2015 NBA Offseason Thread

[Groundhog]

Funny as the "Cuban Miss Out Crisis" has been to follow today... still a pretty shitty thing for DeAndre to do - especially ignoring the Mavs after agreeing on a deal.

TBH though I think the Mavs probably dodged a bullet. DJ wasn't putting them over the top, especially without a good PG. There's no way in hell he's turning into a 20-20 player unless they figure out a way to get CP3 to average 10 alley-oop passes a game.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

I liken their situation to the Edmonton Oilers. In 2011 with the #1 overall pick they took Nuggett-Hopkins. In 2014 with the #3 pick they took Draisaitl. Then this year they took a 3rd center with a top 3 pick by taking McDavid with the #1 overall pick. They haven't had a winning season in 6 years and haven't been to the playoffs since 05.

You can't keep stacking potential in the same position and they can't get out of the situation as the top player on the board will again be a big man. Free agency will destroy them because everyone will be keeping their players with all the money from the TV deal so I don't see a way out of there situation.

So wait, your argument is that Edmonton shouldn't have drafted McDavid because they already had a couple centers??? If Anthony Davis or Bill Russell part 2 is available next year the 76ers should pass and draft a guard? Okay. Shit, Edmonton (or the Timberwolves) are pretty much proof that if you stay terrible long enough you'll luck into a true franchise player.

Other people are being nearly as egregious in this thread. The Celtics would trade Marcus Smart for Nerlens Noel in a heartbeat. The rumored Smart/#16/#28 for Noel/#3 offer was a joke because it was such a hilarious lowball from our end (to the point I'm pretty sure we actually included a Nets pick or two in that deal, which just wasn't conveyed through sources because the deal still wasn't close to happening.) I'm 98% sure we'd trade Smart for Embiid straight up, but we would ask to look at medicals first.

I mean, people really wouldn't trade Jordan Clarkson for Joel Embiid? If Jordan Clarkson's grandmother was the Lakers GM she'd take that offer in a heartbeat.

[nol]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Funny as the "Cuban Miss Out Crisis" has been to follow today... still a pretty shitty thing for DeAndre to do - especially ignoring the Mavs after agreeing on a deal.

Dallas fans have definitely earned the right to boo the hell out of DeAndre/the Clippers, but when we're measuring transgressions, let's just say I'm interested in what the fallout will be from Mark Cuban's agent apparently going against his significantly less wealthy client's best interests to "strongly persuade" Jordan to sign with Cuban's team in the first place.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Arles

Lin just signed with Charlotte for 2 years and $4 mil. Throw in DJ appearing to return and Dallas had a bad day. Boston has to be pretty excited (as do the teams sitting 6-9 in the west)

Yes, but only to an extent. The Mavs (and Nets) are in that position where an owner who doesn't care about financial losses can trade for enough overpriced but still useful veterans (think Thaddeus Young last year) that they'll almost certainly end up in that 10-16 range. So yes, still good (and every extra ping-pong ball counts), but not like Dallas will really fall off. Same reason why those Nets picks aren't really that valuable in the trade market.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by nol

Dallas fans have definitely earned the right to boo the hell out of DeAndre/the Clippers, but when we're measuring transgressions, let's just say I'm interested in what the fallout will be from Mark Cuban's agent apparently going against his significantly less wealthy client's best interests to "strongly persuade" Jordan to sign with Cuban's team in the first place.

So we hear... I'd believe that DJ wasn't involved much in the process, but that's on him.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by nol

Dallas fans have definitely earned the right to boo the hell out of DeAndre/the Clippers, but when we're measuring transgressions, let's just say I'm interested in what the fallout will be from Mark Cuban's agent apparently going against his significantly less wealthy client's best interests to "strongly persuade" Jordan to sign with Cuban's team in the first place.

Jordan isn't a child. He's a grown man who can make his own decisions.

[nol]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Jordan isn't a child. He's a grown man who can make his own decisions.

Right you are. He can and he did without breaking any rules, and he will deservedly get flak for it because it was morally dubious to go back on his word. I'm sure he also considered this reaction when deciding between the Clippers and the Mavericks.

It will be interesting to see if Dan Fegan, another grown man who in the best-case scenario did a bad enough job as a sports agent that his client ultimately made a big free-agent decision without him and in the worst-case scenario engaged in some pretty serious tampering (for comparison's sake, Mark Cuban got fined $100k in 2010 because someone asked him about LeBron and he said "If he's available, we'll try to get him in a sign and trade"), gets some flak as well.

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I'm 98% sure we'd trade Smart for Embiid straight up, but we would ask to look at medicals first.

If it were Vonleh, Kanter, Schroder, and Len, those teams wouldn't even look at the medicals. Once you get to the next tier of guys like Smart, Porzingis, and Hezonja, the bar is set pretty low for how long Embiid would have to play and remain healthy for teams to trade those guys straight up for him - would it be any longer than a month? The preseason?

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Yes, but only to an extent. The Mavs (and Nets) are in that position where an owner who doesn't care about financial losses can trade for enough overpriced but still useful veterans (think Thaddeus Young last year) that they'll almost certainly end up in that 10-16 range. So yes, still good (and every extra ping-pong ball counts), but not like Dallas will really fall off. Same reason why those Nets picks aren't really that valuable in the trade market.

There are a lot of dominoes in play where the Mavs might now try to S&T Hibbert with a better offer than the Lakers and stuff along those lines, but then again:

Mark Cuban admitted this was a DeAndre or doom summer. Mavs would have gone in tank mode if they struck out.

— Tim MacMahon (@espn_macmahon) July 3, 2015

[stevew]

Wow, Jordan is a piece of shit.

[RainMaker]

The problem with any Embiid trade is that if he is being shopped, it's because his injury is a concern. It was like when his name was floated around during the deadline last season and everyone knew something was up with his foot.

[nol]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The problem with any Embiid trade is that if he is being shopped, it's because his injury is a concern. It was like when his name was floated around during the deadline last season and everyone knew something was up with his foot.

In this case, trade value is being used as a proxy for the consensus on how good the players are likely to become. It's better than discarding how much all these players have been scouted and analyzed over the past few years to say that Noah Vonleh is infinity times better as a prospect because he averaged 3 points a game last season to Embiid's 0.

Embiid is the least likely of the three big guys to actually be traded because he's either healthy and the best of the three (definitely the most highly-regarded prospect since Davis going in, and Davis was the best since Durant/Oden) or just never plays and is worth nothing. But in the meantime, it's pretty telling that teams with recent top-5 picks who look like very solid building blocks going forward would at least do their due dilligence on Embiid's injuries if they were offered him today when an offer of Payton or Schroder for someone like Porzingis would be laughed at.

Even if you were to put a 10-15 percent chance on him being healthy, Embiid still has a higher likelihood of being an All-Star caliber player than a lot of pretty nice young players who I enjoy watching like Kidd-Gilchrist.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

TBH though I think the Mavs probably dodged a bullet. DJ wasn't putting them over the top, especially without a good PG.

They still signed Matthews on a big deal that was likely connected to Jordan. Cuban explicitly explained that had they not gotten Jordan, they would have started the rebuild even with Dirk still playing.

Also, the Mavs have a history of making Pick and Roll Bigs look awesome, no matter the PG. Dirk and Carlisle can do more for a PnR guy than a good PG.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by nol

In this case, trade value is being used as a proxy for the consensus on how good the players are likely to become. It's better than discarding how much all these players have been scouted and analyzed over the past few years to say that Noah Vonleh is infinity times better as a prospect because he averaged 3 points a game last season to Embiid's 0.

Embiid is the least likely of the three big guys to actually be traded because he's either healthy and the best of the three (definitely the most highly-regarded prospect since Davis going in, and Davis was the best since Durant/Oden) or just never plays and is worth nothing. But in the meantime, it's pretty telling that teams with recent top-5 picks who look like very solid building blocks going forward would at least do their due dilligence on Embiid's injuries if they were offered him today when an offer of Payton or Schroder for someone like Porzingis would be laughed at.

Even if you were to put a 10-15 percent chance on him being healthy, Embiid still has a higher likelihood of being an All-Star caliber player than a lot of pretty nice young players who I enjoy watching like Kidd-Gilchrist.

I agree. At this point Philly is all-in on Embiid and has to hope he can be healthy someday. He's got by far the highest upside out of any of those players in that draft.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by nol

If it were Vonleh, Kanter, Schroder, and Len, those teams wouldn't even look at the medicals. Once you get to the next tier of guys like Smart, Porzingis, and Hezonja, the bar is set pretty low for how long Embiid would have to play and remain healthy for teams to trade those guys straight up for him - would it be any longer than a month? The preseason?

I'd go one game, maybe even a quarter. I get why people are terrified of foot injuries to big men, but the opinion of Embiid plummeted after a vague report of a setback. He was never going to play in 2014-15 after being drafted, he hasn't required a 2nd surgery (unlike Kevin Durant), and could very well still be on track for training camp. That 2% just represents the chance the 76ers are hiding something.

There are a lot of dominoes in play where the Mavs might now try to S&T Hibbert with a better offer than the Lakers and stuff along those lines, but then again Cuban was saying about a week ago that the Mavs were probably going to tank if they hadn't gotten DJ.

I think "probably" is stretching it. They still have Dirk, Matthews and Rick Carlisle, an OK foundation for a push at an 8 seed (and a rebuild would only make sense if you trade Nowitzki for younger talent, which is something I'm not sure Cuban is willing to do). However, seeing as the pick is Top 7 protected i have no doubt Cuban would tank hard if they are eliminated with more than a month to go.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by stevew

Wow, Jordan is a piece of shit.

Or he is a cutthroat businessman.

[Groundhog]

Spurs get Ray McCallum from the Kings to replace Cory Joseph for just a 2nd round pick. Very typically Spurs and very typically Kings.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Nothing was signed so he did what was best for his business. Owners do it so can the players.....

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

So wait, your argument is that Edmonton shouldn't have drafted McDavid because they already had a couple centers??? If Anthony Davis or Bill Russell part 2 is available next year the 76ers should pass and draft a guard? Okay. Shit, Edmonton (or the Timberwolves) are pretty much proof that if you stay terrible long enough you'll luck into a true franchise player.

No... I was arguing that they are still far away from the playoffs by drafting the same position with a high pick. Embiid has the same value as the Oilers last #1 pick right now. The Sixers should trade high on Noel now IMO.

Let's use this example. Do you think the Mavs would trade a 1st for Embiid today after what happened last night. Personally, I don't which shows I don't believe Embiid has value right now.

The Celtics might trade Smart because they are stockpiled at guard. (And might be the 76ers best dance partner to get out of this mess).

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

So wait,
I mean, people really wouldn't trade Jordan Clarkson for Joel Embiid? If Jordan Clarkson's grandmother was the Lakers GM she'd take that offer in a heartbeat.

So wait, you are trading Embiid for a guy drafted 46th? You got me there.

[JeeberD]

Yesterday was great for a Rockets fan living in Mavs country. I generally root for the Mavs when their winning doesn't negatively impact the Rockets, and was rooting for them to sign Jordan initially. However, once he "committed" to the Mavs a number of fans I know, as well as local media, became unbearable. They thought they were the best thing since sliced bread and had suddenly become this major free-agent hotspot. The schadenfreude yesterday was delicious...especially seeing Parsons fail.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Apathetic Lurker

Nothing was signed so he did what was best for his business. Owners do it so can the players.....

Of course they can. If Jordan felt that he made a mistake and the best thing for his life was to sign with the Clippers, he has every right to do that. In fact HE MUST DO THAT. It's his life.

But, you can either do this on the up and up and be classy about it or you can be a complete scumbag. Jordan chose the latter. Man up, call Cuban and say you had second thoughts and will be going back to the Clippers. It is an awkward call that will take about 5 minutes out of your life. For the love of God, this guy isn't a child or a 16 year old who doesn't understand how to break up with a girl. He's an adult.

Act like it. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you aren't complete scum if you choose to do it. (See ESPN medical reporting for further examples of this behavior)

To sum up, shame on Jordan. I hope he realizes his mistake someday and apologizes for being a dick. I love him as a player and it won't affect my enjoyment watching him a bit. . . but not calling the Mavericks and telling them was a horrific decision and was wrong on every level.

Just my opinion. . .

[heybrad]

Originally Posted by TroyF

For the love of God, this guy isn't a child or a 16 year old who doesn't understand how to break up with a girl. He's an adult.

Totally agree with everything you said Troy. I quoted that one particular comment because I would playfully suggest that if you have to have your team, coach and owner basically hold you hostage, guard your phone and babysit you, maybe you're not an adult. It's pretty ridiculous. Age is just a number.

And I thought Doc Rivers was some guy who is all about integrity. Wouldn't a little counsel have been in order from someone like Doc to say, 'Cuban's calling, pickup the phone and be done with the Mavs. It's the right thing to do.' I think it's bush league by the entire Clipper organization to just sit there and say, 'Don't answer that call.'

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by heybrad

Totally agree with everything you said Troy. I quoted that one particular comment because I would playfully suggest that if you have to have your team, coach and owner basically hold you hostage, guard your phone and babysit you, maybe you're not an adult. It's pretty ridiculous. Age is just a number.

And I thought Doc Rivers was some guy who is all about integrity. Wouldn't a little counsel have been in order from someone like Doc to say, 'Cuban's calling, pickup the phone and and be done with the Mavs. It's the right thing to do.' I think it's bush league by the entire Clipper organization to just sit there and say, 'Don't answer that call.'

I really, really can't stand Doc and never could. Most of his "moral" high ground garbage is just that. He signed with Sterling knowing exactly what Sterling was. he wanted to coach, he wanted to coach a talented team in a big city and he wanted money. That's why he decided he was going to coach a racists basketball team. Then when the Sterling/Magic comments came out he pretends it matter? Ugh.

I agree with your other point too. . . maybe he isn't a grown up. Pretty sad.

[nol]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Let's use this example. Do you think the Mavs would trade a 1st for Embiid today after what happened last night. Personally, I don't which shows I don't believe Embiid has value right now.

The earliest first they can trade is 2018, so they would do that seven days a week. In fact, for them to even consider not making that trade would mean that the Mavericks are planning on being among the worst teams in basketball for at least this season, next, and the season after that, which is apparently the dumbest plan ever and something only Ponzi schemers do.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by nol

Embiid is the least likely of the three big guys to actually be traded because he's either healthy and the best of the three (definitely the most highly-regarded prospect since Davis going in, and Davis was the best since Durant/Oden) or just never plays and is worth nothing. But in the meantime, it's pretty telling that teams with recent top-5 picks who look like very solid building blocks going forward would at least do their due dilligence on Embiid's injuries if they were offered him today when an offer of Payton or Schroder for someone like Porzingis would be laughed at.

I agree with this statement that if Embiid is back to 100%, his value skyrockets. But, as you say, this makes him virtually untradeable. The sixers are in a "ride or die" situation with Embiid and I doubt we see him reach his potential in the next year or so given the setbacks. So, that leaves Okafor and Noel. I'm guessing Noel would be the most likely dealt, but what player are you getting back for Noel and a pick? Out of the top younger guys, it doesn't make sense for either side to move Dummond or Towns as they are too similar (plus, why trade the potential of Noel for Noel). So, in order to improve the sixers substantially, you would need to somehow get an elite, young PG-SF for Noel and a pick. I can't see their teams moving Wiggins or Giannis from a value standpoint. I also don't see Noel being that interesting to Orlando given their frontcourt setup in regards to a Hezonja trade. So, we are back to looking at project guys like Smart, Schroeder, Peyton, and Exum.

Even if this plan "works perfect" and Philly gets #1 and takes Simmons, Embiid comes back and they can move Noel for a young guard like Smart/Exum... where does a team of Smart/Exum/Peyton-Wroten/FA-Simmons-Okafor-Embiid rank in the East for the next 2-3 years? Looks a lot like what Minnesota is running out there (with a little better frontcourt). Maybe 6th? I guess they can try to land a big time FA at this point, but they have no depth around their guys and I'm not sure a bigtime FA wants to join a bunch of 19-23 year olds and scrubs. And, again, this is if everything goes perfect. Given how Hinkie has completely avoided trades and FA, I just can't see this group making the top 3 in the much weaker east in the next 2-3 years. So, best case, Hinkie has made his fans watch a team tank for 5+ seasons to get a 4-seed in the east. Just seems like a ton of lost opportunity cost and there were better ways to gather more current playing assets over the past 3 seasons - trying more ways than just draft lottery tickets to get future stars. But, time will tell I guess. Either way, this team is going to stink next year and probably the year after that.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by nol

The earliest first they can trade is 2018, so they would do that seven days a week. In fact, for them to even consider not making that trade would mean that the Mavericks are planning on being among the worst teams in basketball for at least this season, next, and the season after that, which is apparently the dumbest plan ever and something only Ponzi schemers do.

You can stink for a season or two. Phoenix did it (.500 in 11/12, won 25 in 12/13 and then back to 48 wins in 13/14), Milwaukee did it (had the 8 seed in 12-13, won 15 in 13-14 and then was a playoff team last year), Hornets (won 46 in 11, 20s in 12 and 13, then started playing better in 14 before making the playoffs this season). But these teams used more than just the draft to improve. They traded for younger, talented pieces. Signed a few vets to help with the development of their young players and now all three are in a position to compete for the playoffs (and even more if they can get lucky on a FA or two). Plus, their fans only had to watch one, maybe 2, crap seasons to get a young, up-and-coming team with a bright future. Philly's fans are going to be dealing with 4 "lost" seasons after 15-16 and they still won't have a team ready to compete. Short of the Knicks and Kings (who trade away half their firsts when they stink) and maybe the T-Wolves (who atleast won 40 games in 13-14), that's almost unheard of in this current NBA.

If Dallas stinks, it will be for maybe 2 seasons, then Cuban will reload and be back in the playoffs. That's how it's done in the NBA. I guess we'll see how this Hinkie plan works, but I don't see too many teams that eager to repeat it given his results so far. For 1-2 seasons, makes sense. For 4+? That's just fan abuse.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Arles

So, in order to improve the sixers substantially, you would need to somehow get an elite, young PG-SF for Noel and a pick.

Why is that the hurdle they need to reach? How many elite, young players like that are there? The #8 pick in last year's draft was just traded in a salary dump. There wasn't anyone drafted after Noel in 2013 who would bring back a return like that until you get down to Giannis.

[Arles]

They need that because Hinkie has shown an inability to bring in legit vets or young players on the rise via FA. So, at this point, his only option to improving is to trade assets for an elite talent or luck out with his lottery ticket draft picks. Not a lot of margin for error there, but we will see how this plays out. I'm dubious that the Sixers will reach (even in 4-5 seasons) the level of success had by Atlanta or the Clippers, let alone Golden State. And that's a lot of misery to bring to your fans when the probable outcome is a 4-seed in the East who never makes a finals. But, maybe his luck will change...

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by heybrad

Totally agree with everything you said Troy. I quoted that one particular comment because I would playfully suggest that if you have to have your team, coach and owner basically hold you hostage, guard your phone and babysit you, maybe you're not an adult. It's pretty ridiculous. Age is just a number.

And I thought Doc Rivers was some guy who is all about integrity. Wouldn't a little counsel have been in order from someone like Doc to say, 'Cuban's calling, pickup the phone and be done with the Mavs. It's the right thing to do.' I think it's bush league by the entire Clipper organization to just sit there and say, 'Don't answer that call.'

I am not sure what Doc Rivers and the Clippers did wrong. DeAndre opened himself for one last meeting. They took it and used every trick they could to get their man. If DeAndre was done with the Clippers, then there is no meeting and he signs a contract with the Mavs. To go back to your first point, if he is an adult then then HE does not need someone to tell him answer the phone. No one is telling a grown man NOT answer his own phone nor is anyone forcing him to call their rival. I am pretty sure he did not call the Clippers when he gave the handshake to the Mavs.

[murrayyyyy]

Not an insult: Sixers could be the new Bucks | Comcast SportsNet Philadelphia

Which one of you guys wrote this? I've never seen a guy who is so excited over 11-2nd round picks coming in from other teams.

"The Sixers are going into year three of the rebuild. Their transformation hasn’t been nearly as swift, but the way the Bucks have reimagined themselves (draft picks, young talent, smart buys in free agency) provides a window into how things could evolve for the Sixers."

So the Bucks got there in a 2 year plan and you think you can get the same plan done in 4-5 years? Well that is something to brag about.

[JPhillips]

I think that's what it boils down to. Hinkie thinks he's smart enough to change the odds, and build a championship dynasty. The likelihood, though, is that he won't change the odds. Most teams, even well built teams, don't win championships. The Rockets have done a lot of good things, but they probably won't win a championship. Same for the Thunder, Bulls, Hawks, Grizzlies and Raptors, to name a few.

The failure won't be not winning a championship, that's the overwhelming likelihood, the failure will be not trying for years and then not winning a championship.

[jbergey22]

This is the first time in maybe 10-12 years there has really been any excitement in the state of Minnesota for the Wolves.

As for Jordan, the issue I have is the Mavs planned around him signing with them. Fine, Dont keep your verbal agreement but let them know ASAP when that verbal agreement is no longer an agreement. Jordan had every right to NOT make a verbal commitment and wait until he was ready. He has every right to do what he wants but he did this in a classless way.

[nol]

Originally Posted by Arles

I agree with this statement that if Embiid is back to 100%, his value skyrockets. But, as you say, this makes him virtually untradeable.

The trade thing is more in reference to the idea that the Sixers have nothing to show for the losing; Noel is a player who, as you say, could return a decent wing player and a pick. Okafor and Embiid (side note: you can guarantee that all these teams have devoted more energy to looking at underlying structural injury risks since Greg Oden, and Embiid checked out just fine in that regard before the draft) have more value than that. That's definitely something.

The sixers are in a "ride or die" situation with Embiid and I doubt we see him reach his potential in the next year or so given the setbacks.

We don't see anyone reach their potential at age 22.

Even if this plan "works perfect" and Philly gets #1 and takes Simmons, Embiid comes back and they can move Noel for a young guard like Smart/Exum... where does a team of Smart/Exum/Peyton-Wroten/FA-Simmons-Okafor-Embiid rank in the East for the next 2-3 years?

Those guys plus whatever they can do with the extra picks? That would be one of the best defensive teams in the league, if not the very best. Probably 2nd or 3rd in the East with an exclusively under-25 roster and the ability to re-sign all their key players as restricted free agents.

Just seems like a ton of lost opportunity cost and there were better ways to gather more current playing assets over the past 3 seasons - trying more ways than just draft lottery tickets to get future stars. But, time will tell I guess. Either way, this team is going to stink next year and probably the year after that.

The opportunity cost thing comes from you throwing out a hypothetical "what if they just ran it back" Sixers roster that A) had exactly one player who was at least average on both the offensive and defensive ends (this player has played in fewer than half the games over the past two seasons) and B) had half of the players mentioned traded for Andrew Bynum the season before Hinkie became GM.

You can stink for a season or two. Phoenix did it (.500 in 11/12, won 25 in 12/13 and then back to 48 wins in 13/14), Milwaukee did it (had the 8 seed in 12-13, won 15 in 13-14 and then was a playoff team last year), Hornets (won 46 in 11, 20s in 12 and 13, then started playing better in 14 before making the playoffs this season). But these teams used more than just the draft to improve. They traded for younger, talented pieces. Signed a few vets to help with the development of their young players and now all three are in a position to compete for the playoffs (and even more if they can get lucky on a FA or two).

OK, if winning 25-35 games now classifies as "stinking" then a ton of teams have done that or worse for 4 or more consecutive seasons. That's been the point all along: if you watch an 18-win team and a 30-win team over the course of a season, they both stink, and the 30-win team that deludes itself and its fans into believing it has a shot to make some noise in the playoffs or whatever is in many ways more depressing to watch than an 18-win team that plays hard and has a lot of flexibility going forward.

For these other teams, you are putting up a big "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner on the rebuilding efforts. If I put the over/under on the combined number of playoff games Phoenix and New Orleans win this season at 4, everyone would take the under. If Milwaukee is eliminated in the first round this year or takes a step back, their trajectory looks less like exponential growth and more like a team that has stayed in the 30-40 win range for the past 10 or so years with the exception of a 17-win blip.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

No... I was arguing that they are still far away from the playoffs by drafting the same position with a high pick. Embiid has the same value as the Oilers last #1 pick right now. The Sixers should trade high on Noel now IMO.

Oilers have a solid chance to make the playoffs this year and will almost certainly be a contender within 3 years because McDavid is that good. If the Sixers had gotten Anthony Davis in this draft no one would be questioning their strategy.

Let's use this example. Do you think the Mavs would trade a 1st for Embiid today after what happened last night. Personally, I don't which shows I don't believe Embiid has value right now.

Yes, absolutely. Granted, due to NBA rules and their trade with the Celtics its not a very valuable 1st, but even in a theoretical world where they could trade their unprotected 2016 pick Cuban would absolutely do it (again, unless a look at the medicals disclose some degenerative injury that hasn't been made public yet.)

The Celtics might trade Smart because they are stockpiled at guard. (And might be the 76ers best dance partner to get out of this mess).

Stop it. The Celtics aren't trading Smart because they have Terry Rozier and Avery Bradley and Isaiah Thomas. They'd trade Smart today if it got them a foundational Superstar, but you don't trade potential future All-NBA players because you have a plethora of average to slightly above-average guards unless you're close to championship contention (or incredibly shortsighted, or bad at evaluating talent.)

The Clarkson thing wasn't you - Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - 2015 NBA Offseason Thread - but to be fair, he's not the only Lakers fan who's someone talked themselves into Jordan Clarkson potentially being a superstar instead of what he is, which is a nice 2nd round pick who's phenomenally valuable while on a cheap contract, that was able to put up numbers because that team was worse than the 76ers post-ASB.

[Danny]

I don't think Clarkson will be a super star but you are selling him short. He was 1st team all rookie and had positive advanced stats. He and wiggins were the two best rookies the second half of the season. He is a potential future all star

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Danny

I don't think Clarkson will be a super star but you are selling him short. He was 1st team all rookie and had positive advanced stats. He and wiggins were the two best rookies the second half of the season. He is a potential future all star

I thought that the conventional wisdom on Clarkson was he was a good player on a bad team but in the long run had limited upside (kind of like MCW).

[nol]

Originally Posted by Danny

I don't think Clarkson will be a super star but you are selling him short. He was 1st team all rookie and had positive advanced stats. He and wiggins were the two best rookies the second half of the season. He is a potential future all star

Trey Burke and Tim Hardaway Jr. were first team all-rookie the year before. Clarkson beat out 2nd team all-rookie members Jusuf Nurkic, Langston Galloway, Marcus Smart, Zach LaVine, and Bojan Bogdanovic.

[Danny]

As I said I don't think he will be a superstar, but has potential to be an excellent defender and excellent fit next to Russell.

[Danny]

Burkes per was 12.6 and hardy ways was 12.7. Clarkson's was 17. He wasn't just some guy chucking up a bunch of shots on a bad team, he was an efficient scorer and played solid defense for a rookie

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Arles

They need that because Hinkie has shown an inability to bring in legit vets or young players on the rise via FA. So, at this point, his only option to improving is to trade assets for an elite talent or luck out with his lottery ticket draft picks. Not a lot of margin for error there, but we will see how this plays out. I'm dubious that the Sixers will reach (even in 4-5 seasons) the level of success had by Atlanta or the Clippers, let alone Golden State. And that's a lot of misery to bring to your fans when the probable outcome is a 4-seed in the East who never makes a finals. But, maybe his luck will change...

You act like Hinkie is philosophically opposed to or completely inept at free agency and trading for players when the truth is he's chosen not to participate. Just like Phoenix or Boston he's searching for that foundational superstar to build a team around - he just looked at teams like SA, OKC, Cleveland, LAC, Atlanta, Washington, Portland (up until 2 weeks ago), New Orleans, now Milwaukee and Minnesota, and sees that a large number of championship contenders or teams with bright futures are built around a foundational player drafted in the top 3 (or 2 of them), so he's maximizing his chances of getting one. If Okafor or Embiid looks like that guy this year he'll start adding some veteran FA's or trading for a couple veterans who are better positional fits.

There's probably a debate to be had over whether being this bad could hurt the development of those players, although I'm on his side that a season under this isn't a problem as long as you have a smart coaching staff that focuses on developing those players. But in the unlikely event that both Okafor and Embiid bust this gives them a shot at a another player like Ben Simmons or Jaylen Brown. Meanwhile they're also stockpiling Saric and a few extra picks in the 10-20 range that might turn into a Klay Thompson, or Dirk Nowitzki, or Paul Pierce, or Kobe Bryant and absolutely loading up on 2nd round picks because it increases their odds of picking the next DeAndre Jordan, Draymond Green, Wes Matthews, Kyle Korver, Goran Dragic, Trevor Ariza, Chandler Parsons, Paul Millsap, Marc Gasol, Manu Ginobili, etc.

Right now it is a ponzi scheme in search of that one player, but as soon as they feel confident they have one the whole strategy will change and you'll see him act like Morey, Ainge, McDonagh etc.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Stop it. The Celtics aren't trading Smart because they have Terry Rozier and Avery Bradley and Isaiah Thomas. They'd trade Smart today if it got them a foundational Superstar, but you don't trade potential future All-NBA players because you have a plethora of average to slightly above-average guards unless you're close to championship contention (or incredibly shortsighted, or bad at evaluating talent.)

But that's what I'm saying with Smart. Ainge needs to pull off a "Harden" type deal to get someone. Let's just say for example the Blazers. Throw Smart and 2 firsts (since you have a ton) to get Lillard. It depends on how tightly you want to hold on to those Nets picks and if you think you are going to be better than the Nets. I know they have 4 1st this year but you also hold the Nets for the next 3 years and that weird 2018 Memphis pick with 97 rules attached to it.

You don't think Portland would do it? They have no incoming picks right now and just 2 picks over the next 3 years (their 17 and 18 first). Hell you could package a shit load of 2nds and Portland has to think about it. Who is going to help Lillard over the next 2 seasons with no pick next year?

I know Ainge wants to go for 2 max guys but he has to at least attempt to bend the Blazers over here. Why assume 2 guys will come to Boston for max money when you can get Lillard now and move Bradley or Thomas later? New York and LA assumed they would have max level guys lined up outside the door and what did it get them?

[nol]

Originally Posted by Danny

Burkes per was 12.6 and hardy ways was 12.7. Clarkson's was 17. He wasn't just some guy chucking up a bunch of shots on a bad team, he was an efficient scorer and played solid defense for a rookie

Point being a player who scores 10 points per game is almost guaranteed to be first team All-Rookie (especially one in a big market - see Landry Fields and Tim Hardaway Jr); it says nothing about their potential to be an All Star, especially when so many top-10 picks were injured. Clarkson was bad at defense by rookie or Laker standards, whichever is worse, and is going from the first option to the 3rd perimeter option.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

But that's what I'm saying with Smart. Ainge needs to pull off a "Harden" type deal to get someone. Let's just say for example the Blazers. Throw Smart and 2 firsts (since you have a ton) to get Lillard. It depends on how tightly you want to hold on to those Nets picks and if you think you are going to be better than the Nets. I know they have 4 1st this year but you also hold the Nets for the next 3 years and that weird 2018 Memphis pick with 97 rules attached to it.

You don't think Portland would do it? They have no incoming picks right now and just 2 picks over the next 3 years (their 17 and 18 first). Hell you could package a shit load of 2nds and Portland has to think about it. Who is going to help Lillard over the next 2 seasons with no pick next year?

I know Ainge wants to go for 2 max guys but he has to at least attempt to bend the Blazers over here. Why assume 2 guys will come to Boston for max money when you can get Lillard now and move Bradley or Thomas later? New York and LA assumed they would have max level guys lined up outside the door and what did it get them?

I disagree that Damian Lillard is a foundational superstar (Zach Lowe makes the point that even with his bad defense, having a PG who can hit pull up 3's off the dribble is huge, but I'm not sold), but you're actually making my point here. If say, OKC wanted Sullinger, Olynyk, and Jae Crowder and 4 #1's for Russell Westbrook we'd absolutely do it regardless of how many other guards we'd have. If NO wanted to trade Anthony Davis to us for Isaiah, Marcus, Avery Bradley, Rozier, James Young, RJ Hunter, Evan Turner and Jae Crowder a.k.a. every perimeter player on our roster we'd do that too.

You worry about fit when signing/ trading for role players, or when you're close to championship contention. You don't worry about positional fit when you can get a superstar or potential superstar.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I think that's what it boils down to. Hinkie thinks he's smart enough to change the odds, and build a championship dynasty. The likelihood, though, is that he won't change the odds. Most teams, even well built teams, don't win championships. The Rockets have done a lot of good things, but they probably won't win a championship. Same for the Thunder, Bulls, Hawks, Grizzlies and Raptors, to name a few.

The failure won't be not winning a championship, that's the overwhelming likelihood, the failure will be not trying for years and then not winning a championship.

That's the point I am trying to make. He could very well have signed/traded for legit players over the last two seasons and still taken Noel, Embid and OKafor. It's not like if they added Ty Lawson, Amir Johnson and some younger upside guys via trade, they would suddenly win 30 games. Then, if one of those guys becomes a legit future starter (a la Middleton for the Bucks or Bledsoe for Phoenix - both acquired in trades), you have one more piece to build on. But just outright stinking and selling off anyone that shows they can play a little for future assets (a la MCW and McDaniels) is a terrible thing to do to your fans. You better become OKC, Golden State or SA in the next two years to even make the ends justifying the means. If instead, 5 years into this tankapalooza, you have finally become Milwaukee, that's pretty pathetic.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I disagree that Damian Lillard is a foundational superstar (Zach Lowe makes the point that even with his bad defense, having a PG who can hit pull up 3's off the dribble is huge, but I'm not sold), but you're actually making my point here. If say, OKC wanted Sullinger, Olynyk, and Jae Crowder and 4 #1's for Russell Westbrook we'd absolutely do it regardless of how many other guards we'd have. If NO wanted to trade Anthony Davis to us for Isaiah, Marcus, Avery Bradley, Rozier, James Young, RJ Hunter, Evan Turner and Jae Crowder a.k.a. every perimeter player on our roster we'd do that too.

You worry about fit when signing/ trading for role players, or when you're close to championship contention. You don't worry about positional fit when you can get a superstar or potential superstar.

Problem is those guys aren't available. Guys like Westbrook, Durant, Davis, Curry, Blake, Harden, Wiggins, Kawhi are pretty much untouchable via trade. The Harden deal is by far the exception and isn't likely to repeat given the cap increases upcoming. The "gather assets and hope for a star in trade" just isn't likely to pay off the next two years because of all the money available. No small market "OKC-style" team is going to be running up against the tax with 2-3 superstars needing to deal one. Free Agency is really the only way to get an elite guy now and you need to have a very attractive situation to get a Durant/Aldridge/Westbrook/Love. Those guys aren't going to leave a top 3 playoff team to go start over in Boston, NY, Philly or LA unless there is a plan with some very nice pieces in place. Honestly, Boston's best bet is to go all out for guys like Cousins and Lillard, who may have some baggage and for that reason might be available.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

This is the first time in maybe 10-12 years there has really been any excitement in the state of Minnesota for the Wolves.

As for Jordan, the issue I have is the Mavs planned around him signing with them. Fine, Dont keep your verbal agreement but let them know ASAP when that verbal agreement is no longer an agreement. Jordan had every right to NOT make a verbal commitment and wait until he was ready. He has every right to do what he wants but he did this in a classless way.

The Mavs stopped going after anyone once he signed. Who knows, maybe they could have gotten in on someone else instead.

Obviously the next two moves by Dallas should be to Max offer Kanter and then Tristan Thompson in some sort of order, just to push up salaries across the board.

[whomario]

Re: Emojigate: I think it´s been pretty established that i care very little about NBA teams in a "long time fan" sort of way, thus have not all that much attachement even to the Mavs other than that i loved to watch the play in the Carlisle/Nowitzki Era. So i am pretty sure i am not writing the following due to being "butt hurt"

The Clippers are making a stellar case for how not to act in the age of social media. What Rivers is spouting today, with no excuse of being "caught up in the moment", is pretty disgusting no matter how you slice it.
What really irks me is that he (like the players involved) apparently has no idea about the ramifications of all this and genuinely seems to find this to be a fun, little annecdote. Like that time Uncle Mikey put that ball of Snow under his nephews pillow or whatever. This is not just a game, it is a business with jobs on the line. And i´m not speaking about Carlisle or Dirk or the like...

Doc said DeAndre's agent should have called Cuban and told him the news. It wasn't up to him to call.

Doc on team meeting at DeAndre's house: "It was a great team building moment. It was fantastic. It was absolutely wonderful."

Doc justified DeAndre not calling Cuban by saying DeAndre didn't call him when he first committed to Dallas.

Doc on staying at DeAndre's house: "It was funny how that was portrayed. I saw Blake put the chair at the door which was hilarious."

Also: Broussard is such a clown, wow. "Multiple Sauces", indeed. I personally am sad that the line between "journalist" and "random guy spouting stuff" has forever been crossed in our time

[whomario]

Originally Posted by stevew

Obviously the next two moves by Dallas should be to Max offer Kanter and then Tristan Thompson in some sort of order, just to push up salaries across the board.

Portland got in on that kind of fun already and are about to force OKC to spent about 40 mio on Enes Kanter next season if they match (contract + heavy into lux tax)

They still have a few expandable players they could try to load off, like Augustin, Novak and Jones.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by stevew

The Mavs stopped going after anyone once he signed. Who knows, maybe they could have gotten in on someone else instead.

Obviously the next two moves by Dallas should be to Max offer Kanter and then Tristan Thompson in some sort of order, just to push up salaries across the board.

Something came across my phone earlier that Kanter signed a 4 yr max earlier toafy i thought.

[stevew]

Ok, didn't see that, he signed with Portland.

BTW, google is now garbage, it's so hard to find info on the Net.

Other move would be for the Mavs to find some Millsap sort of guy and give him a short deal, knowing once they suck they can flip him for expirings and a first or two at the deadline.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Arles

That's the point I am trying to make. He could very well have signed/traded for legit players over the last two seasons and still taken Noel, Embid and OKafor. It's not like if they added Ty Lawson, Amir Johnson and some younger upside guys via trade, they would suddenly win 30 games.

What are you talking about? Adding a Ty Lawson and Amir Johnson would have easily bumped them up near 30 wins. Look at the Celtics roster from the spring - a rotation of Isaiah Thomas, Evan Turner, Jae Crowder, Marcus Smart, Avery Bradley, Brandon Bass, Kelly Olynyk, Tyler Zeller and Jonas Jerebko finished the season on a 24-12 run and made the playoffs. (Meanwhile Phoenix was going 11-23 after trading a sweet pick for a RFA they could've just S&T'd this summer, but keep telling yourself LMA took that meeting with Phoenix because it's a better FA destination for "basketball" reasons.)

Originally Posted by Arles

Problem is those guys aren't available. Guys like Westbrook, Durant, Davis, Curry, Blake, Harden, Wiggins, Kawhi are pretty much untouchable via trade. The Harden deal is by far the exception and isn't likely to repeat given the cap increases upcoming. The "gather assets and hope for a star in trade" just isn't likely to pay off the next two years because of all the money available. No small market "OKC-style" team is going to be running up against the tax with 2-3 superstars needing to deal one. Free Agency is really the only way to get an elite guy now and you need to have a very attractive situation to get a Durant/Aldridge/Westbrook/Love. Those guys aren't going to leave a top 3 playoff team to go start over in Boston, NY, Philly or LA unless there is a plan with some very nice pieces in place. Honestly, Boston's best bet is to go all out for guys like Cousins and Lillard, who may have some baggage and for that reason might be available.

No shit they're not available! We've been throwing everything possible at Kevin Love, DMC, and are now hoping OKC falls apart, Durant leaves and Westbrook demands a trade. That's why our best move would've been to actually tank yet somehow you're outraged at the team next door that actually chose that path.

I love watching our team of gutsy, grit & grind underdogs but I would trade it all in a heartbeat for Saric, Noel, Okafor, Embiid and a top-5 pick next spring. It's embarrassing for the league and why the incentive structure needs to be changed, but the team that punted multiple seasons is in a better position going forward than the one trying.