Trump Indictment/Trial thread-2023

[Edward64]

Wonder how SCOTUS will define "insurrection". Definitions matter, especially in this situation.

Definition of insurrection may factor in Trump's eligibility | 9news.com

The two-sentence clause in the 14th Amendment has been used only a handful of times since the years after the Civil War.

Because of that, there's almost no case law defining its terms, including what would constitute an “insurrection.” While people have argued about whether to call Jan. 6 an insurrection ever since the days following the attack, the debate in court this week has been different — whether those who ratified the amendment in 1868 would call it one.

“There's this very public fight, in all these colloquial terms, about whether it's an insurrection, but it really comes down to brass tacks defining what this constitutional term means,” said Derek Muller, a Notre Dame law professor who's followed the litigation closely.

[kingfc22]

It’s sad that we can’t all agree that January 6th is not what the Founders would have wanted because there is no way to know what they would have meant by insurrection.

But god damn, we are one million percent sure they would have wanted every man and woman to have weapons that could wipe out an entire room of people in a matter of seconds.

[RainMaker]

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/03/u...complaint.html

[GrantDawg]

Sounds like the Georgia case is about to fall apart. Papers filed today allege that Fulton DA Fani Willis hired her lover as a "legal advisor" when he had no relevant experience and paid him over a million dollars. They have the evidence.
This will not just disqualify Willis, but the whole Fulton DA's office, which would turn the case over to a Republican AG that will likely drop the charges.

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[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Sounds like the Georgia case is about to fall apart. Papers filed today allege that Fulton DA Fani Willis hired her lover as a "legal advisor" when he had no relevant experience and paid him over a million dollars. They have the evidence.
This will not just disqualify Willis, but the whole Fulton DA's office, which would turn the case over to a Republican AG that will likely drop the charges.

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Nice ... what a cluster.

[RainMaker]

Donald Trump Is Doe 174 in Epstein Documents

[GrantDawg]

Dumb arguments are dumb.

Trump's immunity argument gets destroyed when a federal appeals court judge asks, "Could a president order S.E.A.L. Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? That is an official act and order to Seal Team 6?" pic.twitter.com/yUhZy8iTbQ

— Sarah Reese Jones (@PoliticusSarah) January 9, 2024

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Sounds like the Georgia case is about to fall apart. Papers filed today allege that Fulton DA Fani Willis hired her lover as a "legal advisor" when he had no relevant experience and paid him over a million dollars. They have the evidence.
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The bolded part is the opposite of everything I've read.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

The bolded part is the opposite of everything I've read.

The evidence is in sealed documents in hired attorney's divorce proceedings. The expectations is this filling will open those documents.


Edit: Just to add this wasn't filed by some crack Trump attorney. The attorney is a very well respected defense lawyer in Fulton County who has exposed this kind of corruption in the court before. She famously exposed a judge who was helping coach prosecutors on how to handle cases before him behind close doors. She wouldn't file this as a flyer.

[Ghost Econ]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Dumb arguments are dumb.

Trump's immunity argument gets destroyed when a federal appeals court judge asks, "Could a president order S.E.A.L. Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? That is an official act and order to Seal Team 6?" pic.twitter.com/yUhZy8iTbQ

— Sarah Reese Jones (@PoliticusSarah) January 9, 2024

SEAL Team Six, no. But MEAL Team Six...

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Dumb arguments are dumb.

Trump's immunity argument gets destroyed when a federal appeals court judge asks, "Could a president order S.E.A.L. Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? That is an official act and order to Seal Team 6?" pic.twitter.com/yUhZy8iTbQ

— Sarah Reese Jones (@PoliticusSarah) January 9, 2024

Dumb, yes, but also incredibly dangerous. This argument is comes from the guy that will be representing the GOP in the presidential election. You know, the guy that says he'll be a dictator.

[albionmoonlight]

I've argued against James Pearce (the lawyer for the government today) before. Once you get to the world of federal criminal appellate lawyers, things get pretty small.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I've argued against James Pearce (the lawyer for the government today) before. Once you get to the world of federal criminal appellate lawyers, things get pretty small.

Did you win?

[Edward64]

Important question.

[Thomkal]

I think President Biden should hurry up and get an order off to Seal team six before the judges make their ruling just in case its okay now.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Did you win?

Sadly, no.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

I think President Biden should hurry up and get an order off to Seal team six before the judges make their ruling just in case its okay now.

Their arguments are insane.

Trump is currently arguing Presidents should have immunity while at the same time telling his supporters he plans on using the DOJ to indict Biden. So Trump should have immunity. Not Presidents. That's what this comes down to.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Sadly, no.

:::makes mental note not to hire Albionmoonlight if I need a lawyer.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Their arguments are insane.

Trump is currently arguing Presidents should have immunity while at the same time telling his supporters he plans on using the DOJ to indict Biden. So Trump should have immunity. Not Presidents. That's what this comes down to.

because that's all that matters to him-donald trump. Who cares if the economy gets bad because it gives him a better chance of beating Biden

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

:::makes mental note not to hire Albionmoonlight if I need a lawyer.

I represent people on appeal who've been convicted and sentenced to federal prison.

So . . . yeah, let's hope the question does not come up for you :-)

[Edward64]

Wow. Bet you could write a book about your cases.

Is there a particular one that stands out more than the others?

[GrantDawg]

That's a brutal job. The success rate against Federal prosecutors is small. Important work that has to be like smashing your head against a brick wall. I bet success is like winning a Super Bowl.

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[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I represent people on appeal who've been convicted and sentenced to federal prison.

So . . . yeah, let's hope the question does not come up for you :-)

no comment

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Their arguments are insane.

Trump is currently arguing Presidents should have immunity while at the same time telling his supporters he plans on using the DOJ to indict Biden. So Trump should have immunity. Not Presidents. That's what this comes down to.

It is an insane argument. They're saying that impeachment is how you should charge a President. But apparently, you can send Seal Team 6 in to take out the Senate before they vote and it'd be perfectly legal for the President.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

because that's all that matters to him-donald trump. Who cares if the economy gets bad because it gives him a better chance of beating Biden

Putting the (D) out of the office is worth virtually any price. (Putting an even more pseudocon in is one of the few options that I wouldn't back)

It's one of Trump's strongest points and why I'll vote for him in a November despite much preferring a different candidate in the primary.

[Edward64]

I don't know what you mean by "pseudocon" but assume "fake conservative, pretending to be a conservative".

If so, I'd propose that Trump is a pseudocon.

I'd loved it if Haley, DeSantis or Christie were the alternatives. Pretty sure they are much closer to the Ronald Reagan conservative than Trump.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I don't know what you mean by "pseudocon" but assume "fake conservative, pretending to be a conservative".

If so, I'd propose that Trump is a pseudocon.

I'd loved it if Haley, DeSantis or Christie were the alternatives. Pretty sure they are much closer to the Ronald Reagan conservative than Trump.

I'd just as soon have Biden as Haley or Christie. She's a fraud in every way, Christie is just a fucking (D).

[PilotMan]

Christie is the only one who has any sort of actual sense left on the R side. Next thing you know, Turtle Mitch will be a (D) because he tossed some shade at the house R's about their bullshit.


trump is a straight up con man. A vote for him is a vote to pass on anything resembling personal ethics and responsibility.

[Ksyrup]

McConnell has been censured by both local KY and at least one other state Republican Party group (Alaska I think?). He has lost nearly all sway within the party, from what I can see. The Senate is hanging by a thread onto the "old GOP" philosophy, at least until enough of the same crazies who have invaded the House get into the Senate.

[cartman]

here's the email chain between the judge and attorneys on Trump giving his own closing statement

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nys...Ybw_PLUS_TPQ==

[Kodos]

You'd think a lawyer would actually bother to use capitalization when communicating with the judge.

[cartman]

Trump's lawyers seem to be going a piss poor job of setting things up for appeal. The judge listed numerous times case law supporting his rulings, and they just come back with "that is so unfair".

Judge: If your client does speak at closing, he will be held to the same guardrails as anyone else giving closing arguments. The limits are spelled out in the following case law examples: x,y,z

Attorneys: If he is limited in this way, that is so unfair

[GrantDawg]

They are playing more to the audience of one than appeals. I guess the court of public opinion as well.

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[Bobble]

No, I STRENUOUSLY object!

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by cartman

here's the email chain between the judge and attorneys on Trump giving his own closing statement

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nys...Ybw_PLUS_TPQ==

I like the part of Trump being very close to his MIL.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Bobble

No, I STRENUOUSLY object!

Love the reference.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

They are playing more to the audience of one than appeals. I guess the court of public opinion as well.

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He's all in on winning in November and squashing any trials. He's screwed in the eyes of the law in probably a couple of the trials, so why bother?

[Lathum]

Tell me again how they aren't domestic terrorists....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...y-fraud-trial/

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Sounds like the Georgia case is about to fall apart. Papers filed today allege that Fulton DA Fani Willis hired her lover as a "legal advisor" when he had no relevant experience and paid him over a million dollars. They have the evidence.
This will not just disqualify Willis, but the whole Fulton DA's office, which would turn the case over to a Republican AG that will likely drop the charges.

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Fani Willis spoke for the first time since these allegations, and while she didn't directly admit she slept with the attorney who seemed unqualified for huge goverment contract she gave to him she pretty much admitted she slept with him.

Discussing the legacy of Martin Luther King Jr., Willis said that "his journey was full of mistakes."

"Some of y'all might have forgotten that scandal the FBI tried to do on 'personal indiscretions' they alleged...but now that same FBI will take a day off to celebrate Dr. King." pic.twitter.com/sxrtbgrV2T

— Anna Bower (@AnnaBower) January 14, 2024

[GrantDawg]

A great article on the issue which isn't a conservative "she must be hung" or a liberal "this is a nothing burger."
https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-we...willis-scandal

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[Atocep]

Holy shit this is painful to read.

E. Jean Carroll Judge Bench-Slaps Trump Attorney 14 Times in One Day

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Holy shit this is painful to read.

E. Jean Carroll Judge Bench-Slaps Trump Attorney 14 Times in One Day

Not an attorney and I've only sat in the courtroom a couple times, so no real context.

But TBH, reading some of that, Kaplan didn't need to do some of that dressing down that he did. Or he could just have done it more neutrally (?) vs sarcasm. Per movies I've watched, easy enough to ask "counsel to chambers" for a private dressing down. Or Carroll's counsel should be the one doing the "I object, relevance?"

[Flasch186]

Certain the judges nationally are just as exasperated as the humans on the other side.


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[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Not an attorney and I've only sat in the courtroom a couple times, so no real context.

But TBH, reading some of that, Kaplan didn't need to do some of that dressing down that he did. Or he could just have done it more neutrally (?) vs sarcasm. Per movies I've watched, easy enough to ask "counsel to chambers" for a private dressing down. Or Carroll's counsel should be the one doing the "I object, relevance?"

Her client has been consistently disruptive and their only strategy appears to be to try to get a mistrial or taint the jury. When you combine that with incompetence and lack of basic knowledge of trial procedures you're more likely than not to end up with an annoyed judge.

[Swaggs]

I'm not an attorney, but have spent a decent amount of time as a professional in courtrooms. Judges come in all different forms, but in my experience, most very much have an attitude that the courtroom is their environment/domain and the rules will be followed. It should not be surprising to anyone that has ever stepped foot in or near a courtroom that a nearly 80-year old man, that has been a federal judge for 30-years, is not going to put up with any type of theatrics.

Trump's team of attorneys know what they are doing and so should everyone else. They are trying to frame the case as unfair so that there can be a retrial because everyone always treats Trump unfairly and he can never get a fair shake. This is not a business meeting or group project - what they are doing is ridiculous and they are already getting miles more leeway than any of us ever would.

To me, this is one of the saddest aspects of the Trump era.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

I'm not an attorney, but have spent a decent amount of time as a professional in courtrooms. Judges come in all different forms, but in my experience, most very much have an attitude that the courtroom is their environment/domain and the rules will be followed. It should not be surprising to anyone that has ever stepped foot in or near a courtroom that a nearly 80-year old man, that has been a federal judge for 30-years, is not going to put up with any type of theatrics.

Trump's team of attorneys know what they are doing and so should everyone else. They are trying to frame the case as unfair so that there can be a retrial because everyone always treats Trump unfairly and he can never get a fair shake. This is not a business meeting or group project - what they are doing is ridiculous and they are already getting miles more leeway than any of us ever would.

To me, this is one of the saddest aspects of the Trump era.

This is what I have heard from attorneys over and over again. If they tried to pull some of the stunts that Trump's attorneys have done, they would have been held in contempt without a second thought. This is judges has actually been patient knowing that the Trump people are just trying to play for a mistrial.

[Ghost Econ]

Yeah, but all "neutral" people think judges are being mean to poor old Trump.

[Lathum]

Judge Kaplan has threatened Trump’s lawyer Alina Habba with jail time because she keeps improperly entering evidence. Judge Kaplan to Habba: “Sit down. You are on the verge of spending some time in the lock up.” Lock her up. pic.twitter.com/sR8purRCpY

— Mike Sington (@MikeSington) January 26, 2024

[Atocep]

This is what you get when you hire an attorney that said she'd rather be pretty than smart because she can fake being smart.

[albionmoonlight]

FWIW, any non-famous litigant/attorney combo pulling this shit in federal court would have been sanctioned.

That may not be right. There's a good argument that federal judges are too heavy handed in courtroom management.

But whether it is right or wrong, Trump and his team are getting incredibly special treatment.