for the Juice stuff, he's an upper midcard heavyweight, probably be positioned as a top guy for when they tour the US next year and I think he's earned it. His injury storyline throughout the tournament was great.

One thing I feel like they need to do is revamp the tag division. Bringing in KES is a good start but it'd be nice if they had more than 2/3 teams at a time.

I don't see how you guys find time to watch it all. I think they are treating Juice as their hot diva and he's playing into it. I mean all his sons are going to be half Japanese now. Are they sending the North Americans back for an ROH fall tour? I know Omega is scheduled for Chicago but haven't checked to even see who is coming to Vegas next month yet.

NJPW seems to be finding their niche with merchandising through the Bucks. Are we to assume they dropped the junior belts to move up to the IGPW tag team division?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Daryl's alive!

This. A whole buncha times THIS. That battles Shibata's appearance as the most emotional moment of the whole affair for me, and was pure joy.

One thing about Juice's future, I haven't seen it but my kid mentioned that last night it looks like he's headed for a spell in CMLL next.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

I don't see how you guys find time to watch it all.

That's pretty simple (though not easy): It was what my son turned on every following night (or a few live mornings) without fail. Would I have fared as well with keeping up if he hadn't been home from school during the tournament? Probably not.

[CrescentMoonie]

WWE Hall of Famer Ric Flair out of surgery, resting

Looks like Flair is okay after surgery. Apparently he was in a medically induced coma beforehand.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

That's pretty simple (though not easy): It was what my son turned on every following night (or a few live mornings) without fail. Would I have fared as well with keeping up if he hadn't been home from school during the tournament? Probably not.

I was a show or two behind most of the month, and I skipped a lot of the tag matches to focus mainly on the G1, but yeah, it was hard.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I was a show or two behind most of the month, and I skipped a lot of the tag matches to focus mainly on the G1, but yeah, it was hard.

The tag matches were surprisingly useful, they do a good job of making most of them have some connection to upcoming tournament matches & such

On the notion of "how to get through G1" it's probably also fair to note that I doubt he & I combined to watch less than 5 hours of any other long-form programming the entire month. We're not "TV people", either of us, so watching this only replaced watching gaming or wrestling related YT content or actual gaming.

[General Mike]

Baron Corbin, LOL

[RainMaker]

It was actually a nice way of building heat for a match but should have been done more than 5 days before Summerslam.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by General Mike

Baron Corbin, LOL

My son's first question: "Who did he piss off?"

[RainMaker]

I thought I read that Vince was upset about him not working out more to tighten up his body and that's why he's been getting buried and they seem to have someone making fun of him for his look each week.

[General Mike]

6 hours of wrestling? What's wrong with me?

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by General Mike

6 hours of wrestling? What's wrong with me?

I thought the pre-show matches were much better than the main show until Bray-Balor. If that was on NJPW people would rave about it but it will get 3 stars for being WWE. It might be the best Bray has looked in match IMO.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

I thought the pre-show matches were much better than the main show until Bray-Balor. If that was on NJPW people would rave about it but it will get 3 stars for being WWE. It might be the best Bray has looked in match IMO.

3 stars for a match that Bray Wyatt is in would be a high point for him. He has produced mediocre matches since he started.

We really see most of the 4 or 5 star matches in NJPW from maybe 5 guys? Wyatt would be nowhere near the level of these guys.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

I thought the pre-show matches were much better than the main show until Bray-Balor. If that was on NJPW people would rave about it but it will get 3 stars for being WWE. It might be the best Bray has looked in match IMO.

My kid gave it 3.25 or 3.5 ... same as we gave a lot of matches during G1.

The gap between 3 & 4 is a rather large one.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

I thought the pre-show matches were much better than the main show until Bray-Balor. If that was on NJPW people would rave about it but it will get 3 stars for being WWE. It might be the best Bray has looked in match IMO.

Here's the difference. In NJPW it most likely would have meant something. And the build to it wouldn't be Bray doing the same angle with the 10th guy in 3 years where you know the outcome simply doesn't matter because his next feud will essentially be about the same nondescript thing. And Balor wouldn't have come into it off a feud where he lost to The Drifter. And it wouldn't involve some mind numbingly insulting "some sort of acidic liquid". And they wouldn't beat you over the head with the fact that The Demon was coming back because they don't feel the need to treat their audience like mental deficients. And even though it would probably still be in the middle of a 4 hour show, it would feel more like a 2 hour show instead of a 10 hour show, and my buddies wouldn't have to wake me up for it because after the awesome pre show matches, the show ground to a complete halt.

But that's just my opinion.

I can't overstate this enough, I'm growing to HATE the big WWE shows because they are just too fucking bloated. I looked at my clock around 9pm and I thought it must have stopped because I felt like I had been watching wrestling for 5 hours already.

[Suicane75]

Tag title matches and main event were great though.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Here's the difference. In NJPW it most likely would have meant something. And the build to it wouldn't be Bray doing the same angle with the 10th guy in 3 years where you know the outcome simply doesn't matter because his next feud will essentially be about the same nondescript thing. And Balor wouldn't have come into it off a feud where he lost to The Drifter. And it wouldn't involve some mind numbingly insulting "some sort of acidic liquid". And they wouldn't beat you over the head with the fact that The Demon was coming back because they don't feel the need to treat their audience like mental deficients. And even though it would probably still be in the middle of a 4 hour show, it would feel more like a 2 hour show instead of a 10 hour show, and my buddies wouldn't have to wake me up for it because after the awesome pre show matches, the show ground to a complete halt.

But that's just my opinion.

I can't overstate this enough, I'm growing to HATE the big WWE shows because they are just too fucking bloated. I looked at my clock around 9pm and I thought it must have stopped because I felt like I had been watching wrestling for 5 hours already.

But matches mean something because NJPW takes breaks. Wasn't it a 3 week break before the G1? The WWE has 5 hours to fill every week with just RAW/SD. The WWE has to give women a chance which NJPW doesn't. They don't have as many PPVs in their business model while the WWE uses it for subscriptions. I'm not sure how you can compare the two when their product/business model couldn't be more different.

Balor is boring if he isn't the demon. It's just a fact. He wrestles differently with the paint on.

Everything that people complain about happens in NJPW.

1) Brock won the title so goodbye to seeing it defended. Okada has defended the title 7 times over the past 426 days. When he had the belt before he defended it 3 times over 280 days. Styles defended it once over 144 days.

2) WWE can't tell a story. What stories do NJPW write? A normal build up to a PPV for them is 4/6/8/10 tag team matches every night for every mathc. Their TV shows are taped episodes like NXT. Those shows are better than the WWE but they should be. It's easy to keep people away from each other when you have 1 hour a week to fill, especially when you can go 3 weeks with no wrestling like NJPW. If WWE did this then people would complain about TV ratings because they had to keep someone like Okada and Omega off TV for that long. If the WWE cared less about their stock price and ratings, then they could do this.

NJPW (IMO) has a mindnumbing amount of 8 man tag matches which is filler. Can't stand watching them and usually skip through them.

3) WWE makes tag team matches that make no sense. Um, that's all NJPW does. They have entire shows that are tag matches. If you had an entire card of tag matches, your draw would be 750 people like it is in Japan for those "road to..." events.

I just don't think there is a winning formula. Those who claim Takeover was better are missing the obvious. They practice for a month to put on one match while the WWE is having them all over the country night after night. Of course a singles match from NJPW or NXT is going to seem more special when it only happens once in a blue moon.

[Suicane75]

Actually the NJPW tag matches almost always are used as build to a bigger singles or blow off. Of course WWE's problem is over saturation, but that doesn't mean I have to enjoy it because they have an excuse. This is where they want to be, fine by me.