Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

They'd be dumb if they didn't.

I'm thinking a Shane/Bryan vs Zayn/Owens match would be great at Mania. Shane can take his dumb bump and everyone else can put on a great match.

I mean and if he's "back" he has to be on a Brock schedule too I would assume.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Although I have relatively low expectations for the show based on the card, I will mention that NJPW's show in Long Beach is available live tonight on AXS. (8p eastern, 5p pacific).

I don't think it'll be the best sample of the overall product but if someone wanted to just see some of the roster in action live, there's an unusual opportunity that doesn't involve the company website.

#fwiw

[RainMaker]

Is there anyone I should be paying attention to? Don't really follow NJPW outside of a few top names.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Is there anyone I should be paying attention to? Don't really follow NJPW outside of a few top names.

Half the guys involved? LOL.

I just did a quick match by match preview on my FB, I'll paste that here & you can pick & choose. Spoiler tagged just to cover up how long it is

Spoiler

9 matches in all

1) Rappongi 3k (Sho/Yoh/Rocky Romero) vs Scorpio Sky / Kazarian / Daniels. -- sort of a PWG opener. I'm not big on Sho/Yoh tbh but Daniels might be my favorite wrestler for most of a decade so I'm down with it.

2) David Finlay/Juice Robinson vs Gedo/Hirooki Goto -- Yes, that's Fit Finlay's kid Robinson is the rising gaijin in the company, Finlay has looked solid lately, and Gedo/Goto are veterans who should put them over well

3) Chuckie T / Toru Yano vs Davey Boy Smith, Jr & Lance Archer -- largely comedy guys vs Killer Elite Squad. The spots in this one might be the most predictable for regular viewers. Yano gonna Yano ... which means he can either get brutally beaten OR win via low blow & flash pin.

4) Guerrillas of Desinty (Tama Tonga & Tonga Loa) vs Marty Scurll + Cody Rhodes -- not sure what they did to set up the match between (ostensible) Bullet Club stable mates specifically (there's a ton of backstory for this though), Scurll is the guy to watch honestly, one of the best underrated heels in the business lately & can flat out work. GoD are the adopted sons of ring veteran/legend Haku.

5) 8-man tag -- an NJPW show staple, the eight man tag match. It's where everybody who needed to be on the show gets their spot in. On one side is Dragon Lee, Taguchi, Kushida, and "Ace" Hiroshi Tanahashi, on the other side is the brilliant Hiromu Takahashi, Bushi, SANADA, and Tetsuya Naito (collectively LiJ, Los Ingobernables de Japon).

Tanahashi is basically the NJPW John Cena with better work rate. Naito is the guy who really ought to be the current world champion. And Sanada is among the guys who are looking like they might get a singles push & has been doing great with his recent opportunities.

But I'm not sure I wanna try to explain what's going on if Taguchi starts waving runners home from third (if you see that, just roll with it, m'kay?)

6) Jushin Thunder Liger vs Will Ospreay -- the legendary veteran vs the poster child for "flippy floppy". This will either bring out the best of Liger (who basically only works 8 man tags lately) or it will be a sad c.f. of a match where Ospreay has to slow down to about 25% of his speed. An innovator that is a long way past his prime frankly vs a guy who is more acrobat than wrestler. Can you tell my expectations are super low?

7) Tomohiro Ishii & Kazuchika Okada vs Zack Sabre, Jr & Minoru Suzuki. -- oh dear, there's gonna be some wincing by fans who haven't seen these guys before. Ishii is a tree stump with legs, takes insane punishment. Okada is the reigning world champ. ZSJ is quite likely the most talented submission style guy in pro wrestling, and is just getting better. And Suzuki is a sadistic animal who lives to inflict pain (perfect mentor for ZSJ) .. and those are his GOOD qualities. The big guys will beat the living hell out of each other toe to toe, and the skinny Brit will try to cripple the world champ. #GoodTimes

8) U.S. Title Match - Hangman Page (challenger) vs "Switchblade" Jay White (champion) -- White got the title as part of a sudden superpush after returning from excursion. Page is better than his midcarder status suggests, but a title change here would be ... stupefying. I think these two might actually work well together in the ring & produce a solid match ... but I'd be at risk of fainting if the outcome wasn't predictable

9) Young Bucks vs Golden Lovers -- Nick & Matt Jackson against the best in the world Kenny Omega & his recently reunited long-lost tag partner Kota Ibushi. Here's where all the storyline stuff comes in. And I'd have to type til the show started to even try to explain all the drama that's tied up in this. Basically, the Bucks were Omega's closest & most loyal backup ... until Ibushi reunited with his partner from the early stages of their careers in Japan. And all that happens in the larger context of "control of Bullet Club". 30 minute time limit suggests a draw here, to set up the Bucks/Rhodes promoted show in Chicago later this year. There will be drama, there will be uncomfortably ambigous moments, there will be at least 1-2 guys selling injuries ... but given the decided flair for the dramatic that three of the four possess, I figure they'll come up with something crazy.

I mean, last time I think we saw Omega in the ring anywhere, he was wearing a giant bear costume ... and, no, I'm not going to try to explain that fully either. (though I will point out that Beary The Bear is a U.S. thing, not a Japan thing ... which makes it even weirder).

[murrayyyyy]

I'll say this about 8 and try to be as vague as I can. The champion is wrestling the challenger because he is being used as an indirect wedge to help breakup the challengers faction. The promotion interview between the two was the champion making fun of the faction and telling the challenger that he wasn't on his level because he was into making youtube videos about his manhood instead of trying to be a champion.

Also in 9b, there was another promo in roh in which the division of bc is offered up again (tv tappings the next night)

1, 5, 7 and 9 are probably the matches I'd enjoy the most just looking at the card.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Also in 9b, there was another promo in roh in which the division of bc is offered up again (tv tappings the next night)

1, 5, 7 and 9 are probably the matches I'd enjoy the most just looking at the card.

In terms of what I expect to enjoy most, I'd say 7 & 9 probably, 'cause 1 is hurt by how much I don't give a shit about one of the sides in the match.

In terms of match quality, I honestly think 8 might be the contender to be the biggest surprise, which will have me watching it just to see if that happens.

Oddly enough, the guys on the show that I enjoy most overall as individual talents/entertainers are stuck in matches that I didn't mention. Scurll working in the U.K. against a local, for example, is a pure delight to me as a viewer, sheer artistry.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

In terms of what I expect to enjoy most, I'd say 7 & 9 probably, 'cause 1 is hurt by how much I don't give a shit about one of the sides in the match.

In terms of match quality, I honestly think 8 might be the contender to be the biggest surprise, which will have me watching it just to see if that happens.

Oddly enough, the guys on the show that I enjoy most overall as individual talents/entertainers are stuck in matches that I didn't mention. Scurll working in the U.K. against a local, for example, is a pure delight to me as a viewer, sheer artistry.

I can see it with 1 and I was impressed with Sky @ ROH16 since I hadn't seen him much. At least you know you will see a BME with the opening match which should get the crowd into it.

I have that same feeling about match 4 as Scurll is the only person I'd wanted to see as I think his partners work is way overrated right now. As much as I like Marty, I have zero interest in this match and would rather see a match involving Takahashi and Natio.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Dear me, AXS coverage/production is horrible.

Hearing the voiceover guy mispronounce names in the opening video ought to be fucking embarrassing for AXS.

And their attempt to do ECW style camera work ain't much better.

[dubb93]

All I know is JR is right. These guys need to get out of the fucking ring. Other than that it was alright.

How does that get through to the live coverage. Yikes.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by dubb93

All I know is JR is right. These guys need to get out of the fucking ring. Other than that it was alright.

How does that get through to the live coverage. Yikes.

They have got to get rid of this AXS deal. Their coverage of this was somewhere between tragic & comic last year (JR was flat out embarrassing honestly), it's not a ton better overall this year.

Compared to the usual NJPW English commentary, it's a major downgrade every time AXS gets involved.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Props to Liger, that's pretty much the best performance I've seen from him in going on two years.

I shat upon the likelihood of that in my pre-show comments, Liger showed me up.

[JonInMiddleGA]

@jonsthreecents

I'd be fine if one of those V-triggers decapitated a Jackson brother ... and that's a tribute to how well the Jacksons have played their roles here. #njSSE

[RainMaker]

I enjoyed it. Was excited to see Juice since I remember him a bit from NXT and heard he's improved a lot.

Cody is still not the best in the ring but he sure understands the business. I wish we had gotten Scurll's own entrance though because it's one of the best in the business.

Also agree with the AXS coverage. JR just doesn't seem invested in it. The camera work reminds me of a local indy promotion from Chicago in the 90's that had practically no money.

[RainMaker]

Few weeks old but this is a terrific piece on Cody.

https://www.theringer.com/2018/3/6/1...-rhodes-all-in

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I enjoyed it. Was excited to see Juice since I remember him a bit from NXT and heard he's improved a lot.

Cody is still not the best in the ring but he sure understands the business. I wish we had gotten Scurll's own entrance though because it's one of the best in the business.

Also agree with the AXS coverage. JR just doesn't seem invested in it. The camera work reminds me of a local indy promotion from Chicago in the 90's that had practically no money.

I think my biggest problem with Cody is that he doesn't have "that" match. I mean most of his highest ranked matches are involving 6 or more people. But if someone asked me for a great 4* match from him I couldn't provide it.

I mean I think he can tell a good story. I think he has a good understanding of the business in the front and the back. I just never see the payoff with him when the match is over.

[dubb93]

Anyone here subscribe to New Japan World? Does it show a majority of their shows or are a lot of them still not shown(how often do they put on shows)? What % would you say are shown in English? I’m pretty intrigued after last night’s show.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Anyone here subscribe to New Japan World? Does it show a majority of their shows or are a lot of them still not shown(how often do they put on shows)? What % would you say are shown in English? I’m pretty intrigued after last night’s show.

Ehhh, I'd say close to 40% the shows on the network have English commentary (maybe a little less, occasionally more, kinda depends on what tour they're running at the time).

Honestly, once you're in the flow with everything (and there definitely is a certain rhythm to how they do things) you may find yourself like we are here in the batcave, comfortably following everything even when there's only Japanese commentary. If nothing else it's interesting to discover which words they have to use Engrish for lol. And, despite my expectations going in, I think Kevin Kelly & Don Callis actually do a great job hitting the right tone for American fans of the product.

And best I can tell, almost pretty much every "named" show appears on the network. And that's not just the PPV-level ones, I mean all the "Road To ... " shows as well. It's rare at this point that I don't have the opportunity to see almost anything they do.

Do keep in mind though that the schedule can seem erratic to an American viewer. You may have 3 shows in a week, or 4-5 in 10-12 days but then go 10 days without one. It's that "touring schedule" deal so there can be some feast or famine. The shows tend to be long (3 hours and up isn't unusual) so when they're really busy then it becomes challenging just to watch it all in a timely manner.

And, fair warning: their website is pretty awesomely awful. Even the English translation page is ... challenging. It's doable but it ain't the prettiest or simplest to navigate.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I wish we had gotten Scurll's own entrance though because it's one of the best in the business.

Whoop whoop

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Also agree with the AXS coverage. JR just doesn't seem invested in it. The camera work reminds me of a local indy promotion from Chicago in the 90's that had practically no money.

Thankfully, JR seemed significantly more prepared than he was last year. Not always on target with his comments, but waaaaaay better than last year.

After Barnett had what sounded to me like an off-mic moment early in the show, the commentary settled down to be reasonably tolerable. It felt like they tightened up their shit a good bit after that happened.

The camera work tho, good Lord, after getting used to watching the NJPW presentation -- which has a definite style of its own -- it's jarring.

The dandy YouTuber "Showbuckle" did a video about that which really illustrates it
New Japan Pro Wrestling's Sublime Video Production Style - YouTube

[SirFozzie]

Holy. Fucking. Shit.

That NXT card. HOW DO THEY KEEP GETTING BETTER?

[RainMaker]

Amazing show. Tough act to follow for Wrestlemania.

[Neon_Chaos]

All we need is a Heyman turn on Lesnar, and a full heel turn for Reigns aligning with Paul. Bam. Your hottest instant heel for 2018.

But we all know it ain't happening.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

All we need is a Heyman turn on Lesnar, and a full heel turn for Reigns aligning with Paul. Bam. Your hottest instant heel for 2018.

But we all know it ain't happening.

Some things are too perfect for this world...

[RainMaker]

Did anyone watch the ROH show? Wondering how it was.

[cmp]

Can we just be done with Roman Reigns yet? A heel turn is all that save him.

[RainMaker]

This main event is so bad.

[cmp]

Wow. I didn't see that finish coming.

[RainMaker]

I just don't get it. Can't remember a WM main event that had this little buzz. Crowd didn't seem to care much either way. Chants of "this is awful" and "cm punk" throughout.

I'd understand if Roman was selling tickets like Cena does, but by all accounts he doesn't. He's never going to get over doing the same thing year after year.

[Mota]

Pretty sad ending to a decent Wrestlemania. Nothing special considering how many big matches there were.

When the crowd is chanting Boring, CM Punk and This Is Awful during the Wrestlemania main event, you should realize you're doing something wrong. Both of these wrestlers are horrible, in the 10 minutes of the match they essentially did 4 moves 50 times. Superman Punch, Spear, German Suplex and F5. Maybe they should sit these guys down and make them watch some NXT, that show was amazing. And maybe Roman can jump a little for those German Suplexes, it looked like someone giving my mom a German Suplex. His feet barely lifted off the mat. Maybe next year will be Roman Reign's year. A 5th consecutive Wrestlemania main event, I'm sure the crowd will warm up to him by then.

Until they said the kid's name was Nicholas, I couldn't tell if it was a boy or a girl, and neither could my son. It was obviously staged, as they could never trust a fan to stay on the outside. Then when he was hot tagged in that became even more obvious. Will he be touring around defending his tag titles? Will he have a last name in the record books as a champion?

Before those two dumb matches, I did enjoy the rest of the show though. My favorite was probably Charlotte against Asuka, that match felt really important, and there was a lot on the line. I also enjoyed the Styles / Nakamura match, and will look forward to seeing the rematches.

I was so happy to see Daniel Bryan back. It's obvious that he loves what he does, and he was back in at 100%. He wasn't getting special treatment in any way, taking hard bumps. I'm a little concerned that he may feel like a nostalgia act soon though, as he hasn't changed anything up in the 2 years that he was gone. I was thinking he would turn heel and align with Owens and Zayn to make a crazy good stable.

Also, this is 2018. Aren't we past using little people as pancakes? That was uncomfortable to watch.

[Mota]

Also, Rhonda Rousey is a PRO. Her first match and she's already better than half the roster.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

Also, Rhonda Rousey is a PRO. Her first match and she's already better than half the roster.

As my kid said to me, crazy talented but green as grass.

[dubb93]

I'm extremely disappointed with the Styles-Nakamura match. It should have been a classic, but for whatever reason didn't even get to the level of the Page-White earlier this month...which is absolutely mind blowing to me.

All that said....HHH can lay out a freaking match. How that match was as good as it was I will never know. The roll he has going on in NXT as well, he obviously has a major hand in those matches too.

Hopefully at Summerslam we get Styles-Nakamura again, but with HHH and HBK producing the match.

[cmp]

Styles-Nakamura felt like it was at the point where it was about to get really good, and then it just ended.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by cmp

Can we just be done with Roman Reigns yet? A heel turn is all that save him.

Can we just be done with Brock yet. Roman has put on decent matches in the past few years. What's the best Brock match over the past 2 years? Roman can't do a thing if the other guy doesn't want to play. Just ask Ambrose at 32.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cmp

Styles-Nakamura felt like it was at the point where it was about to get really good, and then it just ended.

One thing I'm not buying is that the largely quiet crowd response was just "Japanese heat". There's pretty much zero chance of that happening at a Wrestlemania, that's not who those ticketbuyers are.

I believe the match was where it was & was structured the way it was so they could ultimately say "see, the crowd just wasn't that into it". They weren't uninterested you twits, they were just exhausted.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Can we just be done with Brock yet.

Aside from Heyman, I've been done with the disinterested SOB since he got back in the first place.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

One thing I'm not buying is that the largely quiet crowd response was just "Japanese heat". There's pretty much zero chance of that happening at a Wrestlemania, that's not who those ticketbuyers are.

I believe the match was where it was & was structured the way it was so they could ultimately say "see, the crowd just wasn't that into it". They weren't uninterested you twits, they were just exhausted.

I'm not sure he gives a shit anymore. It seems like he signed on with the WWE for a less stressful style compared to Japan and this was an easy way to collect a check when getting older. I don't think we will ever see a top quality match from him while in the WWE.

I didn't think the crowd was ever into anything last night. A year ago I can remember thinking Naka or Roode's theme would blow the roof of the building and both were so-so reactions.

Pre-show match and 1st half of the show was great so maybe it was exhaustion of the crowd.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Aside from Heyman, I've been done with the disinterested SOB since he got back in the first place.

If you believe dirt sheets so is Vince now. Hopefully they didn't resign him and he will drop the strap tonight.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

I'm not sure he gives a shit anymore. It seems like he signed on with the WWE for a less stressful style compared to Japan and this was an easy way to collect a check when getting older. I don't think we will ever see a top quality match from him while in the WWE.

That's one reason I found the presence of Tanahashi, Okada, and Suzuki interesting.

I couldn't help but wonder if, just maybe, they either were hoping to light a little fire or have a little conversation/prompt some recollection of when he was hotter.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Mota

Until they said the kid's name was Nicholas, I couldn't tell if it was a boy or a girl, and neither could my son. It was obviously staged, as they could never trust a fan to stay on the outside. Then when he was hot tagged in that became even more obvious. Will he be touring around defending his tag titles? Will he have a last name in the record books as a champion?

It turns out that “Nicholas” is actually the son of WWE referee John Cone.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

I'm not sure he gives a shit anymore. It seems like he signed on with the WWE for a less stressful style compared to Japan and this was an easy way to collect a check when getting older. I don't think we will ever see a top quality match from him while in the WWE.

I didn't think the crowd was ever into anything last night. A year ago I can remember thinking Naka or Roode's theme would blow the roof of the building and both were so-so reactions.

Pre-show match and 1st half of the show was great so maybe it was exhaustion of the crowd.

Just seems too long of a show. Not sure what they can do to fix it since there isn't a clear answer to what you cut.

I think what hurt WM is that there was just no good builds into any of the matches. You're coming a day after Ciampo-Gargano which was built up for like a year. Was there any match on the card that had a tenth of the emotion that that angle had?

Heck, they made me not even care about Daniel Bryan coming back. Why did they not have him go against Miz?

[Calis]

I've been out of the loop for quite a while but have been thinking about trying out a NJPW Show and was leaning towards one of their English commentary ones to ease me in...any suggestions? Is Wrestle Kingdom 12 the way to go or is there a better option?

[RainMaker]

Wonder if they'll have Brock drop it here. Being hyped up as a big deal. Guessing the crowd would be much more Roman friendly.

BREAKING: #UniversalChampion @BrockLesnar re-signs with @WWE and will defend his championship against @WWERomanReigns in a #SteelCage match at WWE Greatest Royal Rumble! #WWEGRR https://t.co/rr4xAzlrGs

— WWE (@WWE) April 9, 2018

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Calis

I've been out of the loop for quite a while but have been thinking about trying out a NJPW Show and was leaning towards one of their English commentary ones to ease me in...any suggestions? Is Wrestle Kingdom 12 the way to go or is there a better option?

The one danger with that approach, perhaps, is that it sets the bar pretty high.

That's fine, but just understand (over the long term) that you're seeing what amounts to a "season finale". Given their tendency to do long-term storytelling -- with little/not-so-little callbacks that can be years old -- that means any one show can be a bit less than the sum of the parts.

(The consistently great YT'er Showbuckle just did a video about this with some examples of what I mean)

I don't have a better suggestion for what to start with honestly, short of watching something like the entire G1 Climax, but just do so with an good understanding that there may not be one perfect place to start either.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Aaaand Lesnar has signed a new contract

[RainMaker]

I find Lesnar fine for a match or two each year. But having him hold your main title of Raw seems kind of silly. I wonder if they'll swap guys around next week and get AJ over to Raw and Reigns to Smackdown (which means Reigns will beat Lesnar in Saudi Arabia). The WWE Championship should probably be on Raw and Reigns might work better over on Smackdown for awhile.

[Neon_Chaos]

Bobby Lashley returns.

That's one good reason for Lesnar to keep the title.

[RainMaker]

And for what it's worth, it doesn't sound like his new deal is for many appearance. Sounds like he'll do the Saudi show to drop the belt and be off till after he fights UFC at the end of the year.

So the Saudi show and WM with some TV appearances thrown in.

Not sure how credible this guy is:

My understanding is Lesnar signed for one more match. Audible called by Vince during the match last night when Roman wasn’t getting over at all. Now Lesnar will lose the belt in front of a more conducive audience.

— Jeremy Botter (@jeremybotter) April 9, 2018

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Not sure how credible this guy is:

Jeremy Botter (@jeremybotter)

He's, umm, controversial I guess. Or polarizing might be better.
He's right at times, wrong at times.

[Mota]

So it looks like Roman Reigns will get his get moment as he becomes champion and gets cheered by the super casual non-smark audience.

The next day, he will come back to North America, and continue to be treated by the fans as they always have. What's the difference?