Werewolf LXXV - Rise of the Great Old Ones -Students Win!!!!

[hoopsguy]

Alan, I'm clearly not trying to make a losing play today. It obviously would be a losing play if I'm a wolf along with Racer. I respect your villager game, but not THAT MUCH.

I'm only going to offer the explanations on this if I'm sufficiently pressed by the field to do so. I would appreciate it if there was some level of trust extended so we can get a lynch without divulging too much to the wolves. They are already going to have a 2+ man COT to attack tonight when the results come in. I would like to avoid spelling out the roles of the players that will be trusted.

[Alan T]

I'm probably going to suprise Hoopsguy here and mess up his plan.. but he is obviously trying to protect Racer for some reason.

I have seen Hoopsguy in enough games as a wolf that he is reluctantly agreeable enough to take a bullet for the team as he often is an early seer scan, so now that Racer was busted, Hoopsguy takes the gamble that I didn't know who actually failed to attack me and tries to protect Racer by supposedly outing me. So I'm not going after Hoopsguy with today's vote obviously there is some reason he doesn't want Racer to die before him.

Vote Racer

[Telle]

So I'm guessing this is a little more complicated than my assumption that you're the seer? Then yeah, keep the details to yourself.

Although.. what if Alan is an important villager role and the wolves have a seer and found out?

I'll withhold my vote until more people chime in today.. but most likely my vote will be on Alan.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Alan T

But this logic doesn't hold up at all Hoops. If I am bad and you are good as you supposedly suggest then by my outing Racer's attack on me last night you know that I already know he did that, then suddenly with your "reveal" you know that I am on to both of you. So why try to hide that, since if I am bad, I already would know of the tie?

The least you could do is come up with some story to present to the group to how this tie between you and Racer exists. Or are we to believe that you are the seer with some magical brother connection to Racer who also has a night kill power the same night that there magically is no night kill?

For whatever it is worth, I am a student of the Entomology field.. but I don't really have any huge reason to fight a lynch today as either today we lynch Hoops or my death leads to two wolves dying tommorrow.. I'm more just looking forward to the explanation of how you magically know each other...


Or did you just assume that I wouldn't have known it was Racer who attacked me and took a gamble on it?

Why would he do that? If they're both wolves, and hoops knew something was up, and Racer made the attack, why wouldn't they just have Racer make the claim?

[hoopsguy]

So far the people who have been in the thead but not followed with a vote are Jets, Telle, and Olie.

If you aren't going to take my word on this, then you should at least engage me in conversation to help make a decision. This one is pretty straight-forward. Either I'm providing 100% accurate information on Alan, or I'm not. Thus you should either vote with me or against me. There is no middle ground, although I'm guessing Alan would be just fine with someone finding middle ground.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Why would he do that? If they're both wolves, and hoops knew something was up, and Racer made the attack, why wouldn't they just have Racer make the claim?

Thats exactly the reason I am voting for Racer and not Hoops after his false claim. I would love the answer to that question as well. I am assuming they didn't realize that I would know who attacked me.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

So far the people who have been in the thead but not followed with a vote are Jets, Telle, and Olie.

If you aren't going to take my word on this, then you should at least engage me in conversation to help make a decision. This one is pretty straight-forward. Either I'm providing 100% accurate information on Alan, or I'm not. Thus you should either vote with me or against me. There is no middle ground, although I'm guessing Alan would be just fine with someone finding middle ground.

See, I disagree fully.. That is exactly what you want people to do.. either vote for me or vote for you.. I don't know why you are protecting Racer, but I would encourage people to either vote for me or vote for Racer.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Telle

So I'm guessing this is a little more complicated than my assumption that you're the seer? Then yeah, keep the details to yourself.

Although.. what if Alan is an important villager role and the wolves have a seer and found out?

I'll withhold my vote until more people chime in today.. but most likely my vote will be on Alan.

This is not the simplest explanation.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

So far the people who have been in the thead but not followed with a vote are Jets, Telle, and Olie.

If you aren't going to take my word on this, then you should at least engage me in conversation to help make a decision. This one is pretty straight-forward. Either I'm providing 100% accurate information on Alan, or I'm not. Thus you should either vote with me or against me. There is no middle ground, although I'm guessing Alan would be just fine with someone finding middle ground.

And Alan is voting Racer, looking to establish a middle ground.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Alan T

See, I disagree fully.. That is exactly what you want people to do.. either vote for me or vote for you.. I don't know why you are protecting Racer, but I would encourage people to either vote for me or vote for Racer.

Yes, I want people to vote for the person I know is a wolf. If they don't believe I have this knowledge they should vote for me.

I've been on your end of this a few times, and muddying the waters is an optimal strategy. I'm doing my best to not allow you that option.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

This is not the simplest explanation.

Since when is WW simple?

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Thats exactly the reason I am voting for Racer and not Hoops after his false claim. I would love the answer to that question as well. I am assuming they didn't realize that I would know who attacked me.

This really comes off like you're trying to confuse the issue. You're looking for explanations for something that only you can verify actually happened. Racer, hoops -- should be the same to you if what you say is true. Do you think there's something about your role that would make it so that two wolves would be interested in sacrificing themselves to get rid of it?

[hoopsguy]

Telle, often the simplest answer is the right one. Not always, but you have to work fairly hard to come up with an answer of why two wolves would be willing to lay themselves down to get the villager Alan.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

So far the people who have been in the thead but not followed with a vote are Jets, Telle, and Olie.

If you aren't going to take my word on this, then you should at least engage me in conversation to help make a decision. This one is pretty straight-forward. Either I'm providing 100% accurate information on Alan, or I'm not. Thus you should either vote with me or against me. There is no middle ground, although I'm guessing Alan would be just fine with someone finding middle ground.

The problem is that if you are telling the truth, you've already stated that it wouldn't be good for you to divulge more information.. so engaging you in conversation isn't a totally pro-villager move.

But I do agree that it either comes down to you or Alan.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Yes, I want people to vote for the person I know is a wolf. If they don't believe I have this knowledge they should vote for me.

I've been on your end of this a few times, and muddying the waters is an optimal strategy. I'm doing my best to not allow you that option.

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

This really comes off like you're trying to confuse the issue. You're looking for explanations for something that only you can verify actually happened. Racer, hoops -- should be the same to you if what you say is true. Do you think there's something about your role that would make it so that two wolves would be interested in sacrificing themselves to get rid of it?

I'm not sure how i am trying to confuse the issue. I had Racer attack me last night, I outed that attack, Hoopsguy has all but acknowledged they have some tie-together but can't come up with a villager role that would have such huge powers that supposedly he and Racer have.

I guess you have to see things from my perspective, I saw my PM, came in the thread to out Racer and suddenly got floored by Hoopsguy's post which I fully did not expect. I actually don't have any problem if people want to lynch me, it will spell out who to go at the next two days just fine. I'm all about taking a logical approach to things, and I'm willing to sacrifice myself to kill two wolves. I just really am going to love to hear the explanation for this one, and I by no means am someone to give up on trying to help the team until I die.

So if Hoops expects me to quietly go down, then he has another thing coming. I'm going to continue to provide my analysis and thoughts until no longer alive to do so.

[hoopsguy]

Also, I would have let Racer fight this battle if he was here at the time that Day 3 began. But I didn't want Alan to set the tone for the clash that was coming only to have Racer on the defensive when Racer is the villager and Alan is the wolf.

Plus I'm pretty sure the wolves are confused by how this has worked out. So if I gave away some potential later advantage to help us secure a wolf now then I'm OK with that.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by path12

I don't think you need to clarify. We all understand Clapese by now. Don't take that wrong, I <3 Clap.

grrr, its lathumese

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Telle

The problem is that if you are telling the truth, you've already stated that it wouldn't be good for you to divulge more information.. so engaging you in conversation isn't a totally pro-villager move.

But I do agree that it either comes down to you or Alan.

What sort of things would you like to ask him that you feel like you can't?

[hoopsguy]

Alan, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on where to go after you are lynched, revealed a villager, and then see two wolves (me and Racer) lynched next. After those three days are in the books, hopefully with some quick nightfalls to keep the game moving, where do we go after that? Who are the rest of our wolf brothers-in-arms?

I'm all for some good fiction this morning.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Also, I would have let Racer fight this battle if he was here at the time that Day 3 began. But I didn't want Alan to set the tone for the clash that was coming only to have Racer on the defensive when Racer is the villager and Alan is the wolf.

Plus I'm pretty sure the wolves are confused by how this has worked out. So if I gave away some potential later advantage to help us secure a wolf now then I'm OK with that.

Aren't you the one talking about taking the simpler approach to things?

Which is the more simple approach?

1) You and Racer are both wolves, Racer attacked me and failed last night, you (all of the wolves) got the message that it got blocked, and assumed that I didn't know who attacked me which is a normal WW behavior and so you come out with this approach today to try to get rid of me and mess up because I did indeed know Racer attacked me?



or


2) You and Racer are both good guys, who have some mysterious role where one is a seer, and the other has a night kill power, but both can communicate together in the private together.. plus the night you try to attack me and fail there also happens to be no wolf kill that evening..


My suggestion is that #1 is a much simpler choice to believe.. if you are looking for the most simple approach to things.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Telle

The problem is that if you are telling the truth, you've already stated that it wouldn't be good for you to divulge more information.. so engaging you in conversation isn't a totally pro-villager move.

But I do agree that it either comes down to you or Alan.

I would like it if you, and the rest of the villagers, would blindly follow me with votes for Alan. That would be ideal for the villagers/students.

But I also understand that you need to try and figure out if you are making a good decision today. So ask whatever questions you feel you need to ask to make a good vote. If the answer is going to help the wolves more than it will the villagers (in my opinion) I'll tell you that.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

What sort of things would you like to ask him that you feel like you can't?

I'd want more information on how he knows what he claims he knows. Having those dots connected would definitely help show his villager-ness. But he's already stated that it wouldn't be a good idea for him to do so. Sooo.. I'm not sure where that leaves us.

[hoopsguy]

Alan, your argument is predicated on the idea that both Racer and I are wolves. There is no way that I would give up two wolves (including me) to get one villager in a game where we are up 3-0. Potentially more than that if there was a conversion last night.

That is about as simple as I can make it.

[Racer]

An interesting beginning to the day. I don't really give any specifics to what my role is, but I'm going to take Hoopsguy's word on this one.

Vote Alan T

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Alan T

2) You and Racer are both good guys, who have some mysterious role where one is a seer, and the other has a night kill power, but both can communicate together in the private together.. plus the night you try to attack me and fail there also happens to be no wolf kill that evening..

When did hoops say they could PM? It sounds to me like he just scanned Racer N1 and found him good.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Alan, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on where to go after you are lynched, revealed a villager, and then see two wolves (me and Racer) lynched next. After those three days are in the books, hopefully with some quick nightfalls to keep the game moving, where do we go after that? Who are the rest of our wolf brothers-in-arms?

I'm all for some good fiction this morning.

Well, I've been after Racer all weekend, so it is not too suprising that he attacked me last night. You killed me off night 1 last time we played together, and you promised to not kill me night 1 this game. I appreciate that you at least waited until night 2 this time around

I would fully encourage everyone to look at who Racer was trying to save on day 1, the reason that I originally went after him in the first place. There might not be much there, but Racer did expose himself on day 1 with his moves and I would encourage that to be the first place people look. Obviously the next two days though need to be focused on Racer and you.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

When did hoops say they could PM? It sounds to me like he just scanned Racer N1 and found him good.

So then two villagers targeted Alan last night? That seems improbable.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Alan, your argument is predicated on the idea that both Racer and I are wolves. There is no way that I would give up two wolves (including me) to get one villager in a game where we are up 3-0. Potentially more than that if there was a conversion last night.

That is about as simple as I can make it.

But you didn't give up two wolves. I outed one of you. I bet that caught you by suprise.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Telle

I'd want more information on how he knows what he claims he knows. Having those dots connected would definitely help show his villager-ness. But he's already stated that it wouldn't be a good idea for him to do so. Sooo.. I'm not sure where that leaves us.

There's not many ways he would know whether or not someone is a wolf with this kind of certainty. If you feel like you need to know exactly which one of them, hoops is claiming, by all means ask him.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

When did hoops say they could PM? It sounds to me like he just scanned Racer N1 and found him good.

They obviously get the same PM from Schmidty. Hoopsguy already said that he wanted to come out and set the stage before I could about what happened last night since Racer wasn't around. So they obviously have some PM abilities.

That really isn't even a question.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Telle

So then two villagers targeted Alan last night? That seems improbable.

That's if you believe Alan, who only said that after hoops outed him.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Also, I would have let Racer fight this battle if he was here at the time that Day 3 began. But I didn't want Alan to set the tone for the clash that was coming only to have Racer on the defensive when Racer is the villager and Alan is the wolf.

Plus I'm pretty sure the wolves are confused by how this has worked out. So if I gave away some potential later advantage to help us secure a wolf now then I'm OK with that.

This is what I reference in my last post. Hoopsguy obviously gets the results for Racer's night actions. I would love anyone to provide me any kind of villager role that works that way.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

There's not many ways he would know whether or not someone is a wolf with this kind of certainty. If you feel like you need to know exactly which one of them, hoops is claiming, by all means ask him.

At this point, I'm feeling more confidant that hoops is the villager than Alan. So I don't want to ask him to divulge that information yet. But I want to wait to see what other people have to say and if we have any more revelations today before putting my vote in on Alan. And if nobody can further corroborate either story than I'll most likely vote for Alan.

[hoopsguy]

Alan, I won't quote PMs but it doesn't surprise me in the least that you knew about Racer. There was zero surprise for me on that point.

In fact, the knowledge that you (a wolf) knew that Racer (a villager) had "attacked" you last night was what pushed me towards outing you immediately this morning. Because I knew that you could identify him, and almost certainly his role.

But you don't know at all what I'm up to here, and that has to be driving you nuts as you try to spin your way out of this.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

That's if you believe Alan, who only said that after hoops outed him.

Well Hoops's "outing" of me happened pretty much right after lynch results were posted. Kind of hard for me to have predicted he was going to do that post when my only interaction last night was with Racer.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Also, I would have let Racer fight this battle if he was here at the time that Day 3 began. But I didn't want Alan to set the tone for the clash that was coming only to have Racer on the defensive when Racer is the villager and Alan is the wolf.

Plus I'm pretty sure the wolves are confused by how this has worked out. So if I gave away some potential later advantage to help us secure a wolf now then I'm OK with that.

Alan, here's what hoops said. I assume he was saying that, once you accused Racer, he thought about letting Racer fight it himself. Put but yourself in hoops's situation -- he scans Racer good, then you bad. If you go after Racer, doesn't it make sense for hoops to say something?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Alan, I won't quote PMs but it doesn't surprise me in the least that you knew about Racer. There was zero surprise for me on that point.

In fact, the knowledge that you (a wolf) knew that Racer (a villager) had "attacked" you last night was what pushed me towards outing you immediately this morning. Because I knew that you could identify him, and almost certainly his role.

But you don't know at all what I'm up to here, and that has to be driving you nuts as you try to spin your way out of this.

I am pretty sure that I know exactly what is going on, and your lack of response to my guess earlier was pretty much all of the confirmation that I needed. I just am hoping at some point once I die, you give a better explanation than "people need to blindly follow what you say even if it makes no sense!"

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Well Hoops's "outing" of me happened pretty much right after lynch results were posted. Kind of hard for me to have predicted he was going to do that post when my only interaction last night was with Racer.

I'm not saying you should have predicted hoops was going to say that -- I'm saying that once he did, the value of what you have to say drops a ton.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Alan, here's what hoops said. I assume he was saying that, once you accused Racer, he thought about letting Racer fight it himself. Put but yourself in hoops's situation -- he scans Racer good, then you bad. If you go after Racer, doesn't it make sense for hoops to say something?

You might want to read this then:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Alan, I won't quote PMs but it doesn't surprise me in the least that you knew about Racer. There was zero surprise for me on that point.

In fact, the knowledge that you (a wolf) knew that Racer (a villager) had "attacked" you last night was what pushed me towards outing you immediately this morning. Because I knew that you could identify him, and almost certainly his role.

But you don't know at all what I'm up to here, and that has to be driving you nuts as you try to spin your way out of this.

Because you seem way too eager to support hoops without even understanding what his story is

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I'm not saying you should have predicted hoops was going to say that -- I'm saying that once he did, the value of what you have to say drops a ton.

If that is what you want to present to the rest of the class, then so be it. I however think there is alot of value here that I was able to present exactly what happened last night, and left Hoops without a real good explanation for it , or one that he didn't have on the fly, but I am sure he will have an excuse by tommorrow when people come after him.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

So far the people who have been in the thead but not followed with a vote are Jets, Telle, and Olie.

If you aren't going to take my word on this, then you should at least engage me in conversation to help make a decision. This one is pretty straight-forward. Either I'm providing 100% accurate information on Alan, or I'm not. Thus you should either vote with me or against me. There is no middle ground, although I'm guessing Alan would be just fine with someone finding middle ground.

See now this to me sets off my radar. This is a snake oil salesman telling you "buy this or DIE!" you're giving us a black and white scenario and trying your best to convince us that you must be right nwith no actual evidence to back it up.

Originally Posted by Alan T

See, I disagree fully.. That is exactly what you want people to do.. either vote for me or vote for you.. I don't know why you are protecting Racer, but I would encourage people to either vote for me or vote for Racer.

Indeed, he's going over the top here to protect racer. Without any real reasoning as to why we should ignore racer altogether.

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

And Alan is voting Racer, looking to establish a middle ground.

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Yes, I want people to vote for the person I know is a wolf. If they don't believe I have this knowledge they should vote for me.

I've been on your end of this a few times, and muddying the waters is an optimal strategy. I'm doing my best to not allow you that option.

These two statements bother me. We have no evidence with which to trust YOU, and Alan has at least oferred up that he was attacked by racer. While this could indeed be a fake, it seems to me a really bad play because it immediately get alan killed tomorrow if we lynch racer and he turns up good today. Nothing is ever black and white and you trying to make it out that it must be screams *WARNING* to me.

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

What sort of things would you like to ask him that you feel like you can't?

Basically give us some supporting evidence that we could possibly trust at this point, but he's already said he can't or doesn't want to do that, so here we are, standing at the point of another Hoops loaded gun, "trust me or else"

I'm not buying it.



VOTE RACER

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Alan T

You might want to read this then:




Because you seem way too eager to support hoops without even understanding what his story is

My post was a whole one minute after his post. Obviously I hadn't read it when I posted mine.

[hoopsguy]

Pass seems to understand that I'm a pretty rational player, and that I don't make 2-1 trades as a wolf, pretty much ever.

I will make 1-1 trades as a villager when required to do so, but we aren't required to do so if we lynch Alan first. It then comes down to which member of the COT do the wolves go after versus who does the bodyguard protect. But that is getting ahead of myself, since the only person to actually cast a vote so far is Racer who is the only other person who 100% knows without a doubt that Alan is a wolf.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

My post was a whole one minute after his post. Obviously I hadn't read it when I posted mine.

That's ok. I took a step back in between my last post and now to remember that no one other than me and the wolves have any idea of what is going on. It is obvious to me that they share PMs, and such but I can understand where no one else understands where to go.

Really though, I don't know if it matters which way you all vote today. I would love for people to go straight after Racer and hopefully his death would buy me enough trust for a while.. but I fully understand if people feel the need to kill me first to make sure Hoops is lying.

[hoopsguy]

Render, I really wish you were not following Alan's lead. Because you are the other person that I know to be a villager. So I know that you are wrong with good intentions, rather than trying to aid a fellow wolf.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Pass seems to understand that I'm a pretty rational player, and that I don't make 2-1 trades as a wolf, pretty much ever.

I will make 1-1 trades as a villager when required to do so, but we aren't required to do so if we lynch Alan first. It then comes down to which member of the COT do the wolves go after versus who does the bodyguard protect. But that is getting ahead of myself, since the only person to actually cast a vote so far is Racer who is the only other person who 100% knows without a doubt that Alan is a wolf.

See this is where Hoops is actually doing what he originally said I would do and try to muddy the waters some. You didn't make a 2-1 trade off, you thought you were doing a 1-1 trade and I'm pretty sure based on last night's failed attack why you are trying to do so. See, the thing that caught you by suprise is not only did I survive the attack but I also knew my attacker.

So no one be fooled about Hoops's supposed 2 for 1 trade off.. it was me that outed the other wolf, not him.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Alan T

That's ok. I took a step back in between my last post and now to remember that no one other than me and the wolves have any idea of what is going on. It is obvious to me that they share PMs, and such but I can understand where no one else understands where to go.

Really though, I don't know if it matters which way you all vote today. I would love for people to go straight after Racer and hopefully his death would buy me enough trust for a while.. but I fully understand if people feel the need to kill me first to make sure Hoops is lying.

Yep. The two of you seem to know a TON more about this game than I do, so I'm going to let you two hash it out, and I'll just decide at the end.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Yep. The two of you seem to know a TON more about this game than I do, so I'm going to let you two hash it out, and I'll just decide at the end.

There really isn't a ton for Hoops and I to hash out. We both know exactly what happened last night. Any uncertainty that Hoops is presenting is pretty much just for show. He took a gamble and messed up is all there is to it.

Now it is just a game of who is the better salesperson trying to get everyone to believe their story.

[hoopsguy]

Render, when Alan says he was "attacked" by Racer it means that the seer (Racer) scanned Alan.

Racer is the seer. If you lynch him then Post #2 (or whatever it is will show "Psychic" next to his name. And you will be sad that you allowed a wolf (Alan), who was caught by TWO villagers, to manipulate you into a bad vote today.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Alan T

There really isn't a ton for Hoops and I to hash out. We both know exactly what happened last night. Any uncertainty that Hoops is presenting is pretty much just for show. He took a gamble and messed up is all there is to it.

Now it is just a game of who is the better salesperson trying to get everyone to believe their story.

I guess you guys could tell people what you know. But, yeah, as a simple plebe, that might be too crazy of an idea.