NFL Week 1 Discussion Thread - Revis signs, HBO rejoices

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

2009, Giants vs. Chargers

New York Giants at 00:53
1-10-NYG10	(:53) (Shotgun) E.Manning pass short right to A.Bradshaw to NYG 18 for 8 yards (J.Cesaire, S.Cooper).
2-2-NYG18	(:32) (No Huddle, Shotgun) E.Manning pass incomplete short left to H.Nicks [K.Ellison].
3-2-NYG18	(:25) A.Bradshaw right end to NYG 18 for no gain (S.Cooper, S.Gregory).
4-2-NYG18	(:20) J.Feagles punts 37 yards to SD 45, Center-Z.DeOssie, out of bounds.

[Chubby]

somehow I doubt Lathum is going to post the 30 games where Eli sucked and threw picks at the end of the game to ensure the loss

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by Lathum

but people who discount him and refuse to admit he is a top QB in the league who does a lot of things well just don't watch him much.

Which was EXACTLY what I said.

[wade moore]

So you cherry-picked 3 games?

Hard to find 4th quarter comeback stats, but in this article (written a year ago):

Quarterbacks and fourth quarter comebacks, Part II » Pro-football-reference.com blog » Blog Archive

QB Reported Actual
John Elway 47 34
Brett Favre 42 27
Dan Marino 37 36
Peyton Manning 37 28
Drew Bledsoe 32 24
Joe Montana 31 31
Johnny Unitas 31 34
Tom Brady 28 20
Roger Staubach 23 15
Ben Roethlisberger 19 15
Chad Pennington 7 7
Jay Cutler 7 5


I don't see Eli anywhere on this list with the others that you mentioned.

I'm not saying that Eli might not be above average, but he does not, at this point, belong in the class of Peyton, Brady, and Brees.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Lathum

dola- I realize that was annoying, but so are the Eli haters. I will fuiiy admit he doesn't have the raw talent of his brother, Brady, Rivers, and others, but people who discount him and refuse to admit he is a top QB in the league who does a lot of things well just don't watch him much.

No see, we DO watch him and realize he's not a top QB. We just don't have the homer glasses on like you do

[wade moore]

stupid table, gonna try to clean it up.

[Lathum]

You can find 2 minute drills from every QB in the league where they didn't get it done.

But hey, lets just discount the fact that 2/3 examples I used were a divisonal playoff series and a superbowl, they mean a lot less than a week 9 game against the Chargers.

[Lathum]

Lets say I told you that your team could draft a QB and in his full time as a starter your team would go 50-31, make the playoffs 4 of his first five seasons, win a superbowl, and have this QB be the MVP of said superbowl would you sign up for it?

[Jughead Spock]

He's EASILY in the top 25 of the QBs today. Maybe even 20.

[Lathum]

dola- and before all the "QB is only one position" crap starts tell me the last team to win one who didn't have an elite QB ( don't count the Giants), you need a top QB to win a superbowl. Watching the Jets last night should be a pretty strong indicator of that.

[wade moore]

According to Pro-Football Reference:

Peyton - 35 4Q comebacks, 44 game-winning drives (192 Games - 61 Losses)
Brady - 21 4Q, 29 GWDs (129 Games - 30 Losses)
Brees - 12 4Q, 20 GWDs (122 Games - 53 Losses)
Eli - 13 4Q, 16 GWDs (89 Games, 37 Losses)
Roethlisberger - 17 4Q, 21 GWDs (87 Games -26 Losses)

So, I'd actually argue Eli has been better than Brees based on assuming the number of opportunities.. but Peyton, Brady, and Big Ben are a clear class above.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Lets say I told you that your team could draft a QB and in his full time as a starter your team would go 50-31, make the playoffs 4 of his first five seasons, win a superbowl, and have this QB be the MVP of said superbowl would you sign up for it?

The only reason he got SB MVP was they weren't going to give it to the defense which is who should have gotten it. The Giants have won despite Eli, not because of him.

[Lathum]

double dola- I have always been very upfront about being a homer, and probably am exaggerating Elis worth, but what more does he have to do? He wins games, puts up solid numbers, is a great team leader, limits mistakes, and takes over games when he needs to.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Lathum

dola- and before all the "QB is only one position" crap starts tell me the last team to win one who didn't have an elite QB ( don't count the Giants), you need a top QB to win a superbowl. Watching the Jets last night should be a pretty strong indicator of that.

The Jets also played a great defense.

Trent Dilfer says hi and the Ravens/Giants comparisons are pretty good (great D, crap QB, running game)

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Lathum

double dola- I have always been very upfront about being a homer, and probably am exaggerating Elis worth, but what more does he have to do? He wins games, puts up solid numbers, is a great team leader, limits mistakes, and takes over games when he needs to.

Limits mistakes? He threw 3 picks!

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by wade moore

According to Pro-Football Reference:

Peyton - 35 4Q comebacks, 44 game-winning drives (192 Games - 61 Losses)
Brady - 21 4Q, 29 GWDs (129 Games - 30 Losses)
Brees - 12 4Q, 20 GWDs (122 Games - 53 Losses)
Eli - 13 4Q, 16 GWDs (89 Games, 37 Losses)
Roethlisberger - 17 4Q, 21 GWDs (87 Games -26 Losses)

So, I'd actually argue Eli has been better than Brees based on assuming the number of opportunities.. but Peyton, Brady, and Big Ben are a clear class above.

And I never said he wasn't, or said he was better than those guys, I said he belongs in the same breath as them.

I would be insane to come in here and say he is better than those guys, but if I need a guy in the last 2 minutes I am as comfortable with Eli as anyone else.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Limits mistakes? He threw 3 picks!

Did you watch any of the game? Any of it?

Not one of those picks were his fault. all three of them went off the receivers hands, but A for effort.

[RedKingGold]

Donovan McNabb will finish with a better career than Eli.

There, I said it.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Lathum

And I never said he wasn't, or said he was better than those guys, I said he belongs in the same breath as them.

I would be insane to come in here and say he is better than those guys, but if I need a guy in the last 2 minutes I am as comfortable with Eli as anyone else.

I should have thrown Rivers in..

Rivers - 11 4Q, 14 GWDs(68 Games - 18 Losses)


Your statement was that the guys you'd "rather" have than Rivers are Peyton, Brady, Brees, Eli...

Based on the stats (and sorry I left out Rivers) I think Rivers fits in the class of Brady, Big Ben and Peyton.

So, I'd say the only people I'd rather have, potentially, than Rivers are those 3. I would not rather have Eli.

That's the point Ronnie Dobbs was making with his funny "which one of these things is not like the others" comment. Eli is good, but he certainly does not fit into that class when discussing comebacks.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Chubby

The Jets also played a great defense.

Trent Dilfer says hi and the Ravens/Giants comparisons are pretty good (great D, crap QB, running game)

Originally Posted by Chubby

Limits mistakes? He threw 3 picks!

I love a good discussion as the next guy, but these 2 comment stink.

Dilfer did nothing 12/25- 153 yards.

Eli went 19/34 for 255 yards, including the game winning drive under 2 minutes.

Honestly, you want to disagree with me then fine, but to call Eli crap means you know little to nothing about NFL football.

[Lathum]

I would rank

Big Ben
Eli
Rivers

If I was ranking them 3. I know most will disagree, but I think you have to factor in playoffs. Eli and Big Ben have gotten it done in the post season, the Chargers seem to fold every playoff. And yes, I realize it isn't just the QB, there are many other factors involves, but you are the QB, most important position on the field, you need to step it up and get it done. Until Rivers does that I refuse to rank him above Eli, who has stepped it up.

[Jughead Spock]

Eli scares nobody. You don't gameplan for Eli.

He does a nice job of taking advantage of that, but I guarantee every defensive coordinator's approach to the Giants is 'make Eli beat us'.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I love a good discussion as the next guy, but these 2 comment stink.

Dilfer did nothing 12/25- 153 yards.

Eli went 19/34 for 255 yards, including the game winning drive under 2 minutes.

Honestly, you want to disagree with me then fine, but to call Eli crap means you know little to nothing about NFL football.

You are nothing but a homer, plain and simple.

Eli is not a top QB in today's NFL or tomorrow's NFL or yesterday's NFL.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Jughead Spock

Eli scares nobody. You don't gameplan for Eli.

He does a nice job of taking advantage of that, but I guarantee every defensive coordinator's approach to the Giants is 'make Eli beat us'.

Earlier in his career I would agree with you, but the dude has a 50-31 record as a starter, he had beaten plenty of people.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I would rank

Big Ben
Eli
Rivers

If I was ranking them 3. I know most will disagree, but I think you have to factor in playoffs. Eli and Big Ben have gotten it done in the post season, the Chargers seem to fold every playoff. And yes, I realize it isn't just the QB, there are many other factors involves, but you are the QB, most important position on the field, you need to step it up and get it done. Until Rivers does that I refuse to rank him above Eli, who has stepped it up.

The defense and Tyree stepped up. Tyree made that drive possible, not Eli's shitty throw

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Chubby

You are nothing but a homer, plain and simple.

Eli is not a top QB in today's NFL or tomorrow's NFL or yesterday's NFL.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you should back them up with facts, and you still didn't answer my question, did you watch and of the Giants game on Sunday or did you just run to ESPN and look up the box score?

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I would rank

Big Ben
Eli
Rivers

If I was ranking them 3. I know most will disagree, but I think you have to factor in playoffs. Eli and Big Ben have gotten it done in the post season, the Chargers seem to fold every playoff. And yes, I realize it isn't just the QB, there are many other factors involves, but you are the QB, most important position on the field, you need to step it up and get it done. Until Rivers does that I refuse to rank him above Eli, who has stepped it up.

Lathum...

Take off your homer glasses for a second.

The discussion was around which QB you would have rather had last night to try and score on the game winning drive at the end of the game.

How can you look at the stats and claim Eli is ahead of Rivers? Eli is just simply not in the same class, he's not. Unfortunately there's no stat for "failed comebacks", but given the higher opportunities for a comeback at a high level (read: losses), Eli should have a lot more 4Q comebacks than Rivers does.

Let me break it down this way:

Eli - 13 4Q Comebacks + 37 Losses = 50 Times the team was losing in the 4th Quarter (granting that some could have been big deficits)
Rivers - 11 4Q Comebacks + 18 Losses = 29 Times the team was losing in the 4th Quarter (granting that some could have been big deficits)

So, Rivers has won 37% of the games in which his team was trailing in the 4Q.

Eli has won 26% of the games in which his team was trailing in the 4Q.


You can make whatever arguments about whether Eli is a better overall QB than Rivers because he happened to win some playoff games, but in this specific instance you're just wrong.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Chubby

The defense and Tyree stepped up. Tyree made that drive possible, not Eli's shitty throw

You continue to lose credibility with me. Go watch the play, Eli does a pretty amazing job of keeping the play alive and getting away from immense pressure.

[Jughead Spock]

There's that too. Sometimes there's a reason a QB has so many 4th quarter comeback attempts. As great as Elway was (and I say that through gritted teeth), he put himself behind the 8-ball a lot of those times. Same with Favre.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Earlier in his career I would agree with you, but the dude has a 50-31 record as a starter, he had beaten plenty of people.

FWIW, he's 50-37.

[Lathum]

I'll concede to your numbers argument Wade, however, like I said, I factor in getting it done in the playoffs. In a one game scenario based on numbers, yes, Rivers statistically is better.

If I want to win titles I'll take Eli.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Lathum

You continue to lose credibility with me. Go watch the play, Eli does a pretty amazing job of keeping the play alive and getting away from immense pressure.

and he threw a shitty ball, and got bailed out by an alltime great catch. Tyree made the play, not Eli's scrambling and shitty pass.

[Jughead Spock]

Originally Posted by Lathum

You continue to lose credibility with me. Go watch the play, Eli does a pretty amazing job of keeping the play alive and getting away from immense pressure.

Credit where credit is due, that was an amazing play from start to finish, both Eli & Tyree.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by wade moore

FWIW, he's 50-37.

You are correct, I starter counting his first full season as a starter, starting 2005. I didn't factor in 2004 when he came in midway through the season.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by Lathum

If I want to win title I'll take Eli.

Fixed.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I'll concede to your numbers argument Wade, however, like I said, I factor in getting it done in the playoffs. In a one game scenario based on numbers, yes, Rivers statistically is better.

If I want to win titles I'll take Eli.

Fair enough.

FWIW - I think Eli is in the 2nd Tier of QBs in the league behind Peyton, Brees, Brady (and I think Schaub and Rivers are arguably sneaking into this group as well). Based on what I just said about Rivers, I think Rivers is probably a bit better than Eli, but I'm not going to sit here and try to quantify that argument as I don't think they are THAT far apart.

Eli is not an elite QB, but he's a very good one.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Eli is not an elite QB, but he's a very good one.

Incidentally this is how I feel about it as well. I didn't mean to start a firestorm, just thought grouping him in with the elite QBs was suspect.

[TroyF]

To me, Eli's career has been broken up into two parts. The first four and the last 2 (+1 game) .

2004-2007.

Record 30-25, mainly on the back of the defense and running game. This includes the Super Bowl run. The Giants won 5 times in 2007 when Eli had a QB rating under 70. They won the Super Bowl on the backs of that defensive front four. (the front four should have collectively won the MVP of the Super Bowl)

This was a VERY average QB in the league. You could easily have called him poor if not for the good Super Bowl.

The years 2008, 2009 and 1 game this year.

He's been a different guy. His completion percentage is up, his INT's are down and his yards per attempt is up. He's winning games without a strong running game. He's had to be the focal point when the running game and defense haven't been so good. In short, I think he's now a top 10 QB in the league.

Is he up in the Brady/Manning/Brees class? Oh, hell no. Not even close.

BTW, I'm not sure how to answer your question. If you promise me that when I draft the QB I'll have one of the top defensive and offensive lines in the game, I'll take just about any QB and figure I'll win my share of games that way.

I'm pretty sure that Rivers would have had at least as good of a record as that and probably better.

[wade moore]

Actually, looking at stats..

Rivers and Eli aren't even in the same stratosphere. Sorry, winning a few playoff games which is a team effort does not a QB make.

Look at their career stats, recent season stats, etc:

Eli Manning NFL & AFL Football Statistics | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Philip Rivers NFL & AFL Football Statistics | Pro-Football-Reference.com


Not sure where to find playoff stats, but Rivers is clearly the better QB.

Rivers is 3-4 in the playoffs and Eli is 4-3. Eli has not won a playoff game outside of the 1 season where they had an amazing defense and an amazing running game.

Sorry - The more I look into it, the more I'm convinced you're viewing this with very thick homer glasses.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I'm pretty sure that Rivers would have had at least as good of a record as that and probably better.

One could argue Rivers has more talent around him through his career.

As for Wades argument, I think I probably put to much emphasis on the superbowl winning season, but isn't winning titles the point?

Had the Giants not won the superbowl I would likely agree with most arguments people are making, Chubby excluded.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Fixed.

well played sir.

[DaddyTorgo]

What about Aaron Rodgers?? I might even take Rodgers over Eli.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

What about Aaron Rodgers?? I might even take Rodgers over Eli.

He needs to win a playoff game before he enters the discussion.

Again, I fully admit I put to much emphasis on playoffs, especially winning superbowls.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Lathum

One could argue Rivers has more talent around him through his career.

As for Wades argument, I think I probably put to much emphasis on the superbowl winning season, but isn't winning titles the point?

Had the Giants not won the superbowl I would likely agree with most arguments people are making, Chubby excluded.

Rivers is 46-19 now as a starter. He's 3-4 in the playoffs. The heartbreaking loss was the one to NE in the AFC title game. He played the game with a badly twisted up knee. He shouldn't have even been on the field.

Understand something here, I HATE Rivers. That might sound harsh, but I truly, truly HATE him. He's a punk and I would like nothing more than to see Ray Lewis come unblocked and get a clean shot at his rib cage.

But he's a superior QB to Eli. A far superior QB to Eli. I know you've admitted it, but you are putting far too much importance in the Super Bowl run. That run was fueled by defense, not by Eli. Yes, Eli made some key plays during the run, but without that defensive line, the Giants aren't even in the playoffs that year.

It's nice he got hot during that final stretch, but his collective body of work is average for a QB in this league. If he continues doing what he's done the last two years, he will move into the VERY GOOD range with a shot to get another ring or two. If he falls back to the levels of his first four years, he'll be a vastly overpaid player.

[Swaggs]

I don't know enough about both rosters to make a call on this, but hasn't Rivers had a superior offensive supporting cast with two likely/possible Hall of Famers in LDT and Gates, while Eli had possibly one in Tiki (who is more of a longetivity, than upside candidate)?

[stevew]

Eli is average to above average. He benefits greatly from having his last name.

[JS19]

Originally Posted by Chubby

and he threw a shitty ball, and got bailed out by an alltime great catch. Tyree made the play, not Eli's scrambling and shitty pass.

Not gonna get into the whole "elite QB discussion" and "how good is Eli?" part... but "not Eli's scrambling and shitty pass?", seriously? Besides scrambling out of that mess, when he finally got free, he still had 2-3 Patriots charging right at him ready to rip his head off, and he still manages to throw a fairly accurate 40 yd pass down the field. This is just an "I hate Eli" kind of comment.

[JediKooter]

TroyF: How is Rivers a punk? Oh wait, just saw where you're from...never mind. He called the interception machine a baby and Rivers is a punk, that's interesting though. I must have missed some blind side cheap hit that he put on someone or stomped on someones head. He is the furthest thing from a punk.

I see all these questions about Rivers from people who probably only see the 15 second high lights on ESPN. You watch every snap (for the most part), like I have, he has taken over the last 5 years and he is clearly one of the best QBs in the league. He doesn't panic (though he does get frustrated), makes good decisions, has a great arm, can't really run, isn't afraid to stay in the pocket, knows when to get out of the pocket and most importantly is a leader with confidence.

Does he make mistakes? Yup, just like every other great QB to ever play the game. If you want to base a QBs merits strictly on Super Bowl wins, then you actually have an argument. If you want to base it on everything else besides Championships, he clearly is near the top. His is an MVP caliber QB, hands down.

There's QBs that, without a doubt, you want running your offense:
Brady
P. Manning
Rivers
Brees

Then there's QBs you'd want if those 4 weren't available:
Ben "The Rapist"
Favre
McNabb
Rodgers
E. Manning

After that, it's pretty much hit or miss with whoever (unless I'm forgetting someone & just too early in their career to tell yet) you get unless they are just so bad that you only have them because you are desperate.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

I don't know enough about both rosters to make a call on this, but hasn't Rivers had a superior offensive supporting cast with two likely/possible Hall of Famers in LDT and Gates, while Eli had possibly one in Tiki (who is more of a longetivity, than upside candidate)?

The Chargers have never had the OLine the Giants have had and their D has been solid, but I don't think it's ever had a grouping of games as dominant as that '07 Giants D. But I think the talent has been better on Rivers end. Still, I think he's a better QB.

[TroyF]

Jenkins is out for the year.