Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[miami_fan]

As a casual wrestling observer I must say, my god Vince looks like he aged 30 years since the last time I saw him.

[CrescentMoonie]

Otto Wanz passed away.

Otto Wanz Passes Away at 74 | 411MANIA

[molson]

RIP Bobby Heenan.

He's been in very bad health for a long time.

And before that, his neck issues cut short his managerial career. It's kind of crazy when I watch random youtube clips and see how active and sneaky athletic he was even into the late 80s/early 90s. He'd always take any available opportunity to fly over the top rope to the floor or otherwise take a beating from a babyface, or even fill in as a wrestler at house shows up until about 1991, usually getting squashed in brutal fashion. It would have been fun to see him still relevant into the attitude era, he could have still been a player as a personality/manager in his 50s, but his body was shot, and I don't think he ever really fit in as an announcer in WCW. But he was pretty great at building up Hogan's heel challengers in the 80s, and cornering Nick Bockwinkle before that.

[General Mike]

Heenan was one of the best ever. Didn't get to see his peek live though. By the time I was a fan, he was already in the announce booth, and shortly after in WCW where I think he didn't have the passion for anymore.

[JonInMiddleGA]

One of the quickest wits, and best deliveries, of any personality ever.

RIP Brain.

[CrescentMoonie]

Heenan's ability to make anything work was amazing. There just aren't many people who can even approach what he could do. He milked every boo, and every penny, out of every storyline he was given. For those I got to enjoy in their prime, Heenan is at the top of the list.

[SirFozzie]

Right now, Heenan is going through all his pockets at the Heavenly Gate with Saint Peter...



"I know my invite's in here.. where is it, it must have been that no good Piper.. always stealing my stuff did I ever tell you that.."



and from inside the gates, Gorilla Monsoon's voice calls out.



"Heenan, Will you STOP already? I told them you didn't need an invite"

[CrescentMoonie]

Hope to see one of those classic tributes that only WWE can do tonight.

[RainMaker]

Heenan was great but I've grown to appreciate him more looking back at old events on the WWE network. Lot of the jokes he made that went over a kids head are hilarious as an adult. The guy could get anyone over and was the best manager we've ever seen.

I saw someone online mention that if you wanted to see Heenan at his best, listen to the 1992 Royal Rumble. His job was to get Flair over to a crowd that was just being introduced to him and he did an amazing job of it.

[CrescentMoonie]

I could watch an hour of Hennan and Bockwinkle interviews. Just absolute perfection.

I liked Cornette better as a kid, but I've had that same growing enjoyment of Heenan as an adult that makes me think of him as the best ever.

[Neuqua]

Bobby Heenan's Reaction To Extremely Ugly Woman - YouTube

[stevew]

Not even a real big fan of wrestling but this guy was always freaking awesome and it's sad that he's gone now

[murrayyyyy]

I'm not even sure why I expected any less. A 9 min war as the main event between monsters?

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

I'm not even sure why I expected any less. A 9 min war as the main event between monsters?

Vince is back in full on refusal to listen to the fans mode and is determined to go with Reigns vs Lesnar again at Wrestlemania.

[CrescentMoonie]

I've flipped over to Raw 4 times tonight, 2 of them featured a Roman Reigns entrance. This is why their TV ratings are at the lowest point in decades and continuing to plummet.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Vince is back in full on refusal to listen to the fans mode and is determined to go with Reigns vs Lesnar again at Wrestlemania.

The fans will want Lesnar, Reigns will win, and WM will go off the air yet again with boos.

[Mota]

So I went to the Smash Wrestling 100th show last weekend, and it was pretty great.

The gimmick for the show was that no talent or matches were announced. None. And despite that, presales for the show were 25% better than their previous high. It was one of the smaller venues since their new venue was booked, but the place was packed, standing room only.

In the main event, it was Jay White against Petey Williams. White has appeared for Smash a few times so it wasn't a huge surprise, but I don't think Williams has been active in wrestling for years. He ended up taking the win, and is challenging Tyson Dux for the title next month. You can't complain about seeing the Canadian Destroyer, one of the greatest finishers in the game!

Overall, the show was great. Lots of people that haven't been in Smash for a while coming back. Tarik came back as his old character Alex Vega, and we got to see one of the mainstay women wrestlers Allie (Cherry Bomb), who hasn't wrestled in Toronto in several shows.

There was no booing that wasn't supposed to happen. People left happy. And the bookers gave the crowd what they wanted to see. Go figure.

[CrescentMoonie]

Petey Williams started working for TNA again last month.

[Flasch186]

Took my son to an NXT show and I was SHOCKED at how good it was:

We saw Hideo Itomi versus some Australian guy (Buddy Murphy) and it was great
Then we saw Kairi (Pirate) versus Mandy Rose and Mandy Rose was great in a loss but Kairi is apparently getting the push which seems silly since the Pirate thing was so stupid.
Then we saw a squash from apparently some next big thing (according to the marks around me) Lars Sullivan and then the finale was apparently the best match those marks have seen in years in Jacksonville (in a tiny Armory no less) = Adam Cole, Bobby Fish and Kyle O'Reilly versus Kassius Ohno, Johnny "wrestling" Gargano and Roderick Strong. It actually was a great match with Ohno being the weakest and O'reilly and strong being terrific. Really they were all excellent minus Ohno but it was kinda shocking to hear the crowd around me react saying that they couldnt believe who was there.

Other notable appearances Bianca Belair (meh), Ruby Riot (meh), No Way Jose (meh) , Street Prophets had a lot of people buzzing but I thought that it was dumb,

[CrescentMoonie]

Very interesting read. Billy Corgan says he has a 20 year plan outlined for the NWA. And here's a tidbit on why he's been mum until now.

The NWA’s former owner, Bruce Tharpe, leased out affiliated licenses that expired on Oct. 1. The promotion, and its vision, is now entirely in Corgan’s control.

https://www.si.com/wrestling/2017/10...es-rebrand-nwa

[General Mike]

20 year plan is great. None of it matters if he can't get a TV deal that pays money.

[CrescentMoonie]

Two weeks in a row closing with heel Enzo getting his ass handed to him. There was the backstage Shield tease with all three guys in the same room, but how many were still watching?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Took my son to an NXT show and I was SHOCKED at how good it was:

We saw Hideo Itomi versus some Australian guy (Buddy Murphy) and it was great
Then we saw Kairi (Pirate) versus Mandy Rose and Mandy Rose was great in a loss but Kairi is apparently getting the push which seems silly since the Pirate thing was so stupid.
Then we saw a squash from apparently some next big thing (according to the marks around me) Lars Sullivan and then the finale was apparently the best match those marks have seen in years in Jacksonville (in a tiny Armory no less) = Adam Cole, Bobby Fish and Kyle O'Reilly versus Kassius Ohno, Johnny "wrestling" Gargano and Roderick Strong. It actually was a great match with Ohno being the weakest and O'reilly and strong being terrific. Really they were all excellent minus Ohno but it was kinda shocking to hear the crowd around me react saying that they couldnt believe who was there.

Other notable appearances Bianca Belair (meh), Ruby Riot (meh), No Way Jose (meh) , Street Prophets had a lot of people buzzing but I thought that it was dumb,

I don't understand the love for Ohno. Heard he was some great indy talent and his NXT stuff has been pretty "meh". Think he's mediocre in the ring and his gimmick is about as dull as it gets.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't understand the love for Ohno. Heard he was some great indy talent and his NXT stuff has been pretty "meh". Think he's mediocre in the ring and his gimmick is about as dull as it gets.

Claudio/Hero were phenomenal as a tag team. WWE got it right breaking them up at the time and Hero/Ohno isn't anything special in the ring.

[murrayyyyy]

Lawler posted that Lance Russell passed away this morning. One of the keys of the Memphis Wrestling scene and the voice of my Saturday mornings.

Wrestling commentator Lance Russell dies | WREG.com

[CrescentMoonie]

Russell is right there with Solie and Ross for me. Just an iconic voice that evokes a certain time and place as well as any.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by General Mike

20 year plan is great. None of it matters if he can't get a TV deal that pays money.

He's about one notch ahead of fantasy booking at this point. I mean, I've got a 20 year plan for a couple of TEW campaigns I've run too buuuuuuuuut ...

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

He's about one notch ahead of fantasy booking at this point. I mean, I've got a 20 year plan for a couple of TEW campaigns I've run too buuuuuuuuut ...

But Corgan has experience running a company, has people to work with that he trusts, has connections in TV, and has a champion and belt to build off of. It's not ideal, but his champ starts showing up on TV this weekend. I definitely like that his goal is to be more ROH/NJPW in scope than a WWE competitor.

[molson]

Do we know if he wants to run an actual promotion eventually? All he has is licensing property that isn't worth much to any actual promotions. If all he wants is to make deals with existing promotions, calling it the Corgan Wrestling Alliance would work just as well.

Edit: I've heard interviews with him, he's really passionate about this, and wrestling was partially built on the backs of rich weirdos, but I wish he wasn't obsessed with tired old brands. Why can't he do his own thing?

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by molson

Do we know if he wants to run an actual promotion eventually? All he has is licensing property that isn't worth much to any actual promotions. If all he wants is to make deals with existing promotions, calling it the Corgan Wrestling Alliance would work just as well.

Edit: I've heard interviews with him, he's really passionate about this, and wrestling was partially built on the backs of rich weirdos, but I wish he wasn't obsessed with tired old brands. Why can't he do his own thing?

I think his goal, if I'm reading between the lines correctly, is to have a promotion of his own up and running in the next couple of years. In the meantime he's using things like CWH to get exposure for the belt/name again. If I had to guess, I'd say we'll see some kind of NWA show on TV by the end of 2019 with a base roster of 12-15 wrestlers.

CWH is going on the CW Plus channels this weekend, and they've already got timeslots in places like Detroit and Denver outside of LA, so it might end up being a decent starting point. They were also an NWA member before Tharp bought/stole control and was the base for the show that was on Colors back then. Corgan knows promotion and creativity, Lagana knows TV, they've worked together, and I wouldn't rule out their chance to land on Spike/Paramount. The other main option might be trying to strike up a deal with CW to get syndicated through their main channels as well as Plus and go from there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

But Corgan has experience running a company, has people to work with that he trusts, has connections in TV, and has a champion and belt to build off of. It's not ideal, but his champ starts showing up on TV this weekend. I definitely like that his goal is to be more ROH/NJPW in scope than a WWE competitor.

He has a 52 year year old champ with a belt that hasn't been relevant in at least five years, and probably closer to ten.

The time to rebuild that brand has likely passed, somewhere between the detached retina that prevented Bryan Danielson from winning it and the multi-title reigns by Adam Pearce that followed.

[RainMaker]

Why do we think he'll get TV? TNA can barely stay on Pop and aren't even really getting paid for it. Lucha Underground which was actually unique is on the outs. I know there are a million channels now but is someone really going to fork over cash for a tiny promotion?

The only strategy I can see working is just having a handful of big indy shows each year under the NWA banner. Can maybe draw 5k if they're willing to pay for the top indy talent. With that and maybe selling it as an iPPV, you're still looking at a really small business struggling to break even.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Why do we think he'll get TV? TNA can barely stay on Pop and aren't even really getting paid for it. Lucha Underground which was actually unique is on the outs. I know there are a million channels now but is someone really going to fork over cash for a tiny promotion?

The only strategy I can see working is just having a handful of big indy shows each year under the NWA banner. Can maybe draw 5k if they're willing to pay for the top indy talent. With that and maybe selling it as an iPPV, you're still looking at a really small business struggling to break even.

If Dixie isn't stupid enough to keep Russo on the payroll secretly after Spike said he goes or we go, then they're still on Spike. Corgan isn't a moron like she is, and he and Lagana have those TV connections to work on. It probably won't happen, but he's already partnering with someone who has decent TV exposure.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The only strategy I can see working is just having a handful of big indy shows each year under the NWA banner. Can maybe draw 5k if they're willing to pay for the top indy talent. With that and maybe selling it as an iPPV, you're still looking at a really small business struggling to break even.

And booking mega-indy shows is pretty much what he seemed to say he won't do.

And, hey, I get it. That's a big part of what killed the NWA brand for good. The indy names en masse can't put enough extra butts in seats to make them worth the cost.

It's why I saw both a World Title tournament match and more than one (IIRC) 2ndary NWA title defense back in the NWA-Anarchy days ... in front of the same exact house that they drew normally. There was simply no reason for 99% of indies to bring those guys in & pay for it, they don't add up to extra butts in seats.

By & large, aside from the absolute top tier of indies, the crowd will be what it's going to be. Most garden variety indies don't draw -- indeed, don't have the reach TO draw -- more than a smattering of smarts who have any idea who anyone outside of the WWE (and maybe part of TNA) and their local roster is.

[CrescentMoonie]

I think it matters who he partners with to start off. Championship Wrestling from Hollywood is a nice start. Like I said, they're going on all the CW Plus channels starting this weekend, so that's at least a small something.

The ideal indies would probably be groups like AIW, AAW, MCW, and a few others of the top ones who are drawing well. Get the champ on the card and go from there. It also wouldn't surprise me to see him build out of Chicago and try to get outright control of AAW.

From what he said in the interview, he seems like he's going to work with Anthem/Impact as well, and maybe they get desperate enough to sell to him and he rebrands that as NWA. It's just nice to see someone who oversaw a pretty good time in TNA sticking around and trying to build things the right way.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Russell is right there with Solie and Ross for me. Just an iconic voice that evokes a certain time and place as well as any.

Shit, I didn't know his daughter Valerie passed away Friday. Her funeral is tonight (sister just told me she was going to it).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

they're going on all the CW Plus channels starting this weekend, so that's at least a small something.

small indeed

"The service is intended for areas ranked below the top 99 television markets in the United States designated by Nielsen Media Research"

This is actually less television -- by a considerable margin in fact -- than Bill Behrens managed to capture for NWA-Wildside (the forerunner of what would be part of NWA-Anarchy).

What Bill, God love him, did with television was truly remarkable. And with a near-insane amount of labor involved (remember, everything still had to be on physical tapes at that point).

Yet if even that didn't get Anarchy past an arguable #3 position at the time, nothing smaller -- or even remotely similar -- is going to make a meaningful inroad today either.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Shit, I didn't know his daughter Valerie passed away Friday. Her funeral is tonight (sister just told me she was going to it).

Yeah, just a very sad sequence of events for that family.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

If Dixie isn't stupid enough to keep Russo on the payroll secretly after Spike said he goes or we go, then they're still on Spike. Corgan isn't a moron like she is, and he and Lagana have those TV connections to work on. It probably won't happen, but he's already partnering with someone who has decent TV exposure.

It doesn't seem like TNA was doing well even without the Russo issues. It wasn't growing and they were losing stars left and right.

Remember at the heart of that Spike deal TNA had a boatload of talent in and out of the ring. Heck, they had Hogan, Flair, Foley, Nash, and others working for them.

I just don't see how you get TV nowadays. If there is a network that wants pro wrestling on weekly, wouldn't they just hit up New Japan or ROH first? Or hit up WWE and see if you can get one of their second tier shows like 205 Live. I just feel like if I'm a cable executive, Billy Corgan's NWA is about 10th down on my list of places to call for content. And that's assuming he has money to fork out for some top free agent talent.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I just don't see how you get TV nowadays. If there is a network that wants pro wrestling on weekly, wouldn't they just hit up New Japan or ROH first? Or hit up WWE and see if you can get one of their second tier shows like 205 Live. I just feel like if I'm a cable executive, Billy Corgan's NWA is about 10th down on my list of places to call for content. And that's assuming he has money to fork out for some top free agent talent.

Did anyone get a WWE survey recently? It had a rating system to see if you would be interested in them buy other organizations vaults. I know NJPW/ROH was on the list. I thought it was weird to have a list of active organizations listed in the survey.

I wonder if WWE would be interested in using the network for an upstart place like Corgan could have.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Did anyone get a WWE survey recently? It had a rating system to see if you would be interested in them buy other organizations vaults. I know NJPW/ROH was on the list. I thought it was weird to have a list of active organizations listed in the survey.

Yes, I saw that same survey ... somewhere at some point.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

small indeed

"The service is intended for areas ranked below the top 99 television markets in the United States designated by Nielsen Media Research"

This is actually less television -- by a considerable margin in fact -- than Bill Behrens managed to capture for NWA-Wildside (the forerunner of what would be part of NWA-Anarchy).

What Bill, God love him, did with television was truly remarkable. And with a near-insane amount of labor involved (remember, everything still had to be on physical tapes at that point).

Yet if even that didn't get Anarchy past an arguable #3 position at the time, nothing smaller -- or even remotely similar -- is going to make a meaningful inroad today either.

True, but it's something that's already in place which is more than most. The TV outlets for CWH are interesting. I don't know what YouToo America is, but they're on that. They're on TUFF TV, whatever that is. They've got Time Warner Sports in KC. It's a weird collection of random things, but it's something.

Piggybacking off of CWH, with 8 years and tiny but expanding TV isn't the worst idea when he's apparently starting with literally the champ and the belt and nothing more.

I doubt it works, but it's a plan with tangible things so it's something.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It doesn't seem like TNA was doing well even without the Russo issues. It wasn't growing and they were losing stars left and right.

Remember at the heart of that Spike deal TNA had a boatload of talent in and out of the ring. Heck, they had Hogan, Flair, Foley, Nash, and others working for them.

I just don't see how you get TV nowadays. If there is a network that wants pro wrestling on weekly, wouldn't they just hit up New Japan or ROH first? Or hit up WWE and see if you can get one of their second tier shows like 205 Live. I just feel like if I'm a cable executive, Billy Corgan's NWA is about 10th down on my list of places to call for content. And that's assuming he has money to fork out for some top free agent talent.

I can't imagine a decent sized network forking over money for NJPW at all. For all the hype and the AXS TV deal, they've still only got around 10k people outside of Japan paying for their streaming service and have run 2 shows in the US.

ROH is doing well, but they're owned by a TV company that just purchased a bunch more stations, had their highest attended event ever earlier this year, and WWE is circling around their product like a vulture.

There's nothing else at all.

I think that Lagana is the possibility there. He's a legit TV guy and still has connections through is years with WWE, TNA, etc.

[General Mike]

They are doing War Games at the next NXT Takeover Special. It'll be interesting to see if it lives up to the hype.

[murrayyyyy]

Well things finally got interesting on Tuesdays.

RAW. We got the Shield back together...

Smackdown. HMB, we got something better.

[CrescentMoonie]

Proof that sometimes the obvious is the right move. They've been wasting Zayn forever.

Also, by far the best New Day/Usos match.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Proof that sometimes the obvious is the right move. They've been wasting Zayn forever.

Also, by far the best New Day/Usos match.

I felt like the PPV was better than expected but we will see since it had 0 storylines end.

ND/Usos can continue going at it until Mania but it kills the tag division. But you can't stop them as they put on great matches every time.

Nattie does what a heel champion does better than the Majarajah has in one title defense.

They get the title off AJ and make it what it should be, a title to develop guys. Assume this puts AJ after the main title now (after losing rematch Tuesday to a Corbin DQ victory).

An end to a PPV that no one expected.

[CrescentMoonie]

This guy at Jason Powell's (former PWTorch writer) site called it almost perfectly.

https://prowrestling.net/site/2017/1...ake-sense-wwe/

[RainMaker]

The Shield reunion would be better if I cared about who they were fighting. They've made Rollins and Ambrose look really weak lately so it looks like it's just going to be used to try to get Reigns over for the millionth time.

The Zayn turn is interesting but I don't have a lot of confidence in the company to do anything interesting with it.

I still don't understand the Jinder thing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I still don't understand the Jinder thing.

Not sure anybody outside of VKM understands THAT one.