2013 NFL Offseason/Coaches Fired/Draft discussions-

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by stevew

The Dolphins look to sign Mike Wallace. Despite what most moron Steeler fans think, he's a really good player. If it's as simple as him just being a track runner, then how come almost every other team lacks the guy to take the top off of the defense. There are plenty of guys faster than Wallace. The Steelers pass game will suffer going forward. His head wasn't in the game last year due to getting hurt by the tender and owner collusion. The Niners drafted a WR who caught like 3 passes. They should have given their pick up for Wallace if hindsight is 20/20.

Good? Yes. Undoubtedly he's good. Worth more than the 5yr/$50m contract the Steelers were offering? Very debatable. Wallace wasn't just a one-trick pony, but he's not too much more than that. In pads, he may be the fastest guy in the NFL - there aren't "plenty of guys" faster than Walalce. He ran a 4.33 at the combine, 4.28 on his pro day and he doesn't lose anything in pads. That's his asset - he's unbelievably fast. But he isn't a great route runner, his hands are suspect and and he "loses focus" when he's not getting the ball in the game (that's a direct quote). How is his game going to age when he loses half a step? I think that's a pretty big question mark.

Plus, there's only so much cash to go around. As such, the Steelers elected to sign Antonio Brown to a more cap-friendly contract when Wallace held out. There just isn't the dough to spend on both guys and Wallace proved what kind of team guy he was when he held out last year. He was within his rights, but that doesn't mean he wasn't an ass about it and he didn't come back ready to play. Plus, it could be argued that Brown has more value to the team as a WR and returner plus he runs better routes than Wallace (meaning him losing half a step isn't as big of a deal).

FYI, it isn't "owner collusion" - that's a rolleyes statement. NFL teams don't give up their 1st round pick AND pay players more than $10m a year unless it's for a starting quarterback. Wallace isn't a top 5 WR and arguably isn't even a top 10 guy with folks like Megatron, Andre Johnson, Victor Cruz, Roddy White, Brandon Marshall, Julio Jones, Vincent Jackson, Larry Fitzgerald, AJ Green and others running around. You don't give up a 1st round pick and blow your salary cap for a guy like that. Collusion? Hardly. The Steelers would have been overjoyed had somoene elected to give up their first for Wallace.

EDIT - Rumors had it that the Steelers were offered a 2nd rounder for Wallace last year. But they elected to hold on to him and make a run at the playoffs with Wallace rather than strip the WR corps for what amounts to a one-round improvement in draft position since they'll get a 3rd as a compensation pick for Wallace next year. It didn't work, but that was the gamble.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Percy Harvin will be easily the best playmaker on the Seahawks' IR.

[Buccaneer]

CBS says in their lead story; disgruntled, big play WR. Are there other kinds?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

CBS says in their lead story; disgruntled, big play WR. Are there other kinds?

Calvin Johnson. He's a big play receiver and he's rarely disgruntled. Don't hear too much from either Roddy White or Julio Jones. Given the poop QBs Larry Fitzgerald has had to suffer through the last couple of years, he's been a down right saint.

[stevew]

The Seahawks just gave up a #1 and will likely pay Harvin 10m+ . The Cruz thing will be interesting. Don't be so quick to dismiss collusion, especially if Victor Cruz doesn't get a serious offer.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Matthean

I guess the Vikings figure why waste money on a deep threat when you don't have the QB to throw to one.

Do need someone like Harvin who can gain yards off all the passes behind the line of scrimmage though.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Calvin Johnson. He's a big play receiver and he's rarely disgruntled. Don't hear too much from either Roddy White or Julio Jones. Given the poop QBs Larry Fitzgerald has had to suffer through the last couple of years, he's been a down right saint.

AJ Green is the anit-Ochocinco.

[Thomkal]

Some good news for the Redskins:

DeAngelo Hall released by cap-restricted Redskins - NFL - Sporting News

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Good? Yes. Undoubtedly he's good. Worth more than the 5yr/$50m contract the Steelers were offering? Very debatable. Wallace wasn't just a one-trick pony, but he's not too much more than that. In pads, he may be the fastest guy in the NFL - there aren't "plenty of guys" faster than Walalce. He ran a 4.33 at the combine, 4.28 on his pro day and he doesn't lose anything in pads. That's his asset - he's unbelievably fast. But he isn't a great route runner, his hands are suspect and and he "loses focus" when he's not getting the ball in the game (that's a direct quote). How is his game going to age when he loses half a step? I think that's a pretty big question mark.

Plus, there's only so much cash to go around. As such, the Steelers elected to sign Antonio Brown to a more cap-friendly contract when Wallace held out. There just isn't the dough to spend on both guys and Wallace proved what kind of team guy he was when he held out last year. He was within his rights, but that doesn't mean he wasn't an ass about it and he didn't come back ready to play. Plus, it could be argued that Brown has more value to the team as a WR and returner plus he runs better routes than Wallace (meaning him losing half a step isn't as big of a deal).

FYI, it isn't "owner collusion" - that's a rolleyes statement. NFL teams don't give up their 1st round pick AND pay players more than $10m a year unless it's for a starting quarterback. Wallace isn't a top 5 WR and arguably isn't even a top 10 guy with folks like Megatron, Andre Johnson, Victor Cruz, Roddy White, Brandon Marshall, Julio Jones, Vincent Jackson, Larry Fitzgerald, AJ Green and others running around. You don't give up a 1st round pick and blow your salary cap for a guy like that. Collusion? Hardly. The Steelers would have been overjoyed had somoene elected to give up their first for Wallace.

EDIT - Rumors had it that the Steelers were offered a 2nd rounder for Wallace last year. But they elected to hold on to him and make a run at the playoffs with Wallace rather than strip the WR corps for what amounts to a one-round improvement in draft position since they'll get a 3rd as a compensation pick for Wallace next year. It didn't work, but that was the gamble.

BTW, Percy Harvin just got traded for this. And before this, the trading for 1st rounder and a big new contract has happened many times (Jason Peters, John Abraham, etc etc).

[Abe Sargent]

Well, now the Vikes will hve an excuse ot keep a certain QB around even longer, since he had ot get accustomed to his new guys....

[Buccaneer]

Larry Fitzgerald is indeed a saint and one of my favorites. Too bad the other kind makes a lot of news and noise.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Too bad the other kind makes a lot of news and noise.

This is, without a doubt, true.

[Logan]

Ravens traded Boldin to the 49ers for a 6th round pick.

[DaddyTorgo]

Which of these scenarios is more likely?

a) There's leaguewide owner & GM collusion to underpay Mike Wallace because...why again?
b) Mike Wallace is not as good as certain fans think he is?

Occam's Razor

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Which of these scenarios is more likely?

a) There's leaguewide owner & GM collusion to underpay Mike Wallace because...why again?
b) Mike Wallace is not as good as certain fans think he is?
C) there is a league wide collusion to pay ANY RFAs.

Occam's Razor

fixed

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

fixed

Answer is still B.

Collusion is a hell of a lot more rare than people seem to think - especially when the penalty for it would be losing the anti-trust exemption...

[spleen1015]

Boldin traded to the 49ers.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...ldin-to-49ers/

[Vince, Pt. II]

It's so strange to see the 49ers making great personnel decisions and not be surprised.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Fuck! A 6th rounder? I really wanted Boldin to be a Lion.

[RedKingGold]

Love, love LOVE the Boldin trade. I thought he should've been the Super Bowl MVP. He'll be a perfect complement to Crabtree.

[Thomkal]

Geez my beloved Cards may need to use all their draft picks on cornerbacks and safeties given the trades today. Boldin coming back to face them twice a season will not be pleasant for them.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Answer is still B.

Collusion is a hell of a lot more rare than people seem to think - especially when the penalty for it would be losing the anti-trust exemption...

I think there's a chance that part of the answer is collusion, but I think it's a fairly small chance. The NFL has been known to do this before. But if you go after someone as a RFA:

1. You have to pay them big bucks.
2. You have to compensate the team with a substantial pick.
3. You have to spend all the time negotiating a deal that the other team can just then match. In other words, you do all the GM work and probably will get none of the benefit. That can be a considerable time investment during a period that you're also tasked with evaluating the draft class, resigning your own free agents and evaluating UFAs. There's only so many hours in a day.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

Fuck! A 6th rounder? I really wanted Boldin to be a Lion.

This feels like a sort of wink and a handshake between brothers. Flacco is going to be hurting without Boldin.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Answer is still B.

Collusion is a hell of a lot more rare than people seem to think - especially when the penalty for it would be losing the anti-trust exemption...

I think it's a more interesting argument than you're making it out to be. The NHL and NFL both have the potential for RFA offer sheets to be a major component of the player acquisition process. And yet, in recent history, there's only two I'm aware of, both in hockey: one was the massive offer sheet Shea Weber signed with Philly this past summer, and the other was just a couple weeks ago when Calgary signed Ryan O'Reilly...and that one was so weird that it actually had some people believing that Calgary did that expressly to help Colorado.

There are varying levels of compensation required to sign RFAs in the NFL...it seems at least a little suspicious that not a single one has been signed in the last two, going on three offseasons. And in 2010, there was one.

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by Matthean

This feels like a sort of wink and a handshake between brothers. Flacco is going to be hurting without Boldin.

I feel this as well. How the hell do you get only a 6th for Boldin?!

[bhlloy]

Dustin Penner says Hi. How could you forget the transaction that nearly led to the first ever barn fight between GM's in major sports history?

The NHL deal is blatant collusion. GMs have even said so on the record (Burke in the incident above) but nobody has ever called them on it.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Matthean

This feels like a sort of wink and a handshake between brothers. Flacco is going to be hurting without Boldin.

On the radio they were saying that Boldin was asked to take a pay cut by the Ravens so they could afford to keep him, and he refused. So they were going to cut him if they could not get anything back for him.

This deal was basically just to keep him from going to New England or Houston or some other AFC team that they would have to deal with.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Alan T

On the radio they were saying that Boldin was asked to take a pay cut by the Ravens so they could afford to keep him, and he refused. So they were going to cut him if they could not get anything back for him.

This deal was basically just to keep him from going to New England or Houston or some other AFC team that they would have to deal with.

Understandable, but a 6th round pick for the guy who has been your leading WR for the past three years is highly odd to me.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Alan T

On the radio they were saying that Boldin was asked to take a pay cut by the Ravens so they could afford to keep him, and he refused. So they were going to cut him if they could not get anything back for him.

This deal was basically just to keep him from going to New England or Houston or some other AFC team that they would have to deal with.

They wanted him to take $4MM instead of the $6MM he had coming to him. On the surface, it seems like not a lot of money to make it worth finding a replacement and hoping he can contribute.

But Ozzie Newsome is pretty damn smart.

I choose to just appreciate the value from the Niners standpoint, than to criticize the Ravens for ditching him.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by Logan

I think it's a more interesting argument than you're making it out to be. The NHL and NFL both have the potential for RFA offer sheets to be a major component of the player acquisition process. And yet, in recent history, there's only two I'm aware of, both in hockey: one was the massive offer sheet Shea Weber signed with Philly this past summer, and the other was just a couple weeks ago when Calgary signed Ryan O'Reilly...and that one was so weird that it actually had some people believing that Calgary did that expressly to help Colorado.

There are varying levels of compensation required to sign RFAs in the NFL...it seems at least a little suspicious that not a single one has been signed in the last two, going on three offseasons. And in 2010, there was one.

the oreilly one was set up to mess up the AVS cap.... 100% not a favor to them.

they should have not matched, and taken the risk on waivers.

[BillJasper]

If Kaepernick isn't a one-year wonder, the Niners just got damn scary.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Matthean

Understandable, but a 6th round pick for the guy who has been your leading WR for the past three years is highly odd to me.

Probably no different than moss for a 4th rounder roughly.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

I feel this as well. How the hell do you get only a 6th for Boldin?!

'Cause you don't get more for a 32 year old WR (33 by week 5) with little deep speed.

[Izulde]

I really hope Miami doesn't get Wallace.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

How the hell do you get only a 6th for Boldin?!

We've just got to get past this. It's not "Boldin." It's "Boldin at that cap hit." It's a game with a serious salary cap. He is arguably overpaid, even following some late-season heroics last year.

Baltimore said take a pay cut or take a walk. He dug in. They need the cap space pronto to re-up with other players, cutting/trading him helps a lot. Nobody's going to line up to pay a premium in picks so they cap pay a premium in cap space for this guy who might very well retire rather than play (though I doubt it now).

The cut was expected. A minor trade is some trivial icing on the cake for the Ravens. To complain that they didn't get enough isn't realistic.

I'm disappointed he won't be back with the Ravens, also, I wish they had worked it out. But I'm not appalled that they sold low.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Izulde

I really hope Miami doesn't get Wallace.

As a Dolphins fan, I second this.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Answer is still B.

Collusion is a hell of a lot more rare than people seem to think - especially when the penalty for it would be losing the anti-trust exemption...

On C, its absolutely true. Why haven't we seen a single poison pill since the Steve Hutchinson / Nate Burleson saga? Or the way the league punished the Redskins and the Cowboys for ignoring the "hint hint, nod nod" salary cap in the "UNCAPPED" year?

[Logan]

The poison pill stuff was banned by the league, so I don't think you can really call that collusion. But the uncapped year stuff was definitely some shady shit.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

We've just got to get past this. It's not "Boldin." It's "Boldin at that cap hit." It's a game with a serious salary cap. He is arguably overpaid, even following some late-season heroics last year.

Baltimore said take a pay cut or take a walk. He dug in. They need the cap space pronto to re-up with other players, cutting/trading him helps a lot. Nobody's going to line up to pay a premium in picks so they cap pay a premium in cap space for this guy who might very well retire rather than play (though I doubt it now).

The cut was expected. A minor trade is some trivial icing on the cake for the Ravens. To complain that they didn't get enough isn't realistic.

I'm disappointed he won't be back with the Ravens, also, I wish they had worked it out. But I'm not appalled that they sold low.

This. Also applies as to why Revis will not be traded for a bounty of picks.

[stevew]

You can still use a structure that would make an nearly capped out team struggle to match. The Giants are/were close to the cap. A team like, hell, the Vikings pick in the 20s and need a WR and probably have their usual 40million in free cap room. Any receiver the Vikings draft is probably not going to be anywhere near as good as Cruz for at least the next year or two. Seems like the Vikings making a play for Cruz is something that should happen, but likely will never happen.

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

We've just got to get past this. It's not "Boldin." It's "Boldin at that cap hit." It's a game with a serious salary cap. He is arguably overpaid, even following some late-season heroics last year.

Baltimore said take a pay cut or take a walk. He dug in. They need the cap space pronto to re-up with other players, cutting/trading him helps a lot. Nobody's going to line up to pay a premium in picks so they cap pay a premium in cap space for this guy who might very well retire rather than play (though I doubt it now).

The cut was expected. A minor trade is some trivial icing on the cake for the Ravens. To complain that they didn't get enough isn't realistic.

I'm disappointed he won't be back with the Ravens, also, I wish they had worked it out. But I'm not appalled that they sold low.

I understand that. We had the same issue with Lee Evans here in Buffalo and was able to ship him to Baltimore for at least a 3rd.

I am just saying I think they could have gotten at least a 3rd for him and they pulled the trigger because they honestly didn't feel like shopping him around.

[Logan]

Vikings offered a 7th so he was shopped at least a bit.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

'Cause you don't get more for a 32 year old WR (33 by week 5) with little deep speed.

A large number of his key catches were more about his size.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Boldin isn't fast. He isn't flashy. He just goes out there and beats motherfuckers.

That is a guy I want on my team every day.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Love, love LOVE the Boldin trade. I thought he should've been the Super Bowl MVP. He'll be a perfect complement to Crabtree.

Very happy when I heard they pulled this off for only a 6th.

[mckerney]

Harvin traded for being a good judge of talent.

Sources: Percy Harvin's lack of confidence in Christian Ponder was final straw for Vikings - Yahoo! Sports

[QuikSand]

I think the Browns, or possibly the Bengals, ought to go out and sign RB Beanie Wells. I'm not suggesting he's anything special as a ball carrier, but I do think it would be pretty good PR.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

We've just got to get past this. It's not "Boldin." It's "Boldin at that cap hit." It's a game with a serious salary cap. He is arguably overpaid, even following some late-season heroics last year.

The cut was expected. A minor trade is some trivial icing on the cake for the Ravens. To complain that they didn't get enough isn't realistic.

I love the unrealistic expectations on team message boards this time of year. Every team has veteran players on the downside who are entering the way-too-expensive years of their contracts. And the fans understand this and say thing like "[Player X] is past his prime. He's too expensive. He's got the 2nd highest cap number on the team. We've got to get rid of him. He hasn't been good in 2 years anyway. etc." And then, in almost the next breath, start saying things like "Let's trade him for a 2nd and 3rd round pick" or "Put him in a package with some mid-round picks for Revis" or things of that nature.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I think the Browns, or possibly the Bengals, ought to go out and sign RB Beanie Wells. I'm not suggesting he's anything special as a ball carrier, but I do think it would be pretty good PR.

I wouldn't mind Beanie on the Bengals, but it would create a roster problem. They'll keep BJGE and they just resigned Peerman because of his special teams ability. I doubt they carry four RBs again this year, so it would be Beanie or a draft choice and I'd probably prefer they get some youth at RB.

[Thomkal]

Edit: Saw the posts above on Wells, was just commenting on it rather than looking like I was seeing it for the first time

Looks like my beloved Cards cut RB Beanie Wells yesterday. That leaves the even more injury prone Ryan Williams as the #1 RB right now. Not too sad to see Wells go given you just couldn't rely on him to stay on the field for a long period of time...which if I remember correctly was the concern when he was drafted. Cards are said to be interested in signing Reggie Bush or Rashard Mendenhall. I hope they learned their lesson about injured RB's here and don't go for Mendenhall.

Might be some movement on Kevin Kolb in the next week or two-either a pay-cut restructured contract or being released. Personally I hope they keep Kolb for now because releasing him likely means they are going to take QB Geno Smith in the first round of the draft. Worried if they do because none of the "experts" seem to think that highly of him, just the best of a weak QB class.