Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[murrayyyyy]

Did Trips have final say on this Rumble? I'm not sure anything was really done wrong minus MOJO being in a match.

Great weekend as I was sports entertained the entire time

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Mota

That was a pleasant surprise. Although we all know the main event will still be Brock vs. douchebag (ie. Roman Reigns).

I'm constantly astounded as how WWE continuously presents a product where the fans take a steaming dump over it, and they still keep coming back for more.

I'd like to introduce you to B.F. Skinner.

[murrayyyyy]

ʜᴇᴇʟ ʙʏ ɴᴀᴛᴜʀᴇ on Twitter: "Prior to working the Royal Rumble match, the women's competitors pose for a photo during a walkthrough of the match earlier in the day.… https://t.co/u9W10yn8I0"

Picture of the Royal Rumble entrants for the womens version before the match. Pretty safe to say the most history in one pic for womens wrestling.

[RainMaker]

I thought the Rumble was real good. Great mix of spots and surprise entrants. Plus the other matches on the card were good although I kind of hate having the WWE Championship on so early as it seems to lessen the prestige of the title.

My only other gripe is that Shane and Stephanie are the worst parts of the show.

[RainMaker]

Also the NXT show was great the other night too. That main event was incredible (maybe the best NXT match ever?). A part of me thinks they should have pulled the trigger and let Gargano win only to have it taken from him at his first title defense thanks to Ciampa screwing him over. He feels like their Daniel Bryan.

Cole vs Black was really fun. Dream and Ohno was solid. And I like watching the Authors of Pain. Only gripe there is O'Reilly and Fish have been booked so weak in NXT that it didn't make sense having them beat AOP.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I thought the Rumble was real good. Great mix of spots and surprise entrants. Plus the other matches on the card were good although I kind of hate having the WWE Championship on so early as it seems to lessen the prestige of the title.

Where would you put it though? They usually open the show with someone who can get the crowd hyped and those 3 wrestlers/themes had the best shot out of what was left minus Rusev Day having a match. Roode was on the pre-show because MOJO didn't deserve the main show (wish Roode had wrestled an old person who was told the rumble was full). Both tag team matches won't get the crowd hyped anywhere near what Sami's song does.

If they opened with those tag matches the crowd would have been flat for the men's rumble.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The considerably anticipated next episode of "Being The Elite" is up.

Gotta say -- like 'em or not -- they did a fine fuckin job of putting this one together. And if you watch, do NOT bail until the very end.

To have it be coherent, fit the existing NJPW story and actually add context to it, and to do it with a minimal amount of laughs ... well just damn.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The considerably anticipated next episode of "Being The Elite" is up.

Gotta say -- like 'em or not -- they did a fine fuckin job of putting this one together. And if you watch, do NOT bail until the very end.

To have it be coherent, fit the existing NJPW story and actually add context to it, and to do it with a minimal amount of laughs ... well just damn.

I know this is just me bemoaning my personal preference and they're doing fine without catering to me, but if the Bucks could be just a little more serious and a little less spotty, I would love them so much.

[CU Tiger]

For anyone who watched Raw last night.
I had it on as background noise while working on a work project.

The Sasha/Asuka spot where Sasha dove through the ropes and landed awkwardly. That was certainly a botched spot, right? I mean at first I though OMG she just broke her neck...but they replayed it a bunch which they typically avoid with botches.

Thoughts?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I know this is just me bemoaning my personal preference and they're doing fine without catering to me, but if the Bucks could be just a little more serious and a little less spotty, I would love them so much.

There's quite possibly nobody with a longer history of hating on the Jackson bros than me. I hated them from the first couple of appearances they made on NWA television (back when that was a thing) and pretty consistently afterwards.

That said, they've come an awfully long way in that regard. The night two match in Sapporro is a reasonable example. They told a story, with largely proper ring psychology, even came up with one that would play a role in other events later in the night. That's a pretty damned good night's work.

We end up seeing them, I think, in a lot of different situations. They jerk curtains, they have bigger matches up the card, they work 3/4/5 man tags, they serve(d) as Omega's seconds. And we see all those things in both North American and Japan, in very differently positioned & differently structured promotions. Each of those situations calls for a different approach, and sometimes being the crowd lifting entertaining jesters IS the right call. Or the spotmonkeys, because that's what lifts the opponents most. Or whatever is called for in the combination of event,location, opponent, card position. They don't get it exactly right every single time but I feel like they go the right direction more often than not, and maybe don't get credit for that as much as they should.

Me? I'm still waiting for the day @#$%@#$ Osprey sells reliably instead of flippin' around like he's a ballerina having a seizure.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

For anyone who watched Raw last night.
I had it on as background noise while working on a work project.

The Sasha/Asuka spot where Sasha dove through the ropes and landed awkwardly. That was certainly a botched spot, right? I mean at first I though OMG she just broke her neck...but they replayed it a bunch which they typically avoid with botches.

Thoughts?

It was Sasha. She's botched that dive about half a dozen times now. She's awful. She's gonna end up hurting herself or someone else badly. And I'm not even counting the Paige thing against her.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

There's quite possibly nobody with a longer history of hating on the Jackson bros than me. I hated them from the first couple of appearances they made on NWA television (back when that was a thing) and pretty consistently afterwards.

That said, they've come an awfully long way in that regard. The night two match in Sapporro is a reasonable example. They told a story, with largely proper ring psychology, even came up with one that would play a role in other events later in the night. That's a pretty damned good night's work.

We end up seeing them, I think, in a lot of different situations. They jerk curtains, they have bigger matches up the card, they work 3/4/5 man tags, they serve(d) as Omega's seconds. And we see all those things in both North American and Japan, in very differently positioned & differently structured promotions. Each of those situations calls for a different approach, and sometimes being the crowd lifting entertaining jesters IS the right call. Or the spotmonkeys, because that's what lifts the opponents most. Or whatever is called for in the combination of event,location, opponent, card position. They don't get it exactly right every single time but I feel like they go the right direction more often than not, and maybe don't get credit for that as much as they should.

Me? I'm still waiting for the day @#$%@#$ Osprey sells reliably instead of flippin' around like he's a ballerina having a seizure.

I'm the exact opposite in that I like one or two out of 10 of their matches, but I REALLY like those two.

The NYE match lost me about a minute in when they got the heat on the Tempora Boys cause one of em missed a dive that there was no point in doing to begin with (I know, I know), but seriously, it was just like, I'm doing this so they can take over. No fucking psychology at all.

Then one of the rematches, I think it might have been Nick, was in a Sharpshooter and he starts doing the fucking old timey comedy fist in mouth spot as "selling". Totally took me out of the match. I can't watch those two teams work together.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I can't watch those two teams work together.

I have a tough time watching R3k period honestly.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

For anyone who watched Raw last night.
I had it on as background noise while working on a work project.

The Sasha/Asuka spot where Sasha dove through the ropes and landed awkwardly. That was certainly a botched spot, right? I mean at first I though OMG she just broke her neck...but they replayed it a bunch which they typically avoid with botches.

Thoughts?

100% on Sasha. Everyone loves to blame the person she is wrestling but she's too dangerous.

video for those who haven't seen it.

https://streamable.com/0457k

[RainMaker]

Yeah I have a feeling Sasha is not long for the wrestling business the way she goes.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Where would you put it though? They usually open the show with someone who can get the crowd hyped and those 3 wrestlers/themes had the best shot out of what was left minus Rusev Day having a match. Roode was on the pre-show because MOJO didn't deserve the main show (wish Roode had wrestled an old person who was told the rumble was full). Both tag team matches won't get the crowd hyped anywhere near what Sami's song does.

If they opened with those tag matches the crowd would have been flat for the men's rumble.

Did the show really need a WWE title match? Couldn't you have opened with AJ/Roode (or even Shane) vs Owens/Zayn? The two rumbles are the reason people tune in and I think it hurts to just have the WWE Championship as a throwaway match on a card.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Did the show really need a WWE title match? Couldn't you have opened with AJ/Roode (or even Shane) vs Owens/Zayn? The two rumbles are the reason people tune in and I think it hurts to just have the WWE Championship as a throwaway match on a card.

Maybe but it would have left the title off PPV's until March since AJ won it in December as it goes Rumble and then Chamber(RAW). I don't know if it would matter since the Universal Title is every 3 months but I think they felt they had to keep the title visible every PPV with the waste of one on Brock.

Won't know until tonight but it seems like the goal was to plant the seed of Owens/Zayn riff to be paid off @ Mania. (With Zayn telling Owens he's got this for the 10th Rumble spot). They gave Zayn the victory last week over AJ to build on the riff also.

Also a note on Roode's open challenge. Heard it was suppose to be against Adam Cole but they didn't want Cole losing in 7 mins so it got changed to StayHype at the last second. Have they finally learned not to bury NXT talent once they get to the main roster on the men's side finally?

[RainMaker]

Has Cole won a big match in NXT yet? Not sure you can bury a guy who isn't really being pushed hard in NXT.

Here's Sasha:

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Has Cole won a big match in NXT yet? Not sure you can bury a guy who isn't really being pushed hard in NXT.

with an assist from profightdb

Cole is 18-15-2 in NXT

1-0 vs EY (debut)
4-2 vs Roderick (dq loss on TV, 3 house show wins)
0-4 vs McIntyre (triple threat w/Almas, house shows, and a dark match)
0-3 vs Aleister
0-2 vs Almas (triples w/Strong, house shows)
1-0 vs Chad Lail (house show)
0-1 vs Lars Sullivan (dq, house show)

That's 6-12 in singles matches of any kind, so him 12-3-2 in tags
The signature win being his team victory at NXT: War Games

[Mota]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

100% on Sasha. Everyone loves to blame the person she is wrestling but she's too dangerous.

video for those who haven't seen it.

https://streamable.com/0457k

Wow, it was almost like she got negative airtime on that leap. The moment her feet left the mat, her head went straight down. That was pretty scary looking!

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Has Cole won a big match in NXT yet? Not sure you can bury a guy who isn't really being pushed hard

For his age, he has a huge advantage over most on the NXT roster with his mic skills. I'd assume the same for EC3. There is no way either is in NXT more than Ricochet.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Mota

Wow, it was almost like she got negative airtime on that leap. The moment her feet left the mat, her head went straight down. That was pretty scary looking!

I think ahe took off too close to the ropes and pulled up thinking ahe was going to far. Unfortunately she ended up going no where but down. The sound is worse but she hits the led screen with her hand trying to break her fall instead of her neck. Problem is she seems to do this on every move outside of the ring.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

For his age, he has a huge advantage over most on the NXT roster with his mic skills. I'd assume the same for EC3. There is no way either is in NXT more than Ricochet.

But can Ricochet really be bound for anywhere other than 205Live any time soon? And if not, then is that really better than being in NXT?

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

But can Ricochet really be bound for anywhere other than 205Live any time soon? And if not, then is that really better than being in NXT?

I don't see 205 lasting. (I know, they have a GM in Rockstar Spud, woo freakin hoo) I do think there will always be a spot for flippity guys as kids love them and don't care about ring psychology.

I think a lot of things depend on if FOX/UFC breakup is real (UFC looking for a big contract) and FOX decides to sign/buy WWE this year. I'm sure Vince would give a discount to FOX if they would sign the XFL also. I forget what UFC is getting (200M a year?) but that would be a nice raise for WWE.

If they sign with FOX it would probably mean a 2 hr RAW just because most FOX stations have a news program @ 10. Would they make a third "brand"? Sort of a 205Live/AAA baseball mentality? The Return of Saturday Night Main Event? (Was that on FOX?) I mean if they buy it outright then they could produce numerous shows for FS1 and FS2. I swear there is a different UFC show on there every hour when soccer isn't on.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

I don't see 205 lasting. (I know, they have a GM in Rockstar Spud, woo freakin hoo) I do think there will always be a spot for flippity guys as kids love them and don't care about ring psychology.

Is that who they picked? LOL, I mean, that's really my gut reaction to the choice.

If they sign with FOX it would probably mean a 2 hr RAW just because most FOX stations have a news program @ 10. Would they make a third "brand"? Sort of a 205Live/AAA baseball mentality? The Return of Saturday Night Main Event? (Was that on FOX?) I mean if they buy it outright then they could produce numerous shows for FS1 and FS2. I swear there is a different UFC show on there every hour when soccer isn't on.

I'd pretty much guarantee that you won't see broadcast affiliates carrying wrestling even if there is a Fox deal. Sinclair-owned affiliates damn near mutinied against their own ownership to get out of putting it anywhere outside of overnights in virtually every market. And no, the difference isn't between ROH & Raw, the issue was about it being virtually unsellable locally in most markets, the image issues with wrestling fans are very much alive & well.

The hypothetical purchase would be to prop up their various cable outlets, with maybe one or two broadcast specials at the most. Anything beyond that would be completely shocking to me.

edit to add: Making it even more unlikely is the fact that company-owned (O&O) affiliates make up less than 10% of the Fox broadcast affiliates. If Sinclair couldn't convince stations they actually own then Fox ain't gonna have any better luck. All the ratings in the world don't mean shit if you can't sell ads, and local affiliates are just not equipped (psychologically) to do that even with Raw

[RainMaker]

Why don't they just make the cruiserweight division part of the regular show? They have 5 hours of TV a week. They can't fit in a couple good matches and some stories?

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Why don't they just make the cruiserweight division part of the regular show? They have 5 hours of TV a week. They can't fit in a couple good matches and some stories?

Are they exclusive to a brand? They usually have a match on RAW but then have their show after smackdown. Seems like they are the new bathroom break.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Why don't they just make the cruiserweight division part of the regular show? They have 5 hours of TV a week. They can't fit in a couple good matches and some stories?

Because they're struggling to get guys over, err, over there as it is.

They have a fair bit of talent in the division, yet even I can't seem to work up two shits worth of interest in it. Not sure exactly where/how/why it's misfiring but it just feels ... off somehow.

Not sure trying to shove them into either of the top two programs is going to be any better a situation (especially since the matches would likely be too short to let anything other than a spot or two be involved)

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Because they're struggling to get guys over, err, over there as it is.

They have a fair bit of talent in the division, yet even I can't seem to work up two shits worth of interest in it. Not sure exactly where/how/why it's misfiring but it just feels ... off somehow.

Not sure trying to shove them into either of the top two programs is going to be any better a situation (especially since the matches would likely be too short to let anything other than a spot or two be involved)

No one wants to be labeled as a cruiserweight. Neville got tired of it which you can see easily. He was at King of the Ring level and being given matches against Cena only to be put on 205 live. It's where careers go to die.

Ask Tozawa, Kalisto, Rich Swann, Enzo (who thrived there but...), etc. In fact the WWE has announced a 16 man tournament with the title being determined at Mania. They only have 16 cruiserweights on the roster with 2 hurt Dar and Kendrick, Swann is still suspended, Neville is sitting out. So that's 4 of the 16. They had Tyler Bate lose to TJP in the first match and have Strong coming up from NXT to lose to Itami one can assume next week.

Maybe Ricochet isn't in NXT for long.

[Suicane75]

The problem with 205 live is it's just small guys wrestling WWE style. If you tune in expecting to see some iteration of previous generations juniors divisions, you're in for a sad awakening.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

It's where careers go to die.

Only true if you've reached a certain level beyond that.

Ask Tozawa, Kalisto, Rich Swann, Enzo (who thrived there but...)

That certain doesn't apply to Swann, nor to Tozawa (outside of the IWC) and might not realistically apply to Kalisto either (despite his previous push).

That's the thing, there's a somewhat sizable nether region that could include a lot of people these days. Being in 205 isn't really doing any harm to their mainstream audience appeal, though it ain't doing much good for it either. But the guy's alternatives aren't going to be any better from that standpoint.

I think the whole let's-sign-some-cruiserweights was WWE's attempt to give themselves time to figure out what they might be able to do with the guys & the style. 205 is sort of them trying to figure it out. I don't know that they really can or will.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Because they're struggling to get guys over, err, over there as it is.

They have a fair bit of talent in the division, yet even I can't seem to work up two shits worth of interest in it. Not sure exactly where/how/why it's misfiring but it just feels ... off somehow.

Not sure trying to shove them into either of the top two programs is going to be any better a situation (especially since the matches would likely be too short to let anything other than a spot or two be involved)

Remember the Cruiserweight tournament, when they marketed it as something completely different, and the talent really got a chance to shine.

Then they make this 205 Live show, and it's exactly like WWE. If you take away the thing that makes these guys unique, they are just generic small guys doing flippy flippy.

Also, some of these guys weren't even at the top of the cards in their respective minor leagues. So signing 20'ish guys at once just because of their size is probably not the best idea. Even the guys who are super talented get marginalized by that. Especially in WWE and WCW, there has been years and years of training by their management to us that the cruiserweights are bathroom break material. So eventually the fans believe it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

Remember the Cruiserweight tournament, when they marketed it as something completely different, and the talent really got a chance to shine. Then they make this 205 Live show, and it's exactly like WWE. f you take away the thing that makes these guys unique, they are just generic small guys doing flippy flippy.

There is a fair bit of difference. But I'm not sure that WWE understands that difference. Case in point, the match the (reportedly) upset the crowd so much in New York on annivesary night, 4 cruisers who got a whopping 3-4 minutes to work a "match". In that length of time, it isnothing but a little bit of choreography.

But in some WWE minds, that's apparently supposedly to be a-ok. For a theatrical based promotion, they sure don't seem to get that there needs to be some sort of story told in the ring as well.

Also, some of these guys weren't even at the top of the cards in their respective minor leagues.

I'm not entirely sure I'm too troubled by that aspect. I mean, if you took literally nothing but an all-star (talent) lineup, somebody ends up being underpromoted in terms of card position just 'cause of the numbers. So I'm kind of okay with the mix of guys they signed, generally speaking.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Omega vs Cody announced for "the fate of the bullet club" ... at ROH Supercard of Honor in New Orleans.

They are bound and determined to convince my child to make that damned trip to NOLA.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Omega vs Cody announced for "the fate of the bullet club" ... at ROH Supercard of Honor in New Orleans.

They are bound and determined to convince my child to make that damned trip to NOLA.

Crap, was hoping it would be @ Anniversary in March here in Vegas but knew the venue is too small for it to happen here.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Crap, was hoping it would be @ Anniversary in March here in Vegas but knew the venue is too small for it to happen here.

I'm a little surprised that they're dragging it out so far, and a little surprised (but less than the timing) that NJPW doesn't get the resolution.

To me, all signs point to things going Cody's way so that he & the Bucks can be mostly stateside between now & their show in Chicago.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm a little surprised that they're dragging it out so far, and a little surprised (but less than the timing) that NJPW doesn't get the resolution.

To me, all signs point to things going Cody's way so that he & the Bucks can be mostly stateside between now & their show in Chicago.

Yeah but New Japan Cup is coming up (so likely won't see many NJPW guys at Anniversary in Vegas as it starts the same night) so they'll have a chance for Cody to cost Omega the Cup to boil over the next month in N'awlins.

[murrayyyyy]

How can they keep the belt off Strowman? The man is a national treasure after last night.

Braun Strowman bashes Elias with a bass: Raw, Feb. 12, 2018 - YouTube

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

How can they keep the belt off Strowman? The man is a national treasure after last night.

They've gotten a lot more from him than I thought was there

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

How can they keep the belt off Strowman? The man is a national treasure after last night.

Braun Strowman bashes Elias with a bass: Raw, Feb. 12, 2018 - YouTube

That was a really entertaining bit. They totally nailed it.

[Suicane75]

I'm very torn on Strowman. He's great at clusterfucks, great at skits, but his in ring work just isn't there yet to where you can put the title on him. Him vs Brock at WM would likely die the same death their previous match did unless you totally change it up and just let them go nuts. Even then, it'd be hard pressed to keep the belt on him working actual matches. But I fucking love everything else about him.

That being said, I really have no interest in seeing Brock/Roman again, especially to close out WM, and there really isn't anyone else you could put in the challengers spot that would be a WM worthy main event. Now, if they were willing to let AJ/Nakamura go on last, that's a different story, but I just don't see that happening.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The latest episode ("Pull Apart") of Being The Elite is pretty darned well done.

Love 'em or hate 'em or don't give two shits either way, they've come quite a ways since starting that series on YT -- things like the camera work and the editing -- and figuring out how to handle the current storyline within the context of the YT series was certainly no easy task, but they've done a good job with it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Speaking of social media stuff ... somehow I'd never heard Gallows & Anderson do other people's shows (Jericho, Austin). They're a damned stitch.

[Comey]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

How can they keep the belt off Strowman? The man is a national treasure after last night.

Braun Strowman bashes Elias with a bass: Raw, Feb. 12, 2018 - YouTube

The best is that Coach laughed right as it happened. That was fantastic.

[murrayyyyy]

So which show will have the rights to ruin Johnny Gargano? Daniel Bryan 2.0 seems destined to be ruined like every call up is from NXT.

[RainMaker]

It sounds like he'll be on 205 Live which sucks.

[murrayyyyy]

Probably the most predictable PPV in a long time. Glad I didn't drop the money to go see it. Not saying the matches were horrible, it just felt like a longer Smackdown episode to me.

[murrayyyyy]

Also a chance to get my hopes up for Omega @ Anniversary in 2 weeks as he is skipping the Cup this year.

Danny on Twitter: "Kenny in a Tokyo Sports interview on why he’s not in the New Japan Cup.

Thx to @DartVader_1… "

[RainMaker]

I usually watch Wrestlemania but I really don't have any interest this year. Rousey does absolutely nothing for me. Especially when HHH and Stephanie are the focal point per usual. And Reigns coronation for another year seems boring. Plus they just killed Braun's push and it sounds like he'll be up against the Miz which no one should care about.

AJ-Nakamura should be fun if they are given time but there is nothing else on that card I'm remotely interested in.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

So which show will have the rights to ruin Johnny Gargano? Daniel Bryan 2.0 seems destined to be ruined like every call up is from NXT.

I went to NXT in Barrie, Ont yesterday and it was pretty decent. Johnny Gargano is a total face. The kind that actually gets cheered. He had the crowd with him during his entire match. They felt his pain. They cheered when he had his moments, and then after the show, he stayed and shook hands with anybody in the entire arena that wanted to (that's a lot of people). On Twitter, Steve Corino made a comment on that, how impressed he was with Gargano.

Meanwhile, the guy main eventing Wrestlemania gets booed out of the building every night, is thoroughly unlikeable, but gets everything handed to him on a silver platter for years on end. It's the same story as 2014, nothing ever changes.

Also got to see Ricochet for the first time, that guy is one of the most athletic guys i have ever seen in the ring. His wrestling is miles better than it was a few years ago as well, he is more than just a bunch of high spots now. He will be a main roster guy real soon.