Werewolf LVI: Beneath the Iron Cross - GAME OVER, VILLAGERS WIN!

[RendeR]

WTF? If you're not convinced I am a wolf then HOW is that the best option? How am I the best bet to finding a wolf?

[jeheinz72]

I'm pretty convinced RendeR is a wolf. I was on him as one from the get-go and I see no reason to change that from my Day One vote just because Hoops named him, lying or not. I didn't like RendeR's silent play at the get-go, where he said he'd be quiet all game, and then his explaination to me was about a Bengals game just that night. That would excuse one vote of being quiet, but the original post from him was about being quiet all game. Flimsy I know, but at this point I'm willing to go with it.

It boils down to, without any other clear cut better possibilities, I'll take my chances on a RendeR vote first then weigh the votes and talk from there and re-analyze if I need to.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Render that's a bunch of bull. I could die either because someone wants to frame you or because I'm going to come hard out against you tomorrow and you think it'll be easier to convince people if I'm not around. My being dead tells nothing. So with that said, let's not setup a scenario where my being alive is meaningful.

If you get killed at night, what do YOU think happens today? Hrm? *I* get lynched with no one even batting an eyelash about the vote. I'll have a dozen votes before dinnertime.And then what? we've learned absolutely NOTHING for another day and we lose another villager.

It still don't understand WHy you're coming out hard after me at all. You're taking the word of a WOLF for christs sake and you're trying to tell us its the right play?? Are you NUTS? Common sense tells us that anything hoops says is utter bullshit, but not you, YOU swallowed it hook line and fucking sinker.

Do you really not see the idiocy in your stance? You want to BELIEVE an outed wolf is going to give up his teamate? You really can't expect anyone to believe that.

I state again if you persist with this YOU are a wolf, there is no other viable reason for such a stance. If you actually believe he's telling the truth yer an idiot.

I've had no PM's I've had no actions, I can't because I'm a fucking villager.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

I'm pretty convinced RendeR is a wolf. I was on him as one from the get-go and I see no reason to change that from my Day One vote just because Hoops named him, lying or not. I didn't like RendeR's silent play at the get-go, where he said he'd be quiet all game, and then his explaination to me was about a Bengals game just that night. That would excuse one vote of being quiet, but the original post from him was about being quiet all game. Flimsy I know, but at this point I'm willing to go with it.

It boils down to, without any other clear cut better possibilities, I'll take my chances on a RendeR vote first then weigh the votes and talk from there and re-analyze if I need to.

Use your freaking brain for a few minutes. and read my previous post aimed at BK.

A) I've been quiet most of the game because I've been at work all week. I'm normally much more involved in everything but I haven't had the time. The game commentary was because even if I wasn't busy with work I'd be watching the game because thats more important to me. (a couple games back people got on me for the same reason you are and it was because I was watching the bengals Ravens game and had to explain myself then too)

ust THINK people:

Hoops gets outed first night, he's got no way out and he knows it.

He manages to convice the Duke to let him survive for another night, and gets blindsided by the duke nailing eagle.

He then spends another entire day throwing out innuendo and accusation and "Oh I'll be the honorable wolf" bullshit.

Remember that he tried to tell everyone I was the duke first and then when that blew up on him I'm suddenly his teamate?? And he's OUTTING HIS TEAMATE?

Seriously, how fucking blind do you have to be not to see this as utter tripe?

You can NEVER trust a wolf, EVER its just fucking stupid.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by RendeR

If you get killed at night, what do YOU think happens today? Hrm? *I* get lynched with no one even batting an eyelash about the vote. I'll have a dozen votes before dinnertime.And then what? we've learned absolutely NOTHING for another day and we lose another villager.

It still don't understand WHy you're coming out hard after me at all. You're taking the word of a WOLF for christs sake and you're trying to tell us its the right play?? Are you NUTS? Common sense tells us that anything hoops says is utter bullshit, but not you, YOU swallowed it hook line and fucking sinker.

Do you really not see the idiocy in your stance? You want to BELIEVE an outed wolf is going to give up his teamate? You really can't expect anyone to believe that.

I state again if you persist with this YOU are a wolf, there is no other viable reason for such a stance. If you actually believe he's telling the truth yer an idiot.

I've had no PM's I've had no actions, I can't because I'm a fucking villager.

For me it's not really whether he's telling the truth almost. It's that it's worth a shot. I do think you are right though, if you turn up villager, I'll take a peek at Barkeep. It wouldn't surprise me after the statement of "I wouldn't pick Barkeep, he wouldn't pick me" [to paraphrase] if that's the part of Hoops jargon that was a lie.

I'm looking at

1. RendeR
2. Barkeep
3. The field

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

For me it's not really whether he's telling the truth almost. It's that it's worth a shot. I do think you are right though, if you turn up villager, I'll take a peek at Barkeep. It wouldn't surprise me after the statement of "I wouldn't pick Barkeep, he wouldn't pick me" [to paraphrase] if that's the part of Hoops jargon that was a lie.

I'm looking at

1. RendeR
2. Barkeep
3. The field

Ok then take a look at your OWN logic here, If what I say is true, AND you alread suspect BK even a little becase of what was said by hoops to begin with, then how is voting for ME the smarter choice?

Doesn't it make far more sense that a wolf would lie through his fangs to throw suspicion on a villager and have another wolf who has built up some trust (how he has I don't know but DT is tagging along like a happy little puppy) then push the issue like a nut case going against all common sense that the dead wolf was outting his teamate?

THINK. how is lynching ME the smarter choice?

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by RendeR

THINK. how is lynching ME the smarter choice?

It's pretty simple really. I thought your were a wolf from the get-go. Hoops pointing you out makes me more than happy to take a peek and see if my hunch was right.

Sure, there are others that have given out dabbles of wolvishness, but nothing that great to go on, so I'll go with my gut.

[oliegirl]

OK...I know BK is a villager. I'm the inquisitive and I scanned him on night 1. He does have a role, but I don't think he's aware of it.

I also scanned ntndeacon to confirm he was the witness, and he is. I scanned Antmeister last night, but have not received the results yet.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

OK...I know BK is a villager. I'm the inquisitive and I scanned him on night 1. He does have a role, but I don't think he's aware of it.

I also scanned ntndeacon to confirm he was the witness, and he is. I scanned Antmeister last night, but have not received the results yet.

No offense, but what the hell made you coose Ant to scan? he's not even being considered for anything and helps nothing? This smells of a false reveal with no one left to call you on it.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

It's pretty simple really. I thought your were a wolf from the get-go. Hoops pointing you out makes me more than happy to take a peek and see if my hunch was right.

Sure, there are others that have given out dabbles of wolvishness, but nothing that great to go on, so I'll go with my gut.

Nothing that great to go on? WTF? are you ignoring my posts or are you simply cowtowing to more popular players now? YOU HAVE NOTHING ON ME beyond the word of the ALPHA WOLF to go on. how the fuck does that translate into anything better to go on? You might as well spin random.org because thats what you got a random guess.

At least I'm trying to think around here. Seems like the rest of you lot are too tired to bother.

[DaddyTorgo]

woot woot!

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RendeR

No offense, but what the hell made you coose Ant to scan? he's not even being considered for anything and helps nothing? This smells of a false reveal with no one left to call you on it.

interesting point...and the waters are muddied

[RealDeal]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

OK...I know BK is a villager. I'm the inquisitive and I scanned him on night 1. He does have a role, but I don't think he's aware of it.

I also scanned ntndeacon to confirm he was the witness, and he is. I scanned Antmeister last night, but have not received the results yet.

If true, this means barkeep is the holy mark or the unholy mark, and it makes me wonder a little bit about the night with no wolf kill.

[RendeR]

If her information IS true it points very heavily that there are at least 2 possible wolves left out there and that our ration of good to bad is distinctly in jeopardy. Which of course frustrates the hell out of me as you all seem to want to lynch ME tonight and being a generic villager that only hurts us and gains us Zero informatoin.

[oliegirl]

I scanned Ant b/c with my role, I don't see wolves, they scan to me as villagers. I can only discover villager roles, so I've been scanning people who I thought were villagers to try and determine who has what role.

[DaddyTorgo]

well we could lynch BK to be certain and to test olie's info...or lynch render and save that for later...

[RendeR]

Actually, lets look at this again, BK is coming out gung ho for me to get lynched, his reason, for the most part is simply that the Alpha wolf said so, and he BELIEVES HIM. Now if in fact he IS the unholy mark and the conversion happened, this makes complete sense.

Now, AmI STILL the best bet for tonight? Or wouldn't be a BIT more prudent to lynch BK as the "well if its not him then we get the other guy" target?

[ArlingtonColt]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Man, I would have been so stoked if Arlington had chosen Barkeep instead. He is clearly playing very differently than his usual game, despite being a villager. But no, he has to choose the wolf that I was going to give up anyway and now I have to sell out someone that I didn't really want to in the first place.

This along with a few other posts has me leaning towards BK today... It's between him and RendeR as far as I'm concerned.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

well we could lynch BK to be certain and to test olie's info...or lynch render and save that for later...

based on the source of BK's acusations, doesn't it make more sense to test Olie's theory first??

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by ArlingtonColt

This along with a few other posts has me leaning towards BK today... It's between him and RendeR as far as I'm concerned.

Again, what evidence is there regarding ME? You can't tell me with a straight face that you actually BELIEVE the alpha wolf?

[ArlingtonColt]

I really don't have evidence on you.. I'm almost certainly voting on BK tonight.

[RealDeal]

I'm not completely comfortable that BK is a wolf either, but I'll be damned if I ever vote for someone because a outed alpha wolf said he was a wolf. So unless someone's got a lot better info than I've seen so far, I am not voting for Render, just on principle.

Remember, Hoops is a wolf. He's not helping us. Think about it: if Hoops was telling the truth, then he did something questionable that arguably sold out the wolves and might be considered bad form in a WW game. If he is lying, then everyone that votes for Render is going to look phenominally dumb.

[Neon_Chaos]

Night 3:

You wake up feeling well. The Alpha Wolf was taken down last night. Things could only get better. As everyone gathers in the hall, you notice that someone is missing. You run into DaddyTorgo's room, and see that he has been strangled to death. You look around, and you find several empty vials that apparently contained some pungent liquid. Pherromones? Dragging DaddyTorgo's body into the chamber, you have Neon Chaos analyze his genetic makeup.

DEGENETIZATION COMPLETE.
ANALYZING PARTICLES.
GENETICS CONFIRMED.
ANALYSIS COMPLETE.

SPECIMEN ANALYSIS: CODENAME - HERBALIST

CHAMBER RECHARGING.
EST. RECHARGE TIME: 11 HOURS.

HAVE A NICE DAY.

Gloom sets in. You have a long day ahead of you.

Day 4 has begun: Votes are due at 9:00 PM CST. Only votes that are made after this post count.

[path12]

Originally Posted by RendeR

It still don't understand WHy you're coming out hard after me at all. You're taking the word of a WOLF for christs sake and you're trying to tell us its the right play?? Are you NUTS? Common sense tells us that anything hoops says is utter bullshit, but not you, YOU swallowed it hook line and fucking sinker.

RendeR, who would you propose as a better candidate?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

I'm not completely comfortable that BK is a wolf either, but I'll be damned if I ever vote for someone because a outed alpha wolf said he was a wolf. So unless someone's got a lot better info than I've seen so far, I am not voting for Render, just on principle.

Remember, Hoops is a wolf. He's not helping us. Think about it: if Hoops was telling the truth, then he did something questionable that arguably sold out the wolves and might be considered bad form in a WW game. If he is lying, then everyone that votes for Render is going to look phenominally dumb.

Thank the gods, someone out there has a modicum of common sense.

Thank You RD.

[RealDeal]

geez I feel like the wolves know a lot more than we do.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by path12

RendeR, who would you propose as a better candidate?

At this point I have to say barkeep, for the following reasons:


A) Olie , if she is giving us valid information, says he has a role and may or may not know it, but he shows up as a villager. this means 1 of two things, holy mark or unholy mark.

B) There was no kill on night 2, this means 1 of two things, Either the BG defended someone successfully OR the wolves targeted BK and converted the unholy mark.

C) Bk was inferred by denial in hoopsguys post ranting in that "he could never pick barkeep..."

D) almost immediately upon Hoops "outting" me as his fellow wolf barkeep lept upon me like a wild animal on a fresh carcass. Not normal BK style at all, he is generally MUCH more thoughtful in his commentary.

E) BK states flat out that he BELIEVES hoopsguy, the known Alfa wolf, over and above every common sense trigger imaginable.


I'll be voting barkeep49, I may be wrong and if I am I'll be the first to apologize to him, but there is simply too much evidence in my mind to go anywhere else.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

ant, the witness doesnt have to guess. He just picks a night, and if a kill happens, he gets to see it. That's why Hoops was complaining that it is unbalanced. The only guessing involved is assuming that the wolves will try a night kill on the night you use your ability.

You are correct, I misterpreted the role. I thought you had to choose a person to witness that night.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

geez I feel like the wolves know a lot more than we do.

They do seem to have some pretty fucking amazing luck thus far.....

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

You are correct, I misterpreted the role. I thought you had to choose a person to witness that night.

That would make the role less deal breaking for the wolves. Its sometihng I will be working into the rules for my game coming up.

[Antmeister]

Argh......not the herbalist!

[ArlingtonColt]

I agree with RendeR on this one... those are all points I saw as well.

[path12]

Originally Posted by RendeR

At this point I have to say barkeep, for the following reasons:


A) Olie , if she is giving us valid information, says he has a role and may or may not know it, but he shows up as a villager. this means 1 of two things, holy mark or unholy mark.

B) There was no kill on night 2, this means 1 of two things, Either the BG defended someone successfully OR the wolves targeted BK and converted the unholy mark.

C) Bk was inferred by denial in hoopsguys post ranting in that "he could never pick barkeep..."

D) almost immediately upon Hoops "outting" me as his fellow wolf barkeep lept upon me like a wild animal on a fresh carcass. Not normal BK style at all, he is generally MUCH more thoughtful in his commentary.

E) BK states flat out that he BELIEVES hoopsguy, the known Alfa wolf, over and above every common sense trigger imaginable.


I'll be voting barkeep49, I may be wrong and if I am I'll be the first to apologize to him, but there is simply too much evidence in my mind to go anywhere else.

You can't have both C and E there. They contradict.

A is a valid point.
B -- valid except I would add that it would be just as possible he was the Holy Mark as the Unholy Mark.
D -- I'll have to go back and look, I don't remember him "leaping" on you. I will say that although I totally agree that hoops was playing us, I think it is a big mistake to think that he didn't have truth mixed in with the bullshit. If I read hoops correctly (and I had Eagle as a top prospect for him to pick), he would leave clues if for no other reason than a meta analysis of how we process information.

I'm not sold on Barkeep right now, but I won't write him off either. Same with you. What I'm more concerned about is something regarding the roles that are left out there, but I don't have time to get into that right now......

[RendeR]

Sorry you bought it last night DT, wish we had you around longer =(

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

OK...I know BK is a villager. I'm the inquisitive and I scanned him on night 1. He does have a role, but I don't think he's aware of it.

I also scanned ntndeacon to confirm he was the witness, and he is. I scanned Antmeister last night, but have not received the results yet.

Olie, did you learn his exact role ( you don't have to say what it is)

If he's the UnholyMark then he was a Villager when you scanned him, and could be a wolf now if they attacked him. If they didn't though, he's a potential wolf and we have to think if we get another no-kill he's a wolf.

If he's just the HolyMark, then he's just not killable right? Which would also mean the Unholy is out there.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by path12

You can't have both C and E there. They contradict.

Please explain how they contradict at all?

Hoops stated he would never pick BK, stating that publicly should have thrown up red flags for everyone, it certainly blinked my radar hard.

It is a fact that BK stated his trust in what hoops had been saying.


I'm not saying hoops DID pick BK, I'm only saying that we should have been suspicious that hoops implicated BK by denying the possibility.

[DaddyTorgo]

MOTHERFUCKER!!!

I didn't think I was obvious about anything at all.

sorry I won't be able to vote today

go village!

[path12]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Please explain how they contradict at all?

Hoops stated he would never pick BK, stating that publicly should have thrown up red flags for everyone, it certainly blinked my radar hard.

It is a fact that BK stated his trust in what hoops had been saying.


I'm not saying hoops DID pick BK, I'm only saying that we should have been suspicious that hoops implicated BK by denying the possibility.

They contradict because you're using what hoops said in one while saying in the other that you can't trust hoops.

[ArlingtonColt]

I just noticed in another thread (the cry here if you died to early in a werewolf game) that after hoops announced RendeR as the final wolf EagleFan says "WTF?!?!?! Not sure what else to say at this point... " Could he be venting some frustration at an empending loss? or could i just be reading too much into it? Looks supicious to me.

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

Olie, did you learn his exact role ( you don't have to say what it is)

If he's the UnholyMark then he was a Villager when you scanned him, and could be a wolf now if they attacked him. If they didn't though, he's a potential wolf and we have to think if we get another no-kill he's a wolf.

If he's just the HolyMark, then he's just not killable right? Which would also mean the Unholy is out there.

Yes I did.

Ant came back a villager, which means he could be a wolf.

If I'm keeping up, all the "definite" villager roles from Neon are filled...Seer, Herbalist and Magistrate.

Of the Possible Villager roles, I know of 3...BK, myself and NTN. That leaves the Fool, The Psychic Siblings, the Psycopath, and the Angel as possible roles still out there.

Players with unknown roles are:

Path12
Saldana
RendeR
JEHeinz72
Antmeister
Chief Rum
Real Deal
NTN
BK
Pass

My CoT has: me, BK and NTN...think it would be a huge mistake to vote for BK tonight, and also a mistake to vote for RendeR, unless we have reason other than "Hoops said he was a wolf". There are a lot of people out there to suspect, I suggest we look at Hoops list, who has been quiet, and go from there...Hoops was a dominant player/wolf - gave the other wolves the ability to just sit back and watch things happen.

[saldana]

i, for one, dont belive a single word that hoops said...and i disagree with barkeep's assessment that he would ever lay down and concede defeat.

i am much more inclined to go with a BK vote in hopes of hitting the unholy mark than I am with render today based on that thought

however, i may vote for render just becasue i could do without his ranting profanity and insults because he doesnt like the way the day is leaning....

PING RENDER....this is werewolf....we all have been and will be lynched when we are totally innocent.....no one here is playing so that they can be sworn at and insulted by someone else over a difference in opinion. i am no choir-boy by anymeans, but have a little bit of respect for the people you are playing with and dial it down a notch.

[oliegirl]

i am much more inclined to go with a BK vote in hopes of hitting the unholy mark than I am with render today based on that thought

BK is in my CoT...doesn't that tell you something???

[saldana]

looking back at Oliegirl's role, Barkeep cant be the unholy mark...

Originally Posted by Neon's ruleset

Inquisitive - You are an Inquisitive Villager. Each night, you may choose to find out the Role of one player. You will only discover Villager roles. Werewolves will only appear as Villagers to you. The Fool will appear as a Seer.

the unholy mark is listed as a werewolf role, so the fact that she knows that barkeep has any role at all has to make him the holy mark, or the fool

[saldana]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

BK is in my CoT...doesn't that tell you something???

yes...it tells me we cross posted...please look at my last post above this one.

[jeheinz72]

Thanks Olie (though BK and NTN were both listed as having unknown roles?).

I'm down for not voting BK then.

So where does that leave us?

Either we take the "word" of a Wolf and go RendeR or ?

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

Thanks Olie (though BK and NTN were both listed as having unknown roles?).

I'm down for not voting BK then.

So where does that leave us?

Either we take the "word" of a Wolf and go RendeR or ?

Unknown to them, but when I scan I can see villager roles, but not wolves...

[saldana]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

Thanks Olie (though BK and NTN were both listed as having unknown roles?).

I'm down for not voting BK then.

So where does that leave us?

Either we take the "word" of a Wolf and go RendeR or ?

it leaves us looking in other directions...my original inclination this morning was to go back to where I left off before NTN gave us hoops, and that was Antmeister...i still dont like his hit and run vote against PurdueBrad on day one. i realize it was a day one vote, but at least give something like "i used random.org"

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by saldana

PING RENDER....this is werewolf....we all have been and will be lynched when we are totally innocent.....no one here is playing so that they can be sworn at and insulted by someone else over a difference in opinion. i am no choir-boy by anymeans, but have a little bit of respect for the people you are playing with and dial it down a notch.

if you're going to play like an idiot, I'm going to cal you an idiot.

You in this case being whatever player refuses to look at the facts when there are some and goes against all measure of common sense without a valid reason.

I'm not apologizing for anything until I'm proven wrong.

Respect is earned, not offered. I respect people that show some sense of thought when given various pieces of information.

[saldana]

dola, i am also thinking real hard about chief rum...to this point, he has barely said a word, which is contrary to his normal verbose behavior...i know he had the 2 job bit going on, but i thought that was just for monday and tuesday...not sure though because I also think he is too good a player to make such a drastic change in his posting pattern if he is a wolf.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by path12

They contradict because you're using what hoops said in one while saying in the other that you can't trust hoops.

I'm using what hoops SAID in the same reference path, you can't TRUST hoops, so obviously the act that he said he WOULDN"T select BK should be suspicious? no?


yeesh.