Werewolf CXVIIIb XTreme - WOLVES WIN

[Danny]

A game like that could work Autumn, the problem is if the two priests die early the game is basically ruined.

[spleen1015]

Kudos Danny. You almost got Packer to switch. I thought for sure he was going to when I left work to head home. I figured the game would be over when I got back to the thread.

bhlloy deserves a lot of credit too. I think he saw the same Chubby post that made you guys think he was the Seer.

[Danny]

So imagine Hoops and I get the priest roles

[Danny]

You too Spleen, you played a nice game.

[Autumn]

I must admit, I cribbed this rule set completely from Boardgamegeek.com. They have a very large Werewolf community, and a big percentage of their games are no-reveal. This rule set, for example, has been played dozens of times on there so I knew it worked and was balanced. And I knew they played this way, so you guys had to be able to do it.

[Danny]

I spend way too much time on BGG, but have never played werewolf there. I figure I play enough already lol

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Danny

A game like that could work Autumn, the problem is if the two priests die early the game is basically ruined.

It certainly would make things hard, but I think you guys are forgetting that it's hard for the wolves too. If the priest is gone they have no idea if the seer has died, or if the bodyguard has, etc. They also can't get any credit for voting each other, yet can still look suspicious for saving someone.

And I mean really, a lot of you guys nailed bhlloy and spleen early just from their posts. Which happens every game, how many times have you nailed me, Danny, or I've nailed JAG? How often do games turn on seer reveals, and how often on gut calls?

Frankly, part of it is I miss the days of real great wolf fake outs, or even villager fake outs. This game where, Narcizo could fake reveal, and even after his death you weren't sure if he was the seer, the sorceror or a wolf, that was great. And yet it didn't stop you from winning.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Danny

I spend way too much time on BGG, but have never played werewolf there. I figure I play enough already lol

Yeah I haven't played there. I started to get into it when we had a dead spell here, but as soon as i did we picked back up. Great ideas for games and mechanics there though. And I drool over their automated system.

[PackerFanatic]

Plus we damn near won with a freakin' fake wolf reveal. I think our player base is good enough for a game like that.

[PackerFanatic]

Automated system?

[Autumn]

Yeah they have a system where the votes are tallied automatically, there are built in chat rooms for wolves, or whoever else, there's a system for putting in your night actions. And even some of the more complex games can build in things like items or rooms.

[PackerFanatic]

OK I see the system you are talking about - and holy crap. That's pretty awesome.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by PackerFanatic

Plus we damn near won with a freakin' fake wolf reveal. I think our player base is good enough for a game like that.

I do too. Man, I wish I thought of things like that fake reveal when I'm playing. When I'm reading along it all makes sense to me but at the time I never come up with such clear thinking. I remember a great move Lathum made in one game, pretending he was voting one way just to lure out a wolf into joining him and then switching back. Brilliant stuff.

[spleen1015]

We were planning a fake Seer reveal on Day 2, but a good opportunity never presented itself.

I was planning to use Chubby as the Night 0 scan and Danny as Night 1. I figured it would be very believable that I was Seer by picking Danny since he didn't vote Day 1.

[spleen1015]

Did the spectator thread on JAGs board ever get any play?

[Zinto]

Well Jag and I sniped out Spleen as the last wolf as the day began but honestly once Danny fake revealed as a wolf I thought he had to be a wolf. I am kicking myself for revealing on day three though I am not sure how much it would have mattered.

[Zinto]

I am not sure if we are allowed to post inbetween the half an hour time period or I was going to make a case for Danny being a villager. I thought it was not fair and I did not want to be wrong so I did not do so.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Zinto

Well Jag and I sniped out Spleen as the last wolf as the day began but honestly once Danny fake revealed as a wolf I thought he had to be a wolf. I am kicking myself for revealing on day three though I am not sure how much it would have mattered.

It definitely made the NK easier.

I think I would have taken PF out if I didn't know.

[spleen1015]

I think you're allowed to post as long as you're officially alive.

[Zinto]

Great job Bhlloy and Spleen you guys did a great job. Danny I loved your fake wolf reveal even though it was a little too ballsy for my taste. Packer good try you were stuck in the worst position.

[Danny]

Btw for smaller groups, you guys should check out the resistance, it's incredibly fun and werewolf like. Darth and I played 5 games on Tuesday with 6 total people and even with 6 it was a blast to play.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Zinto

I am not sure if we are allowed to post inbetween the half an hour time period or I was going to make a case for Danny being a villager. I thought it was not fair and I did not want to be wrong so I did not do so.

Awww man

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I think you're allowed to post as long as you're officially alive.

Yeah until you're posted to be dead you can talk. Narc just freaked you out by saying you were going to die. But he didn't know crap ;-)

I thought Narc should have fake revealed earlier, maybe countering PF. But basically I'm just dying to play the Sorceror role sometime, it's so fun.

[Zinto]

I actually really enjoyed this game Autumn and I appreciate you running it. The no reveal while sort of frustating added a pretty cool wrinkle to the game.

[Danny]

Autumn, I must be missing something, but where do I see the automated system on BGG?

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

We were planning a fake Seer reveal on Day 2, but a good opportunity never presented itself.

I was planning to use Chubby as the Night 0 scan and Danny as Night 1. I figured it would be very believable that I was Seer by picking Danny since he didn't vote Day 1.

I think a great move in a game like this would be to fake reveal as a seer and then have the other wolf night kill you, but keep the real seer alive ;-)

[Danny]

Now that would be ballsy

[Zinto]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Yeah until you're posted to be dead you can talk. Narc just freaked you out by saying you were going to die. But he didn't know crap ;-)

I thought Narc should have fake revealed earlier, maybe countering PF. But basically I'm just dying to play the Sorceror role sometime, it's so fun.

Yep Narc did a good job at getting me to keep my mouth shut.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Danny

Autumn, I must be missing something, but where do I see the automated system on BGG?

It's called Cassandra, I think, and they use it in most of the games. when you sign up for a game you sign up on Cassandra and it does all the behind the scenes stuff. Basically if you look in the games you'll see the vote tallies are posted by it.

Ah here is the link BGG Werewolf Stats

[Danny]

Ah, that's cool

[JAG]

First off, fun game, thanks Autumn. I actually think this is a great format for a small game than revealing roles on death as there's a lot more intrigue, thinking of different scenarios, and chances for bold opportunities to succeed, as spleen and bhlloy accomplished.

Nice job wolves, you completely confused me as to what happened with the NK and such. As D3 began, I was highly certain PF was lying, that there was no way they'd leave him alive to reveal bhlloy as wolf, especially with me as the NK since I was the one defending bhlloy most. I'm not sure that was the optimal way through the woods D2 (if Zinto doesn't reveal and you pick the wrong target for the NK, with three players left the remaining villager has a humorous opportunity to pull off the win by self-voting and leaving the hunter with the wolf...though I think Zinto was the likely NK target anyway being that you wouldn't kill PF with the hunter potentially at large).

Danny, interesting move at the end. In my reasoning at the beginning of D3, I basically determined it wasn't possible that both Narcizo and PF were lying if no one else came out and disputed a role...otherwise you'd have to believe bhlloy, mau, and I went down without providing any info (if I had been seer, I would've revealed my info at the N2 deadline in case I was NK'ed). So I thought you'd realize PF had to be telling the truth and then you wouldn't have to fake reveal as a wolf as you did, which probably made it tougher to trust PF. You did really well with your explanation though. Tough deal at the end for PF, those 50-50 shots don't usually seem to go for the villager. Overall, not a bad performance for the village considering we lost the seer N1.

[Danny]

It was pretty easy for you to know both Narcizo and Packer weren't lying since you knew you didn't have a role. I wasn't sure as I thought it was possible you were the seer and went down thinking you wouldn't be night killed

[JAG]

Well, you know for next time I wouldn't do that. I actually outlined exactly what I thought the seer and priest should do at the start of D2, so going by my own logic, you could've assumed I was not the seer unless you thought I was trying to be coy.

[Danny]

Plus i read through day 1 and start of day two very quickly so I over looked that

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Yeah until you're posted to be dead you can talk. Narc just freaked you out by saying you were going to die. But he didn't know crap ;-)

I thought Narc should have fake revealed earlier, maybe countering PF. But basically I'm just dying to play the Sorceror role sometime, it's so fun.

I was more making sure that the wolf did kill Zinto and I was trying to subtly push the idea that Packer and I were wolves together. At the time I was worried that Danny was the wolf and would think Packer was the sorceror so I wanted to make sure he didn't do anything silly there.

Might seem fun to you Autumn but you're probably a bolder soul than me. I was paralysed with fear over causing a wolf to die for the first two days. I figured mau was a villager making a mistake on day one so I was happy enough going there. Day two I thought spleen was a villager as I'd pretty much decided either JAG or Packer was a wolf. When he came out and voted against me it kind of made me worried he was a wolf after all but I didn't really know what else to do in the circumstances. I was planning to fake reveal as the priest and say that mau was a wolf on day two, to try and let the wolves know who I was. I'd even typed it all out and everything but I just couldn't bring myself to do it because I didn't want to accidentally incriminate a wolf and I was worried that mau was a wolf and Chubby was the priest.

And yesterday was just a horrible roller-coaster ride of hope, despair and then confusion.

Start of the day I was pretty sure Packer was one of two wolves, I'd say 80%. 10% I thought Packer was a lone wolf and mau or bhlloy had been a wolf. I really couldn't see how Packer could be on the level unless spleen was a wolf and it was wolf-wolf on day two. So basically I wanted to signal to Packer and whoever his team-mate was to vote me and get it over with. On the off chance spleen was the wolf I wanted to let him know who I was so he could back me up if the opportunity arose and I wanted to try to flush out the seer if he was still alive. (I actually figured Danny might be it if he wasn't a wolf-partner with Packer).

Then Packer came onto me full bore without any hint that he had got my message and I got worried. When Danny didn't counter-reveal as a seer I thought I'd really blown it and that Danny was the wolf. That's why I switched to Packer. Had I stayed where I was we might well have won there and then, but I couldn't take the risk. I had it all planned how I was going to vote "no lynch" tomorrow to make sure that the wolf won and no hunter could save the day.

After that I just swung between thinking spleen or Danny was the wolf. Spleen played it smart and voted Packer to start - not Danny. But then I was wondering if Bhlloy was thrown under the bus and Packer left to report it because Danny wanted to get trust that way. By the time everyone had voted nightfall I really had no idea who the wolf was. I'd even started worrying that Packer was the wolf but only in a very paranoid way.

After nightfall I thought for a second that Packer and Danny were the wolves after all and had just strung me along all day. Since then I've been certain that Danny is the wolf and I blew it by voting him to start or that spleen was the wolf and Danny would work it out. I would say I was about 50% Danny/40% Spleen/10% Packer. I was unbelievably relieved to see that the wolves had won today but reading through I was still uncertain whether it was spleen or Danny (or Packer) who had pulled it off. When Danny revealed as a wolf I actually thought that he was the wolf and convinced Packer of it and that it was the most incredible bit of wolfish play EVAH! Great play by Danny there.

And great play by spleen. You played it really well - and I was convinced you were a villager on day two so you pulled that off nicely as well. Bit too nicely really. But if you're a wolf really don't leave your vote out hanging like that on day one.

And yeah I think the no-reveal thing is great for a small game. I think the odds (2 wolves and sorceror) were slightly stacked in the wolf's favour here but then again "we" took out the seer on night one. Without that the seer would probably reveal and the sorceror would have to fake reveal to muddy the waters. So I guess it's pretty even.

[Narcizo]

Oh my God I just saw what I was about to post on day two. Thank God I bottled out. This was when I was pretty sure that Packer or JAG (or both) were wolves.

Okay there's about an hour to go for me so I want to get this out there. I really wanted to hear from Danny before coming out with this because he is very relevant to my thoughts but I don't really have much time left as I'm going soon. We seem to be heading this way anyway so I don't so any reason to hold onto things any longer.

So I'm the priest and, wouldn't you know it? Mau was a wolfy. If you look at the vote table in light of this you get the idea of who my suspects were coming into the day, basically - zinto, spleen, bhlloy or danny. So I decided to engage in a bit of narkle theatre and try to get a gauge on reactions. I couldn't really understand
a) what the hell mau was doing moving from chubby in the first place, or
b) the logic in taking out chubby because it leaves the non-mau voters a bit exposed.

Both initially made me lean towards bhlloy being the other wolf and the whole thing yesterday being an ill-advised bit of wolf-on-wolf action but it looked like he was already going to get heat so I looked at the next suspect - spleen. Suffice to say the (over?)reaction he gave was enough to make me happy with my vote. I'm still not certain spleen (or bhlloy for that matter) is the wolf so I was hoping for some sort of reaction from Danny - but I really don't have time for that. It looked like we were heading down the route of spleen-bhlloy so I could sit on it until tomorrow but then I could be killed in the night and not able to come out with the information.

#33 - 09:54 - mauboy1 votes Chubby(1)
#44 - 10:10 - Narcizo votes PackerFanatic(1)
#45 - 10:10 - PackerFanatic votes JAG(1)
#47 - 10:18 - JAG votes Chubby(2)
#48 - 10:36 - Chubby votes JAG(2)
#51 - 10:46 - spleen1015 votes PackerFanatic(2)
#52 - 11:07 - bhlloy votes Chubby(3)

#56 - 11:30 - mauboy1 - unvote Chubby(2), vote bhlloy(1)
#78 - 13:31 - Zinto votes Bhlloy (2)
#86 - 14:12 - JAG - unvote Chubby (1), vote mau (1)
#88 - 14:19 - Packer - unvote JAG (1), vote mau (2)
#89 - 14:23 - Narcizo - unvote Packer (1),vote mau (3)
#128 - 17:15 - Chubby - unvote JAG (0), vote bhlloy (3)
#129 - 17:16 - Bhlloy - unvote Chubby (0), vote mau (4)

1 PackerFanatic - spleen (51)
3 Bhlloy - mau (56), Zinto (78), Chubby (128)
4 Mau - JAG (86), Packer (88), Narcizo (89), Bhlloy (129)

Wonder what would have happened if I posted that. The wolves would have known I was the sorceror but they would probably have rage-killed me anyway. On the other hand it might have worked out once Packer counter-revealed. The wolves would be able to side with Packer and kill me leaving two wolves alive on day three. It would probably have made day two as thick with intrigue as day three was anyway.

[Narcizo]

Rereading day one I should have picked up on the fact that both bhlloy and spleen were saying how suspicious they found mau's move but neither were voting for him. I think I actually did notice it and thought I'd be all over it were I a villager at the time but then I forgot it again.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

We were planning a fake Seer reveal on Day 2, but a good opportunity never presented itself.

I was planning to use Chubby as the Night 0 scan and Danny as Night 1. I figured it would be very believable that I was Seer by picking Danny since he didn't vote Day 1.

I was going to reveal early on day 2 since I had scanned bhlloy night 1 before i got NKd.

It sucked getting 3 early votes on day 1. With only 9 total votes and I didn't anticipate much late voting I really didn't want to get lynched so I tried to drop some subtle hints to get people to move their votes but not put up a neon sign saying "SEER!!!" I didn't see any value to coming out day 1 with "zinto was my night 0 scan as clean" since it could easily be not believe anyways.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Chubby

I was going to reveal early on day 2 since I had scanned bhlloy night 1 before i got NKd.

It sucked getting 3 early votes on day 1. With only 9 total votes and I didn't anticipate much late voting I really didn't want to get lynched so I tried to drop some subtle hints to get people to move their votes but not put up a neon sign saying "SEER!!!" I didn't see any value to coming out day 1 with "zinto was my night 0 scan as clean" since it could easily be not believe anyways.

So, it looks like Chubby getting NKed on Night 1 really saved the game for the wolves. At the very least it kept us on a very good path.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Autumn

It's called Cassandra, I think, and they use it in most of the games. when you sign up for a game you sign up on Cassandra and it does all the behind the scenes stuff. Basically if you look in the games you'll see the vote tallies are posted by it.

Ah here is the link BGG Werewolf Stats

Yes yes Cassandra is a fantastic tool for playing Werewolf at BGG-adds so much to the game with individual chat rooms, team chat rooms, mod chat with each player so you don't have to clean out all those messages like you do here....one of you techies need to get on this and see if somehow it can be adapted for use here (or a new one created) And there's just a lot of great games there to read and use over here-especially the early ones that have been so popular they have spawned several replays with additional rules/roles,etc.

[Narcizo]

I just get completely bewildered reading most games on BGG - and the default forum skin doesn't help matters. I don't know who anyone is or what the hell they're arguing about half the time.

[PackerFanatic]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

....one of you techies need to get on this and see if somehow it can be adapted for use here (or a new one created)

That's why I had asked about it, just to get an idea of what it might entail. That is just far too ridiculous for me to attempt alone, for sure

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

Might seem fun to you Autumn but you're probably a bolder soul than me. I was paralysed with fear over causing a wolf to die for the first two days.

Well there is that. Yeah, when I read that post you sent me you were thinking about revealing, I was like

I couldn't really say anything back without giving anything away.

But the best part about being sorceror is that getting lynched is a win! So you can go balls out and just see what happens. It is much more fun when you know who the wolves are (I think this game was too small for that, but in a larger game it works). But you did a great job sowing confusion. I thought it was great when Danny started second guessing, figuring you were a wolf pretending to be sorceror.

[JAG]

Voting No Lynch to get around the hunter in a 1-1-1 endgame, that's great. I'll add that to my box of tricks in the event I'm ever anything other than a vanilla villager.

The reason I didn't vote bhlloy D2 is because I figured he was the most obvious scan target and the seer hadn't come out and denounced him. I figured he was a likely villager unless Chubby was the seer. One of the few things I got right this game. (other than thinking spleen was a good target at the end of D2).

[spleen1015]

If I get into more games in the future, I hope I am a villager. I think it is hard to play a wolf, at least for me.

[JAG]

bhlloy is the new PurdueBrad btw. I think he was a vanilla villager in the Amazing Race game, but since then has either been roled or a wolf, unless I'm misremembering a game.

[Lathum]

So how did the no role reveals work out?

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

If I get into more games in the future, I hope I am a villager. I think it is hard to play a wolf, at least for me.

Me too. Let me do my early analysis and then kill me off so I can post on Jag's forum. That will do me.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Lathum

So how did the no role reveals work out?

I would say it worked perfectly.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

Wonder what would have happened if I posted that. The wolves would have known I was the sorceror but they would probably have rage-killed me anyway. On the other hand it might have worked out once Packer counter-revealed. The wolves would be able to side with Packer and kill me leaving two wolves alive on day three. It would probably have made day two as thick with intrigue as day three was anyway.

Actually the more I think about it the more I think that this would have worked. Bhlloy and spleen could have both voted against me and then if anyone was voting Packer they could have switched. Then it would have been 2-1-2 on day three. Except I would have had to be around to move my vote onto Packer.