Werewolf LVI: Beneath the Iron Cross - GAME OVER, VILLAGERS WIN!

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Respect is earned, not offered. I respect people that show some sense of thought when given various pieces of information.

It's pretty simple to make your arguments without swearing or insults. Try it. Also, try reading the posts for the thoughts they've put out there, rather than assuming they're not thinking at all.

[Passacaglia]

And if you're not going to respect people playing the game from the start, you really shouldn't be playing.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

BK is in my CoT...doesn't that tell you something???

Nothing like being cryptic with a huge pice of information there Olie.

Ok, so based on this BK should be ok, so now we're back to me.

Fuckit, lynch me you idiots.

waste another fucking day.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

And if you're not going to respect people playing the game from the start, you really shouldn't be playing.

Perhaps you ought to just stay out of it pass. I'm done, the peanut galery is going to lynch me anyway, they can't find another target worthwhile beyond a wolf's insinuation.

So I'm done. Lynch me, vote render and vote nightfall. Whatever it takes.

Then when I come up villager perhaps you'll actually think beyond what you're spoon fed by the lead wolf net time.

[RendeR]

UNVOTE BARKEEP

[RendeR]

And the worst part of it is NONE of you, NOT ONE of you has a real god damned reason beyond hoops fingering me to even BEGIN thinking I'm a wolf.

And pass, just to respond a little more clearly to your "swearing and insults" line: if i were just a wolf trying to cover my ass would I get THIS pissed off that I alienate everyone else on here? not fucking likely.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by RendeR

And the worst part of it is NONE of you, NOT ONE of you has a real god damned reason beyond hoops fingering me to even BEGIN thinking I'm a wolf.

And pass, just to respond a little more clearly to your "swearing and insults" line: if i were just a wolf trying to cover my ass would I get THIS pissed off that I alienate everyone else on here? not fucking likely.

I'm not playing the game, so I don't care if you're a wolf. All I care about is that you're ruining the friendly environment that we all like to play in. Stop.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by RendeR

And the worst part of it is NONE of you, NOT ONE of you has a real god damned reason beyond hoops fingering me to even BEGIN thinking I'm a wolf.

And pass, just to respond a little more clearly to your "swearing and insults" line: if i were just a wolf trying to cover my ass would I get THIS pissed off that I alienate everyone else on here? not fucking likely.

Ok, I'll bite. You just unvoted barkeep. So who are you looking at, and why?

Like I said, I do have a reason for voting for you. Your Day One statement about being quiet and then your incorrect explanation of it. May not be much, but looking at what's out there, we don't have much.

[ntndeacon]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

Okay, seriously, we have to look at this whole situation. One thing is still bothering me, so I will repeat it again. Did our seer really get killed off earlier in the game or was it a fool? I am telling you that hoopsguy's actions made no sense so let's think about this.

ntndeacon says hoopsguy is a wolf. Instead of defending himself and telling everyone it is a mistake, he easily goes along with the ploy and we soon discover he really is a wolf. Why give up that easy? Unless, of course, he was simply a sacrifice and wanted to make a fellow wolf look good. With all the crazy theories he was spitting out, he never once mentioned ntndeacon and I couldn't figure out why and ntndeacon has been missing for quite some time since he exposed hoopsguy.

Now I am not 100% sure on this theory, but those actions made little sense to me and it was also odd that no one came to his aide or tried to cast looks the other way. So this leads me to believe he tried to sacrifice himself well before Eaglefan was put out by ArlingtonColt, which was frankly amazing. So are we down to one wolf or more? And is it possible he sacrificed himself thinking that Eaglefan was going to get his nightly meals?

I actually was waiting for someone to make that suggestion about someone making a fake witness call in the future. I can think of a couple of scenarios where that could be used. The only problem is the possibility of being outed by a real witness. To me a witness needs to use his power early. therefore there is a dead wolf early and before the witness gets eaten.

[RealDeal]

I get suspicious anytime I see someone moralizing in a WW game. I know in one of the games that blade and I had a run-in that my most vocal critics ended up being wolves.

I'd be mad too if I were Render. Getting lynched is one thing, having people suspect you more or less solely on the basis of what an outed wolf said would make me nuts.

[path12]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

Of the Possible Villager roles, I know of 3...BK, myself and NTN. That leaves the Fool, The Psychic Siblings, the Psycopath, and the Angel as possible roles still out there.

Judging by the fact there was no kill that one night, I don't believe that the Psychopath or the Angel are in the game. I also wonder about the siblings, but I guess that could be there. As mentioned earlier, I do think the Fool role is in play.

What concerns me is this: Looking over the possible wolf roles, Eaglefan was the Brutal. That leaves Wolfling, Wolfshade and Cultist. I believe all of these scan as villager, two of them come up villager even after death, which is going to make it tough for us.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

I get suspicious anytime I see someone moralizing in a WW game. I know in one of the games that blade and I had a run-in that my most vocal critics ended up being wolves.

I'd be mad too if I were Render. Getting lynched is one thing, having people suspect you more or less solely on the basis of what an outed wolf said would make me nuts.

Don't worry, I'm already dead -- no need to lynch me again!

It's one thing to get mad -- but everyone here deserves respect.

Anyway, play on.

[saldana]

vote antmeister

[saldana]

based upon his hit and run vote, and some bad vibes i am getting from that post that NTN quoted above.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

I get suspicious anytime I see someone moralizing in a WW game. I know in one of the games that blade and I had a run-in that my most vocal critics ended up being wolves.

I'd be mad too if I were Render. Getting lynched is one thing, having people suspect you more or less solely on the basis of what an outed wolf said would make me nuts.

My possible vote for RendeR is maybe weighted 50% on the vibe I got from him Day 1, 25% on his Day One vote (with Wolf Eagle Fan and others for Villager St. Cronin) and 25% on what hoops said. I agree that blindly going on

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

I actually was waiting for someone to make that suggestion about someone making a fake witness call in the future. I can think of a couple of scenarios where that could be used. The only problem is the possibility of being outed by a real witness. To me a witness needs to use his power early. therefore there is a dead wolf early and before the witness gets eaten.

NTN is the witness, I scanned him to confirm it.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by path12

Judging by the fact there was no kill that one night, I don't believe that the Psychopath or the Angel are in the game.

i agree path, there would have been a night with 2 kills if they were...the odds that the angel would have successfully saved us 3 times are astronomical

[ntndeacon]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

And that is where I had messed up. I keep saying that ntn is a seer, but I am actually meaning witness. Can we truly believe 100% that he had a one shot chance and guessed hoopsguy correctly and are we just assuming that this role is in play this game. Please, if someone is a witness, seer or fool, let us know. Well actually if you are a seer, only tell us if you have found a wolf.

But Ant, I did not guess hoopsguy. That is not how the role of Witness works in this ruleset. the witness tells Neon that he wants to see the killing.

[RealDeal]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

My possible vote for RendeR is maybe weighted 50% on the vibe I got from him Day 1, 25% on his Day One vote (with Wolf Eagle Fan and others for Villager St. Cronin) and 25% on what hoops said. I agree that blindly going on

The vibe part is fine, that's all we have to go on anyway. I haven't played in a while, so I'm not familiar with people's normal styles.

As far as the Day 1 vote, wasn't that a villager vs. villager situation (cronin vs. AC-the duke)? So i'm not sure if you can read a lot from that.

We got to lynch someone, so maybe Render is as good as anyone, but I just hate taking faulty information, and then spinning off multiple false conclusions from it.

To me, barring a further reveal, this is basically a day 1 vote, except there's a few confirmed good guys we can exclude.

[path12]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I'm using what hoops SAID in the same reference path, you can't TRUST hoops, so obviously the act that he said he WOULDN"T select BK should be suspicious? no?


yeesh.

In light of Oliegirl's information, it appears hoops was telling the truth there, doesn't it?

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

But Ant, I did not guess hoopsguy. That is not how the role of Witness works in this ruleset. the witness tells Neon that he wants to see the killing.

ntndeacon, read on. I misinterpreted the rule in regards to a witness. So you are just fine. And oliegirl just cleared you.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

The vibe part is fine, that's all we have to go on anyway. I haven't played in a while, so I'm not familiar with people's normal styles.

As far as the Day 1 vote, wasn't that a villager vs. villager situation (cronin vs. AC-the duke)? So i'm not sure if you can read a lot from that.

We got to lynch someone, so maybe Render is as good as anyone, but I just hate taking faulty information, and then spinning off multiple false conclusions from it.

To me, barring a further reveal, this is basically a day 1 vote, except there's a few confirmed good guys we can exclude.

Day One was a villager vs villager, but wouldn't wolves want to at least somewhat stick together? I know hoops is split from them, but maybe that was the plan. Hoops votes differently on purpose since it's v-v vote, knows he'll make the night kill and likely get witnessed. Then we luck into catching EF as a wolf which gives us a tidbit of more info.

Just a thought, far from confident in it.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by saldana

based upon his hit and run vote, and some bad vibes i am getting from that post that NTN quoted above.

Huh? What hit and run vote? Are you talking about my vote for PurdueBrad that I stuck with and hoopsguy tried to call me out on earlier in the game. Wasn't much of a hit and run if I responded.

[ntndeacon]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

ntndeacon, read on. I misinterpreted the rule in regards to a witness. So you are just fine. And oliegirl just cleared you.

Yea I eventually got caught up.

[path12]

The best reason I can see voting RendeR is to assume he was scanned last night. If the seer/fool isn't sure of their role, they might be able to get some help by the result of his lynch, and worst case we lose a non-role villager.

Though if he came up wolf I'd assume the seer would come out with it. If he came up villager he's either a roled wolf or innocent, in which case nothing would be learned.

[path12]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

Day One was a villager vs villager, but wouldn't wolves want to at least somewhat stick together? I know hoops is split from them, but maybe that was the plan. Hoops votes differently on purpose since it's v-v vote, knows he'll make the night kill and likely get witnessed. Then we luck into catching EF as a wolf which gives us a tidbit of more info.

I think usually you'll find that wolves try to spread their votes out in a villager/villager vote, especially early.

I dunno, I'm just as likely to revisit my list of who hoops might be likely to pick for my vote today. It does feel like day 1 all over again, even with two wolves down.

[ArlingtonColt]

Im ready to be swayed 1 way or another... i keep going back and forth. I'm willing to go with the majority on this one...but I kinda wanna see if Hoops lived up to his side of the bargain with me and I think there is something to the eaglefan comment in the other thread.

[Barkeep49]

Wow. I wish I had been around more today.

Render: You said there was no reason for anyone to think you're a wolf except that hoops said so. You're right. There's not. Just as there was no reason for anyone to think hoops was a wolf except NTN said so. Fact is hoops did say so.

To me killing you is right in the same way that your killing me last game was the right decision (even though I was what I said I was). Having me around another day in the last game would have been a distraction. Having you around now is a distraction. I trust hoops to have played the game out the way he said he would. I would point out that according to game theory in a situation of repeated games players are more likely to be honest (I can explain this more if people don't understand).

So yes I'm going to vote for you. You're a distraction. If you're a villager, I'm sorry that hoops screwed you over. Vote him Day 1 for now until eternity. But if you're around, and a villager, it's going to be harder for us to focus on other people to find the wolves. Already your being around has forced ollie to do a reveal, and with the herbalist out of the way we might now lose any more information there.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by path12

The best reason I can see voting RendeR is to assume he was scanned last night. If the seer/fool isn't sure of their role, they might be able to get some help by the result of his lynch, and worst case we lose a non-role villager.

Very true. I hadn't thought about that.

Though if he came up wolf I'd assume the seer would come out with it. If he came up villager he's either a roled wolf or innocent, in which case nothing would be learned.

I'm guessing, especially with the herbalist out of the way, that the seer, if he knows he's a seer, is trying to avoid revealing. I would hope that if they know REnder is a wolf that they'd reveal later in the day with time for us to adjust.

[Barkeep49]

VOTE Render

[ArlingtonColt]

VOTE RendeR

[jeheinz72]

1. path12
3. saldana
5. ArlingtonColt
7. RendeR
8. jeheinz72
9. oliegirl
11. Antmeister
12. Chief Rum
14. RealDeal
15. ntndeacon
16. Barkeep49

So that's who is left. We can take out AC, Olie, BK and NTN, as in all likelihood their roles are all true. That leaves:

1. path12
3. saldana
7. RendeR
8. jeheinz72
11. Antmeister
12. Chief Rum
14. RealDeal

Which gives us each a 1/6 shot (if on the list) or a 1/7 shot, if we just threw a dart. I'm not seeing how anyone of the above 7 is a more worthwhile shot than going RendeR at this point.

I'll echo BK's point. If hoops screwed ya and you're a villager, that's a bummer and I'd Day One vote him for awhile. At least us villagers could move onto unearthing whatever miniature clue we have on the other 6 people left on that list.

[ArlingtonColt]

I also remember reading that Hoops wolf reveal would come out pissed off fighting... which matches what RendeR is doing... although I'm not sure I wouldn't do the same thing (with less profanity)

So... RendeR who do you propose we change our votes too? What evidence have you seen? BK in my mind has been cleared... My CoT = Myself, Olie, BK, NTN

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

I get suspicious anytime I see someone moralizing in a WW game. I know in one of the games that blade and I had a run-in that my most vocal critics ended up being wolves.

I'd be mad too if I were Render. Getting lynched is one thing, having people suspect you more or less solely on the basis of what an outed wolf said would make me nuts.

Just wanted to touch on this point for a moment. There is a reason that I use the signature and separate color, otherwise not used in games, when I'm posting in my mod role. I want to separate what I am saying in the game from what I'm saying as a mod.

That said, I appreciate the fact that we're self policing to a large extent and it's not very often that I have to intervene in any way. But I do understand that sometimes this can come off the wrong way, which is why I am paid the big bucks. If you have problems you're always welcome to contact me.

Keeping the games civil is often our largest challenge, because what makes the game great, its intensity, is also what can make it maddening. I think many of us let our passions sometimes cross the line, but I do appreciate people working hard to stay on the right side of the line, keeping the intensity without making it personal. The people who play here are the reason why it's great to play here, when there are many other online options for WW.

~Barkeep49, Your Friendly Werewolf Moderator

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

1. path12

1. path12
3. saldana
7. RendeR
8. jeheinz72
11. Antmeister
12. Chief Rum
14. RealDeal

This is a great list going forward. I keep vacillating on whether we have 1 or 2 wolves left but I see no reason, for the near future, of going away from this list.

[oliegirl]

VOTE ANTMEISTER

[RealDeal]

I've blown up twice in WW games. Once was the infamous game with blade where I felt like, in conjunction with his actions in a couple of other games, he was intentionally playing half-ass or trying to screw up his own team. I probably was wrong about that after seeing more and more of blade's style, but I don't really feel that bad about it even now.

The other time I blew up was when I revealed myself on Day 1 in the WW40k game as a villager who could not be wolf killed, and the villagers lynched me day 1. It still angers me to think about it, because it was such a horrible play. I don't really feel bad about that one either, in retrospect. If people are playing that badly, they should be screamed at a little.

IMO, if you just get mad simply because someone thinks you're a wolf, then it's inappropriate. If you are angry because villagers seem to be purposely sabotaging the team effort or playing in an utterly incompetent manner, I'm all for it.

To me, the most memorable games in WW history are some of the ones where there were some fireworks. I enjoy the spectacle of it. But I'm the type of guy who enjoys brawls in baseball and basketball, and ostentacious endzone celebrations in football, too.

[ArlingtonColt]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

VOTE ANTMEISTER

What did your scan turn up?

[path12]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

The other time I blew up was when I revealed myself on Day 1 in the WW40k game as a villager who could not be wolf killed, and the villagers lynched me day 1. It still angers me to think about it, because it was such a horrible play. I don't really feel bad about that one either, in retrospect. If people are playing that badly, they should be screamed at a little.

I remember that. Classic meltdown. I woulda been pissed too, even though I think I was one of the people who voted for you then.....

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by ArlingtonColt

What did your scan turn up?

He came back as Villager...which means one of two things:

He's an unroled villager, or he's a wolf.

I am just not comfortable voting for someone based off of Hoops accusation...I think that is a bad path to go down.

If there is a bodyguard still out there, I hope he protects me tonight b/c I'm sure I'll be a target.

[path12]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

If there is a bodyguard still out there, I hope he protects me tonight b/c I'm sure I'll be a target.

I don't think there is since DaddyTorgo got killed last night. I can't think there are two Herbalists in the game.

[RealDeal]

At this point, I'm going to vote for Antmeister. I don't feel strongly about it, but it appears that Ant and Render are kind of becoming the leading choices right now, and I did remember Ant playing and voting strangely on Day 1. The only thing on Render is that Hoops said he was a wolf.

I cannot bring myself to vote for Render at this point simply because, if he is a villager, I don't want to see 2 more pages after the game is over of Hoops bragging about how brilliant he is for being a revealed wolf and getting a villager killed. If Render is a wolf, we'll get him eventually, but I'm not going to let Hoops dupe me.

I don't have the info to make a really smart play this turn, but I'm definitely going to avoid a really dumb play.

[RealDeal]

VOTE ANTMEISTER

[Antmeister]

Vote Render

[oliegirl]

I don't think there is since DaddyTorgo got killed last night. I can't think there are two Herbalists in the game.

Ugh

[oliegirl]

OOps! I totally forgot about the no editing rule in ww...I meant to quote Path in my post that says "ugh" but forgot and then went back and added it in...SORRY!!!!!

[Antmeister]

Don't understand my strange voting? Let's see Passcaglia, st.cronin and I voted for the same person and 2 of us are dead villagers. I just don't waver on my votes if there is not strong evidence for me to do otherwise. How is that strange? Did the same thing for the next vote as well, although that was much easier.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

I cannot bring myself to vote for Render at this point simply because, if he is a villager, I don't want to see 2 more pages after the game is over of Hoops bragging about how brilliant he is for being a revealed wolf and getting a villager killed. If Render is a wolf, we'll get him eventually, but I'm not going to let Hoops dupe me.

So you'd rather have two pages of Render bragging about how hoops told us he was a wolf and we let him live?

Render is the one around now. He's a distraction now. Hoops put forth a perfectly valid plan to keep him around another day, so we could know about Render, and it was a bad plan because hoops was a distraction. He distracted us yesterday from finding wolves. Everyday Render is around he will be a focal point of attention unless we have a confirmed seer who can clear him.

And, as path pointed out, one of the ways we'll know that we have a real seer, or a fool, (which should be a priority for us) is to have Render dead giving the seer/fool yet another opportunity, in case they didn't think about it with hoops, to find out about their abilities. If Render's a villager we won't know for sure about the seer/wolf, but we will know if he's a wolf.

To me we're going to have a high probability of someone gloating after the game. Hell that's part of the fun, is being able to take pride in the times you got the difficult decisions right. So the question is what helps the village the most right now? I think that's getting our distraction out of the way. It's why I'm voting for Render and I hope you'd consider changing your mind and helping to vote for him as well.

[hoopsguy]

Fun to see this many folks (9 members + 1 guest) in the thread mid-day.

[Barkeep49]

Can I also ask where CR has been? I thought Wednesdays and Thursdays were the days he's around.