Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Takahashi legit broke his neck on that botched suplex, holy shit:

Italo Santana 🇧🇷 on Twitter: "JESUS CHRIST!!!!!!! #G1USA #NJPW @dragon_leecmll… "

Oh wow that looks bad. What went wrong? Doesn't seem like the safest move.

[RainMaker]

Question for Jon or others who follow NJPW. Do they ever do gimmick matches? I don't think I've seen a steel cage match, ladder match, or any other kind of gimmick like that. Can't think of many times a triple threat match was even used for a big match. I know they do those big spot fest tag matches at the beginning of shows, but never see it for the main events.

It's kind of refreshing in a way but was wondering if my short time watching is accurate. And perhaps why this is the case. If I remember correctly, wasn't Japan the place they used to do all the barbwire stuff in the 90's?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

So which one is the Wolfpack/red NWO/nwo elite now?

At least through last night, it's basically the Tongans as one group ("B.C. Firing Squad") and everybody else in another group. The only guy unaccounted for I guess is Bone Soldier (who I'm guessing will be with the Tongans, otherwise they don't have a Jr Hvy). I figure there'll be guys changing sides along the course of the story as we go.

You could split hairs -- and we probably will -- about which is b&w and which is red. I mean, one group has 4 (or 5) guys, the other has several more than that. Can a larger group be considered a "splinter" faction?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Question for Jon or others who follow NJPW. Do they ever do gimmick matches? I don't think I've seen a steel cage match, ladder match, or any other kind of gimmick like that. Can't think of many times a triple threat match was even used for a big match. I know they do those big spot fest tag matches at the beginning of shows, but never see it for the main events.

It's kind of refreshing in a way but was wondering if my short time watching is accurate. And perhaps why this is the case. If I remember correctly, wasn't Japan the place they used to do all the barbwire stuff in the 90's?

We had a hair match recently (Suzuki vs Goto).
We had a 4 man match for the Jr title recently.
We had a bullrope match in the past year (Suzuki vs Yano)
We get occasional No DQ / Falls Count Anywhere matches
There's also the odd gauntlet match (Never Openweight Trios did that earlier in the year)

So they do have them occasionally but it's pretty infrequent.

The last -- and only I believe -- ladder match in NJPW history was Elgin vs Omega 3-4 years ago.

edit to add: Yes, the exploding rope barbed wire piranha deathmatches were primarily a Japan thing, but never in the major companies. That was pretty much relegated to 3rd tier companies.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Oh wow that looks bad. What went wrong? Doesn't seem like the safest move.

I can't bring myself to watch again right now but the spot looked bad (as did several during the match) in real time. He basically got dropped on his head instead of his back. Imperfection in a situation where the margin for error can be pretty narrow.

One thing that gives me pause about the accident/incident is that it was actually the 4th match Dragon Lee Jr had worked in 24 hours. He went 3x on Friday during the APW/PWR King of the Indies show (beating Taguchi, Brody King, and Flip Gordon). Did being physically taxed play a role?

edit to add: In asking that question, I have to say that the match itself was nothing short of outstanding. The comparison I made toward the end / afterwards was "Benoit vs Eddy caliber". It was a solid 4.25 to 4.50 match easily enough (and I tend to grade low), they pretty well burned the f'n house down, so it's not as though you watched it and thought fatigue was an issue or anything.

[Suicane75]

I was not real pumped going into the show but from the halfway point on it really felt like an old school Clash Of Champions event and I loved it. Takahashi/Lee was amazing, I really enjoyed the tag title match and the US & World title matches were great. I didn't like all the garbage spots in the main but I could live with it.


I disagree on JR. I wouldn't say he was better per se, though I think he was, but it almost seemed like he was embracing his role of curmudgeonly old timer while still calling enough of the action. And I popped hard for the Barnett spot. It just had an aura of realness to it that you rarely see in wrestling today. I legit feared for Jay Whites life.


I liked the closing angle but It would have been nice to have Fale & Bone Soldier there. Also, there are just so many useless BC members now. Everyone below Scurill is just meat, though I understand you can't just get rid of them.



I'm looking much more forward to the G1/All In shows than I was before last night, so kudos to NJPW.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I liked the closing angle but It would have been nice to have Fale & Bone Soldier there. Also, there are just so many useless BC members now. Everyone below Scurill is just meat, though I understand you can't just get rid of them.

I dunno, I think Yujiro is probably the only true dead weight of the bunch.

I think Page is poised to move up the card, would have been fine with him being part of G1 honestly. Owens, well, there's still some work to do.

[dubb93]

Am I crazy, or is the entire G1 Climax this year being shown in English?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Am I crazy, or is the entire G1 Climax this year being shown in English?

Yep, that's the plan.

They even have an all-English website for the event
G1 CLIMAX 28 | NEW JAPAN PRO-WRESTLING

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I dunno, I think Yujiro is probably the only true dead weight of the bunch.

I think Page is poised to move up the card, would have been fine with him being part of G1 honestly. Owens, well, there's still some work to do.

Yujiro, Owens, Page can all go AFAIC. I get that Page is improving, and I don't mind him per se, but I'm not sure being a face in the crowd helps him as much as going outside and working with White, Juice, Finlay would. Keep Pieter though, for the love of god keep Pieter.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Keep Pieter though, for the love of god keep Pieter.

Isn't she the one that's dating Fale in real life?

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

At least through last night, it's basically the Tongans as one group ("B.C. Firing Squad") and everybody else in another group. The only guy unaccounted for I guess is Bone Soldier (who I'm guessing will be with the Tongans, otherwise they don't have a Jr Hvy). I figure there'll be guys changing sides along the course of the story as we go.

You could split hairs -- and we probably will -- about which is b&w and which is red. I mean, one group has 4 (or 5) guys, the other has several more than that. Can a larger group be considered a "splinter" faction?

My NJPW isn't up to date but are there 4 groups now? The Firing Squad which is Tonga, Camacho and Haku (just from what I saw in the clip online), the Elite (Omega, Bucks{maybe Ibushi}) the rest of the English BC (Cody, Skrull, Page) and then all those others from the past (Fale, Takahashi, who knows who else). I know some can be combined but I don't watch enough to say X is here only. Will Fale be part of the Firing Squad?

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

My NJPW isn't up to date but are there 4 groups now? The Firing Squad which is Tonga, Camacho and Haku (just from what I saw in the clip online), the Elite (Omega, Bucks{maybe Ibushi}) the rest of the English BC (Cody, Skrull, Page) and then all those others from the past (Fale, Takahashi, who knows who else). I know some can be combined but I don't watch enough to say X is here only. Will Fale be part of the Firing Squad?

Pretty sure that the point of the angle was to unite all the rest of the BC against the Firing Squad. Not even sure they're considered BC anymore. They beat the fuck out of all of them so I think it's safe to say that BC is united (though I wouldn't be surprised if The Elite banner stuck, just for merchandising purposes.


So it's pretty much FS (Fale, Soldier, Tonga, Roa) vs BC (Omega, Bucks, Cody, Scurill, Page, Takahashi, Owens). I imagine FS will add a member or two at some point or someone will turn.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

So it's pretty much FS (Fale, Soldier, Tonga, Roa) vs BC (Omega, Bucks, Cody, Scurill, Page, Takahashi, Owens). I imagine FS will add a member or two at some point or someone will turn.

I think that's about it, though presumably Hikuleo (aka Leo Tonga) is also part of BC:FS* whenever he comes back from injury. And my expectation is that Haku is going to be part of this storyline for some time to come.

*(the t-shirts keep the BC in their name)

Now to another part of murrayyyyy's question, the sub-stables inside BC:
Omega + Bucks = The Elite
Omega + Bucks + Ibushi = The Golden Elite
Scurll + Cody + Page = Villain Club
Scurll + Bucks = Super Villains
Page + Bucks = The Hung Bucks

And in addition to the tag team names that are duo specific (Young Bucks, Guerillas of Destiny), Page & Scurll revived & used The Handsome Devils repeatedly during the post-match presser this weekend so they'll make that a thing if they can I guess.

[RainMaker]

Couple other things from the show.

- I was really happy to see Juice win. Kind of sad how WWE used him. Guy has a lot of charisma and talent.

- I love how NJPW treats the titles. Little things like letting people know this person is the "63rd IWGP Heavyweight Champion" or listing that it's their "1st title defense" mean something. It doesn't feel like a prop.

- I still think the style is unsafe. So many guys being dropped on their neck. So many piledrivers and moves of that sort. I understand these coming out in big matches but they feel overused and dangerous. I love everything else about the matches (pacing, storytelling, etc) but some of the bumps they take make me cringe.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

- I love how NJPW treats the titles. Little things like letting people know this person is the "63rd IWGP Heavyweight Champion" or listing that it's their "1st title defense" mean something. It doesn't feel like a prop.

The video montage - with stills of all the previous IWGP champions - that goes before each IWGP HW title match is fantastic stuff.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The video montage - with stills of all the previous IWGP champions - that goes before each IWGP HW title match is fantastic stuff.

Agreed. WWE probably couldn't get away with it because there are so many joke champions mixed in. But they easily could do a montage of some sort celebrating the title before each one.

I guess what I like about NJPW is they let you know that this match is a big deal not just now but for the history of the promotion.

[RainMaker]

So JR was legit hurt in that spot or is it just a work?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So JR was legit hurt in that spot or is it just a work?

So far he's swearing that he has a legit broken rib & that it was no work.

We went back & watched the "bump" several times last night. To me it looks as though he flipped the chair himself, whether on purpose or out of overreaction, because the impact on the table (which presumably then shoved him) should not have been enough to flip a grown man.

The whole situation seems squirrely a.f. and if it isn't a work then there was some odd shit going on somewhere. And I'm not sure who was being odd.

There's a whole rumored (so far as I know) about him specifically asking that no spots be done near the desk before the show began. That's odd to me since that's not really a big NJPW thing on regular basis, certainly far safer than a WWE announce table on average. So if that conversation really took place then I have to wonder why it even came up.

The other thing that makes me think work is the reaction of some of the other participants. The ref didn't seem particularly stressed over the sudden appearance of someone in street clothes in the ring. Sure, it's a staff member ... but how quickly can you make that connection if you aren't expecting someone? Young lion "security" made only a token effort to slow Barnett en route but they do appear confused. Meanwhile, I don't see much of any real security reaction to the sight of someone in street clothes heading to the ring. And I find it hard to believe that Barnett is so instantly recognizable to presumable actual security that they don't at least react briefly to someone charging the ring. Then there's Jay White's reaction, which is largely to go on a walkabout outside the ring ... which would be consistent with what performers (are told to) do when a fan heads to the ring, but his actions were also consistent with it being part of a work.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Solid 5 min video package to accompany this year's official G1 Climax theme song ("Break The Contradictions" from Man With A Mission)

https://youtu.be/Ds_RR2Q_gz8

[Suicane75]

I'm torn on the JR angle. On hand he looks legit hurt when he's being helped up. On the other hand he is able to carry on pretty well. Could be that he got injured in a planned spot. The thing that screams work the most to me, is that if Barnett wants to kill White, nobodies stopping him, and everything everyone does from the moment he crosses the barricade is very controlled. My guess is that we see White/Barnett at some point before the end of the year.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

My guess is that we see White/Barnett at some point before the end of the year.

What a hideously bad idea.

Note: I'm not saying you're wrong.

[Toddzilla]

I thought Kevin Kelly was an announcer for NJPW - is he only on the on-line service?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

I thought Kevin Kelly was an announcer for NJPW - is he only on the on-line service?

Yeah, unfortunately. NJPW World english commentary is Kelly and typically Don Callis (who have become remarkably solid together)

AXS coverage forces fans to endure JR and Barnett.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Things I didn't expect to type: Mustafa Ali vs Buddy Murphy was a damned good match by the looks of the extended highlights.

[JonInMiddleGA]

ROH, NJPW join forces for G1 Supercard at Madison Square Garden on April 6 | WWE | Sporting News

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

ROH, NJPW join forces for G1 Supercard at Madison Square Garden on April 6 | WWE | Sporting News

How much of the change deals with Cuban? He's been doing a lot of press for them lately.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

How much of the change deals with Cuban? He's been doing a lot of press for them lately.

I don't have that sense of it, just tbh. Or rather, that this isn't what's behind this announcement.

Gotta remember, ROH is owned by Sinclair Broadcasting and well, they're not bashful about lawsuits & such. I suspect this new arrangement (adding NJPW to the mix) is something to give MSG some cover with Vince while avoiding any legal entanglements over whatever went down with the direct ROH efforts to book.

edit to add: I could be completely wrong of course, it might be entirely Cuban making a phone call ... but that's not my gut about it.

[RainMaker]

My guess is that while MSG is loyal to WWE, it's not worth getting into a fight with Sinclair legally or Cuban from a PR standpoint.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Man, it's the little things with NJPW.

Night 1 of G1, the five random'ish tag matches to open the show ... we get Sho & Yo on opposite teams.

In turn, that kinda connects with what we've seen hinted at in matches for several months (and what feels inevitable to me).

edit to add: also was really conscious today (replay) of the absence of the phrase "let's go the back"

[JonInMiddleGA]

Finished the replay of Night 1, matches mostly in the 3* range but strong work on moving multiple stories forward.

It makes me wonder, a bit at least, after recent years have been very match-rating heavy if this year will turn out to be more about story / character development.

And, ya know, it doesn't feel too bad to me if that's the case.

[JonInMiddleGA]

As for the JR/Josh b.s., I'll point out this from the first night & change of Climax:

Last night Jay White did the same throw to the announcer rail.

Tonight LiJ tosses Yoshi-Hashi into the staff rail, nearly taking out one of the medics.

Tonight Suzuki went after the announce table, with Callis squealing like a little girl & literally running away, while Kelly simply screamed "OH GOD !!!!"

They've only mentioned the White/Robinson "incident" once on English commentary (with no mention of what that entailed) but it seems pretty clear that there's a concentrated effort to repeat the spot.

edit to add: all that's missing at this point is to have Callis or Kelly (or their translator) do a scare + chair flip bump

edit 2: They just teased Fale doing his finisher (Bad Luck Fall) to someone through the announce table. And that's just in the first three tag match prelim stuff.

edit 3: Make it four straight matches, this time Jay White driving David Finlay into the barricade, which then slams into the announce table. Convo afterwards "Having fun Don? Right in the line of fire Kevin, as always"

edit 4: Make it 5-for-5, this time with Ishii & Yano bumping the announcer rail, leading to this
Rocky: "Oww, my back"
Don: "That's the first bump you've taken in two months"
Rocky "My back really hurts"
Don "You didn't see it coming ... probably reading your Twitter feed"

Shade rating: 100

[JonInMiddleGA]

Between Askua/Carmella and Nakamura/Hardy (and the aftermath), this might be one of the lowest points in WWE creative in quite a while.

My God, this is horrifying.

[JonInMiddleGA]

That was TNA bad.

[RainMaker]

I like Orton better as a heel but that was just straight lazy.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I like Orton better as a heel but that was just straight lazy.

Rumors picking up that Hardy may have a legit injury ... but still.

And I give them a pass on the Kane stuff, apparently he has a legit broken ankle & they went that route to cover it.

When not even giving Reigns a loss redeems things, you know it was bad.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm pretty sure I mentioned this last year at some point but it already bears saying again: G1 Climax isn't just grueling for the workers, it's also an endurance test for fans.

Just trying to stay current (without resorting to just spoilers & recaps) takes a lot of effort.

edit to add: For those trying, especially the newer fans, I do recommend watching the post-match press conferences. (the sub-titled versions are usually released on the network within 24 hours). It's surprising how much they get into those sometimes. Fun even when they aren't informative.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The "reinvention" of Toru Yano is really fun stuff. Never mind the gimmick aspect, it's as complete a style change in the ring as I've ever seen anyone pull off, he's actually good at it. Considering that his comedy style followed him being a sadistic brute when he broke in, this is impressive as hell to me.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Oh, and random fandom stuff: we're going to the ROH TV taping in ATL Saturday night.

Card is, of course, subject to change but ... Scurll vs King, Daniels vs Jay Briscoe, Flip vs Silas, women's title match with Sumie Sakai vs Madison Rayne,

[RainMaker]

Not a bad show to go to. Daniels and Jay Briscoe sounds like fun.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Not a bad show to go to. Daniels and Jay Briscoe sounds like fun.

I think I'll wear my Fallen Angel gray t-shirt. That's gotta be, what, 15 years old?

Only wrestling tee I've ever personally owned aside from promotion shirts (I've still got an ECW Wrestlepalooza '98 shirt and somewhere here in a classic NWA logo shirt)

[RainMaker]

I remember those Styles-Daniels-Joe matches from TNA fondly. That company could have been great if they kept riding that talent instead of force feeding washed up WWE and WCW guys.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

edit to add: Yes, the exploding rope barbed wire piranha deathmatches were primarily a Japan thing, but never in the major companies. That was pretty much relegated to 3rd tier companies.

This sent me down a rabbit hole online and found a crazy story. I guess the promotion was called FMW in Japan and they did all those crazy matches. Did well for awhile too before it got old.

Anyways, the owner had to borrow a ton of money from the Yakuza. Went into hiding and eventually killed himself so his family could get the life insurance policy to pay them back. That would make a really good book.

Shoichi Arai - Wikipedia

[JonInMiddleGA]

LOL, just watching night 5 of G1.

Gotta be the greatest Red Shoes moment ever.

edit to add: I want to give some credit to Okada for being a willing seller & bumper. Let's be honest, he's got enough stroke that he could get away with saying no to some things but he can be pretty giving when he wants to be.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Was just trying to figure out the last major promotion I've seen in person (so basically anything bigger than whatever alphabet indy was running in Cornelia, GA).

Best we can come up with, that'd be 2007 ... TNA PPV in Nashville where Pacman Jones stood on the apron and did nothing & Austin "Consequences" Creed made his TNA debut.

[RainMaker]

I don't know if any of you have a Roku, but there is a app called Pluto TV. It's basically a free TV app. Most of the channels are internet based stuff and old shows/movies. Like there's a channel that just runs MS3TK episodes.

Anyways, there is a bunch of wrestling on it. TNA has it's own channel that just runs old shows. Now some are random Impact shows over the years, but they have a lot of old PPVs too. Even the real old stuff when they were aligned with NWA. Like I watched a Raven/AJ Styles match from over 10 years ago which was cool.

There's also a channel called "Stadium" that airs the weekly ROH show late at night if you don't have a Sinclair station in your area (like me).

Just a heads up. When I'm doing housework or other stuff, I like having something on in the background and that TNA channel has been mildly entertaining.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Aside from ending up parked waytoofuckingfar from the venue, a fairly good night at the ROH tapings. They did four episodes worth basically.

I don't think anybody is too concerned about spoilers on that (from what I gather, the biggest one has already made the IWC rounds pretty hard tonight anyway) but just in case

Spoiler

Aside from Jeff Cobb making his official debut -- albeit with simple run-ins to wreck first round matches for the "prospect tournament" or whatever its called, the other notable stuff from the show as far as stories go would be:

Alex Shelley basically gave a retirement speech at the end of Sabin's singles match. Said he wouldn't say "retired" since there's no pension plan for old wrestlers but that he thought MCMG had done all they could.

Bully Ray is unhappy with Silas Young, abandoned him to take the fall in a tag match (Young's second match of the night). My guess? Cobb will attract Bully's attention & we'll get Cobb vs Silas as his first program.

NWA World Champion Nick Aldis was on commentary for the 6 man title match (Buck & Cody vs The Kingdom). Bucks kind of egg on an "All In" chant at Aldis, and our half of the building quickly turned that into a split "All In ... Book Flip" chant lol (to the dismay of the Jacksons, who responded with "we're TRYING") Those 6-man belts appeared to change hands btw, though we figure that'll be reversed administratively (the pin was gotten on someone other than the legal man).

I'd say roughly 45% of the house was wearing BC gear. Biggest pop of the night went to Cody. Most heel heat to Briscoes for various run-ins / beatdowns of SCU.

Biggest takeaways of the night were how fucked ROH would be right now without the various BC members/BTE participants, they'd really struggle to draw IMO.

The women's division feels like a mistake, Sakai vs Rayne was fine but the earlier match was really weak (the participants utterly forgettable). A 30 min ironman with Lethal vs Jonathan Gresham was technically fine but drew no real interest until the 25 to 35 min mark. Felt like they thought Gresham would be more over in Atlanta (his hometown apparently) than he was.

The 300 pound newbie - Shane Taylor - might someday be at least a little something. The rest of the recent trainees looked like they're a long way from being anything. A couple of (I gather) local'ish cruisers that ended up on the wrong end of Jeff Cobb showed more in 5 minutes than any of the ROH newcomers did.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Oh, and THE wrestler encounter of the night for us had to be at intermission

I'm with half the crowd outside taking a smoke break and a car nearly hits the curb before backing up in traffic on W. Peachtree (it's a one-way) to pull underneath the building, nearly clipping cars & people in the process.

The driver?

A very sheepish Chris Sabin lol

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Aside from ending up parked waytoofuckingfar from the venue, a fairly good night at the ROH tapings. They did four episodes worth basically.

I'd say roughly 45% of the house was wearing BC gear.

Biggest takeaways of the night were how fucked ROH would be right now without the various BC members/BTE participants, they'd really struggle to draw IMO.

The women's division feels like a mistake, Sakai vs Rayne was fine but the earlier match was really weak (the participants utterly forgettable). A 30 min ironman with Lethal vs Jonathan Gresham was technically fine but drew no real interest until the 25 to 35 min mark. Felt like they thought Gresham would be more over in Atlanta (his hometown apparently) than he was.

Pretty much sums up ROH right there after every show I go to (they come to Vegas twice a year). It's usually 75% BC as most people seem to get their INDY stuff at Hot Topic out here. Lethal and Castle are the only two that seem to get a reaction out here as people sit on their hands during a Briscoe match usually. Dudley gets a pop just because he is the most WWE noticeable person.

The women's division was horrible when they had the tournament going on. Sakai had 0 crowd appeal when she was here and wrestled 2 matches that weekend.

[murrayyyyy]

Side question. Anyone been to an NXT house show? It's in Vegas next weekend and not sold out so I'd debating if I want to go or not.